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I just read an interesting conversation on Facebook where a guy was discouraged from painting Steel Legion in grey colours to avoid looking like WWII germans. That got me thinking, how far can you go? Can you make a nazi IG army? Can a Bolt action player paint german crosses and nazi symbols on his SS regiment? Where do we draw the line?

On historical miniatures? Damn right I would paint Nazi symbols on them where fitting. Can you even play SS regiments in Bolt Action, though? I don't think Wehrmacht soldiers had Nazi symbols on them, the Iron Cross is not a Nazi symbol.

On fictional miniatures? If I wanted that, I would paint them up in Wehrmacht or whatever colours, but without clear symbolism.

I think it depends on where you are from and with whom you game with.

I try to avoid WW2 minis altogether largely due to my Wife.
It is crazy for me to think that my own home had Nazi flags hanging from the windows up until the Americans came marching into the town, then they were quickly removed, hidden, then destroyed.

If it fits the army and the narrative, then I see no issue.

If you're doing it to be deliberately controversial or edgy, then probably not.

I think you're likely to draw a few odd looks if you applied the nazi theme to your IG, so personally I'd avoid it as it could potentially limit where you use that army.

I'm pretty sure if TV, film and literature can base different factions on Nazi Germany, or at least their uniforms (Star wars anyone?) You could get away with painting them in any kind of camouflage or similar colours.

I've seen Kasrkin painted in both oak leaf and pea dot patterns before and they looked stunning. Most people wouldn't know they were SS camouflage patterns anyway.

 Matthew wrote:
I just read an interesting conversation on Facebook where a guy was discouraged from painting Steel Legion in grey colours to avoid looking like WWII germans. That got me thinking, how far can you go? Can you make a nazi IG army? Can a Bolt action player paint german crosses and nazi symbols on his SS regiment? Where do we draw the line?

The funny part is that WW2 and WW1 germans uniforms were not grey, that's a common misperception. "Fieldgrey" is green.

I'd have no issues using fieldgrey on DKOK or Steel Legion.

For historical wargaming it seems fitting to use symbols as was historically correct. Like swastikas on JU 87s. Note that this is illegal in Germany.

I would never use Nazi symbols (swastika, SS runes, etc.) on fictional armies, those insignia are political and I would question the intent of building such an army.

I've been accused of playing with an "offensive" army ... He called the TO over and accused me of having "Nazi symbols" on a tank.

My Grey Knights, led by an inquisitor and retinue. The Tank in question was a rhino with a banner. A red one, with a white circle, and a LARGE BLACK INQUSITORIAL =I= on it.

 Matthew wrote:
I just read an interesting conversation on Facebook where a guy was discouraged from painting Steel Legion in grey colours to avoid looking like WWII germans.

This is just stupid. Gray is a legitimate color for an army, unless there are real-world symbols or references included then merely painting an army gray does not associate it with WWII Germany.

Historical minis being historical is the exact opposite of a problem. If you actually have models of Nazi troopers and vehicles, it stands to reason that they'd have the associated iconography.

The exception being, of course, if you actually live in Germany where those signs are illegal.

When it comes to non-historical models I'd say don't do it. Copying uniform design and coloration (let's be honest, the Third Reitch had some pretty slick uniforms) is fine. Actually putting Swastikas and such.. Not so much.

Someone has to play the enemy, or it's Brits fighting the US one week, and the French the next.
So, make them look correct, as that is a big part of the hobby for some people.
Then you get into the whole timescale thing. When did that symbol/vehicle/uniform start getting used? Separate issue.

I don't do historicals, but if I did, it'd have to be correct.

It's funny to me that the main focus is on Germany and Nazis, rather than any of the Axis powers. We don't cause a fuss if somebody has a Japanese theme, despite them being the only Axis power to put boots onto United States soil during the war....

I'm in the same boat as others though. Military uniforms were designed for a reason and they developed along parallel lines. Coloration, camouflage, and design elements are all fair game in this hobby. Political symbols, on the other hand, make an exact statement and should be avoided unless you are prepared to deal with people who are opposed to that statement.

Still waiting to see "God Emperor Trump" painted onto a Land Raider.



When I used to play Flames of War, I had an Italian Tank Company. I painted it as appropriate to the time, I can't imagine why you wouldn't. Historicals are a whole other ballpark. The designs, colors, and markings are all pretty important to the historical accuracy and I don't see it as a problem if they are represented as such. In this case, the political symbols are not so much of a statement, just an accurate recreation. It's only when you apply those historical political themes onto non-historic miniatures and armies that you run into the problems.

Hmm... I would LOVE to paint a God Emperor Trump. Any ideas for a suitable model?

This is an interesting debate I encountered myself quite early on when I started taking commissions. A chap asked for his (very old) imperial guard to be done in a german theme, which was fine, but he also wanted the standards to be copied from some examples of german WWII designs.

I thought about it a bit and came to the conclusion that symbols have as much power and meaning as we give them. He wasn't a nazi himself, nor anything of the sort, but enjoyed the colours used and the assosciation with the strict and regimented might of the Reicht in WWII.

I pretty much decided each to his own and it's harmless, really. He likes the army he has for the colours and contrasts, and for everyone else - your goal in the game is to kill his troops and defeat his army, so it's no worse than playing any number of computer games.

Can't play Steel Legion - look like Germans
Can't play Valhallans - look like Red Army
Can't play Praetorians - look like colonial British
Can't play Tallarns - might be mistaken for Taliban
Can't play Catachans - Vietnam was bad
Can't play Mordians - Prussians were no saints
Can't play Cadians - look like Starship Troopers dudes

Chaos Marines are fine though - they don't look like real world soldiers.



(Codex: Armageddon included a grey colour scheme for the Steel Legion).

wait - Starship troopers are real world soldiers?


I KNEW IT

German cross is fine if you want German... Its still used by German army today.

German grey is grey... Its a good grey.
Its not like painting SS symbols on guard.

Its a line... But grey is grey not nazi automatically.
Anyway SS was black in dress uniform. ... Not grey.

I personally would paint and play controversial armies, but I draw the line on adding the symbolism associated with those armies. No Nazi symbols. No Confederate flags.

When I started fow I decided on DAK. A friend and I wanted to do mainly North Africa stuff. I asked about German dice for game and owner came out with DAK dice (which has Nazi symbol) and SS dice. I almost died of embarrassment. I decided to use the grey German dice from the starter. It has symbol of iron cross which is the german army, not political troops.

To be honest, if the historical war gaming community is like any other historical enthusiast society then NOT using the absolute correct paint/camo/markings will leave you open to some serious nerd rage from other players(!)

But if you carry those symbols over into a fictional setting, then you are making a political statement and not a good one at that. Even if it's only "I think swastikas look cool and am willing to overlook all of the horrible things they represent", that's not OK and you maybe need to contemplate on what you're doing.

Anyone playing Historicals and not expecting a historically accurate army needs to go find another game - quickly!!

I am sure there are many people that would be offended at seeing swastikas painted on tiny soldiers. Certainly history is full of nations and races that suffered at the hands of other nations and terrible memories are stirred.

But, to be involved in playing a game (or even casually observing the game) where historically accurate army depiction is the norm and you are offended? OFGS, go take a pill and lie down...

For historical I like them to look right, SS look like SS, Japanese look like Japanese etc.

Nothing to do with 'glorification' of the regimes, but of the models looking better in those colours.

For non-historical it gets a bit more blurred, if you have the theme then go for it, my IG armour is in late war WW2 German colours, though the symbol isn't german - the Kanji for mountain in black, bordered white, german style, but not german.

The infantry are mostly a plain light/dark grey scheme thats not german at all.

Has raised a few eyebrows from people who think they are seeing something they are not.

The Bolt Action and FoW guys have had a bit of praise for the paint jobs, only one guy - not a gamer - raised an eyebrow that I had Germans.

I said someone had to play the baddies, and noted I also had Soviets, British and Americans at which point he lost interest

It's entirely point of view as well, as someone said earlier, it's funny that this becomes entirely a german/WWII/Nazi symbol debate.

Ask anyone who doesn't like america and the stars and stripes are bad. Look back a few years and the scots would hate the english flag and the english would hate the scots'.

When you're painting historically then I see zero problem with using the appropriate symbols and colours of that history. Trying to whitewash the past and pretend the germans in WWII had a pretty pink unicorn symbol is silly.

When it comes to a sci-fi setting... countless books, songs, tv shows and movies draw on influences from history. The way to make an imaginary setting real is to include out of place but familiar elements. There is a metric bum-load of crucifix style crosses and crowns, cherubs and skulls and what have you in warhammer fantasy and 40k, do we bat an eyelid? No.

Yet the symbol of the crucifix has been used on hundreds of standards and banners for armies for a thousand years.

In my humble opinion, as soon as you start trying to ban symbols you need to ban them all.

I have no problem with WW2 themes in wargames, even if it's just used as satire, but some people will get their knickers in a twist over it. Nazi imagery is used in art both for historical reasons and also satire so I don't really see a problem myself.

If it's just "grey", well, grey is a pretty standard uniform colour as has already been pointed out so no big deal.

 StygianBeach wrote:
I think it depends on where you are from and with whom you game with.

I try to avoid WW2 minis altogether largely due to my Wife.
It is crazy for me to think that my own home had Nazi flags hanging from the windows up until the Americans came marching into the town, then they were quickly removed, hidden, then destroyed.

Well you flag says you're from Germany, in Germany you're not allowed to display a swastika on anything that could be construed as a toy, which miniatures most certainly are. You aren't even allowed to have a swastika on an actual historical plastic model aircraft. So in Germany this wouldn't be allowed even though it's a historical representation of an actual aircraft...

My main concern about having historically accurate ww2 Germans, swastikas and all, is that it'll attract actual fascists and Neo-Nazis, who may misconstrue 'historical accuracy' with tolerance of their views.

Actually only the Nazi Swastika is banned, what is on that plane is the Landkruz and is found on modern German equipment.

I never understood the need to ignore and gloss over history, just because people get offended about everything, especially when 90% of those people are morons who have no reason for the outrage other than attention. Only real-life witnesses have a reason to be offended.

Historical games and real-life reenactments for that matter are a complete waste of time if you pick and choose what can be portrayed. Pretty soon the newer generations are going to have no correct idea what even happened in such world history changing events other than the PC version, which is usually horribly innaccurate.

If you can't handle historically accurate "bad guys" in wargames, you need to not stick your nose into those wargames.

I know American Civil war reeinactors(was one for years) who have been booed and cornered by irate public attendees for portraying Southern troops. It's a war with two freaking opposing forces -What the hell do they want to see? Union Soldiers drilling and shooting at target dummies? My father got cornered once like that.

Historical games with toy soldiers are even more of a stupid situation.

It's a safe space, trigger warning, everyone is special, participation prize, bottle of sanitizer everywhere, world we live in today.

Sharp edges, mud, bugs, critical thinking, and opposing ideas are no longer welcome.

xraytango wrote:
Actually only the Nazi Swastika is banned, what is on that plane is the Landkruz and is found on modern German equipment.

Spoiler:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Leo2A6M_li.jpg/220px-Leo2A6M_li.jpg

Check out the top of the tail...

I'm not sure I see the difference between demonizing the appropriate use of a logo a despised military force wore (not just swastika, anything else either) and perfect accurate depictions of all the wargear they used to actually kill people being perfectly ok.

There are several thousand commonly seen items that say "WW2 Germany" besides the Swastika. They are all legitimate focuses for teaching.

What if I want a figure of a Native American in a wargame that showcases the "real" swastika for good luck?

Merely an adjustment in style. Less blocky and more like the Iron Cross, but still represents the German military. It never stood for Nazis, it was for the Heer, Kriegsmarine, and the Luftwaffe. While they carried out military action for the Nazi government, that symbol is not inherently a Nazi symbol.

Given how detail-oriented historical gamers are, I would be surprised at any kind of commentary against using accurate symbols from the gamers themselves.

Obviously social media will explode because the safe-space babies aren't part of the hobby and these precious snowflakes on these social networks enjoy making non-issues of this type of stuff because it boosts their SJW credibility and is plain virtue signaling.

Painting swastikas on armies unrelated to historical gaming is just being provocative though, I'm sure everyone would agree on that, of course.

My Steel Legion are painted the standard drab scheme because I think it looks perfect. I didn't know GW had an official grey scheme in the Armageddon book. I can't find it online, can someone post some pics so I can see? Might make a single squad that color to use as some kind of special ops or something, wouldn't mind changing the painting up a bit!

Found it (view image to see full thing if the browser doesn't resize it):