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Sigmar can "win or lose" in AoS.

Win: Bloodily reclaims the realms one by one and unites the forces of Order, Destruction and Death to drive chaos out and seal the All-gates, which allows the realm of chaos to invade the other realms. (Iirc)

Lose: Sigmar's realm, the last true bastion of Order, is breached and is overwhelmed by the endless hordes of chaos. Then it's only a matter of time as the other realms and their gods are ground down by the unending daemon tides.

I personal give Sigmar a pass on his more "extreme" actions as he doesn't have enough room to make mistakes. If Azyrheim falls then there's no one left to turn the tide as everyone else is just trying to hold their own.

Honestly at this point I think sigmar is slowly putting destruction as an enemy considering the events of the all - gates campaign book and the same with Death going by lord of undeath and All - gates.

A necromancer in the realm gate book raises an interesting point that sigmar wants an alliance now but after that his gaze would fall on them if and when he finally deals with chaos. Considering the nature of vampires, necromancers etc and the magic they employ.

Oh? I haven't read that one yet. What happened with Destruction?

(Though of course it's rather easy to see why Destruction and Death aren't high on Sigmar's close allies list. )

Baron Klatz wrote:
Oh? I haven't read that one yet. What happened with Destruction?

(Though of course it's rather easy to see why Destruction and Death aren't high on Sigmar's close allies list. )

Yeah Gordrakk the fist of gork was leading a massive waaagh all the forces of destruction are being dragged into it because they like fighting. Right stormcast were fighting chaos attacking the All - gate of ghur the stormcast leading them saw Gordrakk and due to the events of the fury of gork book most stormcast see him as an ally.

He went down to his forces met gordrakk face to face bowed and before he could speak Gordrakk planted an axe in his head and his forces trampled chaos and stormcast.

But hey at least chaos now longer controls the All - gate!

Honestly that is not even the most funny bit the destruction story was so dam great in the book.

I think they do, only that they've lost the Jade Gate and the Maw Gate... maybe the Ulgu and Hysh's gates too. Still we must remember he was allied to both greenskins and undead prior to the whole clusterfeth. Maybe establishing a few checks but maintain them as they can have their uses, with the proper guidance.

Lord Kragan wrote:
I think they do, only that they've lost the Jade Gate and the Maw Gate... maybe the Ulgu and Hysh's gates too. Still we must remember he was allied to both greenskins and undead prior to the whole clusterfeth. Maybe establishing a few checks but maintain them as they can have their uses, with the proper guidance.

Problem is that they don't want sigmar's guidance and that's the one thing he likes doing. Even Alarielle does not trust him entirely and knows at some point they may come to blows in the future.

 shinros wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
I think they do, only that they've lost the Jade Gate and the Maw Gate... maybe the Ulgu and Hysh's gates too. Still we must remember he was allied to both greenskins and undead prior to the whole clusterfeth. Maybe establishing a few checks but maintain them as they can have their uses, with the proper guidance.

Problem is that they don't want sigmar's guidance and that's the one thing he likes doing. Even Alarielle does not trust him entirely and knows at some point they may come to blows in the future.

Maybe he gets character development? Doesn't mean the alliance must be a situation where people is at ease. Maybe have a set up like the united states federation: the incarnates have a say in their realsm but Sigmar coordinates the overall picture with their councel. I, of course, would vote for Gork as president, and Mork as vice president... or is the other way around?

TheCustomLime wrote:

broxus wrote:
Well Sigmar is alive and the emperor is dead so their is that.

So far. What we are seeing could be an Age of Sigmar equivalent of the Great Crusade. Now we wait for the Horus Heresy.

As how much I complain about things being rehashed and done to death, that is what I am doing with my ever slow building army. The few Stormcast eternals I use have woke up and go against Sigmar the Coward. Then again I don't consider myself a professional or even an amateur so of course my fluff will be horrible.

I don't know about him in AoS, but for Old World Sigmar, this is definitely true.
Sigmar actually managed to forge alliances with other races, did not try to enforce any kind of weirdo ideology and did not cause a civil war by being a huge douchebag. Sigmar was just an all-around nice guy. Plus, he was just an ordinary guy with a hammer, whereas the Emperor was more like a god.

Thing is Iron_Capitan he is a god in Age of Sigmar.

I hate to sound like a heretic; but Sigmar does seem to be more physically active

 Skymate wrote:
I hate to sound like a heretic; but Sigmar does seem to be more physically active

Considering the state the emperor is in at the moment how can he be active?

He has been turned into a light house. Due to half his sons drinking from the cup of chaos.

Baron Klatz wrote:
Sigmar can "win or lose" in AoS.

Win: Bloodily reclaims the realms one by one and unites the forces of Order, Destruction and Death to drive chaos out and seal the All-gates, which allows the realm of chaos to invade the other realms. (Iirc)

So chaos retreats elsewhere and comes back with infinite daemons and what else. If simply sealing gates would be permanent don't you think chaos would have already done it? What can be sealed can be broken. And you cannot kill chaos entirely so no matter how many you kill they can always come back for more.

Lose: Sigmar's realm, the last true bastion of Order, is breached and is overwhelmed by the endless hordes of chaos. Then it's only a matter of time as the other realms and their gods are ground down by the unending daemon tides.

At which point Sigmar retreats, recreates more sigmarines and comes back for another one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 shinros wrote:

 Skymate wrote:
I hate to sound like a heretic; but Sigmar does seem to be more physically active

Considering the state the emperor is in at the moment how can he be active?

He has been turned into a light house. Due to half his sons drinking from the cup of chaos.

Physically no. But he does influence the galaxy plus offer council.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

broxus wrote:
Well Sigmar is alive and the emperor is dead so their is that.

So far. What we are seeing could be an Age of Sigmar equivalent of the Great Crusade. Now we wait for the Horus Heresy.

Ehm, not really. As far as I remember the great crusade was against xenos and people didn't know of chaos. Her the fight is against chaos and with the support (occasional) of xenos and there's the fact that they can cleanse chaos (like the case of Torglug).

Well it's not a 1-to-1 analogy but there are some parallels. Sigmar, like the Emperor, saw a realm in metaphorical or literal chaos and decided to bring order to that. He created armies of super soldiers to bring his law into other realms and drive away the evils that have beset the innocent people in the lands. He's also shown himself to a brutal overlord who is not afraid to commit horrible acts of murder if it even remotely suits him.

Unless i'm outdated on my fluff, Sigmar fights for the betterment of all people and realms. The God Emperor just sits on a throne, enslaving people to keep him alive.

The Master of Mankind book shows that the Emperor is a massive jackwad, and so is the Ten Thousand. But boy did that man dream big.

Ironically enough, the destruction and fall of humanity is being staved off by the feeding of a thousand souls a day to the Golden Throne; the constant pruning of psykers is preventing Humanity from evolving into a fully psychic race like the eldar had, thus preventing their final fall.

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
Unless i'm outdated on my fluff, Sigmar fights for the betterment of all people and realms. The God Emperor just sits on a throne, enslaving people to keep him alive.

The Emperors plan was to try and get rid of Chaos. Only problem is that he's stupid.

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
Unless i'm outdated on my fluff, Sigmar fights for the betterment of all people and realms. The God Emperor just sits on a throne, enslaving people to keep him alive.

Mind you I can be missing things because I didn't buy the $100 give or take, but I haven't read anyone say stories of Sigmar fighting at all. He now send his troops to do his bidding. Also what happens once Sigmar wins? What if you don't follow or worship Sigmar what happens? Now I can be wrong and please correct me, but just like in 40K, you don't have a choice. You need to worship the God Emperor just like you have to worship Sigmar. That doesn't sound like the betterment of all people.

Also if Sigmar is not Sigmar the Coward how come he closed his gates for all the people who needed in? How many got slaughtered because he closed the gates? How come he is such a coward he will not fight but has others to do his bidding?

Davor wrote:

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
Unless i'm outdated on my fluff, Sigmar fights for the betterment of all people and realms. The God Emperor just sits on a throne, enslaving people to keep him alive.

Mind you I can be missing things because I didn't buy the $100 give or take, but I haven't read anyone say stories of Sigmar fighting at all. He now send his troops to do his bidding. Also what happens once Sigmar wins? What if you don't follow or worship Sigmar what happens? Now I can be wrong and please correct me, but just like in 40K, you don't have a choice. You need to worship the God Emperor just like you have to worship Sigmar. That doesn't sound like the betterment of all people.

Also if Sigmar is not Sigmar the Coward how come he closed his gates for all the people who needed in? How many got slaughtered because he closed the gates? How come he is such a coward he will not fight but has others to do his bidding?

Interesting philosophical questions. But as for your first statements, you are right, he sends the Eternals to do his bidding, but in the AoS timeline, I'm presuming that's just been like a few months. Before that, he himself was doing the fighting during the Age of Myth and Age of Chaos. From what I remember at least.

Davor wrote:

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
Unless i'm outdated on my fluff, Sigmar fights for the betterment of all people and realms. The God Emperor just sits on a throne, enslaving people to keep him alive.

Mind you I can be missing things because I didn't buy the $100 give or take, but I haven't read anyone say stories of Sigmar fighting at all. He now send his troops to do his bidding. Also what happens once Sigmar wins? What if you don't follow or worship Sigmar what happens? Now I can be wrong and please correct me, but just like in 40K, you don't have a choice. You need to worship the God Emperor just like you have to worship Sigmar. That doesn't sound like the betterment of all people.

Also if Sigmar is not Sigmar the Coward how come he closed his gates for all the people who needed in? How many got slaughtered because he closed the gates? How come he is such a coward he will not fight but has others to do his bidding?

When Vandus is about to die Sigmar intervenes and saves him. When Bladestorm is in trouble, if I recall correctly, he also intervenes. He now seems to be acting more like a C&C type of fellow.

Davor, you know there's the other incarnate, don't you? Furthermore there's no statement that says that you're forced to worship Sigmar.

How many got slaughtered because he closed the gates?

How many would have gotten slaughtered if he hadn't, because it's made crystal clear that they are losing the war badly.

How badly would they have been losing the war if Sigmar didn't get distracted by the shiny objec - I mean, Nagash betraying him, and switch all his efforts from fighting Chaos to raaaaargh vengeance. That's not the act of someone fighting to save lives, that's the act of someone who either realized they just lost the game and can only drag one opponent down with them, or the act of someone whose ego outweighs his empathy and/or ability to focus on goals.

I think he's meant to be a heroic vengeful god, but he comes off as about as much of a gakhead as, say, Zeus.

 Spinner wrote:
How badly would they have been losing the war if Sigmar didn't get distracted by the shiny objec - I mean, Nagash betraying him, and switch all his efforts from fighting Chaos to raaaaargh vengeance. That's not the act of someone fighting to save lives, that's the act of someone who either realized they just lost the game and can only drag one opponent down with them, or the act of someone whose ego outweighs his empathy and/or ability to focus on goals.

I think he's meant to be a heroic vengeful god, but he comes off as about as much of a gakhead as, say, Zeus.

Honestly how the recent books are written it's not even clear who betrayed who, josh said nagash was first to join the pantheon and last to leave I do wish they go into more detail what happened. Since when they mentioned an alliance with sigmar in lord of undeath mannfred get's quite upset and ask's if nagash remembers what sigmar did in the past.

Of course when nagash got mannfred to hold a piece of the black pyramid he knew nagash is planning something bigger. Plus the news of sigmar stealing the souls of his warriors under him is not winning any points with nagash and sigmar messing with the cycle.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:] I'm presuming that's just been like a few months. Before that, he himself was doing the fighting during the Age of Myth and Age of Chaos. From what I remember at least.

Not sure what you mean by a few months. From what I gather this is thousands of years that Chaos has been "victorious" and only now Sigmar is coming out. So he has been hiding and cowering instead of helping for the last few thousand years while people were suffering. Some people claim he was "rebuilding" his army. If so how come he has gold cities and a space station. If you can build a space station and "teleport" your army troops, how come you can't teleport the people away? Such bad story writing in that regard.

Also seriously? Gold cities and throne rooms and what not? Like really you have people suffering but you take the time to make cities beautiful with artwork and what not? That is pathetic. People are suffering but you take time to design or approve peoples design. You are mining gold/what ever minerals to make these cities and what not. You are eating well, sleeping well in lavish rooms while people are suffering.

Even if these "cities" were build already how come he is still living a lavish lifestyle? How come the Stormcast eternal's armour are well adonred and fancy looking? Shouldn't they just be made to what is needed and function because of all the suffering? How would you feel you can't be saved because the armour needed extra work to be made so it can look pretty while your loved ones are suffering or could have been saved if they came out earlier but didn't because of fancy armour needing to be made?

Yeah he is no hero or God. He is only out for himself.

Lord Kragan wrote:
When Vandus is about to die Sigmar intervenes and saves him. When Bladestorm is in trouble, if I recall correctly, he also intervenes. He now seems to be acting more like a C&C type of fellow.

Didn't know that. So instead of saving others he sits behind while others do his work, but he only saves his higher ranked? What about the lower ranked Stormcasts? How come he doesn't help them out and save them? Also how can he save anyone? Once they die, don't they come back? Puzzled here.

Davor, you know there's the other incarnate, don't you? Furthermore there's no statement that says that you're forced to worship Sigmar.

What are the other incarnates? Again, after the dismal beginning of Age of Sigmar not really sure who the other incarnates are. Nagash? I am sure Sigmar will not let you worship him in his realms or behind his gates. Also the other ones, like the new Rat guy who replaced Slaneesh. (sorry keep forgetting names). He also has his priests correct? Are they not like the 40K church and they "help" you see the "light"? Not in a gentle way either if you don't.

How many got slaughtered because he closed the gates?

Because of the sloppy and pathetic writing in the beginning, I can't say. I am assuming millions if not billions because everything was in "thousands of years" on "different planes or worlds" So how many different planes and worlds are there? Again with sloppy writing 7 "main" worlds are there but they seem to be in "bubble" or just infinite land so again, I wold say millions but if it is "infinite with no endings" then there could be billions that Sigmar let die for thousands of years.

How many would have gotten slaughtered if he hadn't, because it's made crystal clear that they are losing the war badly.

Well considering there are only what a few thousand or tens of thousands of humans now, not many is there? So he let billions die just so he can save a few ten thousands that are left?

What's kinda funny is that there is a similar topic going on in the grand alliance forum. I personally enjoy the slippery slope sigmar is going down remember what he has been through. Almost all his problems were solved with him at the forefront with ghal maraz in hand, he was a barbarian, a king, then an emperor and then becomes a god. Through out all of that he watched the warhammer world their struggles, their loses and in the end when he took a mortal form again through franz.

He tells Archaon he weeped inside at his situation but now he joined the Arch enemy. When Archaon wanted an answer at a cruel destiny put on him by chaos he couldn't answer he was incapable of doing so.

Again as a god who can move about and is somewhat but not fully omnipotent he could fight against chaos to prevent what happened to the warhammer world.

The issue is though he is not omniscient hence why all the gods have their followers and champions doing stuff it's why mannfred tried his plan in the realm of ghur not shyish(until nagash dropped a wild Arkhan on him ) now suddenly humans and men turning around towards chaos wishing to destroy everything the pantheon built the same mistakes of the past repeating itself again. That's partly the reason why he locked his gates to survive yes but they note in the AOS blurb he was sickened to see what the mortal realms have become, think about it love or mostly hate end times all the other warhammer gods went through the same thing.

There is a reason why he blasts the men and woman apart who are becoming stormcasts in the "chamber of the broken world" there is significance to that and why sigmar has his generals and stormcast study the history of the warhammer world, the mistakes and the wars.

Their worlds were destroyed they came to the warhammer world and started again this time to perhaps push back and defeat chaos they were also once mortal just like sigmar, nagash etc think about Ulric's anger with the flames and how Teclis handled it and Asuryan picking Malekith of all people and what type of person he is. Perhaps such a person is needed to fight an defeat chaos? Now don't get me wrong I don't HATE the slippery slope sigmar is going down I actually enjoy it because the warhammer gods perhaps went through the same thing. Just look at Lileath and how she treated the Bretonnians was it a crappy thing to do? Perhaps but in the grand scheme of things it might of been necessary she lived through the destruction of her world she is doing all she can to prepare against chaos still even then that failed.

It makes warhammer more eeer lovecraft to me the endless hopeless cycle of war and people's attempts to stop the tide of chaos sacrificing things that what made them well them! Their mortal's, honor etc just for chaos to laugh at them. Perhaps with the current set of gods things would be different? Anyway this is just my view point on the subject.