Which of the loyalist chapters from the first founding are the most likely to turn heretic?

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**ShieldBrother**

Why is there already traitors on the poll?

In all seriousness, it really would be Dark Angels. Many believe SW are already heretics but they're too loyal to turn now. The same goes for the rest of the chapters, especially the like of BA and Salamanders who had their primarchs killed by chaos. They are simply too zealous to be turncoats.

As for why Dark Angels, the current chapter master believes they aren't but when Lion wakes up we'll know the truth, and I'm willing to believe if he said their allegiance was with chaos, 99% of the chapter and it's successors would listen to him.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarsNZ wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
MarsNZ wrote:
pm713 wrote:
MarsNZ wrote:
BA or SW. Foul mutant deviants all.

Doesn't really make them heretics both are pretty loyal.

So were the Thousand Sons. Mutation is a capital crime in the Imperium whether you're intentionally a mutant or not.

And yet Sanguinius, with his obvious mutation, is the only primarch to be named a saint by the Ecclesiarchy.

And Horus was made warmaster. The fact that Sanguinius is a saint goes against everything the Emperor wished in the first place.

What about ogryns? Ratlings? The black dragon chapter? (The one with the arm mutations) the Imperium likes to be a cherry picker when it comes to mutants. You might be playing the purge the mutant card a little too hard here bud.

And on the topic of Sanguinius, if it goes against everything the Emperor wished why wasn't he killed on the spot? Out casted, anything. We all know the Emperor is willing to lose a couple primarchs.

**pm713**

#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Why is there already traitors on the poll?

In all seriousness, it really would be Dark Angels. Many believe SW are already heretics but they're too loyal to turn now. The same goes for the rest of the chapters, especially the like of BA and Salamanders who had their primarchs killed by chaos. They are simply too zealous to be turncoats.

As for why Dark Angels, the current chapter master believes they aren't but when Lion wakes up we'll know the truth, and I'm willing to believe if he said their allegiance was with chaos, 99% of the chapter and it's successors would listen to him.
.

That isn't true anymore I'm afraid.

As for the "cherry picking mutants" thing it really varies among people in the Imperium. Some are fine with things like Black Dragons and some want to kill ALL Space Marines and Navigators.

**Nevelon**

There is also a difference between mutants and abhumans. Abhumans breed true; they are a stable sub-species. So a Ogryn family will produce little ogryns. Mutants just pop up wherever.

Black Dragons and their ilk are not mutants. They have a known flaw in their geneseed. Not random.

**ShieldBrother**

pm713 wrote:
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Why is there already traitors on the poll?

In all seriousness, it really would be Dark Angels. Many believe SW are already heretics but they're too loyal to turn now. The same goes for the rest of the chapters, especially the like of BA and Salamanders who had their primarchs killed by chaos. They are simply too zealous to be turncoats.

As for why Dark Angels, the current chapter master believes they aren't but when Lion wakes up we'll know the truth, and I'm willing to believe if he said their allegiance was with chaos, 99% of the chapter and it's successors would listen to him.
.

That isn't true anymore I'm afraid.

As for the "cherry picking mutants" thing it really varies among people in the Imperium. Some are fine with things like Black Dragons and some want to kill ALL Space Marines and Navigators.

I'd like to see them try and fly their shop without a navigator

And which part are you saying isn't true? I talk about a couple different things in my post.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Dark Angels by a country mile. They already had half their chapter turn traitor.

Space Wolves I can see as traitors, but only because of Imperial Bureaucracy. They'd likely get labeled as traitors before out and out declaring war against the Imperium. Same goes for the Blood Angels. But in both cases it'd be less "they went evil" and more "the imperium called them traitors unjustly".

The rest of them don't really have any motivation for going against the imperium nor do they have anything that would cause the inquisition to single them out.

**pm713**

#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
pm713 wrote:
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Why is there already traitors on the poll?

In all seriousness, it really would be Dark Angels. Many believe SW are already heretics but they're too loyal to turn now. The same goes for the rest of the chapters, especially the like of BA and Salamanders who had their primarchs killed by chaos. They are simply too zealous to be turncoats.

As for why Dark Angels, the current chapter master believes they aren't but when Lion wakes up we'll know the truth, and I'm willing to believe if he said their allegiance was with chaos, 99% of the chapter and it's successors would listen to him.
.

That isn't true anymore I'm afraid.

As for the "cherry picking mutants" thing it really varies among people in the Imperium. Some are fine with things like Black Dragons and some want to kill ALL Space Marines and Navigators.

I'd like to see them try and fly their shop without a navigator

And which part are you saying isn't true? I talk about a couple different things in my post.

The Lion being traitor.

Clearly below light speed travel that takes centuries to perform if you don't get lost is the superior method.

**endlesswaltz123**

Space Wolves. They seem to be the most volatile and unstable chapter emotionally, that's just prize picking for daemons and their whispering.

The whole space wolves strike cruiser that instantly turned to the dark side when they realised they lost was also interesting, a strong self preservative flow is in them, which is unsurprising as they are the mist primal of the loyalist chapters. Just like a wolf will do anything to endure, so will they.

**Melissia**

Controversial idea: Ultramarines, because their pride and prestige gets to their head just like with the Lunar Wolves and their primarch.

**ShieldBrother**

pm713 wrote:
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
pm713 wrote:
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Why is there already traitors on the poll?

In all seriousness, it really would be Dark Angels. Many believe SW are already heretics but they're too loyal to turn now. The same goes for the rest of the chapters, especially the like of BA and Salamanders who had their primarchs killed by chaos. They are simply too zealous to be turncoats.

As for why Dark Angels, the current chapter master believes they aren't but when Lion wakes up we'll know the truth, and I'm willing to believe if he said their allegiance was with chaos, 99% of the chapter and it's successors would listen to him.
.

That isn't true anymore I'm afraid.

As for the "cherry picking mutants" thing it really varies among people in the Imperium. Some are fine with things like Black Dragons and some want to kill ALL Space Marines and Navigators.

I'd like to see them try and fly their shop without a navigator

And which part are you saying isn't true? I talk about a couple different things in my post.

The Lion being traitor.

Clearly below light speed travel that takes centuries to perform if you don't get lost is the superior method.

Ah, I wasn't saying he was, more hypothetically speaking. Who knows? Could pull a horus and be disgusted at what the Emperor is now. Plus itd be funny for the Dark Angels become traitors

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
PourSpelur wrote:
Ultramarines. They're so fully Mary Sue that hubris will eventually convince them they are the only thing that can save the Imperium. When they fail, they'll fall hard. Not into Chaos worshippers but definitely heretics.

That sounds a lot more like the Space Wolves to me.

Only one has been described as what all Astartes aspire to be.

except that statement is meaningless for two reasons (three if you include "is Wardian Hyperbole and thus to be eye rolled at and promptly ignored)

1st of all, the statement is a generic statement, it does not nesscarily mean that the Ultramarines see themselves that way. 2: there's no real Hubris here. The Ultramarines proably do belive that as the Chapter of Gulliman they have a responsability to be the examplar of the Codex Astartes, but that's not blind hubris so much as it's "I'm the oldest son, I need to set an example for my little brothers" that kinda mentality is more likely to keep you on the straight and narrow. and that's the thing the Ultramarines cleave hard to the rules, so they're not likely to (unless there is a fundamental flaw with the codex Astartes, which there is zero evidance to date of) fall to Chaos.

I agree that the statement sounds MUCH more like the Space Wolves, a chapter so convinced of their own rightousness that they thumb their nose at the rules whenever they please. but hey let's not let facts get in the way of the 5th edition inspired sour grapes Ultramarine hate fest eh?

Let's not stop wild exaggeration of what Space Wolves do either.

How is it wild exageration? the space wolves DO thumb their nose at authority, they DO belive they know better then anyone else and will do what they will no matter what. we've seen it from them on several high profile occasions. the month of shame was precipated by the Space Wolves, self rightously deciding they knew better about how to handle Chaos then an orginization devoted to that case.
and then the Wulfen fiasco has them welcoming into their ranks highly mutated individuals, irregardless of the cost to other worlds in the Imperium.

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
PourSpelur wrote:
Ultramarines. They're so fully Mary Sue that hubris will eventually convince them they are the only thing that can save the Imperium. When they fail, they'll fall hard. Not into Chaos worshippers but definitely heretics.

That sounds a lot more like the Space Wolves to me.

Only one has been described as what all Astartes aspire to be.

except that statement is meaningless for two reasons (three if you include "is Wardian Hyperbole and thus to be eye rolled at and promptly ignored)

1st of all, the statement is a generic statement, it does not nesscarily mean that the Ultramarines see themselves that way. 2: there's no real Hubris here. The Ultramarines proably do belive that as the Chapter of Gulliman they have a responsability to be the examplar of the Codex Astartes, but that's not blind hubris so much as it's "I'm the oldest son, I need to set an example for my little brothers" that kinda mentality is more likely to keep you on the straight and narrow. and that's the thing the Ultramarines cleave hard to the rules, so they're not likely to (unless there is a fundamental flaw with the codex Astartes, which there is zero evidance to date of) fall to Chaos.

I agree that the statement sounds MUCH more like the Space Wolves, a chapter so convinced of their own rightousness that they thumb their nose at the rules whenever they please. but hey let's not let facts get in the way of the 5th edition inspired sour grapes Ultramarine hate fest eh?

Let's not stop wild exaggeration of what Space Wolves do either.

How is it wild exageration? the space wolves DO thumb their nose at authority, they DO believe they know better then anyone else and will do what they will no matter what. we've seen it from them on several high profile occasions. the month of shame was precipated by the Space Wolves, self rightously deciding they knew better about how to handle Chaos then an orginisation devoted to that case.
and then the Wulfen fiasco has them welcoming into their ranks highly mutated individuals, irregardless of the cost to other worlds in the Imperium.

Wulfen part = Not true. Unless you call some people considering killing them welcoming.
Months of Shame bit = Also not true. They didn't claim that. What happened was the result of the Inqusition making a deal then immediately going back on it because their leader was not good at his job. The Space Wolves have experience of dealing with a planet wide Chaos incursion. The head inqusitor in question did not. If you want to talk about them as overall organisations then the Space Wolves have been fighting Chaos since before the Inqusition existed.

Source for them believing they're better than everyone? Source for the disobeying authority with any frequency outside a few rare instances?

**BrianDavion**

there was no deal made, the space wolves just randomly insisted that the inqusition do what they claim. all the while begging for their help

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
there was no deal made, the space wolves just randomly insisted that the inqusition do what they claim. all the while begging for their help

Not really. At no point was the Inqusition requested to appear. The Grey Knights are a separate entity entirely.

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
there was no deal made, the space wolves just randomly insisted that the inqusition do what they claim. all the while begging for their help

Not really. At no point was the Inqusition requested to appear. The Grey Knights are a separate entity entirely.

when the novel was written that wasn't the case. the fact is that the space wolves KNEW what the IoM did in cases like that. and simply belived they could just bluster and demand otherwise. and to hell with the concequences.

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
there was no deal made, the space wolves just randomly insisted that the inqusition do what they claim. all the while begging for their help

Not really. At no point was the Inqusition requested to appear. The Grey Knights are a separate entity entirely.

when the novel was written that wasn't the case. the fact is that the space wolves KNEW what the IoM did in cases like that. and simply belived they could just bluster and demand otherwise. and to hell with the concequences.

No. They deliberately kept most people away to prevent daemonic corruption and informed the Inquisition of this. Second it's fairly obvious that they don't do that with every planet that sees Chaos otherwise Cadians wouldn't exist.

**General Kroll**

Did that dude ever come back in to back up his outrageous claims about the Ultramarines 3rd company?

**BrianDavion**

General Kroll wrote:
Did that dude ever come back in to back up his outrageous claims about the Ultramarines 3rd company?

not that I saw.

**JohnHwangDD**

Dark Angels are Chaos, but pretend to be Loyal.

**Jayden63**

I can't see the space wolves going heretic. They are far too loyal to the imperium and more importantly, its people. They don't fight for increased power as a faction. Sure, individual heroics are important to them, but what good is it if you do something totally bad ass and nobody knows about it.

Now I could easily see them going rogue. Finally telling the HLOT to go stuff it and secede away. But they won't actively fight against the imperium unless they give them reason too.

**Brennonjw**

Dark Angels ('cause half did)
White Scars ('cause roughly half were about to)
Space Wolves ('cause Russ was a dick like that)
Ultramarines ('cause Guilliman basically let Big E die, lollygagged in actually helping so he had the most sway (power wise), and a much longer speil I've worked up

)

Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Salamanders, "Alpha Legion" woudn't really go traitor for various reasons (and AL was split anyways)

even on the traitor side, many of them went rogue, but not 'heretic' 'till the last minute or by force: Thousand Sons and Death Guard we're tricked/backed into a wall to go chaos. Iron warriors, Alpha Legion, and Night Lords didn't really go chaos 'till after the HH, and even then it was only half-heartedly.

**Xathrodox86**

I'd say that Blood Angels and their flaw makes them extremly prone to Khorne worship.

**Brennonjw**

Xathrodox86 wrote:
I'd say that Blood Angels and their flaw makes them extremly prone to Khorne worship.

Yeah, but another common factors was how Sanguinius was uber loyal to the emperor, which kinda plays into that whole "go renegade" factor