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Napoleon was just a bit under 5'7".

The average frenchman of that age was slightly under 5'4".

So about 3" taller than average. He did like his personal guard to be some of his tallest soldiers, to give his circle an air of intimidation.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Napoleon was a little guy,

No, he wasn't.

He was depicted as a little guy by British media. He was actually a little above average height for the time.

 amanita wrote:
Napoleon was just a bit under 5'7".

The average frenchman of that age was slightly under 5'4".

So about 3" taller than average. He did like his personal guard to be some of his tallest soldiers, to give his circle an air of intimidation.

Huh, well how about that. British propaganda has apparently done it's work, "Napoleonic complex" and everything. WIki gives 5'6", but thanks for the heads up, regardless.

That said, it wasn't like he was 8 feet tall and required some supersized horse mount.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Napoleon was a little guy,

No, he wasn't.

He was depicted as a little guy by British media. He was actually a little above average height for the time.

 amanita wrote:
Napoleon was just a bit under 5'7".

The average frenchman of that age was slightly under 5'4".

So about 3" taller than average. He did like his personal guard to be some of his tallest soldiers, to give his circle an air of intimidation.

Huh, well how about that. British propaganda has apparently done it's work, "Napoleonic complex" and everything. WIki gives 5'6", but thanks for the heads up, regardless.

That said, it wasn't like he was 8 feet tall and required some supersized horse mount.

Now you're talking about Raoh

Part of it was that Napoleon chose huge guys for his bodyguard; If you saw him being dwarfed by the 6' + soldiers standing round him, you might think he was short too.

And also perhaps that the French foot was 10% longer at the time. 1.68m is 5'6" in English units, but only 5' in French units (one French inch was 27.8mm rather than 25.4).

At some point you physically cannot add more muscle to a humanoid frame before it becomes impractical. Many body builders literally cannot touch their own shoulders or back due to the sheer bulk of muscle on their arms.

Primarchs were meant to be many times stronger than a standard marine. If you piled on the muscle mass of a primarch onto a marine he'd probably be a literal ball and be unable to move well in combat.

Even assuming magick sooper science, muscle density has a definite upper limit that cannot be surpassed (i.e. the size of a cell). You can't just make muscles "more effecient" indefinitely. That's probably why primarchs had to be bigger; the emperor perfected physiological modification and simply had to scale up to make any improvements.

I actually don't mind that they are bigger than the normal Space Marine.

It really does seem fitting to me since they are a partial aspect of the Emperor himself that they have resemblance of him, even if it is in size.

If we are going to line them up from tallest to shortest I see it going:
Emperor
Adeptus Custodes
Primarch
Space Marines
IG
Then those other smaller like fellows.

How big would you say Thunder Warriors are compared to Astartes and Custodians?

From the Word Bearers' conflict with surviving Thunder Warriors there's a description of '4 or 5 astartes lying slain next to the hulking carcass of a Thunder Warrior'. suggesting that they're significantly larger than a regular Astartes.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
How big would you say Thunder Warriors are compared to Astartes and Custodians?

From the Word Bearers' conflict with surviving Thunder Warriors there's a description of '4 or 5 astartes lying slain next to the hulking carcass of a Thunder Warrior'. suggesting that they're significantly larger than a regular Astartes.

Thunder Warriors are new to me, or to my memory.

But I would say they are at least same size as Custodes, if not a little taller.

I do imagine all of this retelling of tales to make them appear bigger is an effort to appear heroic. If such beings were real, they all would be small, hunched backed, greasy, dirty, old men...that smell of unknown cheeses.

 ProtoClone wrote:
I actually don't mind that they are bigger than the normal Space Marine.

It really does seem fitting to me since they are a partial aspect of the Emperor himself that they have resemblance of him, even if it is in size.

If we are going to line them up from tallest to shortest I see it going:
Emperor
Adeptus Custodes
Primarch
Space Marines
IG
Then those other smaller like fellows.

I'd prefer that the Spazz Emprah was human sized and that primarchs were the size of marines, or just slightly larger. I don't understand why they have to be demon machines. The were genetic progenitors of marines. Its logical that they would be the same size as their genetic similars which were derived from them.

Of course I always preferred that marines themselves were human sized, or slightly larger, and that their stature (and strength) resulted from their ridiculously large marine armor.

I never understood the need to make them physically pseudogiantlike. All that mass has to be protected after all, and pretty soon you're talking crisis suit size. And if your armor weighs a literal ton, its all about the "power" part of power armor that matters, not your physical strength (all aspects in line with Starship Troopers, who were similar to apes in armor but if the armor switched off, they were frozen in place).

I think it's worth repeating that they are meant to reflect Greek gods and the like, hence the fantastical size - it is meant to evoke their superhuman, if not outright inhuman nature. I do not see any problems with this.

Is this thread for real or just trolling? Seriously people are debating the realism of primarchs, what classifies as post/super humam and even the scales of models.

40k is and has been a lot of things but it has never been realistic as a setting and the models and game have never been in scale.

Sweet merciful emperor what has the internetz come to?

Spudasaurous wrote:
Is this thread for real or just trolling? Seriously people are debating the realism of primarchs, what classifies as post/super humam and even the scales of models.

40k is and has been a lot of things but it has never been realistic as a setting and the models and game have never been in scale.

Sweet merciful emperor what has the internetz come to?

Don't be a party pooper.
Debating fiction in logical terms has been a passtime for as long as fiction has existed.

I always seen space marines and primarchs as more of figure heads. Their effectiveness is over done to inspire the people.

If marines where as perfect as they claim the imperal guard would not be needed.

So the primarchs are made to look perfect huge and menising then they actually are for people to have a figure head to get behind. So all their exploits and such is overdone because it is second hand account. Hell wasn't it lorgar or one of them that's first memory was he was on the side of a cliff and knew if he fell he would die?

I like to think that the special gene-crafting that the Emperor did was writing plot-armour and an overall 'largeness' of character into the Primarchs, rather than just tweaking their telomeres to make them immortal. They were crafted on a metaphysical level, not merely the genetic information expressing their biological parts, but also the genetic information fixing their fates and their place in the universe.

I like to think of Astartes as being 6'-7' but Andre the Giant-wide in proportion, whereas the Primarchs were similarly big but not afflicted by the gigantism of the Astartes process.

Nurglitch wrote:
I like to think that the special gene-crafting that the Emperor did was writing plot-armour and an overall 'largeness' of character into the Primarchs, rather than just tweaking their telomeres to make them immortal. They were crafted on a metaphysical level, not merely the genetic information expressing their biological parts, but also the genetic information fixing their fates and their place in the universe.

I like to think of Astartes as being 6'-7' but Andre the Giant-wide in proportion, whereas the Primarchs were similarly big but not afflicted by the gigantism of the Astartes process.

I think if I understand you correctly it kinda makes sense, in order to keep the legion up to code they are placed with their pure gene code marker. The primarch who they can use as a template to keep their code up to date. Or back to origins as you could say.

I do sometimes think it's a bit comical whenever a primarch interacts with a human that they're talking to something that barely reaches their waist.

 Elbows wrote:
I don't mind the idea of Primarchs. I do mind the idea that somehow after all of the fighting they've done, none were hit by... a Titan's plasma annihilator

One of them did... twice, he was fine.

I always kind of think of them in this sort of way (This isn't based on any info from novels - just my speculation):

Tall Human = 6ft
Marine = 7ft
Custodian/Terminator = 7.5ft
Primarch: 7-8ft
Terminator Primarch: 8ft - 9ft

At best I reckon that Vulkan, as the largest Primarch, is only going to be at maximum 9ft in full TDA, shorter in PA. Most other Primarchs, I guess would be around 7-8ft depending. I don't mind the idea of them being tall compared to a human, but anywhere bigger than 8ft on average is too much IMHO. In terms of doorways and such, their size changes over history anyway. If I walk into an Elizabethan Tudor house, I'm gonna be close to banging my head and I'm roughly 5'6, because people were a lot smaller back then. However, in my own Victorian house, the doorways are that much bigger again so I'm fine. Architectural styles change all the time so it's not too far fetched to believe that by M30, the average doorway may be 7ft x 4ft, to accommodate all shapes and sizes of people and machines. Sure, it might be a squeeze for an 8ft Primarch, but there's plenty of tall people who just duck when it comes to a low doorway. By way of comparison, if you've ever played a HALO game, Spartans are said to be 7ft in Mjolnir Armour. They look tall next to humans, but not freakish - that's how high I imagine a marine would be.

For example (I know it's Halo, but it represents the same sorts of heights marines are said to be):



Guy playing Master Chief is 6ft 8in outside his armour, possibly a little more inside. According to Google. the lass next to him is 5'2". I couldn't find out the lad's height (Which probably says something about the internet). However, if she's a short human and he's a tall human, then they are both short compared to the 'Spartan'. Figure it's similar for a Space Marine.



^7ft Spartan, Normal Sized Human.



^8ft Sanghelii, Normal Human



^Finally, a pretty good comparison of 8ft Sanghelii, 7ft Spartan.

Making the Primarchs and the Carriongod homongous and Dragonball level overpowered is imo just an extremely lazy way to avoid overly much effort to make them otherwise interesting.
Logic, fine characterisation and reasonable plots? Who needs such heresy! Lets bring more exhausting battlescenes were Gary Stu takes on entire planets almost by himself.
Don't get me wrong, i love some well written action but just as large swaths of BL have become little more than badly written bolterporn so have the protagonists become little more than badly written
caricatures with stupendous powers (as i said, easier to impress trough scale than trough good writing) but otherwise very little substance.

Yeah I like the idea of Primarchs being a cut above SM in terms of power, but still relative small-fry in terms of the galactic terrors out there.

Makes the universe seem more grimdark, and the Primarch's struggle and success all the more impressive.

I like them being badass genetically engineered super-super soldiers with psychic powers. I don't like them being literal Gods.

Make them equal in power to Greater Daemons, as that's not far from what they actually are

Its already ben beaten to gak in this thread but the Primarch's aren't human at all. Built from essence of the emperor, warp tech and with the best genetech ever created. The Emperor himself exerted so much of himself in this project that even he could never do it again. And that he was doing this while taking over and unifying the world with his thunder warriors (Could have taken hundreds of years to complete and perfect).

They are supposed to be extremely unnatural. A Primarch is to a marine as a marine is to a normal human. Humans were so put off by Primarch's that in their presence forgot basic motor function.

So back to the original thread, They are not Brutish, ungainly, freaks like Orks. They are calculating, brilliant, and magestic. Also FW needed to make their models in a class to themselves. As to stand out on the table top like they would have in battle.

Magnus is a deamon Prince model. He is supposed to be huge.... all fluffy. So will all the other Primarch princes that get released.



Another common trend in this thread is why havnt they been destroyed in the hundreds of years of combat in the crusade. By orbital blasts etc.

Black library intentionally writes novels and fluff that with them doing to insane. Primarch's charging into hell sells novels.

But realistically, Like all commander's they command... Even with the ability to destroy and kill on their own. Their best weapons are their legions and fleets.... They use their Marines. And occasionnaly insert themselves in areas of highpayoff. ie Horus teleporting to kill the human proxy emperor in the first book.

Also they have a destiny yet to be fulfilled. The warp is on many of their sides. And their latent psychic power or armor and tech helps avoid death from a titan (lorgar.. sick).

KingDeath wrote:
Making the Primarchs and the Carriongod homongous and Dragonball level overpowered is imo just an extremely lazy way to avoid overly much effort to make them otherwise interesting.
Logic, fine characterisation and reasonable plots? Who needs such heresy! Lets bring more exhausting battlescenes were Gary Stu takes on entire planets almost by himself.
Don't get me wrong, i love some well written action but just as large swaths of BL have become little more than badly written bolterporn so have the protagonists become little more than badly written
caricatures with stupendous powers (as i said, easier to impress trough scale than trough good writing) but otherwise very little substance.

yes, i agree

I quite like it, it makes them stand out. What I'm not too fond of is them being mythical, basically invincible, warriors.

 ProtoClone wrote:
I actually don't mind that they are bigger than the normal Space Marine.

It really does seem fitting to me since they are a partial aspect of the Emperor himself that they have resemblance of him, even if it is in size.

That's not problem I think. Problem is difference is too much. I always liked idea of primarch being about as much taller to marine as marine is to human.

Giant Primarchs are silly (and giant Emperor even more so.)

Sure, I'm fine with the Primarchs being somewhat larger than an average marine, but like a head taller at most. A heroic leader that stands out, not some ridiculous giant monstrosity that makes the normal marines to look like toddlers.

The giant Primarch thing was started by BL, but unfortunately it was adopted by FW and now by the main studio too. (I'd love to see new scale Primarch trying to wear the Lion Helm...)

 Insectum7 wrote:
Magnus is another thing all together. He's a Daemon Primarch, a complete warp mutant whose appearance can be shifted at will. He's completely turned his back on his own humanity, thus, hes a monster.

The Emp does all that as well.

It all goes back to the 10ft tall and bullet proof phrase.
Most house doors I see are about 7ft tall. Wheres the majesty if someone has to bow walking into the Austen Tayshus guvs pad.
Theyd be smashing up the govnas house or hitting some power plant. Or just walking through wood and plaster.
Primarchs would never be house to house clearing. Thats a Guard job.

There is one, and only one, explanation that actually makes sense regarding Big E (given that he's supposedly godly-powerful, yet needed help to conquer Terra, and needed help to conquer the galaxy which he didn't actually do very well)...



Doffs tinfoil hat and exits stage left

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
There is one, and only one, explanation that actually makes sense regarding Big E (given that he's supposedly godly-powerful, yet needed help to conquer Terra, and needed help to conquer the galaxy which he didn't actually do very well)...

Not necessarily. 'Godly-powerful' isn't a single absolute property.

From what I've read of the Heresy books the Emperor created the Primarchs because a) he couldn't be everywhere at once, especially once the Great Crusade started, and running more fleets in parallel would get the job done faster, b) he needed to be able to interface with, manipulate, and affect human society in ways that required presenting humanity with a debate/discussion, and c) because he needed to be able to put trustworthy subordinates in charge of the day-to-day. Parts B and C were things he was trying to set up for later that didn't end up coming to pass because of the Chaos Gods' interference, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a somewhat sensible reason for trying to set them up.

As for the Emperor's 'godly powers', spoilers for Master of Mankind follow:



(Addendum: And as for the original question I like the 30k Primarch models that stand head-and-shoulders over big Space Marines. They're big, but they're restrained/sensible big and they're sort of just tall enough to be a 'giant' to everyone else without being ridiculous or impractical; they're designed to invoke awe and be representations of the Emperor's will on the field, it makes sense they're set up to be taller than everybody. What I don't like is Magnus' 40k-era Titan-sized model. Size may be mutable to the creatures of the Warp but he just looks silly.)

My personal opinion is primarchs are stupid. When a battleships have the power to lay wastes to entire planets and you have 500 foot titans - I don't see the real value of making a 10 foot tall super warrior commander thing. It would have 0 actual ability to affect anything in a setting where things this powerful exist...Ofc there is the psychic element but this is also stupid - if psykers are this strong what is the point of having armies?

Oh, I absolutely agree. Just because something is more powerful than we can comprehend, it doesn't mean that it too doesn't have limits. The issue I often take with many interpretations of the Emperor is that those limits seem fairly forced and arbitrary, shifting back and forth as the plot demands it. It's an issue with making something 'god-like' and then struggling to make a compelling struggle out of it.

That's why I prefer my interpretation of the Emperor to be on the lower end of those limits.

If he's literally on a par with the Chaos Gods power-wise, psychically more capable than any other living entity, able to change his body size at will, and all these other superpowers (a term that I use in a derogatory sense when it comes to realism) then it makes for a fairly tedious character in my opinion, flawed personality or not. I absolutely love the idea in your spoiler about The Emperor being 'just smart enough to get himself into trouble', and 'messing with powers beyond his control'. Putting him on that level of capability makes for a much more compelling struggle.

Now, I had written a veritable essay about how it's better if he started off as human (and I still think it is, somewhat), but I'm coming round to the whole 'gestalt entity comprised of shaman souls' thing. With one important proviso: that he's no more powerful individually than a Daemon Prince.

He still gets to be a badass on the battlefield, still gets to be some weird otherworldly entity (which is quite grimdark for humanity to be worshipping), still gets to be a powerful psyker.

However, in relative terms he's still small-fry. He can't take the galaxy by himself. Daemon Princes have well defined limits of what they're capable of. He would need the rest of the Great Crusade to unite humanity. He's less anathema/on par with the Chaos Gods, more a bit of a trickster who's cheated them of a portion of their power.

Yep. Think I'm ok with that

As for the Primarchs, I do think FW has got it right size-wise. Significantly bigger and bulkier than a Marine, but dinky next to a Bloodthirster. I'd also like it if the rules/killyness/toughness for a standard Primarch was less than a Bloodthirster too. They're generals, not necessarily killing machines.

 Xenomancers wrote:
My personal opinion is primarchs are stupid. When a battleships have the power to lay wastes to entire planets and you have 500 foot titans - I don't see the real value of making a 10 foot tall super warrior commander thing. It would have 0 actual ability to affect anything in a setting where things this powerful exist...Ofc there is the psychic element but this is also stupid - if psykers are this strong what is the point of having armies?

Yes because the mighty US military hit everything, first shot, everytime. Even these days they can barely hit a tank, and they have to fire twice, just to make sure.
That 10 ft Primarch is a walking smashem up flag. Hes gonna smash up anything you bring to the table. Hiis/its foot print is probably less than 2 square meters. When hes falling from the sky and smashing up the launch pad.
Theres a reason people dont go chucking nukes around willy nilly.