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It is far fetched, but makes sense. Unless they pull an out of left field and make a Xenos vs Xenos campaign book (which needs four books total between two releases) *gasp* which I would approve of more actually just because of it being more unique than another IoM vs Tau book.

I find the sacking of Ultramar the most likely between the two, and there doesn't appear to be any other noteworthy Imperial targets around them to advance the plot with. It all depends though.

I can make more accurate predictions as more information comes and I narrow down possibilities or get enough info for a range of possibilities to be clear. Right now that is my wild quasi guess.

If it did happen and the Tau did conquer it with some new technology and allied help what would your reaction be?

 Gamgee wrote:
The soulstone is the device needed to put the soul in the construct. That is like saying why don't we put the gasoline in the back seat and cut out gas tanks.

FYI, the Eldar run all their tech off of soulstones. They don't have computers at all.

The mechanism by which a Falcon's door is opened or closed is controlled by the soul of a dead Eldar soldier choosing when to open/close it, not a decision by the pilot or passengers pushing a button to make the computer open the door.

 Gamgee wrote:
It is far fetched, but makes sense. Unless they pull an out of left field and make a Xenos vs Xenos campaign book *gasp* which I would approve of more actually just because of it being more unique than another IoM vs Tau book.

I find the sacking of Ultramar the most likely between the two, and there doesn't appear to be any other noteworthy Imperial targets around them to advance the plot with. It all depends though.

I can make more accurate predictions as more information comes and I narrow down possibilities or get enough info for a range of possibilities to be clear. Right now that is my wild quasi guess.

If it did happen and the Tau did conquer it with some new technology and allied help what would your reaction be?

Disgust mostly, it would be a complete squandering of the Ultramarines fluff. It is the most powerful sector on the eastern side of the Imperium, and when the inevitable siege of Terra happens, it will be the most logical rallying point if things go Chaos after all.

That's not even mentioning if Magnus didn't kill off the wolves and completely destroy Fenris (technically still Space Wolf controlled), I can't see them dumping out Macragge to Xenos.

The Damocles gulf isn't that close to Macragge, and the Tau are literally war weary against the Imperium. I'm pretty sure the Tau, like they did with Voltaris, would just nope their way around Macragge and onto easier pastures.

Do they also power the devices? I knew they also acted as computers like that as well.

Edit
Well at least consider the possibility. My Dark Angels friend is taking the new fluff pretty hard. I'm expecting to lose stuff as a tau player that is why it is advancing to don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n times. I think if Ultramar fell it would be to a combination of factors, but the Tau would probably be manipulated into being the key force to attack or something. Other than that what do you suggest will happen to the Tau? They are one of GW's best selling armies so no squatting them. Try logically think and fairly think of what could happen and it needs to be big enough to be of a concern and worth a two books of story. It needs to include the IoM as enemies. PLeease... not another boring Damocles Gulf campign either.

Brother-Redemptor wrote:

Eldar engineer: "Hey, I have a thought."

Second Eldar engineer: "Shoot."

First Eldar engineer: "What if we try running Wraith constructs directly off of soulstones instead of trying to infuse the soul into the constructs themselves?"

The construction of any wraith construct requires both the efforts of the bonesingers to create its physical form and the spiritseers to grant it life by infusing it with an eldar soul stone. Could they find a way around this, sure it's possible if the writers want to do it that way but will the eldar have enough time to do so.

continued from previous:

Second Eldar engineer: "Nah, gotta put the souls in them directly. Won't work otherwise."

First Eldar engineer: "We made our tanks obey the command of soulstones without infusing souls into the metal. Wraithbone is inherently psychic and thus MORE likely to obey the command of a soulstone than mindless metal, not less."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Do they also power the devices? I knew they also acted as computers like that as well.

Wraithbone doesn't need fuel to power it, and if it did, it sure as hell wouldn't be consuming souls for power.

Oh I was mistaken then. Ah well learn something new everyday.

 Gamgee wrote:
Oh I was mistaken then. Ah well learn something new everyday.

:: nods ::

However, if it did require souls to fuel it, I'm pretty damned sure Eldar would not be even entertaining the idea of using Wraithbone for anything.

Well I assumed it psychically powered it with an infinite energy so there is no risk of it burning out as long as the pilot was in it powering it and running the systems. The only loss comes from the stones being destroyed in battle or the rare failure or sabotage of the circuits. I never assumed the Eldar would consume their own dead that would be crazy lol.

 Gamgee wrote:
Well I assumed it psychically powered it with an infinite energy so there is no risk of it burning out as long as the pilot was in it powering it and running the systems. The only loss comes from the stones being destroyed in battle or the rare failure or sabotage of the circuits. I never assumed the Eldar would consume their own dead that would be crazy lol.

Is there any reason they couldn't just take the souls from soulstones and put them into the Wraithbone? They got the soul into the soulstone, there must be a way to get them out if needed.

I mean, if they're out of souls they can use to power Wraithbone stuff, that would suggest that soulstones aren't viable methods for storing souls anymore, which has way,WAY worse implications for the Eldar than merely the loss of Wraith constructs.

I can't say I'm not that familiar with Eldar lore and as a Dark Eldar player they don't explain it much in the DE lore for obvious reasons.

Either way they are in a lot of trouble.

 Gamgee wrote:
Do they also power the devices? I knew they also acted as computers like that as well.

Edit
Well at least consider the possibility. My Dark Angels friend is taking the new fluff pretty hard. I'm expecting to lose stuff as a tau player that is why it is advancing to shittier times. I think if Ultramar fell it would be to a combination of factors, but the Tau would probably be manipulated into being the key force to attack or something. Other than that what do you suggest will happen to the Tau? They are one of GW's best selling armies so no squatting them. Try logically think and fairly think of what could happen and it needs to be big enough to be of a concern and worth a two books of story. It needs to include the IoM as enemies. PLeease... not another boring Damocles Gulf campign either.

The Tau do sell well, but I expect if they are pointed at Ultramar they will (finally) actually lose. It could be alpha legion manipulation to knock both out of the equation, but as the fluff stands I can't see them taking Ultramar down. Why does it have to end in another Tau victory? I don't think the Ultramarines winning against a Tau invasion that somehow made it to Macragge would end the Tau Empire. It might be a good catalyst for Shadowsun and Farsight reforming the Tau Empire.

Book one could be Tau vs Ultramarines, with a new Ultramarines Decurion/relics/etc. I can see them killing off Calgar (sad face) to make room for Sicarius, though I could also see them killing off Sicarius and making things look grim for the Ultramarines with the less than stellar Agammen being the presumed future. Book Two could be an updated Farsight/Shadowsun list, working with the Ultramarines against the Alpha Legion.

What if the Tau have the medical technology that could fix Guilliman? If the pure and zealous Black Templar are accepting help from the most deplorable of Xenos, a Tau/Ultramarines team up is down right acceptable.

 Gamgee wrote:
Well at least consider the possibility. My Dark Angels friend is taking the new fluff pretty hard. I'm expecting to lose stuff as a tau player that is why it is advancing to shittier times. I think if Ultramar fell it would be to a combination of factors, but the Tau would probably be manipulated into being the key force to attack or something. Other than that what do you suggest will happen to the Tau? They are one of GW's best selling armies so no squatting them. Try logically think and fairly think of what could happen and it needs to be big enough to be of a concern and worth a two books of story. It needs to include the IoM as enemies. PLeease... not another boring Damocles Gulf campign either.

The biggest concern the Empire has at the minute is the encircling Hive Fleets; Gorgon may just be the tip of the iceberg for what is to come. It is more likely that the Imperium will come to them after their failure to defeat them at Damocles, while the Tau are preoccupied fighting whatever is coming out from the void, or simply leave them to their fate to instead focus on whatever might be going on at the Cadian Gate.

The Empire has equal opportunity to be crushed, or to outwit fate like they have so many times in their history and emerge victorious. Either way, I expect the Eastern Fringe to become a major conflict if the story is to progress further.

G.A

My above being said, I would really love a Tau campaign focused on fighting Tyranids or Orks, as a side story to the main Imperial v Chaos romp. If they feel the need to shoe in Imperials, make it a minor role compared to the Tau/other Xenos.

@ Crazy If you think the campaign ends with the Dark Eldar not betraying everyone and one upping Cadia then your crazy. They are helping them get to Caida... for their own purposes and this is always how it goes.

However that aside a Tau/Ultramarines team up is not outside the possibility. The only other plausible theory people have said is the Tau will just have a new sphere of expansion where they rapidly expand in as much directions as possible, but I don't know seems a little boring and safe plot wise.

@General Annoyance
Tau might lose some battles but I can't see them being destroyed and/or just relegated to bit players either. Your theory of xenos vs xenos is interesting, but again GW has never done a xenos vs xenos book. Its less likely than the SoB. It's less likely than Kroot Mercenaries codex next year. Which is why the IoM in my mind has to be involved.

I suppose the Tau could go on the defense for awhile, but that seems to go against their lore too much and with the IoM suffering so much in other conflicts with a big black crusade coming it seems unwise to attack again. Especially since the end of Mont'ka made it clear they were making a last ditch effort to contain and defend by lighting the gulf on fire.

Also I forgot to mention I think the gulf is going to open into a warp storm/hole and chaos deamons will ensue. I'm almost positive this is going to happen and it lets chaos attack this side of the galaxy and bring the black crusade here.

 Gamgee wrote:
@General Annoyance
Tau might lose some battles but I can't see them being destroyed and/or just relegated to bit players either. Your theory of xenos vs xenos is interesting, but again GW has never done a xenos vs xenos book. Its less likely than the SoB. It's less likely than Kroot Mercenaries codex next year. Which is why the IoM in my mind has to be involved.

Well there's a first time for everything

Also I would hope that the Tau don't get crushed either, but based on possible outcomes, it's just as likely as them survivng whatever conflict is brought to them by hostile Xenos such as the Orks, and the Imperium of Man, who would be idiotic not to bring an Exterminatus Fleet to simply try and eradicate the Empire once and for all.

I suppose the Tau could go on the defense for a while, but that seems to go against their lore too much and with the IoM suffering so much in other conflicts with a big black crusade coming it seems unwise to attack again. Especially since the end of Mont'ka made it clear they were making a last ditch effort to contain and defend by lighting the gulf on fire.

Even the Tau aren't naive enough to realise that their methods of war may not be broad enough to stop anything coming their way, evidenced in the development of the KX139, and the other Ballistic Suits; a static defence of the Empire's Septs seems likely, even if it goes against the teachings of Mont'ka and Kauyon.

If the Imperium were to attack again, it'd be with something like an Exterminatus Fleet; I can't see them attempting to take the Empire by force in a ground war, when it went so wrong the last time they tried. It's more likely that they will want to end their presence for good by annihilating each Sept with Ordinatus Extremis, which will also have the added benefit of denying the Hive Fleets additional biomass.

Also I forgot to mention I think the gulf is going to open into a warp storm/hole and chaos deamons will ensue. I'm almost positive this is going to happen and it lets chaos attack this side of the galaxy and bring the black crusade here.

What evidence do you have to support this theory?

The Black Crusade has one function only - reach Holy Terra and raze it to the ground, along with whatever remains of the Emperor. Expanding it through the Eastern Fringe, an area of the galaxy well known for being a dead zone for Daemonic incursion, seems illogical.

 Gamgee wrote:
@ Crazy If you think the campaign ends with the Dark Eldar not betraying everyone and one upping Cadia then your crazy. They are helping them get to Caida... for their own purposes and this is always how it goes.

However that aside a Tau/Ultramarines team up is not outside the possibility. The only other plausible theory people have said is the Tau will just have a new sphere of expansion where they rapidly expand in as much directions as possible, but I don't know seems a little boring and safe plot wise.

@General Annoyance
Tau might lose some battles but I can't see them being destroyed and/or just relegated to bit players either. Your theory of xenos vs xenos is interesting, but again GW has never done a xenos vs xenos book. Its less likely than the SoB. It's less likely than Kroot Mercenaries codex next year. Which is why the IoM in my mind has to be involved.

I suppose the Tau could go on the defense for awhile, but that seems to go against their lore too much and with the IoM suffering so much in other conflicts with a big black crusade coming it seems unwise to attack again. Especially since the end of Mont'ka made it clear they were making a last ditch effort to contain and defend by lighting the gulf on fire.

Also I forgot to mention I think the gulf is going to open into a warp storm/hole and chaos deamons will ensue. I'm almost positive this is going to happen and it lets chaos attack this side of the galaxy and bring the black crusade here.

It depends on what the Dark Eldar have to lose if the Imperium goes belly up in the long run. Vect is a long game kind of guy.

If Vect is working with the Imperials, perhaps it will be Lady Malys that comes and screws the pooch.

Theres a few huge problems with the xenos races.

1 - They're not Imperial so you can never have a xenos vs xenos book

2 - Most of them don't fit at all with Chaos as an antagonist. Orks, Tau, Nids, Necrons. Only Eldar have that strong conflict.

3 - None of them are on par or going to be on par with the threat of Abaddon. So using them as an antagonist would just distract people from the real story that GW clearly wants to tell.

4 - They risk over using the Tyranids because all of those races are currently embroiled with or mortal enemies of the Nids.

Orks in Octarius Sector

Tau versus Leviathan (read end of MontKa)

Necrons and Silent Kings plan

 Pouncey wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Well I assumed it psychically powered it with an infinite energy so there is no risk of it burning out as long as the pilot was in it powering it and running the systems. The only loss comes from the stones being destroyed in battle or the rare failure or sabotage of the circuits. I never assumed the Eldar would consume their own dead that would be crazy lol.

Is there any reason they couldn't just take the souls from soulstones and put them into the Wraithbone? They got the soul into the soulstone, there must be a way to get them out if needed.

I mean, if they're out of souls they can use to power Wraithbone stuff, that would suggest that soulstones aren't viable methods for storing souls anymore, which has way,WAY worse implications for the Eldar than merely the loss of Wraith constructs.

When they go out of the soul stone you go into the warp. Making it pretty unlikely your soul will do anything.

There's nothing wrong with soulstones and I'm not sure why people seem to think there is.

Don't all of the exodite worlds store the souls of their dead in a kind of off line infinity circuit that isn't linked to the ones on the craft worlds? It's possible that many of the corsair fleets have similar methods too. So, over the millennia, I'm sure there will have been millions of souls stored like this that weren't destroyed when Eldrad failed in his plan that wraith constructs and the like could be animated from.

(I love how my attempt to make a sarcastig dig at the 'Elves' in AoS (which are Wood Elf Wraithguard, ignoring the fact that there was no previous provision in lore for anything of the sort to exist) has turned into an argument about how soulstones work.)

@General Annoyance
No real evidence more of a hunch. The way the gulf has always been described is very unstable and chaosy. Always shifting and trying to destroy ships and even having a sort of malevolent description. It kinda sounds like a pre-warp storm just beginning to form, and in the past the Tau were cut off by a huge warp storm blocking the way. Then at the end of Mon'ka the admiral had never seen the weapon used. It almost sounded like the tech priests in charge of the weapon were heretical to some extent and definitely not using an approved method of exterminatus since it left the planet and went to magically affect the whole gulf and set it on fire. It's too weird not to take not of how they describe it in the book. Even the admiral or general in command of the campaign was unsettled.

I would be impressed if GW did xenos vs xenos campaign or even vs chaos with no IoM presence for once. I think it's actually the ideal story, but ultimately I don't think its going to happen. GW is cool now, but not that crazy of a risk taker.

@Crazy
I don't own the AdMech codex but the passage can be found online in numerous places right now since its being discussed so much, but I don't think they went to Vect, but another DE. Also from images we see of the Fall of Cadia they are being guided by a DE who is not Vect. I think the DE are not as unified as they seem and someone is going to mess up something and then the IoM will be like heresy and blame the whole race for one persons treachery. Then again I guess its a fair rap but not in this hypothesized scenario.

Loopstah wrote:
Tyranids will keep on nomming.
Necron will keep on waking up.
Eldar will keep on contemplating their navels (if they have them).
Squats will keep on {redacted}
Genestealer Cults will keep on growing.
Dark Eldar will keep on killing.
Orks will keep on fightin'.
Tau will be all, woo they aren't looking at us anymore, lets expand and bring the greater good to everyone, and build more biggerer robot suits.

Exalted for humor

I have no doubt we will get another 3 suits for the next Tau update *sigh* Just once I want a cool vehicle or maybe a smaller suit like crisis or smaller, but we'll probably just get mega deathray mecha destroyer d missles+1 typhoon surge XXXKCCVB 102134234 suit that is made out of ademantine and is indescrutible unless rammed by a transport in which case it is removed from the table top immediately.

The Tau will take over a forge world and use it to become a massive Drone manufacturing center. The empires armies and fleets will begin a new great expansion with a heavier reliance on drones, autonomous warships, and battlesuits to bolster their fighting strength, and maybe though not likely, more alien auxillaries. They will try, and fail, to understand webway technology but begin to try tinkering with wormhole tech with calamitous results.

 Overheal wrote:
The Tau will take over a forge world and use it to become a massive Drone manufacturing center. The empires armies and fleets will begin a new great expansion with a heavier reliance on drones, autonomous warships, and battlesuits to bolster their fighting strength, and maybe though not likely, more alien auxillaries. They will try, and fail, to understand webway technology but begin to try tinkering with wormhole tech with calamitous results.

Now that... sounds interesting. The Tau have insane industrial output already though so what would they gain from mostly inferior construction technology? They already do have entire sections of worlds dedicated to production that are just cast areas of drone manufacturing. I guess an entire dedicated planet tauified would be a huge boon but why not just make the planet somewhere else? Why does it need to take over the FW... unless they need some stored tech there... hmm... interesting.

Edit
Thinking about this some more I would be okay with this if the Tau won the damocles gulf so we can put a close to that area and then they get the forgeworld and take some losses somewhere.

I'm wondering if there will be a repeat of Da Green crusade.
It's what the Orks did the last time e had a 13th Black Crusade.
Glorious. I should check the Ork codex to see if it's mentioned somewhere.

 Gamgee wrote:
@General Annoyance
No real evidence more of a hunch. The way the gulf has always been described is very unstable and chaosy. Always shifting and trying to destroy ships and even having a sort of malevolent description. It kinda sounds like a pre-warp storm just beginning to form, and in the past the Tau were cut off by a huge warp storm blocking the way. Then at the end of Mon'ka the admiral had never seen the weapon used. It almost sounded like the tech priests in charge of the weapon were heretical to some extent and definitely not using an approved method of exterminatus since it left the planet and went to magically affect the whole gulf and set it on fire. It's too weird not to take not of how they describe it in the book. Even the admiral or general in command of the campaign was unsettled.

I would be impressed if GW did xenos vs xenos campaign or even vs chaos with no IoM presence for once. I think it's actually the ideal story, but ultimately I don't think its going to happen. GW is cool now, but not that crazy of a risk taker.

Ah, fair enough then. If you do find any evidence for that though, please share it!

I haven't read Mont'ka - so the Imperium has already attempted Exterminatus? If so that'd be a big difference, since I'd then assume the Imperium will either leave the Tau to their fate, or even possibly forge a temporary alliance with them against the Hive Fleets if situations across the rest of Imperial space escalate to a point of desperation.

I wouldn't really call it a risk as such - people do play factions other than Space Marines; Space Marines may be one of their best selling lines, but that does not mean making a Xenos vs Xenos/Xenos vs Chaos set of some kind would be a risky business decision. In fact, existing customers may be even pleased with the change, thus affecting potential demand positively.

 Overheal wrote:
The Tau will take over a forge world and use it to become a massive Drone manufacturing center. The empires armies and fleets will begin a new great expansion with a heavier reliance on drones, autonomous warships, and battlesuits to bolster their fighting strength, and maybe though not likely, more alien auxillaries. They will try, and fail, to understand webway technology but begin to try tinkering with wormhole tech with calamitous results.

The Tau have no need to capture any Imperial facilities/technologies; it goes against their principle of not really caring about holding ground, as well as having to convert Imperial facilities to ones capable of manufacturing their technology, at which point it would simply be more efficient to construct their own factories, either on the worlds they push the Imperium from or in a fleet based manner.

I'm pretty sure the Empire has next to no knowledge on the existence of the Webway, let alone the capabilities to study it. Also keep in mind that the Webway is an extension of the Warp, which could pose difficulty for the Tau as a non Psychic race to even notice it in the first place.

Y'know, it occurs to me that Tau might be the most similar faction to how modern day Earth would operate in the WH40k universe.

Think about it. Heavy emphasis on ranged weapons, melee combat has almost totally disappeared as a standard part of combat. Our own training in hand-to-hand combat is more as a last-resort thing, so of course our soldiers would get slaughtered by aliens that put a lot of emphasis into being good at it. Extremely rapid technological growth (we invented the airplane about 100 years ago, currently we have robots on other planets and have been smashing our tech into comets for research purposes). Tau plasma weapons sacrifice power for safety, like our own plasma weapons would do IRL if we had any. Diplomatic enough to try peace as the first option, and we don't just wipe out an entire population (normally, though it's worth noting that people are willing to go to war to stop things like that, just to defend innocents in other countries). No real magic-users, so we have to rely on non-Warp methods of interstellar travel that are relatively slow. Progressive and forward-thinking in terms of technology and social matters.

Obviously some stuff doesn't fit. The Caste system isn't anything we have IRL. We may have certain social classes but they don't affect our morphology like they do for the Tau, and they're nowhere near as rigid. Ethereals similarly don't really fit. It's nowhere near a perfect matchup, but if I had to pick one particular army as the closest to RL Earth, Tau would be it.

 Pouncey wrote:
Y'know, it occurs to me that Tau might be the most similar faction to how modern day Earth would operate in the WH40k universe.

Think about it. Heavy emphasis on ranged weapons, melee combat has almost totally disappeared as a standard part of combat. Our own training in hand-to-hand combat is more as a last-resort thing, so of course our soldiers would get slaughtered by aliens that put a lot of emphasis into being good at it. Extremely rapid technological growth (we invented the airplane about 100 years ago, currently we have robots on other planets and have been smashing our tech into comets for research purposes). Tau plasma weapons sacrifice power for safety, like our own plasma weapons would do IRL if we had any. Diplomatic enough to try peace as the first option, and we don't just wipe out an entire population (normally, though it's worth noting that people are willing to go to war to stop things like that, just to defend innocents in other countries). No real magic-users, so we have to rely on non-Warp methods of interstellar travel that are relatively slow. Progressive and forward-thinking in terms of technology and social matters.

Obviously some stuff doesn't fit. The Caste system isn't anything we have IRL. We may have certain social classes but they don't affect our morphology like they do for the Tau, and they're nowhere near as rigid. Ethereals similarly don't really fit. It's nowhere near a perfect matchup, but if I had to pick one particular army as the closest to RL Earth, Tau would be it.

Nice insight

Seems like counts-as Tau would make a decent basis for a world that had been cut off from the universe since the DAoT. That'd be a cool army to model

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Y'know, it occurs to me that Tau might be the most similar faction to how modern day Earth would operate in the WH40k universe.

Think about it. Heavy emphasis on ranged weapons, melee combat has almost totally disappeared as a standard part of combat. Our own training in hand-to-hand combat is more as a last-resort thing, so of course our soldiers would get slaughtered by aliens that put a lot of emphasis into being good at it. Extremely rapid technological growth (we invented the airplane about 100 years ago, currently we have robots on other planets and have been smashing our tech into comets for research purposes). Tau plasma weapons sacrifice power for safety, like our own plasma weapons would do IRL if we had any. Diplomatic enough to try peace as the first option, and we don't just wipe out an entire population (normally, though it's worth noting that people are willing to go to war to stop things like that, just to defend innocents in other countries). No real magic-users, so we have to rely on non-Warp methods of interstellar travel that are relatively slow. Progressive and forward-thinking in terms of technology and social matters.

Obviously some stuff doesn't fit. The Caste system isn't anything we have IRL. We may have certain social classes but they don't affect our morphology like they do for the Tau, and they're nowhere near as rigid. Ethereals similarly don't really fit. It's nowhere near a perfect matchup, but if I had to pick one particular army as the closest to RL Earth, Tau would be it.

Nice insight

Seems like counts-as Tau would make a decent basis for a world that had been cut off from the universe since the DAoT. That'd be a cool army to model

I mean, Tau even have power armor sorta like what some of our sci-fi has come up with, they're called battlesuits. It's not a literal suit of man-sized power armor, but it's more like the Starship Troopers vision of power armor, which was more like a small,one-man mech.

Their men and women, when in their uniforms and armor, are indistinguishable from each other, like modern soldiers are.