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 Insectum7 wrote:
I totally agree with the OP, and think the obsession with size is ridiculous. I almost bought the Guilliman model, until I saw it in person. It was the first Primarch model I saw, and it was foolishly large. I don't want it in my army.

I like my Space Marines at 7ish feet tall, and prefer my Primarchs on the same scale. Otherwise the best defense against Primarchs is tight hallways, and I feel like the Space Marines are being pushed down that route as well. Given that one of their primary roles is boarding spaceships and invading command centers, being giants isn't going to help them.


Magnus is another thing all together. He's a Daemon Primarch, a complete warp mutant whose appearance can be shifted at will. He's completely turned his back on his own humanity, thus, hes a monster.

To be fair if you play the RPG games stairs are the most likely thing to kill Marines, kind of makes sense that the hallway would get the better of a Primarch.

 insaniak wrote:
The Daemon Primarchs being huge is fine.

The regular Primarchs being huge is a little silly... largely because they tend to forget about it aside from when it matters to the narrative. They wander about the place as if everyone in the galaxy constructed their doorways to cater for 12-foot-tall superhumans, and only remember to mention any sort of issue when it's someone trying to sit in a Primarch's over-sized chair.

lol, believe it or not this is actually addressed at length by Guilliman in one of the Horus Heresy novels.

"Primarch sized chairs." Direct quote. Apparently he renovated parts of Macragge to accommodate himself.

 TedNugent wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
The Daemon Primarchs being huge is fine.

The regular Primarchs being huge is a little silly... largely because they tend to forget about it aside from when it matters to the narrative. They wander about the place as if everyone in the galaxy constructed their doorways to cater for 12-foot-tall superhumans, and only remember to mention any sort of issue when it's someone trying to sit in a Primarch's over-sized chair.

lol, believe it or not this is actually addressed at length by Guilliman in one of the Horus Heresy novels.

"Primarch sized chairs." Direct quote. Apparently he renovated parts of Macragge to accommodate himself.

The fact I they are not human.
They are basically purpose bread war machines. Most advanced biological science and strength, size, speed and etc...

Space marines are part human, there partial superhuman. But alos gentic human base.

Custodious are purpose bread and captain level space marines.
FA as know, very little humanity.

But a 12foot "perfect" killing machine.. I can see that.

I think it makes sense for some(I.e. Magnus, sanguinius, angron, hell even Lorgar could be a giant.), but definitely not for others(we all know alpharius-Oregon can't be that much bigger to maintain the whole "I am alpharius" thingy, kurze shouldn't be, khan shouldn't be, Horus, fulgrim, perturabo, ferrus manus, corax, Russ, vulkan, and the lion all probably shouldn't be giants but maybe just a head taller and built stronger than an average marine.)
And then there's a few I'm on the fence about where they fit so maybe A midpoint between giant and slightly-taller-than-an-average-marine sized such as dorn, guilliman, mortarion

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Primarchs aren't human.

Yeah they are.

They're the Emperor's kids, created from his DNA.

The Emperor was human.

They're just really, really powerful, but they're still human.

Youve heard the phase 10 ft tall and bullet proof.
Im gonna primarch slap the lot of ya beetches.
if the primarch is walking down a dodgy leads to no where corridor, hes doing it wrong.

the ancient wrote:
Youve heard the phase 10 ft tall and bullet proof.
Im gonna primarch slap the lot of ya beetches.
if the primarch is walking down a dodgy leads to no where corridor, hes doing it wrong.

I haven't heard that phrase, actually.

Also, if the Primarch is walking down a corridor that leads to nowhere, he probably doesn't know the corridor leads to nowhere. If he did, he wouldn't be walking down it.

 Pouncey wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Primarchs aren't human.

Yeah they are.

They're the Emperor's kids, created from his DNA.

The Emperor was human.

They're just really, really powerful, but they're still human.

No they aren't. Biologically they are nothing like human. In fact, their biology is so radically different to humans and Space Marines that the medicae officers in False Gods didn't even know how to fix Horus because his biology was so alien. If something is so different on a biological level that it no longer resembles anything close to human, it can't be considered a human. By this logic, Genestealer Hybrids are human because they have human DNA.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Primarchs aren't human.

Yeah they are.

They're the Emperor's kids, created from his DNA.

The Emperor was human.

They're just really, really powerful, but they're still human.

No they aren't. Biologically they are nothing like human. In fact, their biology is so radically different to humans and Space Marines that the medicae officers in False Gods didn't even know how to fix Horus because his biology was so alien. If something is so different on a biological level that it no longer resembles anything close to human, it can't be considered a human. By this logic, Genestealer Hybrids are human because they have human DNA.

So... Space Marines are xenos?

Does the Deathwatch know about this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe you should just look up how DNA works if you're gonna say things like Genestealer-Human Hybrids aren't human because only part of their DNA is human.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Primarchs aren't human.

Yeah they are.

They're the Emperor's kids, created from his DNA.

The Emperor was human.

They're just really, really powerful, but they're still human.

No they aren't. Biologically they are nothing like human. In fact, their biology is so radically different to humans and Space Marines that the medicae officers in False Gods didn't even know how to fix Horus because his biology was so alien. If something is so different on a biological level that it no longer resembles anything close to human, it can't be considered a human. By this logic, Genestealer Hybrids are human because they have human DNA.

So... Space Marines are xenos?

Does the Deathwatch know about this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe you should just look up how DNA works if you're gonna say things like Genestealer-Human Hybrids aren't human because only part of their DNA is human.

Primarchs are not Space Marines. Space Marines are humans that are changed with augmentative surgery and the application of genetic manipulation via the Geneseed. They are, basically, mutated humans. Primarchs were never, ever human. They were grown in test tubes and their biological structure is completely different than humans or Space Marines.

As for your second point, I hardly think the snarky comments are necessary. But anyways, Genestealers alter human DNA by injecting a mutative parasite that converts the host's genome into something that will cause their children to be hybrids. Their DNA in Genestealer Hybrids is not true human DNA. The Genestealer mutates the host's DNA and the Genestealer genes take over the human side genetically and psychically. Really, it's a misnomer to even call them hybrids, since it's more like hyper-fast-paced evolution from human to Genestealer via generational reproduction. Genestealer reproduction is weird, because their genetic structure slowly becomes more and more Genestealer as the generations go on, no matter what the non-Hybrid parent is; all the the way up until the offspring is a full-fledged, Purestrain Genestealer. Really, Genestealer genomes and genetics don't follow any real-world scientific principles of genetics or genome studies, probably because the people that wrote it are game writers and not geneticists.

It's Pouncey, just move along.

 Darth Bob wrote:
Primarchs are not Space Marines. Space Marines are humans that are changed with augmentative surgery and the application of genetic manipulation via the Geneseed. They are, basically, mutated humans. Primarchs were never, ever human. They were grown in test tubes and their biological structure is completely different than humans or Space Marines.

As for your second point, I hardly think the snarky comments are necessary. But anyways, Genestealers alter human DNA by injecting a mutative parasite that converts the host's genome into something that will cause their children to be hybrids. Their DNA in Genestealer Hybrids is not true human DNA. The Genestealer mutates the host's DNA and the Genestealer genes take over the human side genetically and psychically. Really, it's a misnomer to even call them hybrids, since it's more like hyper-fast-paced evolution from human to Genestealer via generational reproduction. Genestealer reproduction is weird, because their genetic structure slowly becomes more and more Genestealer as the generations go on, no matter what the non-Hybrid parent is; all the the way up until the offspring is a full-fledged, Purestrain Genestealer. Really, Genestealer genomes and genetics don't follow any real-world scientific principles of genetics or genome studies, probably because the people that wrote it are game writers and not geneticists.

So, DNA in WH40k doesn't work like it does in real life.

That's all you needed to say, really.

Do we actually have any references to the height of the primarchs? Is it just heads and shoulders above a normal marine?

Going by the life size drawing GW has of a Space Marine they are 7ft tall. I know the the top of the scale says 8ft but the bottom says 1ft, 8-1=7. If primarchs are heads and shoulders above a marine, that would make them 8ft-9ft tall, maybe 10ft max.

 Drummernathan wrote:
I think it makes sense for some(I.e. Magnus, sanguinius, angron, hell even Lorgar could be a giant.), but definitely not for others(we all know alpharius-Oregon can't be that much bigger to maintain the whole "I am alpharius" thingy, kurze shouldn't be, khan shouldn't be, Horus, fulgrim, perturabo, ferrus manus, corax, Russ, vulkan, and the lion all probably shouldn't be giants but maybe just a head taller and built stronger than an average marine.)
And then there's a few I'm on the fence about where they fit so maybe A midpoint between giant and slightly-taller-than-an-average-marine sized such as dorn, guilliman, mortarion

Curze is specifically described as being taller than Guilliman or Lion.

I don't mind it at all, it helps to seperate them from the rest of humanity.
Also make a poll.

In the novels, space marines sometimes refer to themselves as "transhuman" and even refer to unaugmented humans as "human," sometimes disparagingly, to distinguish themselves.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Drummernathan wrote:
I think it makes sense for some(I.e. Magnus, sanguinius, angron, hell even Lorgar could be a giant.), but definitely not for others(we all know alpharius-Oregon can't be that much bigger to maintain the whole "I am alpharius" thingy, kurze shouldn't be, khan shouldn't be, Horus, fulgrim, perturabo, ferrus manus, corax, Russ, vulkan, and the lion all probably shouldn't be giants but maybe just a head taller and built stronger than an average marine.)
And then there's a few I'm on the fence about where they fit so maybe A midpoint between giant and slightly-taller-than-an-average-marine sized such as dorn, guilliman, mortarion

Curze is specifically described as being taller than Guilliman or Lion.

How much taller though?

Relative heights don't really mean anything unless we get the actual measurement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:
In the novels, space marines sometimes refer to themselves as "transhuman" and even refer to unaugmented humans as "human," sometimes disparagingly, to distinguish themselves.

...Like how Magneto in X-Men uses "human" as a disparaging term? And Mystique thinks that "homo sapien" is a slur?

Yeah the Emperor isn't human. If his origin story is true (and not Imperial dogma), then he's a warp-born entity formed from the amalgamated souls of many powerful psykers.

The Primarchs aren't human either. They're genetically and biologically engineered war machines.

Space Marines are human. The Imperium really doesn't like genetic engineering as it messes with 'the holy human form'. Space Marines skirt around the edge of this by taking ordinary humans and implanting genetically engineered organs into them. If you cloned a Space Marine, you'd get a standard human. Their genetic structure is untouched.

Think of them as normal humans with mechanical implants, except instead of being made of metal, the implants are biological in nature.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah the Emperor isn't human. If his origin story is true (and not Imperial dogma), then he's a warp-born entity formed from the amalgamated souls of many powerful psykers.

The Primarchs aren't human either. They're genetically and biologically engineered war machines.

Space Marines are human. The Imperium really doesn't like genetic engineering as it messes with 'the holy human form'. Space Marines skirt around the edge of this by taking ordinary humans and implanting genetically engineered organs into them. If you cloned a Space Marine, you'd get a standard human. Their genetic structure is untouched.

Think of them as normal humans with mechanical implants, except instead of being made of metal, the implants are biological in nature.

Didn't you just say that the Emperor genetically-engineered the Primarchs?

Yet the Imperium doesn't like genetic engineering?

Like, you said those two things back to back, and you didn't see any contradiction?

 Elbows wrote:
I don't mind the idea of Primarchs. I do mind the idea that somehow after all of the fighting they've done, none were hit by an orbital bombardment or a Titan's Plasma Annihilator.

Lorgar actually WAS hit by a weapon from a Warhound Titan but survived (albeit half-melted). The real question is why don't Titans hunt specifically for enemy Primarchs when they're in their command vehicles on the battlefield? A few of them (Angron, Leman Russ) wouldn't even be that hard to find...

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I don't mind the idea of Primarchs. I do mind the idea that somehow after all of the fighting they've done, none were hit by an orbital bombardment or a Titan's Plasma Annihilator.

Lorgar actually WAS hit by a weapon from a Warhound Titan but survived (albeit half-melted). The real question is why don't Titans hunt specifically for enemy Primarchs when they're in their command vehicles on the battlefield? A few of them (Angron, Leman Russ) wouldn't even be that hard to find...

Probably because based on what you just said, Titan weaponry appears to be ineffective.

We could always try orbital strikes from starship weapons.

Worst-case scenario, just Cyclonic Torpedo the planet. There's only 20 Primarchs. You have 1,000,000 planets.

I'm not fond of the clumsy attempt at portraying posthumns that the Primarchs have become.

I preferred their depiction (and that of the Emperor, for that matter) in 1st edition Space Marine. Tall, charismatic, imposing, but not freakishly big. I also ptreferred the idea of them being commanders, not champions. Hprus, Roboute Guilliman and Rogal Dorn all get some flavour text in the Space Marine rulebook, and none of them are on the front likes. Horus is doing paperwork and preparing to attend a diplomatic mission on Davin, Rogal Dorn is supervising the defence of the Imperial Palace and Guilliman is directing a battle against the Word Bearers (With Lorgar doing the same on the other side, it's implied) from a rear-area command post.

I understand the idea, that humanity has, to protect itself, turned over power to a collection of nightmarishly inhuman beings, but I don't like the final concept. Part of it is the whole "more gothic than 40k" feel and terminology. Old Epic had powered armour, computers and Imperial Commanders rather than battle plate, cogitators and Praetors. Partly that was because the universe as a whole wasn't being described in such ... thematic language, but to me it's a nice contrast to the superstition of the "present" 40k.

By contrast, the Emperor is something different. The Primarchs are twisted mirrors of humanity, each reflecting and emphasising a particular aspect, but the Emperor is a distillation of Humanity's power and potential. The Primarchs are tools to be used, the Emperor is the path to be followed.

Generally, fans of the old versions of fiction are unhappy with retcons.

But, I mean, GW's position on canon lets you pick and choose what you like, or invent your own. They never said that you HAVE to go with the most recent versions, did they?

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah the Emperor isn't human. If his origin story is true (and not Imperial dogma), then he's a warp-born entity formed from the amalgamated souls of many powerful psykers.

The Primarchs aren't human either. They're genetically and biologically engineered war machines.

Space Marines are human. The Imperium really doesn't like genetic engineering as it messes with 'the holy human form'. Space Marines skirt around the edge of this by taking ordinary humans and implanting genetically engineered organs into them. If you cloned a Space Marine, you'd get a standard human. Their genetic structure is untouched.

Think of them as normal humans with mechanical implants, except instead of being made of metal, the implants are biological in nature.

Didn't you just say that the Emperor genetically-engineered the Primarchs?

Yet the Imperium doesn't like genetic engineering?

Like, you said those two things back to back, and you didn't see any contradiction?

Yep. That's one of the contradictions behind the insane dogma that the imperium believes in. Genetic engineering is taboo, but it's fine and holy when the emperor does it. The imperium is founded on hypocracy.

Besides, when the emperor made the primarchs there was no imperium to speak of, or imperial faith either.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah the Emperor isn't human. If his origin story is true (and not Imperial dogma), then he's a warp-born entity formed from the amalgamated souls of many powerful psykers.

The Primarchs aren't human either. They're genetically and biologically engineered war machines.

Space Marines are human. The Imperium really doesn't like genetic engineering as it messes with 'the holy human form'. Space Marines skirt around the edge of this by taking ordinary humans and implanting genetically engineered organs into them. If you cloned a Space Marine, you'd get a standard human. Their genetic structure is untouched.

Think of them as normal humans with mechanical implants, except instead of being made of metal, the implants are biological in nature.

Didn't you just say that the Emperor genetically-engineered the Primarchs?

Yet the Imperium doesn't like genetic engineering?

Like, you said those two things back to back, and you didn't see any contradiction?

Yep. That's one of the contradictions behind the insane dogma that the imperium believes in. Genetic engineering is taboo, but it's fine and holy when the emperor does it. The imperium is founded on hypocracy.

Besides, when the emperor made the primarchs there was no imperium to speak of, or imperial faith either.

Maybe what happened is that the Imperium doesn't believe in the same things the Emperor does, because he died 10,000 years ago and no one remembers what he did or why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, except Bjorn. He was around 10,000 years earlier. So were the Primarchs.

So I think the following is what would happen.

Space Wolf: "Bjorn! We're gonna wake up Roboute!"

Bjorn: "Great! Can I be there when it happens? I want to talk with him right when he wakes up and fill him in on all the things that happened in the last 10,000 years!"

Then Bjorn asks for some privacy before Roboute does something crazy like say the Emperor is not a God. He would tell him what the hell happened, and just go along with it, and keep his mouth shut, because these are not the same Space Marines that were around when Roboute went to sleep, so he should just keep his opinions to himself, tow the company line, and STAY. ALIVE.

Now that's a return of the primarchs i'd love to see Guiliman comes back and thinks 'what the hell is this place'. His populace are raving religious fanatics, and his own chapter is flaunting one of the sole reasons for his codex (splitting marines from the other armed forces) with the macragge pdf.

I'd love to see the primarchs on the run from their own maddened subjects

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Now that's a return of the primarchs i'd love to see Guiliman comes back and thinks 'what the hell is this place'. His populace are raving religious fanatics, and his own chapter is flaunting one of the sole reasons for his codex (splitting marines from the other armed forces) with the macragge pdf.

I'd love to see the primarchs on the run from their own maddened subjects

It'd be funny if they went to go help the Tau.

I wonder how they'll get off the planet though. It's not like they can crew a ship on their own, and no one's going to help them.

I love the primarch concept.

Then the Emperor being above them is even cooler.

BRB hides among humans, looks just like a homeless dude in a brown cloak as the world changes.

BRB time to reveal myself, I'm actually 10 feet tall, 8% bodyfat, 400 lbs lean with sick hair and the best facial aesthetics you've ever seen. Combined with elite fighting prowess, immeasurable intelligence, political acumen never before seen in history and I'm psychic too. Ehhhhhhhhh call me Mary-Sue.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
I love the primarch concept.

Then the Emperor being above them is even cooler.

BRB hides among humans, looks just like a homeless dude in a brown cloak as the world changes.

BRB time to reveal myself, I'm actually 10 feet tall, 8% bodyfat, 400 lbs lean with sick hair and the best facial aesthetics you've ever seen. Combined with elite fighting prowess, immeasurable intelligence, political acumen never before seen in history and I'm psychic too. Ehhhhhhhhh call me Mary-Sue.

So he's a shapeshifter?

 Pouncey wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:


Curze is specifically described as being taller than Guilliman or Lion.

How much taller though?

Relative heights don't really mean anything unless we get the actual measurement.

Well let me get out my inch ruler and measure Guilliman, Lion and Curze and get back to you with a precise measurement of their height so you can be fully informed on the precise measurements of your fictional heroes.

Relative information is important, let me tell you why. When an archaeologist is looking at samples from a dig site, he may use radiometric dating of a molecule taken from a sample and using a half life which is pre-measured he may absolutely date the sample. However not every artifact or sample within a given layer may have that same molecule which is convenient for date measurements. Therefore you might take a sample from a higher soil layer and a lower soil layer in a dig site, absolutely date them, then compare the results to samples taken from layers in between those two layers that have been radiometrically dated to say that something between those two layers is between those two dates. So if the top layer has an artifact that is, say, 1,000 years old, and the third layer has a sample that is 2000 years old, you can then say that the 2nd layer is between 1,000 and 2,000 years old.

We know that a space marine is 8 feet tall. One of the books describes Vulkan as a big primarch, and I believe (I'm frankly not going to comb back through looking for this quote) it says he is over 3 meters in height. Curze is described as being very tall but gaunt, taller than Lion who is in turn taller than Guilliman. So probably Vulkan ~= Curze > Lion > Guilliman > Space Marine. So the average Primarch is probably slightly taller than 3 meters with some substantial variance, while wearing their armor.

Angels of Caliban says that Curze looks much less tall when he is not wearing his armor, and his armor doesn't exactly look like he's wearing stilettos, so I'm guessing that all Primarchs are also shorter outside of their armor.