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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well you flag says you're from Germany, in Germany you're not allowed to display a swastika on anything that could be construed as a toy, which miniatures most certainly are. You aren't even allowed to have a swastika on an actual historical plastic model aircraft. So in Germany this wouldn't be allowed even though it's a historical representation of an actual aircraft...

Sure, Siegrunen are also banned. So anyone using Viking dice in saga, will they please roll the dice 1 at a time .

I doubt anyone would call the police over it though (unless there were other forces at play of course).

xraytango wrote:
Merely an adjustment in style. Less blocky and more like the Iron Cross, but still represents the German military. It never stood for Nazis, it was for the Heer, Kriegsmarine, and the Luftwaffe. While they carried out military action for the Nazi government, that symbol is not inherently a Nazi symbol.

No, it's most definitely a swastika on the tail of Luftwaffe aircraft (or "Hakenkreuz"), maybe my picture wasn't clear enough. The cross on the wing and fuselage are "Balkenkreuz".



Because you're not allowed to have the swastika on model planes in Germany, most box art of Luftwaffe aircraft will have either no tail marking or a diamond in place of the swastika. Sometimes kits wouldn't include a decal for the swastika, but rather include 4 L's or 2 Z's which could be constructed in to a swastika. Many kits these days do have a swastika, but you'll note that the swastikas are usually placed right at the end of the decal sheet so they can be cut off easily for kits that are going to be sold in Germany.

It's not even just German planes, allied planes often had kill markings that were swastikas as well.

http://www.ipmsusa.org/reviews/Archive/Kits/Aircraft/Hasegawa_48_Bf109G6/Hasegawa_48_Bf109G6.htm


http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/bf109e4dl_1.htm





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StygianBeach wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well you flag says you're from Germany, in Germany you're not allowed to display a swastika on anything that could be construed as a toy, which miniatures most certainly are. You aren't even allowed to have a swastika on an actual historical plastic model aircraft. So in Germany this wouldn't be allowed even though it's a historical representation of an actual aircraft...

Sure, Siegrunen are also banned. So anyone using Viking dice in saga, will they please roll the dice 1 at a time .

I doubt anyone would call the police over it though (unless there were other forces at play of course).

Yeah I'm not sure how seriously people take the law, but it's the one place where I wouldn't use swastikas on my models even if it's historically accurate. I've seen pictures from model shows where swastikas are either non-existent or have been covered up.

From what I understand, German laws allow the swastika to be used for "historical" representations, but whatever the governing body is decided that model aircraft are "toys" rather than historical representations. Which I think is a little bit harsh given modellers often work to represent a specific real-life aircraft.

I did not see the swastika on the tail in the first picture, I thought someone was being mistaken about the Balkancruz.

xraytango wrote:
Actually only the Nazi Swastika is banned, what is on that plane is the Landkruz and is found on modern German equipment.

Spoiler:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Leo2A6M_li.jpg/220px-Leo2A6M_li.jpg

It's a bad angle for it but if you look closely at the vertical stabilizer, there's an actual swastika.

EDIT: Ninja'd several times over....

Personally, historicals are historicals. Go with the history, unless stuck that way. Of course, I might use a different theme and call them alt-history/parallel universe.

SciFi/Fantasy settings, You should generally avoid making such open, blatant references and statements with models, but ultimately it's a case of freedom of expression to a point.

Of course, a lot of people forget, the swastika is still in use in one country's military - Finland. Blue swastika on White is their iconography.

I like my Kriegsmen grey, thank you very much, noone has complained about it, and woe befalls to anyone who does, because they're WW1 Germans, not WW2, l2history.

Since I work in computer games I deal with this topic a lot.

German versions of computer games are in many cases censored to meet the legal criteria of Germany (or self censor to avoid any potential conflict).

The laws in Germany a very detailed and can't be covered in a single post. A lot of symbols are not legal ... go to page 55 here to see an excerpt of illegal historical symbols:

https://www.verfassungsschutz.de/download/broschuere-2015-04-rechtsextremismus-symbole-zeichen-und-verbotene-organisationen.pdf

Even military medals were replaced with a no-swastika version and wearing the original is illegal. Vets had to trade in their old medals.

Another rule is that you can not "play as" certain individuals or organizations in games. That's why you don't see Hitler in the German version of Paradox Games' Iron Hearts games.

Apart from the law, people won't think it is cool to show up with an SS army at a wargaming event in Germany although some might be OK with it. It is still a touchy topic.

Sig or other runes are not illegal as a whole, it depends on the context.

I don't have a problem with German ww2 themed sci fi armies, and I wouldn't be bothered if they used swastikas. That being said I'd never want to offend anyone, and would be mortified if one of my army themes did so, and so wouldn't do it on that basis.
On a side note, anyone remember the tv series 'V'? The alien invaders and their methods were clearly based on the nazis and their symbol was practically the same as the swastika. Just thought I'd mention a use of Nazi themology in a Scifi environment

 Vulcan wrote:

xraytango wrote:
Actually only the Nazi Swastika is banned, what is on that plane is the Landkruz and is found on modern German equipment.

Spoiler:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Leo2A6M_li.jpg/220px-Leo2A6M_li.jpg

It's a bad angle for it but if you look closely at the vertical stabilizer, there's an actual swastika.

EDIT: Ninja'd several times over....

The angle is fine, it's just Dakka resizes images when you post them on the forum

I think there is something disturbingly dishonest about censoring history. I don't think painters of historical miniatures should be forced to shy away from historical accuracy, that would almost be like fascism come full circle.

There are also some pseudo-historical settings, such as Cthulhu and Indiana Jones, where I think Nazi iconography has a definite place.

For games like 40k, I think swastikas are in bad taste, and not really appropriate, however, I'm somewhat ambivalent, since I'm not, personally, going to get offended by them.

The black and red colour scheme is a great scheme though, especially for bad guys, I don't have any problem with that.

Ultimately, I think it really depends on the person with the army and their motivations. If they just did it because they're an inappropriate douche, or literally a racist, then it's probably not okay. On the other hand, if they've put a lot of work into paining up a space marine army, as a historically accurate German regiment because they're interested in history, then that might be okay... I wouldn't recommend it, but each to their own.

I see TONS of Valhallans and Vostroyan armies painted with hammer and sickle symbols, and the Soviet Russians alone (not even counting other communist countries) killed WAY more innocents than the Nazis ever did. As far as painting Steel Legion grey? I'll paint my Guardsmen however I want!

Sauragnmon wrote:

Of course, a lot of people forget, the swastika is still in use in one country's military - Finland. Blue swastika on White is their iconography.

Not true. It was the Finnish Air Force emblem 1918-1945. Retired for obvious reasons. (Bizarrely, it remain's on the flag of the Air Force Academy, though.)

Could have sworn it was still in use.. but then there is one difference between display for the two countries - Germany was in a diamond angle, while the Finnish one was always in square arrangement.

 Matthew wrote:
I just read an interesting conversation on Facebook where a guy was discouraged from painting Steel Legion in grey colours to avoid looking like WWII germans.

Germany is an existing country, German soldiers in WW2 happened, grey is not their exclusive colour, a silly reason to avoid.

That got me thinking, how far can you go?

If people can convert marines into "My Little Pony" or "Hello Kitten" I think pretty darn far is possible.

Can you make a nazi IG army?

I would say it would raise the question why you want a "specific" WW2 army in your 40k fluff.

Can a Bolt action player paint german crosses and nazi symbols on his SS regiment?

Some people would like some accuracy in their reenactments: it is one thing to present facts rather than pretend they do not exist.
Gaming I am unsure we can call an actual "glorification" of the actual subject.
You will not see me getting dressed in their uniform to get into the spirit of things.
I started collecting a German army (already have a US one) for Bolt Action and find it interesting how ignorant I am on the various kit the Axis and Allies had to use.
It gives a better appreciation of just how nasty that war was.

Where do we draw the line?

This is leisure.
Not performance art or a political statement.
How offensive my models can be is in direct proportion to how serious I am about what they represent.
I am not getting into this as a means to start an ideology discussion, I doubt many would.

"Where to draw the line?"
Do we model a concentration camp enacting the holocaust?
Is it OK if the scenario is to free them?
Does it make me bad if I play the defending Germans?
Is a secondary objective to kill the prisoners prior to the Allies taking it OK?

Personally I picked the above topic because it is in "bad taste" in my mind.

I agree, history should never be censored in any way. Every aspect is a part of teaching it. But distasteful parts should only ever have a historically appropriate use. No Nazi symbols on anything that is not 100% representative of actual Nazi material. Or the Hammer/Sickle, or the Rising Sun, etc.

Grimm, I bet a lot of Japanese feel the same way about the USAF emblem, especially the ones who lost family at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or in the firebombing campaigns. Likewise the Germans who lost family in the strategic bombing campaign in Europe. By your logic that symbol should never be used except in strictly historical replications either, as it symbolizes a military branch that killed millions of innocent civilians.

And we won't get into the heraldries of the generals in the 30 Years War where millions more innocent civilians were killed as their armies pillaged the Germanies.

To be frank, if we get right down to the nitty-gritty, it is probably nearly impossible to find a historic military symbology that doesn't have SOME sort of atrocity attached to it if you dig deep enough.

It seems to come down to the players' personal decisions about what they're really comfortable with taking the role of more frequently than it does to their concerns about offending people, to me. I've heard people preemptively reminding others that their Bolt Action Germans are ordinary Wermacht and have no swastikas, I've never heard anyone get offended about the paint scheme on someone else's army.

I suspect your distance from any particularly heinous actions associated with symbols on your miniatures is also a big part of it; the Teutonic Knights and the Kingdom of Prussia may or may not have done unpleasant things, but they're both too long ago and too far removed from our awareness (at least here in America) for anyone to be offended by Infinity Teutonic Knights or the Raven Guard.

In practice it's an issue that doesn't come up very much; if a cultural taboo over a given symbol is strong enough that people would be offended by its display it's also usually taboo enough that people don't want to associate themselves with it by painting it on their models. People with the time and patience to build an army of expensive toy soldiers aren't likely to decide to slather them in swastikas for shock value, most of us aren't immature enough to think offending people on purpose is amusing and aren't willing to take the risk of having our hard work banned from display.

So I suppose the bottom line of all of this is that we're harder on ourselves about offensive symbols than other people would be, since we're the ones who have to be seen carrying the banner and whatever nastiness it might represent.

If I were painting a WW2 German army, I'd put the appropriate markings on. Someone's got to play the baddies, and just because you play Germans, Japanese, Taliban or whatever doesn't mean you agree with those beliefs. Mind you, there are a few (not all, but a few) historical gamers who play SS forces in wargames because they have an unhealthy obsession with Naziism. Anyone who was at Salute 2007 might know the type. Thankfully it's been a long time since I saw one of those horrendous "tour" t-shirts.

Dream Pod 9, conscious of Germany's laws against depicting the Swastika, simply used the Balkan cross in place of the Swastika. The fact that it was an alt-hist setting helped too.

With a fictional army? I'd say the camo patterns are fair play, as are the shapes of the uniforms and equipment (for example: Steel Legion, 2nd edition Cadians and Star Wars Stormtroopers), but the iconography? Nah. Something angular in red, white and black is fine, but Imperial Guard with actual Nazi swastikas? That's indefensible, IMO.

If you really want to confuse people, paint up some US Army 45th Infantry Division troops, circa 1930 (I'll leave potential opposition as an exercise for the reader).

 Matthew wrote:
Hmm... I would LOVE to paint a God Emperor Trump. Any ideas for a suitable model?

Don't know about an Emperor, but what about a Baron?

https://www.facebook.com/Hasslefriesian/photos/a.1729899647229813.1073741860.1513834622169651/1847569238796186/?type=3&theater

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
/Snip

If you really want to confuse people, paint up some US Army 45th Infantry Division troops, circa 1930 (I'll leave potential opposition as an exercise for the reader).

Almost as much fun as doing the 42nd Infantry Division USA from WWII..

Seriously I have in a box in the attic a 1/485th scale SS Panzer Grenadier division (17th)..I got the iconography as close as possible ..but its all to little for most to see..None found it offensive at the time..now is a differnent story

 Matthew wrote:
Hmm... I would LOVE to paint a God Emperor Trump. Any ideas for a suitable model?

Hasslefree just released a model inspired by the Orange One (NSFW because "spaceclad"): Archbaron Drumpf. A variant with garb befitting a space-faring baron is on its way if you don't have the patience to sculpt robes on him yourself.

If you want to have an army of space nazis, paint a swastika on them. if you want to have a tallarn army painted in mostly black with arabic flags, do it. people might not understand it or like it but why would it matter what other people think? i live in america so i guess i might be a little biased with the whole freedom thing but do what makes you happy. lord knows the models are expensive enough why wouldnt you paint them the way that aesthetically suits you?

imperial players cant really complain about racist iconography , since so much official cannon denotes genocide for even slight mutation , racial purity , and religious intolerance . its in the fluff , but people have no problem with THAT aspect of the game when choosing their armies .........

 samcastronovo wrote:
If you want to have an army of space nazis, paint a swastika on them. if you want to have a tallarn army painted in mostly black with arabic flags, do it. people might not understand it or like it but why would it matter what other people think? i live in america so i guess i might be a little biased with the whole freedom thing but do what makes you happy. lord knows the models are expensive enough why wouldnt you paint them the way that aesthetically suits you?

There's a difference between having the freedom to do something, and then having the intelligence to realize it's in bad taste.

And, of course, there's also the freedom of other people to tell you to grow up before finding someone else to play against.

 infinite_array wrote:

 samcastronovo wrote:
If you want to have an army of space nazis, paint a swastika on them. if you want to have a tallarn army painted in mostly black with arabic flags, do it. people might not understand it or like it but why would it matter what other people think? i live in america so i guess i might be a little biased with the whole freedom thing but do what makes you happy. lord knows the models are expensive enough why wouldnt you paint them the way that aesthetically suits you?

There's a difference between having the freedom to do something, and then having the intelligence to realize it's in bad taste.

And, of course, there's also the freedom of other people to tell you to grow up before finding someone else to play against.

And you also have the freedom to wonder why people are more concerned with the symbol of a violent genocidal regime instead of the concept of a violent genocidal regime, which the Imperium already is.

An important thing to remember with the swastika is that it predates Nazi Germany by thousands of years. Hitler reversed the direction that you will usually find it running in, but even Jewish temples used to use it at one point.

In India, it (opposite direction to the Nazi one) is plastered on all sorts of things. Often to bring good luck. I have to say, it was a bit jarring to see it's prevalence there the first time, but it has significant religious meaning to Hindus.

Ancient Native American symbology can be found to have swastikas in rock carvings, viking era carvings have been found with them, etc.

What is perhaps more shocking is the acceptance of Soviet or Chinese symbology, as they made the Nazis look like choir boys in comparison in terms of mass murder.

In the end, I would not use it, but on historical models it does have a purpose. One could do an Indian themed army and run it in reverse to educate people on the fact that it is a pretty universal symbol, still in heavy use today in various places of the world, usually by those the Nazis would have been trying to kill.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
An important thing to remember with the swastika is that it predates Nazi Germany by thousands of years. Hitler reversed the direction that you will usually find it running in, but even Jewish temples used to use it at one point.

In India, it (opposite direction to the Nazi one) is plastered on all sorts of things. Often to bring good luck. I have to say, it was a bit jarring to see it's prevalence there the first time, but it has significant religious meaning to Hindus.

Ancient Native American symbology can be found to have swastikas in rock carvings, viking era carvings have been found with them, etc.

What is perhaps more shocking is the acceptance of Soviet or Chinese symbology, as they made the Nazis look like choir boys in comparison in terms of mass murder.

In the end, I would not use it, but on historical models it does have a purpose. One could do an Indian themed army and run it in reverse to educate people on the fact that it is a pretty universal symbol, still in heavy use today in various places of the world, usually by those the Nazis would have been trying to kill.

Actually both left and right facing swastikas are used outside of Nazism.

The swastika you'll usually find associated with Hindus, Buddhists and Jains is usually the same direction as the Nazi version, the only real difference was the Nazi version is typically angled 45 degrees (though I've seen some angled ones on the subcontinent as well, it doesn't seem as common).





It's an odd myth that Nazis reversed the swastika... it's odd because you can literally just look at all the swastikas on Hindu stuff and see it's the same direction as the Nazi symbol so I have no idea how such a myth got started.

It'd be interesting to see what sort of response you'd get if you showed up to a game with an army covered in swastikas and said "nah, they're not Nazi, they're Hindu".

Would that being like a Native American Superman with a swastika on his chest saying, "To my people, this symbol means Good Luck"?

Still, symbols have their appropriate place, and it's dumb just to misuse them to get a rise out of people, even if it's only because those people are ignorant.

Perhaps, I've always seen the satirical parts of 40k and thought it'd be a decent place to have an army that pokes fun at Nazism alongside the obvious genocidal tendancies of the Imperium. The way GW painted the Cadian banner always struck me as having taken inspiration from Nazi flags, but maybe they got it from somewhere else.

I guess I just find it odd how people can get offended by a symbol more than they get offended by the very fact we're playing a game that trivialises war. We are literally getting enjoyment out of the concept of war.

On the few occasions I've spoken to people genuinely impacted by war it can make wargames feel rather hollow afterwards and I don't feel any moral high ground of "well at least I didn't play a 40k army with Nazi symbols on it!".

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
An important thing to remember with the swastika is that it predates Nazi Germany by thousands of years. Hitler reversed the direction that you will usually find it running in, but even Jewish temples used to use it at one point.

In India, it (opposite direction to the Nazi one) is plastered on all sorts of things. Often to bring good luck. I have to say, it was a bit jarring to see it's prevalence there the first time, but it has significant religious meaning to Hindus.

Ancient Native American symbology can be found to have swastikas in rock carvings, viking era carvings have been found with them, etc.

What is perhaps more shocking is the acceptance of Soviet or Chinese symbology, as they made the Nazis look like choir boys in comparison in terms of mass murder.

In the end, I would not use it, but on historical models it does have a purpose. One could do an Indian themed army and run it in reverse to educate people on the fact that it is a pretty universal symbol, still in heavy use today in various places of the world, usually by those the Nazis would have been trying to kill.

Actually both left and right facing swastikas are used outside of Nazism.

The swastika you'll usually find associated with Hindus, Buddhists and Jains is usually the same direction as the Nazi version, the only real difference was the Nazi version is typically angled 45 degrees (though I've seen some angled ones on the subcontinent as well, it doesn't seem as common).





It's an odd myth that Nazis reversed the swastika... it's odd because you can literally just look at all the swastikas on Hindu stuff and see it's the same direction as the Nazi symbol so I have no idea how such a myth got started.

It'd be interesting to see what sort of response you'd get if you showed up to a game with an army covered in swastikas and said "nah, they're not Nazi, they're Hindu".

When I was in India, it was in the reverse orientation where I saw it. Regardless, would be interesting as you say.

Where abouts in India? Clockwise or right facing is the most common orientation in Hinduism and Jainism which is the same the Nazis used. Some say the clockwise version is a symbol of light, the sun, evolution and the god Vishnu while the left facing one (not the one the Nazis used) is darkness, night, involution and the god Kali. I don't know how many Hindus actually believe that though. When it comes to Hindu temples I've usually only seen the right facing version, sometimes in walls they'll do brickwork what looks like a right facing version from inside but left facing from the outside.

Apparently Buddhists prefer the left facing version, I guess I haven't been to many Buddhist temples to see.

To be honest I don't really know much about the Hindu version in spite of a large chunk of my family being Indian and Hindu Most of my preceding generations converted to christianity and didn't have a lot to do with Hinduism after that. I only go back to India every 4 or 5 years, while the family is lovely it's not usually my destination of choice for a holiday.