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So what you need a reverse true-scale kit?

TBH when FW started the HH stuff I was a little disappointed by the sizes of the primarchs, they seemed bigger in the books.

One of them did... twice, he was fine. 

He *survived*. "Fine" is a very relative term.....

Personally, I always thought of the Primarchs as being bigger than regular Space Marines, even before the Horus Heresy books started dropping.

I can sympathize with the arguments about impracticality, but I think it really just boils down to an image and style thing: they're supposed to be larger than life, living demi-gods, figureheads for the army of a galactic empire.

And to be fair, the lore has at least somewhat of a precedent for 12-foot corridors and such: the Imperium's obsession with grand scale is well documented, they're making huge doorways just for the fun of it!

I find 40K's focus suddenly on them being physical monsters to be a bit grade schoolish. The available art shows them slightly larger potentially but not gigantic. Even Horus besotted with chaotic gifts is not dramatically larger than the Spazz Emprah and other troopers.

Says the tiny little sausage dawg. theres a reason you dont hunt pigs.

The art shows them to be twice as large as humans.

Tis the ole Im 10ft tall and bullet proof phase. Or bigga iz betta.
Are you, lets say a 5.8ft guy going to tell 6.9ft guy, nope, run away.
But its the internet. So of course you are going to kill it dead. Not IRL.
Height and bulk matters. Otherwise theyd put feathers up agianst heavys. But we all know whats going to happen there.
Now people can complain, but marines could wander freely, if they gave a feth about my hab block. They might have to duck through doors

Play Alpha Legion, they are generally all the same size.

Problem solved in the face of your freakishly gargantuan contempories.

the ancient wrote:
Says the tiny little sausage dawg. theres a reason you dont hunt pigs.

The art shows them to be twice as large as humans.

Tis the ole Im 10ft tall and bullet proof phase. Or bigga iz betta.
Are you, lets say a 5.8ft guy going to tell 6.9ft guy, nope, run away.
But its the internet. So of course you are going to kill it dead. Not IRL.
Height and bulk matters. Otherwise theyd put feathers up agianst heavys. But we all know whats going to happen there.
Now people can complain, but marines could wander freely, if they gave a feth about my hab block. They might have to duck through doors

Badger dogs hunt badgers actually.

Bigger guy just makes you a bigger target in a world of plasma, melta, vortex bombs etc. Size doesn't win wars. Logistics wins war.*


*Thats why the two most powerful legions, the Emperors Truck Drivers and the Iron Teamsters were so feared they were completed struck from the record, such was the fear that they would arise again.

I thought Primarchs were always huge. All the lore I read said that while the space marine stood a literal head above the normal human, the Primarchs towered over even the marines.

Plus Sanguinus was able to break a Bloodthirster's back over his knee. Assuming he's roughly the same size as, say, Gulliman, being any smaller and that would literally be physically impossible (instead of using his knee as a fulcrum to break the thing's back, he'd just be giving him one awkward acupuncture session).

I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.

 Imperial_grunt wrote:
I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.

because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.

The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Imperial_grunt wrote:
I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.

because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.

The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.

Being bigger doesn't make you less of a leader.

I think the Primarchs being larger and more physically capable, as well as more strategically minded makes them perfect for their role. They were the figureheads of the Legions, not just generals and warriors supreme. They were the Emperor's sons, his chosen few - by making them bigger, they are more like gods - a morale figure. By making them physically powerful, they inspire strength and means that they can hold their own from potential attackers if their soldiers were unable to. They are the fulcrum of the legion, the embodiment of the Emperor's strength in the Legions made manifest. If the Emperor's sons couldn't fight and lead, then how could the Legions be expected to serve the Emperor?

I don't see how being bigger means they're less of a leader.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Imperial_grunt wrote:
I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.

because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.

The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.

Being bigger doesn't make you less of a leader.

I think the Primarchs being larger and more physically capable, as well as more strategically minded makes them perfect for their role. They were the figureheads of the Legions, not just generals and warriors supreme. They were the Emperor's sons, his chosen few - by making them bigger, they are more like gods - a morale figure. By making them physically powerful, they inspire strength and means that they can hold their own from potential attackers if their soldiers were unable to. They are the fulcrum of the legion, the embodiment of the Emperor's strength in the Legions made manifest. If the Emperor's sons couldn't fight and lead, then how could the Legions be expected to serve the Emperor?

I don't see how being bigger means they're less of a leader.

Not like freakishly large though. For example Horus kneeling height being the same height as one of his Marines.

I'm not talking about the capabilities, I'm saying that too much focus on size might detract from their intangible qualities.

We don't want to make them too much like Orks where "biggah is bettah" The Primarchs were infused with the power of the warp at their creation. They should fight with skill, not brute mass. They're humans after all. Humans are the superior race from their POV. Only an inferior race like the Orks needs to be big to do something.

We talk about a handful of Space Marines saving the day. A handful. Space Marines are so damn good that we only need a handful of them to do serious damage. That's a testament to their amplification of power, of how size doesn't matter.

We could have more focus on their ability to manage people too. Make them more normal sized and focus on that. The Primarchs weren't super large when they were first introduced. Not sure who had a giant fetish and made them such.


The Primarchs had other qualities. Some were said to be very handsome and that's why their men admired them. Handsome giants? hmmm...

For example, you talk about figureheads. Jodi Ann Paterson doesn't have to be super large in order to be a cover girl. Of course, she's a model, not a warrior, but you get my drift.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Imperial_grunt wrote:
I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.

because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.

The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.

Being bigger doesn't make you less of a leader.

I think the Primarchs being larger and more physically capable, as well as more strategically minded makes them perfect for their role. They were the figureheads of the Legions, not just generals and warriors supreme. They were the Emperor's sons, his chosen few - by making them bigger, they are more like gods - a morale figure. By making them physically powerful, they inspire strength and means that they can hold their own from potential attackers if their soldiers were unable to. They are the fulcrum of the legion, the embodiment of the Emperor's strength in the Legions made manifest. If the Emperor's sons couldn't fight and lead, then how could the Legions be expected to serve the Emperor?

I don't see how being bigger means they're less of a leader.

Not like freakishly large though. For example Horus kneeling height being the same height as one of his Marines.

What would be the problem in that? I'd personally scale a Primarch at over Terminator sized, and under Dreadnought sized, purely on a logistical level for mobility.

I'm not talking about the capabilities, I'm saying that too much focus on size might detract from their intangible qualities.

But why? Just because someone is bigger than another, it doesn't mean the bigger person is any less smart. Size and smarts are not mutually exclusive.

We don't want to make them too much like Orks where "biggah is bettah" The Primarchs were infused with the power of the warp at their creation. They should fight with skill, not brute mass. They're humans after all. Humans are the superior race from their POV. Only an inferior race like the Orks needs to be big to do something.

No-one's saying they're better at fighting or smarter because they're bigger. I'm saying that, by making them bigger, they act as a symbol of strength and power - a morale symbol. Not their military effectiveness - their morale boosting effects. By having them as these imposing, demi-godly beings, you can inspire loyalty from mere humans, which was the goal of the Great Crusade - to unify humanity.

And no - the Primarchs are barely human. Space Marines are hardly human - they're posthuman. Primarchs are above a Space Marine as a Space Marine is above a human.

We talk about a handful of Space Marines saving the day. A handful. Space Marines are so damn good that we only need a handful of them to do serious damage. That's a testament to their amplification of power, of how size doesn't matter.

But it stands as testament that, when even the normally powerful Space Marines can't manage, application of a single Primarch can turn the tide of a war. One Primarch can turn the tide where a hundred Space Marines could not, and a hundred Space Marines are bigger than a Primarch.

We could have more focus on their ability to manage people too. Make them more normal sized and focus on that. The Primarchs weren't super large when they were first introduced. Not sure who had a giant fetish and made them such.

Why is being giant sized and able to manage people mutually exclusive? Just because they're bigger, it doesn't mean that they're any less capable than what they'd be as a normal sized man. By being both physically and mentally awe-inspiring, you have a good leader and figurehead in one package. They're no less impressive because of their size.

The Primarchs had other qualities. Some were said to be very handsome and that's why their men admired them. Handsome giants? hmmm...

Giants can certainly be handsome. I don't see why size would detract from that. If their proportions are all fine, why would that be an issue?

For example, you talk about figureheads. Jodi Ann Paterson doesn't have to be super large in order to be a cover girl. Of course, she's a model, not a warrior, but you get my drift.

Except that the demands of being a cover girl aren't the same as being a general and figurehead of a galactic military force.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Imperial_grunt wrote:
I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.

because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.

The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.

Being bigger doesn't make you less of a leader.

I think the Primarchs being larger and more physically capable, as well as more strategically minded makes them perfect for their role. They were the figureheads of the Legions, not just generals and warriors supreme. They were the Emperor's sons, his chosen few - by making them bigger, they are more like gods - a morale figure. By making them physically powerful, they inspire strength and means that they can hold their own from potential attackers if their soldiers were unable to. They are the fulcrum of the legion, the embodiment of the Emperor's strength in the Legions made manifest. If the Emperor's sons couldn't fight and lead, then how could the Legions be expected to serve the Emperor?

I don't see how being bigger means they're less of a leader.

Not like freakishly large though. For example Horus kneeling height being the same height as one of his Marines.

What would be the problem in that? I'd personally scale a Primarch at over Terminator sized, and under Dreadnought sized, purely on a logistical level for mobility.

I'm not talking about the capabilities, I'm saying that too much focus on size might detract from their intangible qualities.

But why? Just because someone is bigger than another, it doesn't mean the bigger person is any less smart. Size and smarts are not mutually exclusive.

We don't want to make them too much like Orks where "biggah is bettah" The Primarchs were infused with the power of the warp at their creation. They should fight with skill, not brute mass. They're humans after all. Humans are the superior race from their POV. Only an inferior race like the Orks needs to be big to do something.

No-one's saying they're better at fighting or smarter because they're bigger. I'm saying that, by making them bigger, they act as a symbol of strength and power - a morale symbol. Not their military effectiveness - their morale boosting effects. By having them as these imposing, demi-godly beings, you can inspire loyalty from mere humans, which was the goal of the Great Crusade - to unify humanity.

And no - the Primarchs are barely human. Space Marines are hardly human - they're posthuman. Primarchs are above a Space Marine as a Space Marine is above a human.

We talk about a handful of Space Marines saving the day. A handful. Space Marines are so damn good that we only need a handful of them to do serious damage. That's a testament to their amplification of power, of how size doesn't matter.

But it stands as testament that, when even the normally powerful Space Marines can't manage, application of a single Primarch can turn the tide of a war. One Primarch can turn the tide where a hundred Space Marines could not, and a hundred Space Marines are bigger than a Primarch.

We could have more focus on their ability to manage people too. Make them more normal sized and focus on that. The Primarchs weren't super large when they were first introduced. Not sure who had a giant fetish and made them such.

Why is being giant sized and able to manage people mutually exclusive? Just because they're bigger, it doesn't mean that they're any less capable than what they'd be as a normal sized man. By being both physically and mentally awe-inspiring, you have a good leader and figurehead in one package. They're no less impressive because of their size.

The Primarchs had other qualities. Some were said to be very handsome and that's why their men admired them. Handsome giants? hmmm...

Giants can certainly be handsome. I don't see why size would detract from that. If their proportions are all fine, why would that be an issue?

For example, you talk about figureheads. Jodi Ann Paterson doesn't have to be super large in order to be a cover girl. Of course, she's a model, not a warrior, but you get my drift.

Except that the demands of being a cover girl aren't the same as being a general and figurehead of a galactic military force.

Another example I can think of is Gods of Egypt



In fact it was Gods of Egypt that made me wonder about the new Primarch fluff. Its good if you like the new fluff, and I can see your points, but it comes across as rather Orkish for me. Just looks off.


Although we disagree over accents, don't take it so personally. Opinions can differ.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Another example I can think of is Gods of Egypt



In fact it was Gods of Egypt that made me wonder about the new Primarch fluff. Its good if you like the new fluff, and I can see your points, but it comes across as rather Orkish for me. Just looks off.

I think that actually looks pretty good. Maybe a little bit too tall for me, but the proportions are just right to fit a Primarch for me.

Although we disagree over accents, don't take it so personally. Opinions can differ.

I do apologise if you think I've been taking anything personally and being harsh about it. I'm just discussing the points raised.
My apologies if that comes across badly. I'm well aware opinions are opinions, and I'm not being influenced by any other threads when I make my comments.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Imperial_grunt wrote:
I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.

because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.

The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.

That's fine , but personally I think their physical size is good from a storytelling perspective, I believe it gives weight to their indomitable presence especially when they're described in the novels. The space marines are a step above humanity but they are so watered down and inferior compared to the primarchs that they are resculpted to emulate. I know that there is far more to power than size, but still it's a great analogy for the primarchs godly power in my opinion.

No need to feel intimidated by their height, they're really great guys once you get to know them!

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Imperial_grunt wrote:
I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.

because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.

The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.

Agreed. I am fine with them being a head taller or so, but not orgryn sized leviathans.

 Frazzled wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Imperial_grunt wrote:
I don't mind, they're put forward as demi-gods who dwarf the space marines in power, so I think they should be taller to match. Doesn't bother me one bit.

because I don't like the idea that they use sheer mass like an Ork. I want them to be leaders. Leaders IRL are usually tall, but there's so much more to a great human leader than being a super duper soldier.

The Primarchs tower over their Marines like a teacher over children. I think it somehow lessens the leadership qualities of the Primarchs.

Agreed. I am fine with them being a head taller or so, but not orgryn sized leviathans.

yes, that's my POV

The Primarchs are genetically created from scratch using DNA from the Emperor himself [who is supposed to be indistinguishable from a literal god] to be walking demi gods amongst men and lead armies of superhuman warriors. They are supposed to be the most awe inspiring things bar the Emperor himself and the most fear inducing things to the enemies of man that is literally possible. Considering basically every single enemy of mankind is always much bigger than us, like normal orks are the size of three men, with warbosses easily as big or even bigger than Primarchs, Tyranids the size of tanks and buildings and god damn demons from another dimension. They need to be seen on the battlefield as a rallying point for friendly forces, not to mention inspire limitless devotion to fight against the horrendous and seemingly limitless enemies of man.

So yeah, they should be frigging huge by human standards, and no it doesnt bother me, it would bother me a gak ton if they were only like 7 feet tall. Ive seen a real 7 foot tall man IRL and its not super impressive.

10-14 feet tall immortal demi gods walking among men, wielding swords capable of cutting a lemon russ in half and leading hordes of superhuman warriors - THATS fething AWESOME.

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

Considering basically every single enemy of mankind is always much bigger than us

So yeah, they should be frigging huge by human standards, and no it doesnt bother me, it would bother me a gak ton if they were only like 7 feet tall. Ive seen a real 7 foot tall man IRL and its not super impressive.

10-14 feet tall immortal demi gods walking among men, wielding swords capable of cutting a lemon russ in half and leading hordes of superhuman warriors - THATS fething AWESOME.

I think it'd be even more awesome if they were only 7 feet tall and could do all that. Right?

Which impresses you more, Thor knocking out Goliath or David knocking out Goliath?

The motion of the ocean, ya know?

So he's a shapeshifter?
Considering his achievements throughout time, and being able to do it all low-key, 'revealing himself' when humanity needed it - he has an ability, at least to some degree - to disguise himself completely.

Not a shapeshifter proper, but at least able to hide his true self, yes. I always interpreted it as a psychic power. Essentially he can control how humans around him actually 'see' him with a psychic projection of sorts.

So how can we ever know what he "really" looks like? We're basically taking him at his word, and he's deceived us before.

It does say actually no one has seen his true face and that you see who or what you want to see. Unless he wants you to see a certain image of him. [all in the horus heresy series] Also isnt it Corax who has the physic ability to hide in plain site by making people not register him when they look at him - in the raven has fallen he uses this trick to walk the Istavan V battlefield after the battle when its still filled with traitor marines. So if he can do that, i assume the most powerful psyker can also do that or batter.

I'm not a fan. I think the FW Primarchs scale well compared to normal marines; basically just as big to a marine as the marine would be to an average human. I'm talking 3-4 feet taller max. The new Guilliman model is like, two stories tall. It's a bit much if you ask me.

 Luciferian wrote:
I'm not a fan. I think the FW Primarchs scale well compared to normal marines; basically just as big to a marine as the marine would be to an average human. I'm talking 3-4 feet taller max. The new Guilliman model is like, two stories tall. It's a bit much if you ask me.

Indeed if we look at these, they are clearly larger but not freaking walking greater demons (ok maybe Angron...)

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-IE/Corvus-Corax
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Vulkan-Primarch-of-the-Salamanders
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Angron-Primarch-of-the-World-Eaters

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

Considering basically every single enemy of mankind is always much bigger than us

So yeah, they should be frigging huge by human standards, and no it doesnt bother me, it would bother me a gak ton if they were only like 7 feet tall. Ive seen a real 7 foot tall man IRL and its not super impressive.

10-14 feet tall immortal demi gods walking among men, wielding swords capable of cutting a lemon russ in half and leading hordes of superhuman warriors - THATS fething AWESOME.

I think it'd be even more awesome if they were only 7 feet tall and could do all that. Right?

Which impresses you more, Thor knocking out Goliath or David knocking out Goliath?

The motion of the ocean, ya know?

It would be a more impressive physical challenge, yes, BUT they need to be awe inspiring to super human soldiers above all else, who already are 7-8 feet tall and consider themselves "above" humanity. Big things impress the primal part of our mind. Look at the USA as a prime example - most things are unnecessarily large over there because for starters, its just more cool like that EG: You walk past a skyscraper and go wow that gak is awesome its soooo tall. You may go past a small but pretty building and think, awe cute, but you you not in awe of it. =)

Basically i totally see the reasoning for huge primarchs. Its primal man.

Napoleon was impressive but he was normal height. Same for Alexander. The need to be superhero freak sized is comic book level.

In realm it was Solar Macharius, a mere man, who had the most victories.

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

Considering basically every single enemy of mankind is always much bigger than us

So yeah, they should be frigging huge by human standards, and no it doesnt bother me, it would bother me a gak ton if they were only like 7 feet tall. Ive seen a real 7 foot tall man IRL and its not super impressive.

10-14 feet tall immortal demi gods walking among men, wielding swords capable of cutting a lemon russ in half and leading hordes of superhuman warriors - THATS fething AWESOME.

I think it'd be even more awesome if they were only 7 feet tall and could do all that. Right?

Which impresses you more, Thor knocking out Goliath or David knocking out Goliath?

The motion of the ocean, ya know?

It would be a more impressive physical challenge, yes, BUT they need to be awe inspiring to super human soldiers above all else, who already are 7-8 feet tall and consider themselves "above" humanity. Big things impress the primal part of our mind. Look at the USA as a prime example - most things are unnecessarily large over there because for starters, its just more cool like that EG: You walk past a skyscraper and go wow that gak is awesome its soooo tall. You may go past a small but pretty building and think, awe cute, but you you not in awe of it. =)

Basically i totally see the reasoning for huge primarchs. Its primal man.

If a big guy accomplishes a feat, the little guys might say, "yeah of course. he's so big."

Whereas if a little guy accomplishes the same feat, the little guys would say, "Wow, that fellow, like one of us but so awesome" and I think it'd inspire them even more.


Goliath looked big and impressive, but David made quick work of him. So Goliath was just a slow, big lumbering brute, and David was the hero.

So I think its more about the feats and not the size.


Gods of Egypt made me realise this. Though one of their writers might have been inspired by the HH novels giant Primarch thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Another example I can think of is Gods of Egypt



In fact it was Gods of Egypt that made me wonder about the new Primarch fluff. Its good if you like the new fluff, and I can see your points, but it comes across as rather Orkish for me. Just looks off.

I think that actually looks pretty good. Maybe a little bit too tall for me, but the proportions are just right to fit a Primarch for me.

Although we disagree over accents, don't take it so personally. Opinions can differ.

I do apologise if you think I've been taking anything personally and being harsh about it. I'm just discussing the points raised.
My apologies if that comes across badly. I'm well aware opinions are opinions, and I'm not being influenced by any other threads when I make my comments.

It just looks too freakish to me. Like how Ork Warbosses and Skaven Rat Ogres tower over others. Good for Abnett if you like it, but I honestly feel the setting would be better if the Primarchs were more normal-sized.

Leaders didn't used to need to be huge in 40k because in RT/2nd ed they all wore backpack banners to be easily identified on the battleground.

Now you can't mark out your characters with pretty flags, heroic models need to be heroic^2 scale.

nareik wrote:
Leaders didn't used to need to be huge in 40k because in RT/2nd ed they all wore backpack banners to be easily identified on the battleground.

Now you can't mark out your characters with pretty flags, heroic models need to be heroic^2 scale.

Well you can still use banners. Mine have them.

"what is that?"
"its a dreadnought"
"why does it have a shark's face"
"because its a dreadnought"
"Its too small."
"Its older than your Dad is. Now go away"