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pm713 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I honestly don't understand anybody saying Dark Angels outside the fact they stereotypically use them in fluff. They're garbage in game. They cost more for no more benefits outside of what qualifies as basic Chapter Tactics, and getting TL for a turn isn't the greatest thing ever when you have their loadout.

Deathwing Knights, fast teleport homers, everyone auto-arriving on turn two from the formation, the 5pt Apothecary in the command squad, and the ability to mix weapons are a lot better than you're giving them credit for.

Am I the only one who doesn't like the Deathwing Apothecary?

Put a 5pt Apothecary upgrade in literally any squad in the game and it'd be a massive, massive deal.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I honestly don't understand anybody saying Dark Angels outside the fact they stereotypically use them in fluff. They're garbage in game. They cost more for no more benefits outside of what qualifies as basic Chapter Tactics, and getting TL for a turn isn't the greatest thing ever when you have their loadout.

Deathwing Knights, fast teleport homers, everyone auto-arriving on turn two from the formation, the 5pt Apothecary in the command squad, and the ability to mix weapons are a lot better than you're giving them credit for.

Am I the only one who doesn't like the Deathwing Apothecary?

Put a 5pt Apothecary upgrade in literally any squad in the game and it'd be a massive, massive deal.

I don't have to lose a power fist or pay a ridiculous amount first with other units.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I honestly don't understand anybody saying Dark Angels outside the fact they stereotypically use them in fluff. They're garbage in game. They cost more for no more benefits outside of what qualifies as basic Chapter Tactics, and getting TL for a turn isn't the greatest thing ever when you have their loadout.

Deathwing Knights, fast teleport homers, everyone auto-arriving on turn two from the formation, the 5pt Apothecary in the command squad, and the ability to mix weapons are a lot better than you're giving them credit for.

Deathwing Knights? You mean the things that NEVER make it to combat?
Auto Deep Strike when their ability after Deep Striking doesn't matter because of terrible weapon loadouts?
Mixing weapons? You mean how you take 1 or 2 TH/SS because you couldn't mean anything else, and ergo take away from an ability you're paying 5 points for?

No they're absolutely garbage. The cheaper starting cost and different loadouts for Grey Knights, CSM, and Space Wolves make them absolutely better.

And yeah you can get an Apothecary. And? Isn't that once per army anyway?

"Never" is a stretch, I see them make it to combat regularly. It's going to be a function of your playgroup but whether any Terminator list works at all is going to be a function of your playgroup, so it's not exactly unusual in that regard.

Anyone who dismisses the massive advantage of safe Deep Strike with reliable Reserves has obviously never played a game without them. Try playing a few games without it and you'll quickly realize the importance. Wraithblades are in theory better than Terminators; they don't have 2+ armour but they're T6, start at 30pts, and can run around with S6/AP3 at Initiative or S7/AP2 Unwieldy. The thing that makes them much, much worse than Terminators is the lack of delivery systems; they don't have access to assault transports and they can't Deep Strike. Give them auto-Deep Strike on turn two and put teleport homers on bikes and they'd go from gathering dust on the back of the shelf to every competitive list in a fraction of a second.

Mixing weapons lets you stick guns in units that aren't stuck with just powerfists. All Tactical Terminators are forced to pay to be jack-of-all-trades units, but they're not very good at it because powerfists on all models is a specialized loadout that doesn't help against a lot of units. Mixing weapons lets your Terminators be a non-terrible jack-of-all-trades unit. It isn't an ideal solution and it doesn't fix a lot of the problems Terminators have in the broader context of the game, but it does make them better Terminators than BA/vanilla Terminators that don't have the option.

Command Squads are just Elites choices this edition. In a CAD the only upside to regular Deathwing Terminators over Command Squads is the ability to take more than five models. They're 0-1 per Redemption Force, though, and since that's where you're probably playing them if you're trying to play a Deathwing army yes, you're probably not using very many.

Custodes.

pm713 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I honestly don't understand anybody saying Dark Angels outside the fact they stereotypically use them in fluff. They're garbage in game. They cost more for no more benefits outside of what qualifies as basic Chapter Tactics, and getting TL for a turn isn't the greatest thing ever when you have their loadout.

Deathwing Knights, fast teleport homers, everyone auto-arriving on turn two from the formation, the 5pt Apothecary in the command squad, and the ability to mix weapons are a lot better than you're giving them credit for.

Am I the only one who doesn't like the Deathwing Apothecary?

Put a 5pt Apothecary upgrade in literally any squad in the game and it'd be a massive, massive deal.

I don't have to lose a power fist or pay a ridiculous amount first with other units.

You're only losing two attacks to increase durability by 33%. If you don't understand how big of an advantage that is, there's no hope for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I honestly don't understand anybody saying Dark Angels outside the fact they stereotypically use them in fluff. They're garbage in game. They cost more for no more benefits outside of what qualifies as basic Chapter Tactics, and getting TL for a turn isn't the greatest thing ever when you have their loadout.

Deathwing Knights, fast teleport homers, everyone auto-arriving on turn two from the formation, the 5pt Apothecary in the command squad, and the ability to mix weapons are a lot better than you're giving them credit for.

Deathwing Knights? You mean the things that NEVER make it to combat?
Auto Deep Strike when their ability after Deep Striking doesn't matter because of terrible weapon loadouts?
Mixing weapons? You mean how you take 1 or 2 TH/SS because you couldn't mean anything else, and ergo take away from an ability you're paying 5 points for?

No they're absolutely garbage. The cheaper starting cost and different loadouts for Grey Knights, CSM, and Space Wolves make them absolutely better.

And yeah you can get an Apothecary. And? Isn't that once per army anyway?

"Never" is a stretch, I see them make it to combat regularly. It's going to be a function of your playgroup but whether any Terminator list works at all is going to be a function of your playgroup, so it's not exactly unusual in that regard.

Anyone who dismisses the massive advantage of safe Deep Strike with reliable Reserves has obviously never played a game without them. Try playing a few games without it and you'll quickly realize the importance. Wraithblades are in theory better than Terminators; they don't have 2+ armour but they're T6, start at 30pts, and can run around with S6/AP3 at Initiative or S7/AP2 Unwieldy. The thing that makes them much, much worse than Terminators is the lack of delivery systems; they don't have access to assault transports and they can't Deep Strike. Give them auto-Deep Strike on turn two and put teleport homers on bikes and they'd go from gathering dust on the back of the shelf to every competitive list in a fraction of a second.

Mixing weapons lets you stick guns in units that aren't stuck with just powerfists. All Tactical Terminators are forced to pay to be jack-of-all-trades units, but they're not very good at it because powerfists on all models is a specialized loadout that doesn't help against a lot of units. Mixing weapons lets your Terminators be a non-terrible jack-of-all-trades unit. It isn't an ideal solution and it doesn't fix a lot of the problems Terminators have in the broader context of the game, but it does make them better Terminators than BA/vanilla Terminators that don't have the option.

Command Squads are just Elites choices this edition. In a CAD the only upside to regular Deathwing Terminators over Command Squads is the ability to take more than five models. They're 0-1 per Redemption Force, though, and since that's where you're probably playing them if you're trying to play a Deathwing army yes, you're probably not using very many.

In an environment that lets them charge, sure. You don't see Terminators in any competitive list for a reason, and they're overpriced TH/SS Terminators for all intents and purposes, because going last with S8 AP2 is worth it over S6 AP3 and sometimes striking at S8 with only one attack. Reliability is key.
Don't pretend they're unique please.

Wraith blades have that in DE Allies with either Raiders or the Deep Strike with WWP. Nobody does that because Wraithguard. Once again, not unique. Also, anyone using Terminators can get safe deep striking with Locator Beacons on a couple Pods. Not hard. It also isn't hard to manipulate reserves.

Except what are you mixing? You get a Chainfist now and then in your overpriced TH/SS Terminator? That's not worth almost 25+ extra points to PAY FOR THE PRIVILEGE.
Also BA Terminators are better because they can charge out of Deep Strike.

I was talking about the Apothecary option. Everyone knows the Command Squad is better because you don't have the silly Power Sword Sergeant.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Also BA Terminators are better because they can charge out of Deep Strike...

Personally I regard a guaranteed safe landing on turn two as a massive improvement over coming in piecemeal and risking mishap for a limited chance of getting a charge off before taking a round of shooting, but apparently we're past the point of calm discussion on this one.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Also BA Terminators are better because they can charge out of Deep Strike...

Personally I regard a guaranteed safe landing on turn two as a massive improvement over coming in piecemeal and risking mishap for a limited chance of getting a charge off before taking a round of shooting, but apparently we're past the point of calm discussion on this one.

What are we comparing here?

The BA terminators are really good, the issue is their usage in lists don't scale down well to anything under 2000 points.

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Also BA Terminators are better because they can charge out of Deep Strike...

Personally I regard a guaranteed safe landing on turn two as a massive improvement over coming in piecemeal and risking mishap for a limited chance of getting a charge off before taking a round of shooting, but apparently we're past the point of calm discussion on this one.

What are we comparing here?

The Deathwing versus BA Terminators in general, and the benefits of the Deathwing Strike Force and the Archangels Orbital Intervention Force in particular.

The ba formation is very much win big or lose big. If they come in accurately and assault the right units its very good.

xlDuke wrote:
Orks. We're the only ones with decent assault vehicles

10/10 answer. Thanks for this answer. It is the correct answer.

Black Legion just upped it's terminator game. Terminators in a BL detachment/formation are troops and everything (with VotLW) gains hatred(everyone) and they get to re-roll hits every round vs armies of the imperium. More importably though, in their decurion, they can deepstrike turn 1 on a 3+ and the warlords unit doesn't need to roll. They also gain fear and crusader but both are pretty useless.

You'd have to take some non termies but being able to deepstrike the rest of the army turn one seems like a worthy tradeoff. To my knowledge, none of the other options can pull that off.

Or just stick with purge formations or terminator annihilation forces with actual plague termies now.

 Roknar wrote:
Black Legion just upped it's terminator game. Terminators in a BL detachment/formation are troops and everything (with VotLW) gains hatred(everyone) and they get to re-roll hits every round vs armies of the imperium. More importably though, in their decurion, they can deepstrike turn 1 on a 3+ and the warlords unit doesn't need to roll. They also gain fear and crusader but both are pretty useless.

You'd have to take some non termies but being able to deepstrike the rest of the army turn one seems like a worthy tradeoff. To my knowledge, none of the other options can pull that off.

Or just stick with purge formations or terminator annihilation forces with actual plague termies now.

The GK unique detachment allows Reserves rolls on turn one, but they don't have that pile of rerolls.

I see. GK get other goodies instead of the re-rolls though. They all have force weapons right?

 Roknar wrote:
I see. GK get other goodies instead of the re-rolls though. They all have force weapons right?

Force weapons, Hammerhand, and a different set of upgrade weapons.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Also BA Terminators are better because they can charge out of Deep Strike...

Personally I regard a guaranteed safe landing on turn two as a massive improvement over coming in piecemeal and risking mishap for a limited chance of getting a charge off before taking a round of shooting, but apparently we're past the point of calm discussion on this one.

It is 45 points for a Pod with a Beacon, which you were likely already taking. There's no contest. Deathwing was and still is garbage.

What exactly does the deathwing do? I don't think I've seen them since the new codex dropped.

Martel732 wrote:
What exactly does the deathwing do? I don't think I've seen them since the new codex dropped.

Fearless Terminators with Hatred (Chaos Marines) and Split Fire, kitted and priced to the 6e standard (same as the current BA book, except +10pts for TH/SS instead of +5pts), but a single squad with all the options rather than separate Assault/Tactical Terminators. There's also a separate command squad with the Apothecary, banner, and Company Champion (WS5, S6/AP2 at Initiative) options.

Knights are 45pts/model for WS5, storm shields, and S6/AP3 at Initiative or one S8/AP2 attack at Initiative replacing normal attacks, they've also got a rule that makes them T5 in sufficiently close order.

The formation is one Terminator IC, 2-5 regular Terminator squads, 0-1 each of command squads, Knights, and Venerable Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods, they automatically Deep Strike at the start of the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th turn (written down in advance) and can run and shoot the turn they land.

I vote Space Wolves because of the simple fact that all terminators are overpriced and lack affordable assault vehicles to actually get into close combat without getting shot off the board. What makes Space Wolf Terminators different is that their min squad size is 3 for more MSU efficiency, they can each take combi weapons so when they deep strike in they can actually do some real damage instead of plink at things with their storm bolters, and they have power weapons stock which means you can take swords, mauls, or upgrade to a frost sword or claw to be able to fight at initiative instead of dieing before they swing due to unwieldy power fists.

None of this makes their Terminators amazing but it makes them serviceable which is more than what can be said for most Terminators in the game.

Well, Ive voted for GK since the Termies are rather cheap and have decent special rules.
I think you need to cram as much Termies you can get into a Termie army to make the best out of it.