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Growing here, despite the community being mostly historical focused. It's got nothing on Bolt Action or Flames though, and even our sprouting Team Yankee community may overtake in the future.

Still, I was surprised that it still has the popularity, amidst so many other game systems with more concise and fair rulesets; I've been told that it's down to the community being good enough to each other to make sure that everyone has a good time playing it.

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

stroller wrote:
Healthy here.

I think in the UK it is healthier than everywhere else.
40k is still alive and kicking here. But the tournament scene is not as strong as it has been about 6 years ago.

Same here.

Tons of casual, and tons of competitive games, but the only tournament I've ever heard about here in Colorado is a kill team league that everyone is doing for fun.

Tournaments here have only half of the places filled.
Each tourney has special rules (number of formations to be included and whatnot) and dont follow the general brb.

Back in 2001-2006 at least in my local club it was about 70% 40K, 20% WH Fantasy and 10% LOTR or a non-Games Workshop system such as Starship Troopers. Today 40K is still taking that 70% majority but the other 30% is taken up by other systems such as Batman, Magic, Bolt Action and Warmachine. The wargaming market is certainly more diverse than when I first started but I wouldn't say that 40K is dying by any means.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Growing here, despite the community being mostly historical focused. It's got nothing on Bolt Action or Flames though, and even our sprouting Team Yankee community may overtake in the future.

Still, I was surprised that it still has the popularity, amidst so many other game systems with more concise and fair rulesets; I've been told that it's down to the community being good enough to each other to make sure that everyone has a good time playing it.

I think 40K is surviving and thriving for 3 reasons;

It's often how people are introduced to tabletop wargaming, and even if you think that a rival system like Bolt Action is technically good it can still take that extra financial and community-based push for someone to start collecting a new system.

40K: It's awesome, there's something for everyone. You're not constricted to a WW2 or Batman theme.

The rise in Games Workshop licenced PC games and the internet fandom has made the units and battles much more identifiable. If you play Company of Heroes you might not immediately gravitate to playing Bolt Action, and if you like Batman movies you might not necessarily go into the Batman tabletop game, but if you play Space Marine or Dawn of War then collecting 40K on tabletop feels like you're getting closer to the source material.

 SDFarsight wrote:
I think 40K is surviving and thriving for 3 reasons;

It's often how people are introduced to tabletop wargaming, and even if you think that a rival system like Bolt Action is technically good it can still take that extra financial and community-based push for someone to start collecting a new system.

Often, but not always; the majority of people at my LGS were introduced to TT wargaming at least 20 years ago, usually with 40k. Most of those players have moved on though. Plus, they're grown adults with full incomes - financing the hobby is not an issue for them at all, to the point where they will buy average painted armies for ridiculous amounts of money.

40K: It's awesome, there's something for everyone. You're not constricted to just WW2 or Batman themes.

That's a very subjective viewpoint; what if someone doesn't like sci fi, or really loves historical events?

The rise in Games Workshop licenced PC games and the internet fandom has made the units and battles much more identifyable. Sure any DC fan will recognise models in Batman, but 40K is the gamer's game.

Just because people play the 40k video games does not necessarily mean that they will buy into the TT version, especially when gamers who have not yet been exposed to TT wargaming realise the immense cost of collecting, painting and playing an army compared to buying a new video game.


The more probable reasons for 40k surviving and thriving are:

- It's still the most well known TT game out there, and well backed, meaning that people will feel safer investing since their communities show no signs of evaporating.

- Citadel model quality is among some of the best you can find - while other companies are closing the gap, none can really match the rate and quality that GW produces new models, that will all encourage purchases from both collectors and gamers.

- It's accessible to both experienced and inexperienced players thanks to the simplicity of the basic ruleset. At least when you start that is - then it begins to pile on all the pointless complications.

People still probably play and enjoy the game because:

- They're well invested into the 40k universe.

- They haven't played or been exposed to other game systems that offer more concise rulesets.

- They are part of a community that is playing more for fun than for any competition.

40k officially died by me when the 7th ed Ork Codex came out, because over half the players had an Ork army and they found it insulting. Now my group of friends still have their armies and we play, but at the FLGS 40k is basically gone.

I attend 3 clubs. One has a large 40k community, one is vehemently anti-GW and has zero 40k, and the other has a very small [maybe two or three] active 40k players. Just so many better rulesets out there that are so much easier to get into. It's very club-specific here in the UK, but I've definitely seen 40k decline rapidly in the time I've been active at clubs [maybe 10 years?]

 General Annoyance wrote:

 SDFarsight wrote:
I think 40K is surviving and thriving for 3 reasons;

It's often how people are introduced to tabletop wargaming, and even if you think that a rival system like Bolt Action is technically good it can still take that extra financial and community-based push for someone to start collecting a new system.

Often, but not always; the majority of people at my LGS were introduced to TT wargaming at least 20 years ago, usually with 40k. Most of those players have moved on though. Plus, they're grown adults with full incomes - financing the hobby is not an issue for them at all, to the point where they will buy average painted armies for ridiculous amounts of money.

Which is why I mentioned the community aspect as well There's no point buying Bolt Action if only one guy in the corner plays it. Of course having a higher income would make that transition easier, but some people are stuck in their ways. My LGS has introduction days which help to break the ice with new systems.

40K: It's awesome, there's something for everyone. You're not constricted to just WW2 or Batman themes.

That's a very subjective viewpoint; what if someone doesn't like sci fi, or really loves historical events?

You're talking about a game which has roughly the same shooting/close-combat ratio as the Napoleonic era, some of the human uniforms, tanks etc are lifted from the World Wars and there are about 2 units in the entire game which are strictly 'robots'. You don't have to be a normal sci-fi fan to be into 40K. And if you really really want to play with a WW2 theme then you can always play Bolt Action, I never said that 40K is an inescapable cage.

The rise in Games Workshop licenced PC games and the internet fandom has made the units and battles much more identifyable. Sure any DC fan will recognise models in Batman, but 40K is the gamer's game.

Just because people play the 40k video games does not necessarily mean that they will buy into the TT version, especially when gamers who have not yet been exposed to TT wargaming realise the immense cost of collecting, painting and playing an army compared to buying a new video game.

Again you're dealing with absolutes. I never said that they 100% must go into TT gaming; my point was that unlike Company of Heroes or Arkham Asylum, games like Dawn of War have their roots from TT gaming so there's naturaly more of a draw towards it.

40k itself is growing-ish. Most of them are newer players who have never played, so are enjoying themselves. There is a slo-gro league that just started and has around 20 players and most armies are represented. Everyone is active in all aspects of the hobby from building, painting, and playing.

There is a clear divide though between that group and those that play ITC. The ITC guys aren't a very welcoming group here, especially if you disagree with them. A know a few players that have attended a few events and have dropped back into a local group because of it. Occasionally one or two will wander in to the store where all these new players are. They don't hang around too long because they simply aren't having fun, aren't fun to play against, or are there just for winning. Those that have gone to the ITC group and stay there, disappear, and haven't been heard from again.

It's difficult to find a non-ITC tournament in my area. When one does pop up, a few ITC fanboys will show up and comment/complain about the format, the way it's run, or the results. I bowed out after seeing this, attending an ITC event when specifically asked to by one of the few players I respect. Usually because he is running the event and I go and show my support for him.

 SDFarsight wrote:
Which is why I mentioned the community aspect as well There's no point buying Bolt Action if only one guy in the corner plays it. Of course having a higher income would make that transition easier, but some people are stuck in their ways. My LGS has introduction days which help to break the ice with new systems.

Which I mentioned in my more probable points; a system can be superior but not invested into because the community isn't there for it. The problem regarding 40k is that a lot of players are very young, which typically means that they will not be able to transfer systems without selling their army off (at a fraction of the cost most likely) or constantly tugging at mummy's sleeve for money for a new system.

You're talking about a game which has roughly the same shooting/close-combat ratio as the Napoleonic era, some of the human uniforms, tanks etc are lifted from the World Wars and there are about 2 units in the entire game which are strictly 'robots'. You don't have to be a normal sci-fi fan to be into 40K. And if you really really want to play with a WW2 theme then you can always play Bolt Action, I never said that 40K is an inescapable cage.

You did say that there is something for everyone though; I sincerely doubt that. It's certainly "diverse", and thus more likely to be more appealing to a wide variety of people, but I think it would be even more popular if it truly was so appealing to every TT wargamer/entry gamer.

Even with the themes present in 40k, it's hardly the same as playing a historical wargame, and it certainly isn't mechanically.

Again you're dealing with absolutes. I never said that they 100% must go into TT gaming; my point was that unlike Company of Heroes or Arkham Asylum, games like Dawn of War have their roots from TT gaming so there's naturaly more of a draw towards it.

The only thing 40k games share with the TT version is the universe - there isn't anything there that makes DOW similar to TT 40k. The natural draw to collecting 40k would more likely come from the fact that the player has a lot of interest in strategy games.

I'm not even sure if a lot of people who play 40k games actually know that there is a tabletop version. I know that people I know who play them don't.

It's hard to say for my areas. For the last 12 or 15 years my city had no FLGS so I had to make all my purchases 1/2 to 1 hour away. When I did find games in 5th edition it was small but when 6th came out it died.

About a year or year and a half ago, a Gaming Café opened up it didn't sell GW product. Now it sells very little, but he can order anything on the GW site. With that I am seeing a steady of people playing 40K right now. Age of Sigmar has finally started as well. Maybe It seems 40K is doing good because people are finally able to get pick up games now. How long this lasts, not sure.

So I guess with 8th edition will see if 40K stays the same, grows, or gets killed like 6th edition happened.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 SDFarsight wrote:
Which is why I mentioned the community aspect as well There's no point buying Bolt Action if only one guy in the corner plays it. Of course having a higher income would make that transition easier, but some people are stuck in their ways. My LGS has introduction days which help to break the ice with new systems.

Which I mentioned in my more probable points; a system can be superior but not invested into because the community isn't there for it. The problem regarding 40k is that a lot of players are very young, which typically means that they will not be able to transfer systems without selling their army off (at a fraction of the cost most likely) or constantly tugging at mummy's sleeve for money for a new system.

At least in terms of keeping customers, that's a good thing for 40K as they're not moving to other systems. And when they're older if they have a saleried job and/or low overheads for a good amount of expendible income then like I said, the community can still be a barrier or a supporter depending on what your LGS is like.

You're talking about a game which has roughly the same shooting/close-combat ratio as the Napoleonic era, some of the human uniforms, tanks etc are lifted from the World Wars and there are about 2 units in the entire game which are strictly 'robots'. You don't have to be a normal sci-fi fan to be into 40K. And if you really really want to play with a WW2 theme then you can always play Bolt Action, I never said that 40K is an inescapable cage.

You did say that there is something for everyone though; I sincerely doubt that. It's certainly "diverse", and thus more likely to be more appealing to a wide variety of people, but I think it would be even more popular if it truly was so appealing to every TT wargamer/entry gamer.

Even with the themes present in 40k, it's hardly the same as playing a historical wargame, and it certainly isn't mechanically.

Of course it doesn't obsolete historical wargaming; infact one of the things which I dislike about AoS is that it's trying to shoehorn Space Marines into everything rather than just letting it be Tolkieneque fantasy. My point is that 40K has alot of scope for things- with the wide variety of different strategy and modeling styles, and vastly more if you include homebrew codexes. Whereas what is a homebrew codex for Bolt Action? Perhaps a French Resistance rulebook? A Spanish Civil War expansion?

Again you're dealing with absolutes. I never said that they 100% must go into TT gaming; my point was that unlike Company of Heroes or Arkham Asylum, games like Dawn of War have their roots from TT gaming so there's naturaly more of a draw towards it.

The only thing 40k games share with the TT version is the universe - there isn't anything there that makes DOW similar to TT 40k. The natural draw to collecting 40k would more likely come from the fact that the player has a lot of interest in strategy games.

I'm not even sure if a lot of people who play 40k games actually know that there is a tabletop version. I know that people I know who play them don't.

If TT had no influence on DoW then the Necron Lord will still be in his pre-Egyptian form, the Ork Trukks would still look Gorkamorka-ish and Imperial Knights wouldn't be there at all. But that's developer-level changes; as for community changes then the people who create or follow mods have a major source to get their inspiration from- the Warhammer 40K univerise which is inevitably linked to the TT game. There is the fact that the gameplay meta isn't anything like TT, but that's pretty obvious isn't it?

We have no FLGS in my area and the GW brick and mortar has only one table which is forever taken up.
When I first started the hobby 10+ years ago, our local club was about 95% 40k and the remaining being fantasy and lotr, all spread out over 10-12 tables. Now, you've got to beg or bribe for a 40k game because everyone in the club is I to bolt action or 30k or Bushido or a number of other game systems.

Growing here, specifically in one big spike: My LGS was pretty stable, then a group of eight or nine friends all found it and started coming regularly, giving a nice big increase to our size.

I personally don't play it, but my local GW closed. So I think that's a sign that 40k may be dead in the south bay of Los Angeles. I find the rules to be convoluted, too many books needed. Too much work to play this game, AoS, X wing and BB etc are normal games. But 40k is like the next level.

Growing in NSWs central coast. Surprising amount of people up in the Hunter as well.

Mostly shrinking. All the 40k players are still here, but saturdays are no longer dominated by 40k. When I started playing 4-5 years ago, we did pickup 40k games every saturday, tournaments once a month and apoc games every few months.

We still play 40k occasionally but now there's a larger variety of games, namely xwing, bolt action, infinity, warmachine, etc. Haven't done a 40k tournament or apoc game in a couple years. No new 40k player in quite a while. Most new players are starting other stuff.

I think many, like me, are kind of holding on to see what the next edition brings. I see lots of people that have drifted to other games but still keep an eye on what's going on with 40k.

It is pretty dead here aos seen to its death. A lot of us played since we where kids, but when they blew up whfb everyone ditched minatures in general. A lot like myself find it harder and harder to spend money on something that will be usless in a few months or maybe years. So most of us picked up different hobbies or spend more money on our kids and stuff. Dirt bikes are common with my friends now tho lol.

Also it is not like you buy something nice you can just put on a shelf, it is kinda something you throw in a box and take out couple times a week...... now maybe once every couple months.

I have no idea. I don't really game with strangers in real life, only online.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Dirt bikes are common with my friends now tho lol.

So, i assume you're around the midlife.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
40k is swelling in my area.

My local GW owner is actually in a hard spot, because a lot of people don't show up as getting a game in is so difficult, but if the owner gets another table then more people will come, increasing the issue even more.

I'm not complaining however!

It's funny that you say that because in the south metro area war gamming in general is pretty dead. There aren't many FLGS anymore and those that are around are almost entirely CCG related or at best X-Wing.

Also, the GW in Denver has really gone down hill since the new manager took over. I don't get in there often as it is fairly far north for me but when I do get over there it is empty and about one 4 x 4 table to play on...

Back on topic, in relation to what I said above 40k seems to be dead around here. We used to have a fairly regular group that would play at our FLGS but it slowly dwindled as 7th rolled around to the point that the store stopped carrying 40k. Last time I went on a 40k night there were the same two players who were the last two players I saw showing up months ago. Now the only time I get games in is when my dad wants a game in his basement which is about once a month.

 FinkleLord wrote:
It is dying rapidly where I am. Not due to pricing or new GW rules or anything like that. It's due to my store's other player base driving the tabletop crowd out in general. Table space is limited and the 40K community is very small. We had dedicated tables, but this other player base decided to move them and ended up breaking one of our tables. Now we are down to two tables stuck in the corner of the store while every month our gaming space gets smaller.

This is exactly our problem. The store manager would rather get four to six around a table playing MtG or RPG rather than two playing 40k

 koooaei wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Dirt bikes are common with my friends now tho lol.

So, i assume you're around the midlife.

mid life holy hell I hope not if I die at 56 I would be very sad indeed lol.

No. It's larger now than 2-3 years ago.

Tournaments have shrunk considerably with most TO's saying it's just too much of a PITA to keep up with everything in terms of rules/releases. They are mostly waiting on 8th to see if that brings some of the streamlining we have been told to expect.

Of the two main stores that sell GW - Sigmar died completely at the bigger store and 40k is slowly shrinking. That said, pretty much all minis games are weak at that store right now.

The second store (which is actually a GW corporate store) - 40k is going like gang-busters. The caveat being that most players are playing Kill-Team or sub-1500pt 40k, but yeah, it's growing crazy fast at that store. There are also a lot of folks who have purchased armies and are waiting on 8th to hit before jumping in. Never thought I'd live to see the day where people would prefer to play at a corporate store, but that manager is really good at promoting the game and providing a great atmosphere.

In opposition to 40k, which is alive and kicking, AoS is completely dead here. Nobody plays it and nobody intents to play it in the near future. The only board game played is BB which is rarely played (two or three games per week).

I tend to move around a bit, so what I have noticed is that areas without a huge military presence the game is dying. In places where the military has a large base nearby the game is steady, possibly growing a bit. I read an article not to long ago that said something like 40-50% of sales in the US are to military members. Having served I can believe this easily. In my civilian life I don't have a single friend (prior to joining the hobby) who played 40k. in the military I have dozens of friends who play.

I wouldn't say it was dying in my area so much as it's just sort of stalling. Between AoS gaining rapid popularity since the GHB and rumors of 8th, no one really wants to invest in 40k right now. We still play games of 40k every now and then, but for the most part, it's been AoS for the last six months.

Every time I go into the GW store it's packed.

All the tables are in use, and usually there's a regular player teaching a newbie.

I see people of all ages buying stuff. pre-teens with Dad, teenagers, 20s, and people like me, and older.

In addition to people buying the stuff, there's also a dedicated assembly/painting station which is also in use.

Honestly if I lived closer I'd probably hang out there.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
40k is swelling in my area.

My local GW owner is actually in a hard spot, because a lot of people don't show up as getting a game in is so difficult, but if the owner gets another table then more people will come, increasing the issue even more.

I'm not complaining however!

It's funny that you say that because in the south metro area war gamming in general is pretty dead. There aren't many FLGS anymore and those that are around are almost entirely CCG related or at best X-Wing.

Also, the GW in Denver has really gone down hill since the new manager took over. I don't get in there often as it is fairly far north for me but when I do get over there it is empty and about one 4 x 4 table to play on...

Back on topic, in relation to what I said above 40k seems to be dead around here. We used to have a fairly regular group that would play at our FLGS but it slowly dwindled as 7th rolled around to the point that the store stopped carrying 40k. Last time I went on a 40k night there were the same two players who were the last two players I saw showing up months ago. Now the only time I get games in is when my dad wants a game in his basement which is about once a month.

QFT.

I've noticed that too, but I live in Boulder so it hasn't directly affected me.

The Denver GW is pretty terrible, I must agree.

It's a shame that its dying in your are though, as there are tons of great stores north from denver, all the way to boulder, and one or two in LongMont if I remember correctly.