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 MrDwhitey wrote:
To be fair, MLK actually wanted change and to be seen as equal.

But he argued for diplomacy, that the white man is not the enemy, but must be shown reason and compassion.

Yes, because he actually wanted change and to be seen as an equal.

That's the point. He actually wanted change and to be seen as an equal.

For some people this needs to be repeated a lot. (that's not aimed at you)

SemperMortis wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:
Allowing cops in pride parades rather goes against the spirit of them, anyway, what with the whole point of them being to tell the authorities to feth themselves.

And that about sums up why I hate the modern protest culture and SJW types (not saying Rose is a SJW)

It isn't about equality, it isn't about inclusiveness, it is about telling everyone else to feth themselves.

Just to clarify because I know there are those who wish to take my words out of context, that does not mean EVERY protest is bad, just most of the recent ones. BLM is a joke and honestly are excessively racist, you want to talk about a group that discriminates, look no further then BLM.

I actually thought Aryan Nation and the KKK were more racist than BLM but now I realise my error.

He didn't say that.

Perhaps I need to go to basic English comprehension school.

Was this protest before or after two more black men were killed by police recently?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Perhaps I need to go to basic English comprehension school.

That, and stop trying to stir gak, which as a mod I find amusing.

What he said may have been wholly incorrect, but to then put words in his mouth is trashy. He said they're excessively racist, and as a group they discriminate. He did not say that they do so more than the aforementioned groups.

I've already said before when a poster said that BLM is as bad as KKK, that the poster was 100% incorrect.

 Ahtman wrote:
Was this protest before or after two more black men were killed by police recently?

Since neither of those shootings happened in Toronto, Canada where the gay pride in question occurred, would the timing be relevant at all? The OP is about a local pride parade acquiescing to BLM's demands to ban the local PD from participating in the parade.

I'm curious if BLM listed any specific grievances against Toronto PD or if they just assume that every LEO is a terrible oppressor. Toronto PD was voluntarily participating in the pride parade to show community unity and solidarity in the principle of equality for all members of the community. I don't see why that would be considered offensive to anyone.

One only has to take account posters history to find the true implication of their posts.

 d-usa wrote:
One only has to take account posters history to find the true implication of their posts.

You do have a point in that. I've sent you a PM about it.

 MrDwhitey wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Perhaps I need to go to basic English comprehension school.

That, and stop trying to stir gak, which as a mod I find amusing.

What he said may have been wholly incorrect, but to then put words in his mouth is trashy. He said they're excessively racist, and as a group they discriminate. He did not say that they do so more than the aforementioned groups.

I've already said before when a poster said that BLM is as bad as KKK, that the poster was 100% incorrect.

Thank you, I couldn't have said it better myself. Killkrazy if you would like to have words with me in private feel free to PM me, if you do not then please stop "trying to stir Gak" to quote MrDwhitey.

I would also like to agree that the KKK is worse then BLM, but given time they might become just as bad.

It should be noted I disagree with you. Whilst I think BLM has some racist elements in it (a vocal minority), it is still a movement in response to real problems that need to be addressed.

I do not personally see them being anywhere near the KKK.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
It should be noted I disagree with you. Whilst I think BLM has some racist elements in it (a vocal minority), it is still a movement in response to real problems that need to be addressed.

I do not personally see them being anywhere near the KKK.

Ohh I dont think the ENTIRE BLM movement will devolve into a KKK style hate group, but already there is evidence that a rather large minority within the group is committing hate crimes against anyone who disagrees with their philosophy or who is just the wrong color skin.

Now whether or not those individuals are actually a part of the group is up for debate, but by their own admission and the statement of witnesses they were with BLM. (Referring to several different events from the last year or two)

 jreilly89 wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
To be fair, MLK actually wanted change and to be seen as equal.

But he argued for diplomacy, that the white man is not the enemy, but must be shown reason and compassion.

MLK did have a clear distaste for the white moderate, tho, and described them as one of the greatest obstacles to justice.

I normally don't participate in these political discussions but I feel I should post the bit of a conversation I had with a friend of mine as I feel it is relevant to the events that occurred:


"The purpose of pride is not to celebrate cooperation between police and pride, or between police and white gay men (who basically represent pride). Pride is historically a highly political protest for ALL people in the LGBT umbrella to stand up and demand that we a) acknowledge that they exist and b) demand equal rights. In modern years it has largely been coopted by the white gay community, corporations, politicians, and police as a way to show off how far white gay men have come in social acceptance, and for the other entities, to show off that they don’t treat white gay men like gak all the time any more.

"Meanwhile, all the other people in the LGBT umbrella (trans folk, bi folk pissed at the white gay men who tell them that they don’t exist, nonwhite folk who deal doubly with police harassment and corporate discrimination for their dual minority status, other genderqueer individuals) are getting increasingly pissed at the OBVIOUS attempt by society to throw up their hands and say LOOK AT HOW WELL WE TREAT WHITE GAY MEN NOW EVERYTHING IS BETTER DONT LOOK IN THE CORNER WHERE WE ARE TRYING TO IGNORE AND OPRESS ALL THESE OTHER FOLKS WHO STILL MAKE US UNCOMFORTABLE, and the equally obvious complicity of a large part of the white gay community who are happy to have been granted a measure of equality and no longer care about helping the other people in their community, who were previously dedicated allies. (phew, run on sentence)

"BLM is just one group who are actually willing to come forward and point out the hypocrisy of Pride, as well as corporations, the police and politicians who continue to oppress the non-white, non-white gay man parts of the LGBT community, and who are marching in pride as if they had never even done anything wrong without even an apology for a century of hate. There are many other groups and individuals in the community who feel the same way and just don’t have the balls (pardon the expression) to stop society’s annual attempt to ignore how we still treat them and pat ourselves on the back. It is pretty clear that some are ignorant of the basic history of pride and of how many, many people feel in the community about this, and are guilty of telling LGBT and non-white people how they are supposed to feel from a position of extreme privilege.

"How else are they supposed to get their message across? By standing on their little float or little booth, crowded out by hundreds of police officers and corporate sponsors, following the rules that we set up for the express purpose of making it easier to ignore them? Social change doesn’t come from following the rules. People have to be made aware that there is a problem before they will attempt to fix it. If they had just presented their list of demands in a private meeting with pride, without media attention, pride would have just told them to feth off as they are already demonstrating by attempting to renege on their agreement."


Anyway take that however you will

Rosebuddy wrote:
The LGBT movement must remain fundamentally radical or it will splinter and fail.

You have a fundamentally broken understanding of what the LGBT movement is. If the LGBT movement splinters because it is no longer radical, it is because it has won.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
To be fair, MLK actually wanted change and to be seen as equal.

But he argued for diplomacy, that the white man is not the enemy, but must be shown reason and compassion.

MLK did have a clear distaste for the white moderate, tho, and described them as one of the greatest obstacles to justice.

Are you intentionally being ignorant? He had a problem with corrupt government, corrupt police, and religious leaders who refused to admit that racism existed. However, he vehemently argued white people were allies for justice, not the enemy.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I normally don't participate in these political discussions but I feel I should post the bit of a conversation I had with a friend of mine as I feel it is relevant to the events that occurred:


"The purpose of pride is not to celebrate cooperation between police and pride, or between police and white gay men (who basically represent pride). Pride is historically a highly political protest for ALL people in the LGBT umbrella to stand up and demand that we a) acknowledge that they exist and b) demand equal rights. In modern years it has largely been coopted by the white gay community, corporations, politicians, and police as a way to show off how far white gay men have come in social acceptance, and for the other entities, to show off that they don’t treat white gay men like gak all the time any more.

"Meanwhile, all the other people in the LGBT umbrella (trans folk, bi folk pissed at the white gay men who tell them that they don’t exist, nonwhite folk who deal doubly with police harassment and corporate discrimination for their dual minority status, other genderqueer individuals) are getting increasingly pissed at the OBVIOUS attempt by society to throw up their hands and say LOOK AT HOW WELL WE TREAT WHITE GAY MEN NOW EVERYTHING IS BETTER DONT LOOK IN THE CORNER WHERE WE ARE TRYING TO IGNORE AND OPRESS ALL THESE OTHER FOLKS WHO STILL MAKE US UNCOMFORTABLE, and the equally obvious complicity of a large part of the white gay community who are happy to have been granted a measure of equality and no longer care about helping the other people in their community, who were previously dedicated allies. (phew, run on sentence)

"BLM is just one group who are actually willing to come forward and point out the hypocrisy of Pride, as well as corporations, the police and politicians who continue to oppress the non-white, non-white gay man parts of the LGBT community, and who are marching in pride as if they had never even done anything wrong without even an apology for a century of hate. There are many other groups and individuals in the community who feel the same way and just don’t have the balls (pardon the expression) to stop society’s annual attempt to ignore how we still treat them and pat ourselves on the back. It is pretty clear that some are ignorant of the basic history of pride and of how many, many people feel in the community about this, and are guilty of telling LGBT and non-white people how they are supposed to feel from a position of extreme privilege.

"How else are they supposed to get their message across? By standing on their little float or little booth, crowded out by hundreds of police officers and corporate sponsors, following the rules that we set up for the express purpose of making it easier to ignore them? Social change doesn’t come from following the rules. People have to be made aware that there is a problem before they will attempt to fix it. If they had just presented their list of demands in a private meeting with pride, without media attention, pride would have just told them to feth off as they are already demonstrating by attempting to renege on their agreement."


Anyway take that however you will

Basically this... 'gay rights' has been co-oped by white gay men who basically have disdain for all the other groups under the LGBT umbrella and only fought to reclaim their power which was their birthright as a white male in america. Now that they have that for the most part, they couldn't give two craps about the struggles of the other groups and lots of corporate and political figures like to partner with these privileged white gay men to say 'see? we are so good! the struggle has been won!'.

Now that White Gay Men have theirs, and have been welcomed back to the white male dinner table, they really are done fighting for others and that is where the Black pride groups get marginalized and booted along with a lot of other subgroups. That is what a lot of this is about. Many pride events are really bigoted and have sharp divisions down gender and racial lines.

nkelsch wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I normally don't participate in these political discussions but I feel I should post the bit of a conversation I had with a friend of mine as I feel it is relevant to the events that occurred:


"The purpose of pride is not to celebrate cooperation between police and pride, or between police and white gay men (who basically represent pride). Pride is historically a highly political protest for ALL people in the LGBT umbrella to stand up and demand that we a) acknowledge that they exist and b) demand equal rights. In modern years it has largely been coopted by the white gay community, corporations, politicians, and police as a way to show off how far white gay men have come in social acceptance, and for the other entities, to show off that they don’t treat white gay men like gak all the time any more.

"Meanwhile, all the other people in the LGBT umbrella (trans folk, bi folk pissed at the white gay men who tell them that they don’t exist, nonwhite folk who deal doubly with police harassment and corporate discrimination for their dual minority status, other genderqueer individuals) are getting increasingly pissed at the OBVIOUS attempt by society to throw up their hands and say LOOK AT HOW WELL WE TREAT WHITE GAY MEN NOW EVERYTHING IS BETTER DONT LOOK IN THE CORNER WHERE WE ARE TRYING TO IGNORE AND OPRESS ALL THESE OTHER FOLKS WHO STILL MAKE US UNCOMFORTABLE, and the equally obvious complicity of a large part of the white gay community who are happy to have been granted a measure of equality and no longer care about helping the other people in their community, who were previously dedicated allies. (phew, run on sentence)

"BLM is just one group who are actually willing to come forward and point out the hypocrisy of Pride, as well as corporations, the police and politicians who continue to oppress the non-white, non-white gay man parts of the LGBT community, and who are marching in pride as if they had never even done anything wrong without even an apology for a century of hate. There are many other groups and individuals in the community who feel the same way and just don’t have the balls (pardon the expression) to stop society’s annual attempt to ignore how we still treat them and pat ourselves on the back. It is pretty clear that some are ignorant of the basic history of pride and of how many, many people feel in the community about this, and are guilty of telling LGBT and non-white people how they are supposed to feel from a position of extreme privilege.

"How else are they supposed to get their message across? By standing on their little float or little booth, crowded out by hundreds of police officers and corporate sponsors, following the rules that we set up for the express purpose of making it easier to ignore them? Social change doesn’t come from following the rules. People have to be made aware that there is a problem before they will attempt to fix it. If they had just presented their list of demands in a private meeting with pride, without media attention, pride would have just told them to feth off as they are already demonstrating by attempting to renege on their agreement."


Anyway take that however you will

Basically this... 'gay rights' has been co-oped by white gay men who basically have disdain for all the other groups under the LGBT umbrella and only fought to reclaim their power which was their birthright as a white male in america. Now that they have that for the most part, they couldn't give two craps about the struggles of the other groups and lots of corporate and political figures like to partner with these privileged white gay men to say 'see? we are so good! the struggle has been won!'.

Now that White Gay Men have theirs, and have been welcomed back to the white male dinner table, they really are done fighting for others and that is where the Black pride groups get marginalized and booted along with a lot of other subgroups. That is what a lot of this is about. Many pride events are really bigoted and have sharp divisions down gender and racial lines.

Serious question. Have you actually met any gay men? Gay, white men?

I dunno, this all seems very backwards. The pride parades got their start as protests towards police raids against gay establishments. Now that they've finally gotten support from police, they're (or rather another right group is) rejecting them. Tearing down walls just to put them back up...

 jreilly89 wrote:


Serious question. Have you actually met any gay men? Gay, white men?

Yes... I am part of a national men's music fraternity where I have met and made friends with a large array of men in the LGBT community and been to many of their events and in their community. The racial divide and bigotry is disgusting and very 'out there'.

It really has become a huge issue, and it is about people born with white male privilege for the first time being denied their birthright when they come out of the closet and not caring about those who grew up as minorities and LGBT. It also helps promote groups who can 'accept' some token members of the LGBT and then continue to actively work against them under the cloak of 'see? we support them!'.

There are real issues based upon race and bigotry within the Pride event world, so I am glad to see anything which tries to expose it to people.

Two of the major issues in DC are the "gayborhood" and "drop the T" movements. One is based around actively making 'white only' gay neighborhoods via redlining techniques and the other is looking to separate the Transgender people from the LGBT as they are homosexuals who support banning and legislating against transgender people because they think it is wrong and don't want to use their political clout to advocate for them.

nkelsch wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Serious question. Have you actually met any gay men? Gay, white men?

Yes... I am part of a national men's music fraternity where I have met and made friends with a large array of men in the LGBT community and been to many of their events and in their community. The racial divide and bigotry is disgusting and very 'out there'.

It really has become a huge issue, and it is about people born with white male privilege for the first time being denied their birthright when they come out of the closet and not caring about those who grew up as minorities and LGBT. It also helps promote groups who can 'accept' some token members of the LGBT and then continue to actively work against them under the cloak of 'see? we support them!'.

There are real issues based upon race and bigotry within the Pride event world, so I am glad to see anything which tries to expose it to people.

Two of the major issues in DC are the "gayborhood" and "drop the T" movements. One is based around actively making 'white only' gay neighborhoods via redlining techniques and the other is looking to separate the Transgender people from the LGBT as they are homosexuals who support banning and legislating against transgender people because they think it is wrong and don't want to use their political clout to advocate for them.

"White male privilege"? Okay, sorry, but I'm out. Carry on with your agenda.

This is a whole world of controversy I had not heard about. interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/36633951/two-proposals-and-other-pride-moments-to-make-us-feel-good

Here's how the UK handle these things, the police propose marriage to the marchers, and each other, and everyone has a great time. Though I'm sure we'll be back to hate and baton charges soon, it's all going that way.

 Darkjim wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/36633951/two-proposals-and-other-pride-moments-to-make-us-feel-good

Here's how the UK handle these things, the police propose marriage to the marchers, and each other, and everyone has a great time. Though I'm sure we'll be back to hate, helmet and baton charges soon, it's all going that way.

Fixed

Parade Organizers probably went along with it to avoid a major backlash from (possible) BLM negative activity during the parade....

 Jihadin wrote:

 Darkjim wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/36633951/two-proposals-and-other-pride-moments-to-make-us-feel-good

Here's how the UK handle these things, the police propose marriage to the marchers, and each other, and everyone has a great time. Though I'm sure we'll be back to hate, helmet and baton charges soon, it's all going that way.

Fixed

Parade Organizers probably went along with it to avoid a major backlash from (possible) BLM negative activity during the parade....

yup they probably did it as the least confrontational way to get the parade moving

 jreilly89 wrote:

Are you intentionally being ignorant? He had a problem with corrupt government, corrupt police, and religious leaders who refused to admit that racism existed. However, he vehemently argued white people were allies for justice, not the enemy.

Letter from a Birmingham Jail

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

I said "white moderates", which may not be every white person (for better or for worse, hah!), but there are still plenty of them around. He certainly believed that white people could be comrades in the struggle for justice but that would depend on them actually joining it.

 AlexHolker wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:
The LGBT movement must remain fundamentally radical or it will splinter and fail.

You have a fundamentally broken understanding of what the LGBT movement is. If the LGBT movement splinters because it is no longer radical, it is because it has won.

A movement can lose unity and momentum long before it achieves victory. The worker's movement has seen far better days in the West and it sure hasn't won. The LGBT movement's existence as a movement was and is not automatic, it required and requires hard work.

 stanman wrote:
I'm confused, I thought BLM was a US thing? I wasn't aware that Toronto was a hotbed of racial tension and police brutality, the only thing I've ever thought Canada was suffering from were people being far too nice (and the occasional moose attack).

Can we come up with something other than the Bureau of Land Management, which is an unpopular organization in most Western US states already.......

Unless of course we are drawing parallels of disgust here?

 jreilly89 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Serious question. Have you actually met any gay men? Gay, white men?

Yes... I am part of a national men's music fraternity where I have met and made friends with a large array of men in the LGBT community and been to many of their events and in their community. The racial divide and bigotry is disgusting and very 'out there'.

It really has become a huge issue, and it is about people born with white male privilege for the first time being denied their birthright when they come out of the closet and not caring about those who grew up as minorities and LGBT. It also helps promote groups who can 'accept' some token members of the LGBT and then continue to actively work against them under the cloak of 'see? we support them!'.

There are real issues based upon race and bigotry within the Pride event world, so I am glad to see anything which tries to expose it to people.

Two of the major issues in DC are the "gayborhood" and "drop the T" movements. One is based around actively making 'white only' gay neighborhoods via redlining techniques and the other is looking to separate the Transgender people from the LGBT as they are homosexuals who support banning and legislating against transgender people because they think it is wrong and don't want to use their political clout to advocate for them.

"White male privilege"? Okay, sorry, but I'm out. Carry on with your agenda.

It's like he's completely glossing over the fact that two of the most homophobic ethnic groups in America are the Black and Latino communities. And that's not the fault of White gay men in any which way.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:
The LGBT movement must remain fundamentally radical or it will splinter and fail.

You have a fundamentally broken understanding of what the LGBT movement is. If the LGBT movement splinters because it is no longer radical, it is because it has won.

A movement can lose unity and momentum long before it achieves victory. The worker's movement has seen far better days in the West and it sure hasn't won. The LGBT movement's existence as a movement was and is not automatic, it required and requires hard work.

But the LGBT movement is not the Workers' Movement. The goal of the LGBT movement is not to overthrow capitalism to make way for a Gay World Order, it is to assimilate into the existing society. Capitalism cannot co-opt that without giving them what they want.