Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Into Darkness is even more embarassing than TFA when it comes to rehashing - but there agian, we're seeing a studio executive dictate. JJ Abrams obviously doesn't know or care about Star Trek so yeah I am not surprised he couldn't make much out of studio orders to remake Wrath of Khan. By contrast, he clearly does get SW and where his Star Trek movies are completely tone deaf to that franchise (arguably why he was hired in the first place) his SW movie feels like a SW movie - not because oh golly gee there's a ball-shaped super weapon and uh oh here comes Harrison Ford with a bad feeling about this - but rather because yes that is a soaring, exciting shot of the Falcon turning flips through TIE fighters! It's not a staid Lucas picture no but it IS definitely SW. And I think he could have used the screentime much more wisely than his White Slaver masters were willing to allow.

Why didn't the Imperial Navy just leverage it's huge material advantage over the rebellion at Endor and send hundreds of ISDs at them at once? From all directions? Just endless swarms of TIE fighters and star destroyers firing at them from all directions. Why didn't they burn the forests around the bunker for miles around and set up bunkers, E-web nests and minefields? Why don't they double check people who land in their top secret areas? Why didn't the Empire build the Death Star over a fortress world? The plot of Star Wars doesn't really add up when you think about it critically. But it makes for nice adventure stories about plucky heroes fighting an evil authoritarian regime.

Because Evil is dumb. Unless evil needs to win, then Good is dumb.

Although I have a hard time considering the Jedi of the latter day Old Republic to be "good."

 Peregrine wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah the prequels show the problem of one guy having complete creative control without being up to it. And then the Disney movies show the problem of the creative people having very little control. Weirdly, same kind of result: plot-by-fiat.

I think it's more than just plot-by-fiat. The prequels weren't bad because there were plot holes, we liked the original trilogy just fine despite the plot holes. They were bad because of horrible pacing, random toy commercial tangents, excessive (and badly done) comic relief, the whole cringe-worthy romance plot, etc. Likewise, TFA's problem isn't so much that things happen because the plot needs them, it's that things happen because the CGI needs them. It's not even a plot, it's just a flimsy excuse to chain the various CGI spectacles together. And I don't think it's a result of too little control by the creative people, TFA and its flaws follow very clearly from the director's Star Trek movies.

There was a plot?

He should have stayed the man behind the scene, and should have mad Jar Jar Binks Emperor, sprinkle the galaxy with Sith incursions like with Count Dookuh

 Melissia wrote:
Hate to provide a short, pithy answer, but...

... the moment he turned to the dark side.

The thing is, the dark side is ultimately less powerful than the light side. The main advantage is that a dark side jedi will obtain their peak of power more quickly. But once a light side jedi surpasses them, it's only a matter of time before the dark side is overcome.

And the galaxy is vast, so very vast. Stopping there from being a light side jedi who has the instincts and discipline to exceed the dark side is ultimately impossible. Palpatine succeeded for a while... but his downfall was inevitable.

Considering the most powerful force user we say in movie was a dark side user I am not certain what you mean by that.

In the movies we've seen what four bad guy force users. All of them were effectively top tier guys (well maybe not emo Ren but he's still tougher then his competition).
Palpatine was the strongest force user seen.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Because Evil is dumb. Unless evil needs to win, then Good is dumb.

Although I have a hard time considering the Jedi of the latter day Old Republic to be "good."

Agreed.

It started falling apart once he achieved the power he was seeking. Then he also had to deal with the fact that the same Force which helped him destroy the Jedi was turning against him.

The Force can be a real jerk.

 Breotan wrote:
It started falling apart once he achieved the power he was seeking. Then he also had to deal with the fact that the same Force which helped him destroy the Jedi was turning against him.

The Force can be a real jerk.

“May the Force be with you” is not just a hollow expression. When the force is on your side, you are invincible. You can stand alone against armies, everything falls into place around you. But when the Force is against you, nothing you can do turns out right. And the force is fickle. We’ve seen it turn.

It’s plot armor and plot device together. And in a pseudo 4th-wall fashion, the people living in the Star Wars universe can sense it. Maybe that’s why Yoda went to Dagobah. He was just meta-savy.

 Peregrine wrote:
Let's be honest, Palpatine was doing pretty well as dictator too. The rebellion wins because the plot requires them to, not because they should have been a real threat. If Luke isn't the designated protagonist of the story his torpedo shot misses just like his squadron leader's shot, the death star destroys Yavin, and the rebellion is crushed. If the plot doesn't require Vader to let the rebels through the shield to do plot things for an hour instead of tractor beaming the shuttle and dealing with Luke immediately the rebel fleet is annihilated over Endor. The one time we see the rebels go up against the empire without being guaranteed a victory by the plot, at Hoth, the rebel defenses are brushed aside in a massacre and the best the rebels can do is sacrifice their meatshields to buy time for some of the important stuff to escape.

Don't forget the boarding of Leia's ship at the start of A New Hope. Stormtroopers do well against non-protagonists. And okay, they performed poorly against the Ewoks, but they were a warrior/hunter race at least (I like to think they had to use swarm tactics too).


Really I think Palpatine's main problem was his obsession with Luke Skywalker. Take away that and he never tortures Luke in front of Vader so Vader doesn't turn and he destroys the Rebel fleet instead of keeping it around to slowly die to provoke Luke.

Well Palatine was obsessed with the Skywalkers in general-back to Anakin. This brings up uncomfortable thoughts...yerg pedoEmprah!

Thyat explains so much...

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Let's be honest, Palpatine was doing pretty well as dictator too. The rebellion wins because the plot requires them to, not because they should have been a real threat. If Luke isn't the designated protagonist of the story his torpedo shot misses just like his squadron leader's shot, the death star destroys Yavin, and the rebellion is crushed. If the plot doesn't require Vader to let the rebels through the shield to do plot things for an hour instead of tractor beaming the shuttle and dealing with Luke immediately the rebel fleet is annihilated over Endor. The one time we see the rebels go up against the empire without being guaranteed a victory by the plot, at Hoth, the rebel defenses are brushed aside in a massacre and the best the rebels can do is sacrifice their meatshields to buy time for some of the important stuff to escape.

Don't forget the boarding of Leia's ship at the start of A New Hope. Stormtroopers do well against non-protagonists. And okay, they performed poorly against the Ewoks, but they were a warrior/hunter race at least (I like to think they had to use swarm tactics too).


Really I think Palpatine's main problem was his obsession with Luke Skywalker. Take away that and he never tortures Luke in front of Vader so Vader doesn't turn and he destroys the Rebel fleet instead of keeping it around to slowly die to provoke Luke.

Rogue One demonstrates that your average Stormtrooper run blindly into machine gun fire to die by dozen and can be taken down by a martial artist with a stick. Why the Galactic Empire discontinued using their actually competent Clone Troopers is a mystery.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Let's be honest, Palpatine was doing pretty well as dictator too. The rebellion wins because the plot requires them to, not because they should have been a real threat. If Luke isn't the designated protagonist of the story his torpedo shot misses just like his squadron leader's shot, the death star destroys Yavin, and the rebellion is crushed. If the plot doesn't require Vader to let the rebels through the shield to do plot things for an hour instead of tractor beaming the shuttle and dealing with Luke immediately the rebel fleet is annihilated over Endor. The one time we see the rebels go up against the empire without being guaranteed a victory by the plot, at Hoth, the rebel defenses are brushed aside in a massacre and the best the rebels can do is sacrifice their meatshields to buy time for some of the important stuff to escape.

Don't forget the boarding of Leia's ship at the start of A New Hope. Stormtroopers do well against non-protagonists. And okay, they performed poorly against the Ewoks, but they were a warrior/hunter race at least (I like to think they had to use swarm tactics too).


Really I think Palpatine's main problem was his obsession with Luke Skywalker. Take away that and he never tortures Luke in front of Vader so Vader doesn't turn and he destroys the Rebel fleet instead of keeping it around to slowly die to provoke Luke.

Rogue One demonstrates that your average Stormtrooper run blindly into machine gun fire to die by dozen and can be taken down by a martial artist with a stick. Why the Galactic Empire discontinued using their actually competent Clone Troopers is a mystery.

If only the Empire had a few Marine Rifle instructors...the rebellion would have never had a chance...

Palpatine was doomed as soon as the ink dried on his Sith Lord/ Sith Apprentice Betrayal Agreement

 Frazzled wrote:


If only the Empire had a few Marine Rifle instructors...the rebellion would have never had a chance...

I think you are unfairly blaming the Storm Trooper. Building two new deathstars meant cuts had to be made and given the lack of any serious opposition they cut back on the design of their weapons and armour. No one planned for ewoks with bolas.

Anyway I really think it went wrong when Palpatine told Vader to go and get something to eat and he had a run in with the catering staff.

 Nevelon wrote:

“May the Force be with you” is not just a hollow expression. When the force is on your side, you are invincible. You can stand alone against armies, everything falls into place around you. But when the Force is against you, nothing you can do turns out right. And the force is fickle. We’ve seen it turn.

Luck be a lady toniiiiight!

 kronk wrote:
Luck be a lady toniiiiight!

Luck nothing, pray to the storyboarder!

 Manchu wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Luck be a lady toniiiiight!

Luck nothing, pray to the storyboarder!

Oh snap!

I think my viewpoint is pretty much completely different to the thread so far.

And I think that's because my opinion is very much informed by Frank Herbert's Dune.

My argument is simply this. Nothing. Nothing went wrong, not a single thing, right up until Vader made his choice. When Palpatine says, "everything is proceeding as I have foreseen" he's not grandstanding, he is being completely 100% factual.

To explain, I'll go back to Dune. Dune is a really complex, multilayered novel and part of it is plans-within-plans-within-plans.

Why do the Harkonnen's want Arrakis?
On the surface, it's a simple revenge story, hatred of the Atreides taking it from them, their oldest enemy.
Wrong.
Digging deeper, it's the spice, money. He who controls the spice, controls the universe.
Wrong.

Way, way deep inside, under all the layers. The reason the Harkonne, the Atreides want Arrakis... It's the Fremen. Nothing to do with the spice at all, the spice is a vulnerability, a crutch.

So, back to Star Wars and Palpatine.

The Death Star, The Empire, The Rebellion, lives, ships, materials. They don't matter. Not a single bit. *ALL* that matters is the Force and creating and developing the situation where the single most powerful force wielder, aside from yourself, is subservient to one person. You and you alone.

Luke *had* to destroy the Death Star. Luke *had* to enlist with the Rebellion. Luke *had* to develop friend and companionships. Luke *had* to have hope, faith. He *had* to have all of these.

So they could be crushed. Utterly, completely. It wasn't about luring the Rebellion into the trap. No, it was about Luke *seeing* the Rebellion being lured into a trap. It's about Luke *seeing* his greatest achievement - The destruction of the Death Star, being rendered utterly, completely pointless with the Death Star II

The only thing. The only thing that went wrong for Palpatine, the only single, tiny, tiny, glimmerest, little thing that went wrong for Palpatine.

A fathers love for his son.

And that is the reason that Palpatine lost and the only reason. And that's what makes Star Wars a great story.

I like this guy. He should post more.

 Compel wrote:

A fathers love for his son.

Or son for his father. It works either way. The irony is that Vengeance of the Sith completely marginalizes the "Power of Love", it's more a "Fear of Loss leading to Loss" picture.

Well sure, that's called poetry.

Compell - RotJ really got the Emperor/Vader/Luke scenes right. But there is also a battle where teddy bears mop the floor with the Emperor's "best troops." So let's just imagine that we leave in the great scenes and take out the teddy bears. The Emperor dies, sure. And Vader dies, too. But then probably Luke dies, too, as soon as the Royal Guards come back into the room and are like WTF. Because the DS-2 shields would still be up and - here again I am just assuming that the Imperial military is the sort that would not be defeated by teddy bears, you know for the sake of argument - the Rebellion would be fethed beyond salvage.

So I guess, yeah, it still ended up badly for Palpatine but the Empire would have won. But anyway that means the answer to OP's question is, like someone else already said, Palpatine fethed up when he became obsessed with Luke. And really we kind of have the same story as LotR, where Sauron was just too evil to figure that people can do things for unselfish reasons. The problem is, the intensely personal relationships between Luke and Vader and Vader and Palpatine don't really connect to this larger political/military conflict, which is where SW always tends to struggle ... which is why making a three-movie saga about exactly that turned out to be kind of a mistake.

 Compel wrote:
I think my viewpoint is pretty much completely different to the thread so far.

And I think that's because my opinion is very much informed by Frank Herbert's Dune.

My argument is simply this. Nothing. Nothing went wrong, not a single thing, right up until Vader made his choice. When Palpatine says, "everything is proceeding as I have foreseen" he's not grandstanding, he is being completely 100% factual.

To explain, I'll go back to Dune. Dune is a really complex, multilayered novel and part of it is plans-within-plans-within-plans.

Why do the Harkonnen's want Arrakis?
On the surface, it's a simple revenge story, hatred of the Atreides taking it from them, their oldest enemy.
Wrong.
Digging deeper, it's the spice, money. He who controls the spice, controls the universe.
Wrong.

Way, way deep inside, under all the layers. The reason the Harkonne, the Atreides want Arrakis... It's the Fremen. Nothing to do with the spice at all, the spice is a vulnerability, a crutch.

I seem to recall when Harkonnen realized what the Freman were he knew he was well and truly fethed because The Emperor was assuming he was building a treasonous army of unbeatable super soldiers but he wasn't really. Now he had the burden of that without the actual power. Think he just wanted the spice...

Harkonnen may have realised that he had been nobbled but his plan had always been.

Step 1) Take over Arrakis.
Step 2) Have Rabban wring as much spice as possible out of Arrakis, creating Rabban into a hated, feared, terrible enemy for the Fremen. A devil, a foe to be defeated.
Step 3) Introduce Feyd, who would appear to the Fremen as a hero. Essentially, in the Baron's plan, Feyd is effectively Paul.
Step 4) Feyd kills Rabban
Step 5) Harkonnens conquer the galaxy.


And the Bene Gesserit's plan was along the same lines, except it included Jessica having a daughter, instead of Paul, who would then marry Feyd.

Did it really go wrong for the emperor though?

he ran the galaxy for near 40 years. If vader didn't get him his time was almost up anyways.

Sells out his home planet to get a sympathy vote to become chancellor.

Starts a war to thin the jedi's numbers. They really needed the line in the book adaptation in the ep 3, the perfect jedi trap. I can't think of the exact quote but the gist was, send them to far away planets to die in the war. Keep them looking outward instead of whats in front of them.

he ends the jedi order, a thousand generations of jedi protecting the galaxy, done. major victory for the emperor and his crowning achievement.

Rules for 30 years as the ruler of the galaxy after that.

Dying at the hands of his apprentice is really just the sith way. One to wield the power and one to crave it. Then when the apprentice feels he's learned everything the master can teach, he kills his master. Keeping his apprentice as a trained dog for 30 years or so is really another achievement for him.

the only thing he really did wrong was his biggest gamble, probably due to his time drawing short. let the rebellion know of the deathstars 2 location, let them land so the fleet is sure to arrive, then spring his final trap, winner take all. It's odd he didn't wait til it was complete and didn't leave huge tunnels to the core that freighters could fly into.

 Manchu wrote:
But there is also a battle where teddy bears mop the floor with the Emperor's "best troops." So let's just imagine that we leave in the great scenes and take out the teddy bears.

As much as I enjoy the Ewoks (because I don't tend to take Star Wars particularly seriously, so stormtroopers being beaten by teddy bears works for me) I can't help but wonder how much more awesome RotJ could have been if they had gone with the original plan of the fuzzies being Wookies instead of succumbing to the lure of the easy marketing dollar.

Definitely think the Wookies would have been cooler.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Did it really go wrong for the emperor though?

he ran the galaxy for near 40 years. If vader didn't get him his time was almost up anyways.

Sells out his home planet to get a sympathy vote to become chancellor.

Starts a war to thin the jedi's numbers. They really needed the line in the book adaptation in the ep 3, the perfect jedi trap. I can't think of the exact quote but the gist was, send them to far away planets to die in the war. Keep them looking outward instead of whats in front of them.

he ends the jedi order, a thousand generations of jedi protecting the galaxy, done. major victory for the emperor and his crowning achievement.

Rules for 30 years as the ruler of the galaxy after that.

Dying at the hands of his apprentice is really just the sith way. One to wield the power and one to crave it. Then when the apprentice feels he's learned everything the master can teach, he kills his master. Keeping his apprentice as a trained dog for 30 years or so is really another achievement for him.

the only thing he really did wrong was his biggest gamble, probably due to his time drawing short. let the rebellion know of the deathstars 2 location, let them land so the fleet is sure to arrive, then spring his final trap, winner take all. It's odd he didn't wait til it was complete and didn't leave huge tunnels to the core that freighters could fly into.

But did Vader kill Palpatine as a Sith, or as a Jedi?

Seeing as he did so defending the comparative innocent, and not to take Palpatine's place, I'd wager the latter.

 insaniak wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
But there is also a battle where teddy bears mop the floor with the Emperor's "best troops." So let's just imagine that we leave in the great scenes and take out the teddy bears.

As much as I enjoy the Ewoks (because I don't tend to take Star Wars particularly seriously, so stormtroopers being beaten by teddy bears works for me) I can't help but wonder how much more awesome RotJ could have been if they had gone with the original plan of the fuzzies being Wookies instead of succumbing to the lure of the easy marketing dollar.

I thought it was budget reasons, not a marketing decision.

Not enough tall people I thought

Budget wasn't an issue. Lucas personally financed it, and it had twice the budget of ESB.

The official Lucas retcon is that Wookies had been shown to be technically proficient and he wanted a primitive race.

The scuttlebutt at the time was that the choice to go with warrior teddy bears rather than something more intimidating was done entirely fire the toy sales.

Ya know what's disturbing about the Ewoks? They were gonna eat Han, Luke & Chewie. Like straight up roast them and pick the meat off their bones.
Kinda makes you see the celebration at the end in a new light. They didn't care about this horrible space empire being defeated. They didn't even know about life on other planets.
They were celebrating because of all the new meat they just acquired.

I've seen debated on what would have happened to the Ewoks after RotJ from the DS fallout*, but what is more disturbing is what happened to the Imperial ground troops.
Teddy bears with a taste for human flesh.


*I believe the current canon is that the Rebels erected fields to prevent the fallout from harming Endor.