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 Deadshot wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
There's also the fact that they drugged a whole army of ultramarines and gave them to a haemonculus to settle a debt. They aren't on the Imperium's side.

Well, if you can give me a better use for Ultramarines I would like to hear it.

Purging Xenos

Insta-killing Avatars of Khaine, and generally being perfect.

No, no, living wall tapestries in a Coven is definitely the best use for Smerfs, same as using the Imperium as a meatshield for Craftworlds.

 Imateria wrote:
No, no, living wall tapestries in a Coven is definitely the best use for Smerfs, same as using the Imperium as a meatshield for Craftworlds.

You'd be better of with Orks, there should be a psychic trigger for them somewhere, and there is no real way to remove them without burning out all of their spores.

 Torus wrote:
well nobody accused the Imperium of being intelligent, as for Eldar killing Imperial citizens? Please, I'd wager the Imperium has killed more of their own people than the pointy eared protagonists of the story via exterminatus, wayward Inquisitors and meat grinder mentality with the military.

Yep, we have Nids, a race which maybe the greatest threat to life in the galaxy... Necron uprisings throughout the Imperium... Ork Waaagh's billions strong... and the Imperium in all their wisdom goes for the Eldar? A dying race whose every death makes a certain pleasure God stronger by the way (not so much Harlequins but definitely Eldrad).

You may not want to fight beside them, but good grief they have more pressing Xeno threats no? Idiots.

Only Dark Eldar deaths feed Slaanesh. The only way a Craftworld Eldar's soul goes to Slaanesh is if you destroy their spirit stone.

Speaking of Eldar, Slaanesh and the Imperium, there is an interesting story about Grey Knight purging Craftworld Malanti (spelling?). I think it is on the last version of the GK codex.

Malanti was destroyed by the Nids and left barren to drift in space. Due to all the dead Eldar and crippled infinity circuit, minions of Slaanesh soon flooded the CW, gorging themselves on the soulstones. There is even a really cool part where the Avatar starts to wake up (without the ritual as normal), but a Keeper of Secrets possesses it instead.
GKs found out about it and showed up to purge them. The most interesting part about it is that the GKs did not destroy the remaining soulstones (and essential feed Slaanesh), but instead called the nearest CW to come pick them up.

So at least some Imperials know what they are doing. GKs kill Daemons, but DW only care about killing Xenos.

-

 Galef wrote:
Speaking of Eldar, Slaanesh and the Imperium, there is an interesting story about Grey Knight purging Craftworld Malanti (spelling?). I think it is on the last version of the GK codex.

Malanti was destroyed by the Nids and left barren to drift in space. Due to all the dead Eldar and crippled infinity circuit, minions of Slaanesh soon flooded the CW, gorging themselves on the soulstones. There is even a really cool part where the Avatar starts to wake up (without the ritual as normal), but a Keeper of Secrets possesses it instead.
GKs found out about it and showed up to purge them. The most interesting part about it is that the GKs did not destroy the remaining soulstones (and essential feed Slaanesh), but instead called the nearest CW to come pick them up.

So at least some Imperials know what they are doing. GKs kill Daemons, but DW only care about killing Xenos.

-

Well that's the thing, GK are ultimate pragmatists. Assisting or shaking hands maybe be unthinkable for the rest of the Imperium but if it hinders the Daemon, the GK won't hesitate. The Eldar and Necrons are potential allies against Chaos so all the merrier. As you say, destroying the stones has no benefit to the GK, as it A) Empowers Slaanesh B) Makes Eldar angry and target GK C) Does not reduce number of Eldar in the galaxy (only the number of Wraithlords/guard/blades)
Deathwatch on the whole don't have that knowledge or insight and their sole focus is destroying the Alien, as they're job description says to. Everything else is secondary.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Torus wrote:
well nobody accused the Imperium of being intelligent, as for Eldar killing Imperial citizens? Please, I'd wager the Imperium has killed more of their own people than the pointy eared protagonists of the story via exterminatus, wayward Inquisitors and meat grinder mentality with the military.

Yep, we have Nids, a race which maybe the greatest threat to life in the galaxy... Necron uprisings throughout the Imperium... Ork Waaagh's billions strong... and the Imperium in all their wisdom goes for the Eldar? A dying race whose every death makes a certain pleasure God stronger by the way (not so much Harlequins but definitely Eldrad).

You may not want to fight beside them, but good grief they have more pressing Xeno threats no? Idiots.

Only Dark Eldar deaths feed Slaanesh. The only way a Craftworld Eldar's soul goes to Slaanesh is if you destroy their spirit stone.

True, but I also imagine that if an Eldar gets stuck by a bolter shell, the majority of torso would be torn to pieces, spirit stones and all.

 Torus wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Torus wrote:
well nobody accused the Imperium of being intelligent, as for Eldar killing Imperial citizens? Please, I'd wager the Imperium has killed more of their own people than the pointy eared protagonists of the story via exterminatus, wayward Inquisitors and meat grinder mentality with the military.

Yep, we have Nids, a race which maybe the greatest threat to life in the galaxy... Necron uprisings throughout the Imperium... Ork Waaagh's billions strong... and the Imperium in all their wisdom goes for the Eldar? A dying race whose every death makes a certain pleasure God stronger by the way (not so much Harlequins but definitely Eldrad).

You may not want to fight beside them, but good grief they have more pressing Xeno threats no? Idiots.

Only Dark Eldar deaths feed Slaanesh. The only way a Craftworld Eldar's soul goes to Slaanesh is if you destroy their spirit stone.

True, but I also imagine that if an Eldar gets stuck by a bolter shell, the majority of torso would be torn to pieces, spirit stones and all.

Spirit Stones have a 1+ plot armour save, unless targetted by Ultramarines, Slaaneshi Daemons, DEldar or the Main Character.

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Deathwatch are Xenos hunters. Eldar are Xenos.
The upcoming boxed set is a current event and not an event of the past, way I understand it. So you really don't know what Eldrad and the Harlequins are doing. Maybe they attacked an imperial world or stole something.

How current? Because if it's set after the end of the 13th Black Crusade, then that is a serious retcon (unless they explain how Eldrad escaped the Warp).

Death Watch not only screws up Eldar plans to kill Slaanesh but also destroys the spiritstones that empower Chaos.

How are humans not the bad guys or the pawns of Chaos in this situation?

F*cking idiots.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Deathwatch are Xenos hunters. Eldar are Xenos.
The upcoming boxed set is a current event and not an event of the past, way I understand it. So you really don't know what Eldrad and the Harlequins are doing. Maybe they attacked an imperial world or stole something.

How current? Because if it's set after the end of the 13th Black Crusade, then that is a serious retcon (unless they explain how Eldrad escaped the Warp).

Present timeline was rolled back to just before the 13th Black Crusade anyway.

 Torus wrote:
well nobody accused the Imperium of being intelligent, as for Eldar killing Imperial citizens? Please, I'd wager the Imperium has killed more of their own people than the pointy eared protagonists of the story via exterminatus, wayward Inquisitors and meat grinder mentality with the military.

Yep, we have Nids, a race which maybe the greatest threat to life in the galaxy... Necron uprisings throughout the Imperium... Ork Waaagh's billions strong... and the Imperium in all their wisdom goes for the Eldar? A dying race whose every death makes a certain pleasure God stronger by the way (not so much Harlequins but definitely Eldrad).

You may not want to fight beside them, but good grief they have more pressing Xeno threats no? Idiots.

If it's a developing threat to the Imperium, then it's a worthwhile endeavour. No need to let yourself drown in enemies if you can do something to prevent it.

DorianGray wrote:
Death Watch not only screws up Eldar plans to kill Slaanesh but also destroys the spiritstones that empower Chaos.

How are humans not the bad guys or the pawns of Chaos in this situation?

F*cking idiots.

Pretty much everything any faction does empowers Chaos in some way, what are they supposed to do just give up and die?

 Orblivion wrote:

DorianGray wrote:
Death Watch not only screws up Eldar plans to kill Slaanesh but also destroys the spiritstones that empower Chaos.

How are humans not the bad guys or the pawns of Chaos in this situation?

F*cking idiots.

Pretty much everything any faction does empowers Chaos in some way, what are they supposed to do just give up and die?

^This.

Besides, it's not like Eldrad and the Harlequins, both notoriously deceptive and secretive, are going to have a sit down and explain their grand master plan to the local Imperium authorities, and even if they did, that doesn't mean those authorities will or should trust them, because they would gladly wipe out whole sectors/segmentums/ the entire human race if they thought it would be beneficial to the survival of the Eldar and their fight against Chaos.

90% chance that this fight started by Eldar forces either attacking something the Imperium owns or trying to steal some valuable artifact, because they know the Imperium wouldn't part with it willingly.

Remember, the Eldar are extremely proactive (because Farseers seein' the future and junk). The Imperium is mostly reactive. Odds are pretty good the Eldar started this fight.

Best bet, Eldrad predicts something, it needs to get somewhere quite difficult so must rely on ancient webway paths.

That's where the Arlequins step in they know the webway entrance it's somewhere near a important imperium sector/planet so they either need speed or secrecy ( a small troupe guides Eldrad)

Deathwatch notices a lone Eldrad with a few Harlequins and they think it's about damn time we can remove one of the biggest leaders the eldar have.

What solid information do we actually have on this?

Yes it totally makes sense.,

Actual spoiler from the beast arises

Yes but the Eldar will retaliate no? Unlike tyranids or necrons if you let them pass they probably won't screw with you.

 fallinq wrote:

Besides, it's not like Eldrad and the Harlequins, both notoriously deceptive and secretive, are going to have a sit down and explain their grand master plan to the local Imperium authorities,

Actual Spoiler

DorianGray wrote:
You think Death Watch would be assassinating Ork warbosses, Necron lords, or Dark Eldar Archons but instead they are devoting their resources to hunting down and killing Eldard and the Harlequins?

The Harlequins are a religious sect devoting to killing Chaos and Eldrad is obviously a huge asset against Chaos.There are almost NO accounts of HARLEQUINS except for possible one troup attacking the Imperium.. Isn't the Imperium killing potential/likely allies slowed? This is like an own goal and the Chaos is going "WTF LOL?" on the other side?

Of course this isn't the first time the IoM makes idiotic decisions that goes against their own interests..

a) why you think harlequins in 10,000 years or so haven't attacked IoM? Eldars for sure have. And besides for IoM eldar is an eldar. Harlequin, craftworld, all are eldar. Since eldars been attacking IoM they aren't going to look harlequins and go "okay THESE eldars aren't attacking us". They go "they are eldars". Humans are like that NOW and we are talking about other humans...You think we are going to be MORE specific with alien race?-)
b) eldars and IoM aren't exactly allies nor do their goals really meet. Both are looking out only at the interest of themselves. Neither is willing to contemplate idea of universum where BOTH coexists. They might make temporary truce for sake of convenience(though even that's going to be mostly "let's ignore those guys out there and concentrate on blowing up enemy in front of us" level) but even then it's both sides aiming to screw other if possible.

40k isn't some goody good happy let's fight against evil together. Everybody is basically evil.

The Deathwatch attack the Eldar because they are Xenos.

Chaos, whilst a threat to them, is not their main concern. Eldar are not a peaceful race. Check out an event known as the Exodus. Then tell me the Eldar don't pose a risk to humanity.

They might not actively want humanity extinct, but no race desires humanity alone to die.
Orks: they will attack anyone.
Necrons: they will attack anyone to get their empire back.
Tyranids: they will eat anyone.
Dark Eldar: they will attack anyone to get their slaves.
Tau: will expand regardless of borders.
Eldar: only concerned about protecting themselves.

The Eldar are opposed to Chaos because it suits them. Not or the good of the galaxy. Funnily enough, that's the same as the Imperium. So why aren't you making an argument that the Eldar shouldn't fight the Imperium because they both fight Chaos? Because the Eldar, like the Imperium, are xenophobic and self-serving.
You're quick to blame the Imperium and call them stupid, yet we're not seeing any attempt of the Eldar to be peaceful. Hell, what about the Necrons? Chaos is anathema to them. Tyranids can't absorb biomass from daemons. You even mention that the Deathwatch should fight Dark Eldar Archons, who are JUST as opposed to Chaos. Why aren't Tyranids, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons AND the Imperium all working together to defeat Chaos as a threat?
Because they all have other interests, and want to be the last ones standing. The Deathwatch goes after targets of opportunity - the chance to wipe out an Eldar leadership figure is a MASSIVE boon to them. They'd do exactly the same to a Necron Phaeron, or a Tau Shas'O, or a Tyranid Hive Tyrant. It just so happens that it is Eldar, and they are xenos that must be stopped. If Eldrad was planning on wiping out Terra, in order to stop the Imperium attacking the Eldar and feeding Chaos, would that still be the Imperium's fault if they retaliated?

Don't suggest the Eldar will just let humanity live out in peace, because humanity means nothing to the Eldar.

Eldar fight against Chaos because it's one of the most potent threats to almost everything in the galexy, not because it suits them for the time being.

You don't see Eldar being peaceful, but of all the alien races you see them allying with the Imperium when Chaos comes knocking, especially Ulthwe.

Deathwatch hunting down Eldar is fine as a story, but with Eldrad (or Ulthwe in general) being the target doesn't make sense. Biel-Tan working in conjunction with the Frozen Stars masque being the target works a lot better.

 Torus wrote:
Eldar fight against Chaos because it's one of the most potent threats to almost everything in the galexy, not because it suits them for the time being.

You don't see Eldar being peaceful, but of all the alien races you see them allying with the Imperium when Chaos comes knocking, especially Ulthwe.

Deathwatch hunting down Eldar is fine as a story, but with Eldrad (or Ulthwe in general) being the target doesn't make sense. Biel-Tan working in conjunction with the Frozen Stars masque being the target works a lot better.

Its an excuse to release a new plastic Eldrad model in the campaign to expunge Finecast, that is all.


Chaos threatens every faction in the galaxy, but everything is a threat to the Imperium, and depending what planet you are on, Chaos may not be an immediate threat. The Gold Warriors in the far far south probably have never seen a Chaos Marine or renegade, but they are certainly concerned with the threats from the Ork empires of Charadon and Octarius, as well as Hive Fleet Leviathan. And the average worker on a hive world couldnt care less about Chaos, in fact, they may see it as a good thing. But when the filthy pointy-ears come rounding up slaves to drag back to Emperor-knows-where, they are certainly more concerned.

The fact is, given the chance, Imperium would (and should) exterminate all other Xenos in the galaxy, and Chaos. If all the Eldar Farseers and Warlocks were on one planet, and the Imperium reckoned they could drop an Exterminatus, they would without hesitation as it removes one threat from their ever-growing list. Hell, the psychic backlash could even wipe out the rest of the race or at least a majority at once. Its a no brainer.

The thing with the Eldar fighting against Chaos is that they really focus almost solely on Slaanesh. They certainly recognize the other 3 as a threat, but Slaanesh dominates their fate and they act accordingly. If they thought they could destroy Slaanesh by sacrificing all human life to the other 3, they would probably do it.

The Eldar fighting Chaos does not mean it puts the Imperium or humanity in a better position.

Why not?

Example one)
Eldar: farseers foresee a newly formed Imperial colony uncovering a Chaos artifact that creates a daemonic incursion in a century's time. They kill the Imperials, and with it stop a full scale incursion - Imperials dead but larger scale demonic invasion stopped.

Compare that to Grey Knights: Grey knights respond to a full scale Demonic incursion, costing multiple worlds. Incursion stopped and all Imperial citizens subject to exterminatus.


Example 2)

An unspeakably large Chaos fleet is sighted in the leaving for Cadia, the Imperial fleet broker an alliance with Craftworld An-Iolus and a Corsair fleet to destroy the Chaos threat.


Then again, could this box set be related to the Coven of Isha in some way?

Those two examples do nothing to disprove my point. The Eldar having a plan against Chaos doesn't necessarily mean it benefits humanity.

 Torus wrote:
Why not?

Example one)
Eldar: farseers foresee a newly formed Imperial colony uncovering a Chaos artifact that creates a daemonic incursion in a century's time. They kill the Imperials, and with it stop a full scale incursion - Imperials dead but larger scale demonic invasion stopped.

Compare that to Grey Knights: Grey knights respond to a full scale Demonic incursion, costing multiple worlds. Incursion stopped and all Imperial citizens subject to

Incorrect. There is no reason Eldar would stop a daemon incursion if it didn't affect them in some way.
The more likely reason these Eldar would exterminate the Imperial presence (instead of, you know, destroying the artefact in question or educating the Imperials instead, like a truly benelovent race would) would be to protect their own kin from the Chaos threat - not to save the wider Imperium/Galaxy.

They don't care about who they kill, so long as their own kind is saved. They would wipe every other race from the stars if it saved their race, just like the Imperium.

The Grey Knight example is false, seeing as you're basing it off of the Armageddon Incident. The case was meant to be simple - sterilisation and execution, no Exterminatus needed. This is before the Wolves got involved, and escalated the incident. A typical Grey Knight incident would begin when they found the Chaos artefact, isolate and destroy the daemonic incursion before Exterminatus is needed.

Your bias is showing through.

Example 2)

An unspeakably large Chaos fleet is sighted in the leaving for Cadia, the Imperial fleet broker an alliance with Craftworld An-Iolus and a Corsair fleet to destroy the Chaos threat.

Yes - the Eldar would only follow this alliance if it bettered them. If the Eldar lost more men than the Chaos fleet would cause, why would they bother attacking? Why should Eldar care about some Imperial world unless it would also harm the Eldar?

They are NOT benevolent. They are self-serving and capricious, and would not hesitate to destroy the Imperium if it would cause Eldar deaths. This alliance exists not because of Eldar goodwill, but because it benefits the Eldar.

 Orblivion wrote:
Those two examples do nothing to disprove my point. The Eldar having a plan against Chaos doesn't necessarily mean it benefits humanity.

How does it not benefit humanity? Chaos being crippled, or a more potent threat stopped obviously helps both parties.

 Torus wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Those two examples do nothing to disprove my point. The Eldar having a plan against Chaos doesn't necessarily mean it benefits humanity.

How does it not benefit humanity? Chaos being crippled, or a more potent threat stopped obviously helps both parties.

Well, considering that some notable previous attempts at stopping Chaos involved wiping humanity out...

 Torus wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Those two examples do nothing to disprove my point. The Eldar having a plan against Chaos doesn't necessarily mean it benefits humanity.

How does it not benefit humanity? Chaos being crippled, or a more potent threat stopped obviously helps both parties.

Not necessarily. If the Eldar plan involves sacrificing humanity in some way, or directing Chaos' attention on humanity, how does that benefit both parties? We have no idea what the plan is, so we can't just assume that it will be good for humanity as well.

Say the Eldar successfully destroy Slaanesh. The other three would be largely unaffected by that event, and would probably be happier. So Chaos would still be an incredible threat to the Imperium, and now the Eldar would be on the rise again. How does that benefit humanity?