@David Smith - I asked about changing Jason's pose and was told it was too late. I think this is a side effect of us doing as much preparation before the KS as we could. While this means that we can be more confident at delivering your game early, it also means that things are further advanced before you get to see (and comment) on them and so are less able to be changed. Pros and cons. I will ask the question, but I expect the same thing will be true here too.

On a side note, and if you will forgive the personal ramble... When I first got involved in the Mythic Battles circus, and saw all the sculpts, I thought that the Troops were a bit poor compared to the amazing Monsters and Gods. Not terrible at all, especially when you can see them in your hand and look at all the crisp detail. Just not up to the same ridiculously high standard. That was my initial impression. Then I played the game. Now this is important: these figures are actually gaming pieces. This, despite the fact that they could happily stand alongside models made for tabletop gaming, and the big guys are miniatures I think painters will want to collect just to paint. Anyway, they're really (amazing) board game pieces. Troops are the most frail of the units on the battlefield in terms of stats and skills. They are mortals that have wandered into a battlefield full of Gods and Monsters, and they are simply outclassed. They die in droves. But Troops can be recalled (resurrected) and return to the battlefield too, giving them a unique ability and balancing their weaker stats. All great game play and fun tactics. In terms of models, this means that the Troop models need to be robust because they are put on the board, move and fight, get taken off, replaced, killed again, replaced, and so on. The models need to survive a lot of handling. Taken in this context, they work perfectly. They are simpler, more robust models, that will survive a lot of repeated use. For example, when we took the first 5 test sets of gaming pieces to Essen, and had them on display for the public to game with and examine in person, not a single model was damaged. I know because I personally checked all 5 sets after the show. I will say that again: not a single model in 5 sets was damaged in 4 days of constant use. I was amazed - I was sure there would be some breakages after continual (sometimes very rough) handling, plus being taken out of their boxes and repacked every day. So my opinion changed. Whilst you could improve on some of the Troop models (and it's not even all of them) in terms of the most beautiful display model you could ever make, I think they serve their purpose brilliantly. I still have a blue-sky imagining of making more rounded and varied (historically accurate - and this is my main reason) models, but I know they would get broken all the time because such models would be way more fragile. They'd also slow the game because I'd not want to grab a handful of them and chuck them in the box as I can with these ones

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
The risks and challenges read
"Due to the fact that the core box of Mythic Battles: Pantheon is 95% complete as we head into this campaign..."

So let me get this right, they are missing that last 5% in order to get their game into the market? Apologies but I highly doubt that,also seeing what the funding target was. Unless, that number is a lie and they are missing more than five percent (which I don't think is the case), but if that was the truth they are equally not excused.

I honestly don't understand it, the sculpts are ready and look great, the theme looks good, the game I don't know but I have no reason to doubt it is also good. So, if the product is ready to go into retail, why on Earth go into crowdfunding depriving from other projects (which genuinely lack the funds) the opportunity to see the light of day?

Risks and challenges

This isn't our first rodeo. We have been producing games and working with factories in China for some time now. We are familiar with the delays that can unexpectedly pop up, whether they be due to production, shipping or customs.
The estimated delivery date for Conan is October 2015, but please keep in mind that this is an informed guess. Also note that due to logistical restrictions in different regions, some backers may receive their pledge rewards before others. We will be doing our utmost to avoid these situations and, in the unlikely event that we are unable to deliver the game, we will be refunding pledges in full. Due to the fact that Conan is 80% complete as we head into this campaign, and that we have already signed agreements with many of those in charge of production, delivery and distribution, we have no reason to suspect that this eventuality will ever occur.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
The risks and challenges read
"Due to the fact that the core box of Mythic Battles: Pantheon is 95% complete as we head into this campaign..."

So let me get this right, they are missing that last 5% in order to get their game into the market? Apologies but I highly doubt that,also seeing what the funding target was. Unless, that number is a lie and they are missing more than five percent (which I don't think is the case), but if that was the truth they are equally not excused.

I honestly don't understand it, the sculpts are ready and look great, the theme looks good, the game I don't know but I have no reason to doubt it is also good. So, if the product is ready to go into retail, why on Earth go into crowdfunding depriving from other projects (which genuinely lack the funds) the opportunity to see the light of day? I'm sorry if I sound snarky/crabby/choleric/insert whatever you like, that is not my intention and it is definitely nothing personal with this company (I absoluetly don't know any of the people who own Monolith or Mythic Games and would perhaps buy the game in retail if reasonably priced, it follows Greek mythology after all!) but the more we study how crowdfunding works the more things we find alarmingly altering its very essence.

If any of the mods find my post inappropriate please move or delete it.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Sculpts may well be done but not paid for (similar to what Cthulhu Wars and I think Conan did),

There's this thing in business called cash flow. A business could be turning a profit, and still die because of cash flow issues. Board gaming companies are repeatedly hit hard with learning this essential truth. When you use Kickstarter, you're giving money at a 10% cut to the producer to eliminate startup costs. So instead of the producer putting up his capital and sitting on it with massive negative cash flow for a year plus. That money comes up front and the producer gets to go into production--the cost to the Kickstarter backer is that he gets to wait while his capital is tied up (but this is spread across all backers) and it may be of lower quality than what ends up in the market. So, by backing through Kickstarter it's discounted a bit as it direct from producer to consumer, and there's no capital hit and I'm waiting to get the goods at a risk of lower quality. The demand forecast for this cycle is perfect as well. If the producer planned well, there's little risk of negative cash flow (still happens though).

Now, when it goes into retail market. The producer pays the production cost, then sells to distributors and then they sell to retailers which each have to mark up the cost to stay afloat themselves, which then goes to consumers. So there's two more mouths to feed in the chain, and quality issues are hopefully fixed at this point. Forecasting the demand at the retail level is now risking capital of the producer. The cost overall on this side is higher and the producer is assuming more risk. Commonly there's even NET90 deals in which the producer takes on even more risk in trusting that a distributor will pay him later within 90 days. Market downturn and NET90 deals fall through like dominos and a bunch of people get burned. Risk is cost. Additional members in supply chain is cost. They might even be making less when they're charging more.

So, there's no whining about fair. It is what it is. Yes it will cost you more because you didn't get on the Kickstarter. You will get an improved rule book. Not all things will be available in retail market. Kickstarter has allowed for a lot more product to reach a later market stage with fewer bankruptcies. This has created an explosion of options in boardgaming. Cost in retail will in general be higher than Kickstarter prices. Get over it.

@Florent - Black Book Editions have announced a Mythic Battles: Pantheon RPG for 2017.

@David Smith - I believe the plan is to deliver everything in one go. The whole shipping thing is a right pain. I have never met any company that actively wants to ship stuff more than one lot. Nothing but bad things in that plan.

In the end, I think the resolution to put all the Conan stuff in one place (EDIT: as an add-on) makes most sense. This is, after all, a Kickstarter for Mythic Battles: Pantheon, not Conan, and though we can provide some great extras to make even more of that game, we need to focus On MB.

@Andres - looking into translations into other languages.

If we sent back every model that a few people complained about (and ignored those who liked them), then the whole project would be delayed by many months. The time and effort we spent getting as far ahead as we could afford to before we started (specifically to have confidence in delivering on time) would be wasted. A card or two, on the other hand, takes a tiny fraction of the time to do, and so can be changed without endangering the delivery date. When we change a card then our graphics guy takes an hour to do some work then the file is instantly sent (digitally) to the printer. It's the work of less than an afternoon to have it in production. A miniature has to be sculpted, sent physically somewhere (if it's trad sculpting, which half of ours are), checked, possibly returned for improvements, sent back again, approved, sent to the mould makers to be mastered, checked again, before it starts getting into the moulding process to make production moulds. Which, depending on the type of mould, can take weeks. The whole process often takes months. Not the same thing at all.

@Henrik the Adventurer - we wanted to wait to put the Conan crossover up when we had shipped the last few Conan boxes out - some time next week.

@Stijn Callant - the painting guide will probably be part of an add-on. Probably. After Atlas you never know

The demise of the mini Conan stretch Goals - we understand that this will be missed by some of you (where were you all when this was originally being discussed?). However, the content has not disappeared. We listened to the majority who clearly didn't appreciate them, and so the items which would have been mini-SG will be in with the Conan crossover add-on (when we post it) instead. So they haven't gone, just moved house. In this way people who want to play Conan with these models can get what they want without pure MB backers getting upset. Everyone wins! I thought it was quite an elegant solution. Solomonic, even.

@LepperGod - you make a good point about creative use of the background. I think the reason you've not seen a lot of that is that most of our efforts in that direction have been aimed at the campaigns, and we've not talked much about them yet. The one in the Hephaoistos campaign is a great example of what can be done. But if I tell you the details of that then it will spoil the surprise. We would love to do more, and we will. Remember that we only just started this a few days ago, so we had no guarantee we would get funded for the basics, let alone have the wonderful reception we have had from you guys. This is far from the last you've heard from Mythic Battles!

@NecroNuke9 - you are correct - the "Hell" should be changed to Tartarus or the Underworld or something. Golems too. We have to go all the names and check spellings and so on after the KS ends, when we know what we need to fix. "Tartaran" does sound like a sauce though

@JIM CHEN - I'm afraid there are no current plans to offer a painted miniatures pledge level.

@Pseudonyme - delivery is Dec 2017. However, if we start going back and reworking the models we've already done then we will make it later than that. I know it's a pain, but this is the downside to getting stuff done in advance so you can ship on time.

Don_P - I believe there will be at least one dice add-on.

@Andrew Rees - I will ask about the painting guide.

@Don_P - TBH I can't remember the details of when I played BR. Too tired and too focussed on MB right now. What is clear to me is that there has never been a need for coloured ID tags on units in any game of MB I have played or run as a demo. That is obviously including demos run with people who had never played before.

Clear bases - unlikely. We did look into this and it was problematic and expensive so we dropped it. The ones that were practical and sufficiently inexpensive to make them viable looked really naff.

@Artem Holubiev - absolutely. WE'll be putting up a beta rulebook during the campaign, once we've got the main stuff cleared up, You're all invited to help stamp on any remaining gremlins.

Females - lots of non-combat goddesses, not so many Heroes, plenty of Monsters, almost no Troops. That is my summary of Greek myth

Translations - being discussed.

Other pantheons - we'd love to, and we may get to them in the future. This KS is all about the Greeks though

@David Kekejian - we don't currently plan to offer pre-printed models.

@Miguel Angel D - I think we have more backers than Conan did at this stage. Also at this stage there was more to spend your money on in Conan.

@Michael Wade - I didn't follow the details of the Conan campaign, so I cannot comment on their comms. I'm trying to get an update on the state of Conan shipments. Last I heard (last week) they were getting very close to finished sending out.

@Oz Locke - Currently God pledge $99 + Hephaistos $49 + Hell Judges $15.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Is there precedent for 4-armed Atlas? I don't remember ever seeing him depicted as such.

Split delivery - we'd rather not. As I said in the previous part of this reply, we've made a lot of effort to avoid the necessity. Split shipping adds a great deal of cost, both for packing and shipping. Best avoided.

"Can we change a model?" - Almost certainly no. Sorry. We listen to you all the time, and we change things where possible. We're changing the scenarios in the core game, we completely rearranged the SGs, and so on. However, we decided a long time ago that it was important to be able to state a delivery time and then hit it. Delivering on time with only a year's lead time means that we need to have an enormous amount of stuff done in advance. A year might sound like a long time to wait, but in terms of manufacturing and delivering thousands of items across the planet, it's not. We've already spent well over a year on this project.
The miniatures are the element with the longest lead time, so they are the furthest ahead. So while we can make some changes to paper products, adjust the layout of cards, and actively seek your feedback on rules layout (and have the time to act on it) we simply have not got the time to rework sculpts. At least, not without very quickly starting to make ourselves late, and we don't want to do that. As always, it's a balancing act between allowing you guys to join in and getting it to you sooner. There probably isn't a perfect answer. And, of course, even if we *did* rework a model there is nothing to say that we would get a version you liked any better. Not forgetting that not everyone wants any given model redone anyway.

Medea - some people don't like the model. We think that it might be because you haven't seen good pics of her yet. We're getting better photos taken to show you. Also, she *is* a mad sorceress, so she's supposed to look a bit unhinged. That's deliberate

 rabidaskal wrote:
So torn between this and Deep Madness. Both look awesome in different ways, but I can only afford one, what with getting into the Battle Systems KS at the same time T_T Happy I didn't pick up Star Saga though, since personally I prefer either of these to that one.

Translations - at present, if we want to deliver this on time (which we do) it is not practical for us to start translating it into a 3rd language (a language which none of the team speak fluently). I'm sorry, but that's just the facts. Even if we imagine that it was financially practical to do a third translation (which I am far from convinced it is) then we either delay all the versions, or increase the costs massively for the extra language edition(s). One edition of 40 was rewritten (at least in part) because of the impracticably high costs of foreign editions. And a worse edition it was for it too.

@NottrDerBarBar - there is no single player or co-op "mode". Instead, a small number of scenarios are designed specifically to work as single player or co-op games.

I will try to arrange for more pics with miniatures side-by-side or with scales. We've used our Spartan as a reference in most of them. Unfortunately some of the ministers are with the factory, so not all can be rephotograhped.

@Pawel - you make some good points about localisation. To add to your point, I've seen months added to the time it takes to do the translation because someone was negotiating with more than one distributor in a country, and the translation didn't even start before that was resolved.

Translations - I do appreciate that having games in your own language makes a huge difference. I have several games in my collection from the time when German games were not translated into English. It is a pain, but I have them because the games are really good. I don't know how these other companies magic translations out of thin air for no money in no time, as seems to be being suggested as a possibility here. I assure you it's not. As well as the actual translating (which really needs to be done by professional translators and checked by native-speaking gamers), additional translations require all the paper and card and boxes or other packaging to be laid out again to fit the new language. Some languages are 50% longer than others, so this is far from a trivial job. Then you've got to get the factory to set up a new print run (with a much lower volume so the costs per unit are higher), and then you have to arrange a new picking and packing line to make the components into games. Assuming the factory still has slots in its production schedule which you organised months ago in order to deliver on time. Oh, I forgot. Most countries have different legal requirements, testing and safety regulations for components, and so on. Sorting that is fun and easy. Not. I've known this alone to take 6 months. Actually, I've known products fail this red tape after 6 months (only to pass it on re-submission without any changes to the product).So anyone who tells you that it's just a case of flicking a switch and getting a new language version has never tried doing it. Or accepts a far lower standard than we want to. Or, as I strongly suspect is the case for these other companies, had planned to do it in the first place, so had put everything into place 6 months earlier.

@Marco Poliakhoff - female Gods are coming along. I think there should be a push for some male characters. All this talk about females, females, females...

One of the reasons for small expansions being KSE is that distributors and shops tend not to like (or take) them. I know that's not universal, but it's common.

The spears will be in ABS (hard plastic like airplane model kits) rather than PVC. This is so that the come straight, and stay that way. You can't bend ABS back with heat like PVC. But then you shouldn't need to.

@Simon Sarrasin - Conan had a number of problems, partly caused by being more successful than expected. This caused delays in delivery, which is due to be completed for the last American backers in about 2 week's time.We have used this experience to completely change the way we prepare for a KS campaign, and have invested a lot of resource working on Mythic Battles over the last 18 months +. The aim of all this additional preparation was to ensure that this KS is delivered on time.

@Weresheep of Sin AKA Stefan - the retail versions are likely to be the same as the KS ones, minus any KSE.

@Mark Avrit - each backer can have a maximum of one EB pledge to share that out. You can add as many more sets as you wan though, as far as we are concerned. can't confirm any KS built-in limits.

@José María Morales - the last plan I head about the Conan crossover was that it would be how to use Mythic Battles units in Conan rather than the other way round. There have been some suggestions for expanding on that, but I have not had confirmation yet.

@Brutal314 - the dashboards have English on one side and French on the other. There will be background info and stories in the rulebook. As Beowulf says, books on real Greek mythology will give you a good start point. They are quiet on the subject of the second Titanomachy though.

@MrG0bi - The painting guide is set-by-step. I haven't read it yet (it's written, but not translated) so I'm not 100% sure what level it is in terms of techniques discussed. As discussed below by various people, the internet has some good resources for painting which are well worth checking out. Just not with our models

@mark keedwell - there used to be a print and play copy of an early version of MBP on the Mythic Games website. Don't know if it's still there. We haven't been promoting it because we're working on a more finished version of the rules. But if you're eager it should be around somewhere. The internet never forgets.

@Firengul - each double-sided 60cm square map is in one piece, folding in quarters to fit in the box. Same factory and same spec as Conan boards, just a different size.

Oh and Kraken. *We don't need no stinkin' Kraken*. We've got all sorts of nasties in the sea.

 Theophony wrote:

Spoiler:

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
The risks and challenges read
"Due to the fact that the core box of Mythic Battles: Pantheon is 95% complete as we head into this campaign..."

So let me get this right, they are missing that last 5% in order to get their game into the market? Apologies but I highly doubt that,also seeing what the funding target was. Unless, that number is a lie and they are missing more than five percent (which I don't think is the case), but if that was the truth they are equally not excused.

I honestly don't understand it, the sculpts are ready and look great, the theme looks good, the game I don't know but I have no reason to doubt it is also good. So, if the product is ready to go into retail, why on Earth go into crowdfunding depriving from other projects (which genuinely lack the funds) the opportunity to see the light of day? I'm sorry if I sound snarky/crabby/choleric/insert whatever you like, that is not my intention and it is definitely nothing personal with this company (I absoluetly don't know any of the people who own Monolith or Mythic Games and would perhaps buy the game in retail if reasonably priced, it follows Greek mythology after all!) but the more we study how crowdfunding works the more things we find alarmingly altering its very essence.

If any of the mods find my post inappropriate please move or delete it.

[...]
I've read your posts in other threads before along similar lines. I've seen your kickstarters succeed and fail as well. I'm sorry your not getting more from your kickstarters, but other companies have just as much right to run one as you. You have product on the market, so why should you be able to run a Kickstarter under you own reasoning? You can PM me if you'd like to respond so we don't derail this thread anymore with off topic chatter.