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And the guard are also less resilient and suck in hth to boot. Marines are simply underpriced compared to non-marines. The only saving grace the IG has is that a take-all-comers marine army is going to be geared towards killing 15-pt MEqs, not 6-pt GEqs - so your army is optimized to kill his but his isn't optimized to kill yours. Of course things like assault cannons screw this up, but I guess that's their thing.

1) one point price drop across the board for IG infantry

Sure I would go for that.

2)Do away with the advisors rule.  Allow priests and commissars to be added where ever they are needed as an upgrade to a squad.  (this is a great fix for Ogryn, imagine attaching a hidden commissar with powerfist and a priest with an evisorator to a squad of 5 Ogryn)

This is a great idea.  STick the commissar in with 50 conscripts and let him swing away, or with some ogryn.  If they fix ogryn

3)Rough Riders, loose the lances but gain the ability to take three special weapons.  Change the movement rate to 6 inches + d6.  Remove fleet rule.  (These guys are scouts, not medeivel knights)

I dont think so.  the lances are what make them great.  3 weapons just means that the will miss a lot then die.  Esp with BS3.

4)Hellhound, av 13 front, but gets back the glances always pen rule

This is pointless.  Basically you are saying that it gets penned on a 13.  Is that not what it already is.  So what is the point of this change.

5)Russ, Reinforced armor, any hits to the front armor do not gain any bonus to strength.  In addition ap1 weapons do not pen on a glance the front of a russ.  Lance weapons work as normal.  Any hits to the sides or rear are resolved as normal. 

As much as I would love this, I think it takes away from the realism that IG tanks have.  Good idea though.

6)Sentinel, 5 point price drop

Personally I would rather them get a H2H wpn option LIKE EVERY OTHER WALKER IN THE GAME.  They suck and as of now are probably the crappiest walker in the game, low strength, low armor, and crappy BS.  Even the killer kans are better.

7)Hardened fighters, adds +1 to init

Hmm I like this, they get to keep the +1 WS as well?  I can see it now though. hardened fighters +1 then close order +1 = guard are now init 5.  heh heh, that would be cool.  They might actually win a combat.

8)Carapace is +2 pts per model

Isn't this what it already works out to?

9)Mortars are heavy 2

I might take mortars finally if they do this.  As of now I dont really like them too much.

10)Grenade launchers are assault 2

This is cool.  So youll actually hit statistically once per turn.  then watch them make thier save cause everyone plays marines.

11)Plasma gets a 2 point price rise

Bad Idea, not only do we usually miss, but usually die when we do.  Makes no sense.

12)Drop Troops cost 5 pts per unit.

Gay, I like it the way it is cause it is free.

I have about 10 pages of general and specific army changes that I think the game should undergo.  I will post them in here this weekend.

I personally would like to see a set of sweeping changes to each of the advisors.

The Commissar isn't much cop. As HMBC has pointed out, he's far too expensive for a multiwound T3 character. 15-20points at best And I think his signature move doesn't provide any benefit for squads outside of the CO unit. I'd like to see the current "Summary Execution" rule stripped out, and replaced with something that affects other units. I dunno.. something like....

Summary Execution: An IG infantry unit (as defined by the Doctrine rules) within 12" of a Commissar may, when required to make a leadership test, sacrifice a model from that unit and ignore any one modifer to the leadership test or leadership value of the unit (e.g. applying a positive or negative modifer, or being required to roll less or more dice) of the IG players choice that applies to that leadership test.

Basically, this is Summary Execution+. It's still got the same look and feel of a Commissar power, but it affects more units, and has more leeway in dealing with the various types of modifer that can be applied to a leadership test (e.g. leadership caps, more dice, positive/negative modifers to the dice roll or the leadership value).

The Psyker I'd like to see keep the same crappy stats, with the exception of having a leadership of 7(9). The 9 should be for making psychic tests or making leadership tests as the result of enemy psychic powers/wargear. That way, there's a small chance it'll get through the barrage of anti-psyker powers ad wargear that's floating around out there, and it specialises him toward psyking. I'd also like to see the Psyker be able to buy his power rather than roll for it, for a bargain basement price - say 5-8 points on top of the basic cost, which I would like dropped by 2 points to compensate for buying a power. The powers could use some changes too.

Curse of the Machine Spirits is pretty pointless, as it presupposes one would willingly charge into combat with a wimpy psyker. I'd like that power changed to a ranged, LOS power, with the following effect: "Vehicle does not benefit from any vehicle upgrades bought for it this turn". That sounds much more like what a Curse of the Machine Spirit would be like, isn't too powerful (as it doesn't affect the vehcile itself - just the things bought for it), and risks the unit as the psyker must be within LOS.

Psychic Lash is in the same boat. No sane IG General will ever charge an enemy unit. This needs to be a ranged, LOS power as well, and geared towards the mind control it's supposed to be. "Affected unit counts as infantry for purposes of movement and charging on enemy players next turn".

Finally, Lightning Arc. If I'm going to have a multi-shot lasgun, then I want 6 shots, no need to LOS, and auto hits after passing that psychic test. Arr.

The Priest. What to do about the Priest.   Hand to hand is right out. That's not a Guard thing, and never will be. The next obvious step would be to take some kind of morale bonus... but that's getting pretty stale. I mean, how many ways can one fix leadership problems? You've got the CO, Standard bearer, Commissar, Psyker with Telepathic Order.... four is pushing it, five is taking the michael. I must confess, I'm stuck as to what to do with the Priest. The only thing I can think of is cranking up the hand-to-hand under a priest well beyond its current incarnation.

 No sane IG General will ever charge an enemy unit.

Personally I often charge into combat.  I can usually win it as well.  However this had back fired horribly.  More times than not the WS5 commissar and  general (Hard FTRS) can usually take out a daemon prince in a turn.  Especially since I charge with my platoon HQ another 2 powerfists. 

I have heard of some people giving the psyker the honorifica Imperialis which makes him leadership 9 and then give him hard fighters and a force wpn.  Really good at taking out leaders.  Now he has 5 WS5 INIT 5 (Close order, HF) attacks that can kill multiple wound models.  Yes hes only STR3 but he only has to wound once on an enemy character.

 

Also in reguards to the IG codex.  I agree VERY strongly that officers should not be characters.  Makes no sense that they cant leave the squad.  I dont know what the point of that rule is.  It only makes them weaker.

Also lascannons are extremely over priced especially since guard are only BS3, it comes out to about 18. 3 points per model. 

 And in addition who ever designed the hvy weapon models is a moron.  Why would you stick two models on one giant base.  Just cause it looks cool?!  Stupid.  I dont know why they did that.  It has caused me head ache after headache.  People claiming partials on models that if mounted on normal bases would not be partials.  That is why I am working on puting all my weapon teams on small bases. 

Also, some would argue that one must use the base that comes with the model.  Then why does steel legion have small base bases for thier missle launcher and cadians use large ones?  Makes no sense.  I have even had people try to tell me the base can be insta killed.  Or that I MUST remove one team at a time instead of the assitant gunners first.  I am gonna mount the guards men on small bases then the guns on calvary bases.  Counting the calvary base as being in the same location as the gunner.  I want to wait and see who will be the first to target the calvary base/gun and/or claim a partial on it. 

If worse comes to worse Ill glue the lascannons to the side of thier head.  THen maybe nobody will give me crap about it.

Another few thoughts:

I believe Advisors, as they stand currently, do NOT count as ICs as do Officers. However, eliminating the requirement that they be taken first for all command squads before joining othe units should be waived. They should also be allowed to join non-Guard Infantry units - i.e. why wouldn't a Commissar be right at home with a few of his old jackbooted chums from the Scholae Progenium? It'd still be 60/65 points for a hidden fist compared to 45 for MEQs, so there would remain a small premium regardless of where they went.

Also, what about allowing Advisors to get a horsey for free? It could be kind of cool to have the option of fielding Rough Riders with Hatred, for instance...

Enginseers - why have them take up a whole Elites slot? I'd just have them count as Advisors, with Servitors then counting as a potential four extra members of the squad. Though combined with the above idea, this could make for a potentially amusing RR squad...nine lancers, veteran sergeant, commissar with fist, priest with eviscerator, sanctioned psyker, enginseer and four horsie servitors for an 18 strong Beasts unit with a potential seven power fists...but if you're going to spend three or four doctrines then why not be able to take something like this?

Get rid of 0-1 for Ratlings - a WHOLE DOCTRINE POINT for ONE BALANCED UNIT is not worth it, IMHO.

Heavy Weapons Squads should have their points cost reduced now that there is no screening. 65 points for a mortar squad assuming mortars stay S4. Heavy weapons at the same cost as infantry units.

It would also be nice to remove the whole "Guard Infantry" thing for just plain old "any Imperial Guard model" or "any non-Conscript model." Why shouldn't Rough Riders be able to hunt Orks? Why wouldn't there be a planet full of REALLY mean (WS5) Ogryns? Or Stormtroopers not have access to the latest Chameleoline sniper skrims?

Also - and this may be the Tyranid player in me speaking - but it kind of seems like the front-of-the-book/back-of-the-book list division is sort of silly. Why not just streamline all the doctrines into the main list?

I was looking at the post about how an IG lascannon is more than a space M one.  You are correct.  Even working out the math it does not make sense.  By study I am an engineer so I like to look at things mathematically.

Check this.  What would you say MATHEMATICALLY is the most effective Hvy weapon in the IG inventory at killing Termies.  You would think Lascannons correct.  Not True.  Heavy Bolters are more Points Effective at killing termies.  I have run the numbers several times.  It is because of thier invoulnerable save and the overpriced lascannon.  In EVERY POSSIBLE scenario lascannons only do better against Tyranid MC i.e .(T6).  That is because they do not get an IV save.  Lascannons are anit tank weapons and should be used as such.  So who ever the designers are need to take a class in statistics cause they do not know what they are doing.  ALso .  The autocannon is your sure fire way of knowing your oponned does not know what he is doing.  It is the least cost effective weapon in the IG army.  It is because of the BS3.  The only weapon more efffective vs. infantry than a heavy bolter is in the case of a krak missle vs. a SM with no IV save.  Other than that if your opponed is firing lascannons at termies or other infantry when they have other target either :

1. They are a noob

or 2. they suck at math.

 

Run it yourself if you do not belive me.  How do you find points effectivness?  I was about to post it, but figure it out for yourself.  Ill tell you if your numbers are wrong.

 

@Scipio, Having re-read my earlier post, my example included Lascannons on the JOs as well, which means that an equal number of lascannon shots were hitting. (8 Las/4 hits, 6 Las/4Hits). Furthermore, I do believe that a gets hot plasma gun has an equal chance of klling a Space Marine as it does a guard, as both are wounded on a 2+ and cannot make a save, That said, I do agree that the Las is too costly for the Guard, as the higher cost of fielding Lascannon Guard makes (at 1500 anyway) as well as including other necessary elements means far fewer Lascannon than I'm happy with.

@smart_alex. As the Lascannon is primarily intended as an anti-tank weapon, saying the gun is mathmatically inefficent for killing infantry is exactly what the designers want you to think. They want you to buy Heavy Bolters and Autocannon for killing infantry and keep the lascannon for vehicles and  opportunity shots on characters and the like. If the Lascannon were a mathmatically efficent infantry killer, I'd spam it like crazy because I face MEQs all the time and Las/Plas would be the unbeatable combo. 25pts is the price they want you to pay for "purity of purpose" i.e. vehicle killer unit.  For me, 25pts is too steep for "purity of purpose", and is it properly efficent against vehicles anyway?

On another issue, Stormtroopers. There's been a lot of ill-feeling about Stormtroopers on Dakkadakka, and the ill-feeling seems to center around "Hardened Vets are a better choice than Stormtroopers". This, I believe, is because both units are cast in the same role.

Consider the Stormtrooper. He is better armed (sort of), better armoured, has a better BS, better LD... the Stormtrooper's role is "Imperial Guard+". Anything a Guard unit can do, Stormtroopers can do it better. The thing is, H-Vets are also cast in the same role. Their small arms might no be better, and they might not have a better save, but they make up for it by being able to carry more special weapons, being cheaper, and getting infiltrate out of the box. As before, anything a Guard Unit can do, H-Vets can do it better. So, when it comes down to it, the unit considered the better buy will win out, as the other unit doesn't have anything else it can offer. Stormtroopers do need improvement, then. But they need direction, a direction that moves away from H-Vets and offers things that H-Vets can't.

One thing that could be done is to expand the available equipment, and pemit various USR or Doctrines to be bought for either a discount, or a flat cost. For example, Cameoline might be available for the basic cost, or at half ost is bought as a Doctrin choice.

As far as expansion on equipment goes, how about borrowing from earlier eras of W40k? Why not revive things like the Supression Shield (say that the SS counts as a one-handed weapon, but improves the saving throw of the model by one). By combining that with a re-jigged hellpistol (Str 4, as has been already suggested on "fix a useless weapon" ) you've got a unit that could weather lots of fire and give back one hell of a return.

In fact, thinking about it, the two could be combined into tailored "packages". Some examples:

Covert Ops Package. 10pts for the unit. Whole unit gets Cameloline, and the Light Infantry Doctrine without having to pick either as Doctrine Choice.

Shock Assault Package. 12pts for the unit. Whole unit's basic weapons are replaced with a Suppression Shield and Hellpistol. Unit also gets Deep Strike.

Commando Package. 12 pts for the unit. Unit gets Tank Hunters USR, Melta Bombs and Infiltrate. Special Weapons members can each be equipped with 1 Demo Charge instead of usual special weapons at +5pts per model.

@Max
As for me personally I like the HV better. Just because I feel they can fulfill more roles than the storm troopers.

Not only are they effective at shooting but they benefit from doctrines and you can also make them assault based. Give them HF, and carapace along with a PF for the vet sgt. Then a few shotguns for them to shoot down the enemy before charging into them. Also they could get off 6 plasma gun shots at BS4 and 15 other shots at STR 3. I like using them this way as well. Mostly i drop them in and give them 3 meltas and use them as suicide antitank squads.

Also, although I like the storm trooper models better the HV that forge world makes are nice too.

Couple of points max....

1)Plasma guns auto wound the firer on a roll of a 1 (1 or 2 when rapid firing) The model then gets to make a save as normal. This makes them much more dangers for the IG as they have a 5+ as opposed to the 3+ of a space marine.

2)Storm trooper have the same BS as the vet squad. The differences between the two is that
a)Storm troopers gun has same strength but a better ap value
b)Storm troopers have a better save
c)Storm troopers cost more
d)Storm troopers cannot take heavy weapons (even the heavy flamer, seems made for them)
e)Storm troopers can only take 2 special weapons
f)Storm troopers do not get infiltrate and deep strike for free

What it really boils down to is that a SOB costs one point more and for that one point you get a 3+ save, a bolter, and acts of faith....

Although I do like your idea of an assault package stormie squad, but only with str 4 hell pistols, and a rule that says they get str 4 in close combat as they are fighting with their pistols or something along that line.

I too would like to see the advisors rule reworked.

I'd like to be able to place any advisor with any sqd I want. RR Commies seem fun to me, as well as a potential way to make them effective after their 1st charge. Detonate the lances/ PF or PW Commie and PW RR SGT. A FW Psyker on horsie might be nice too.

Hmm...maybe just have the Suppression Shield count as a Storm Shield, count Shock Baton as heavy close combat weapon or something similar...

Another - perhaps heretical - thought on stormtroopers: no more helguns, boltguns instead. Korpsman had an idea for auxiliary grenade launchers that I thought might make good standard equipment for stormtroopers to help make up for their higher cost and lack of a third special weapon slot. Overall, IG elites besides Veterans need to be improved. I don't think Stormies should be a better deal than SOBs, but they should be at least as good a deal as hardened veterans. Another few ideas I har for them: option of upgrading to sniper rifles - especially if ratlings are left at 0-1 - say three each or the squad gets one for free for each special weapon slot they don't use. Rip off an old WarZone rule that applied to sword and pistol berzerkers who could take a machine gun - say if you have two squads of normal stormies you're allowed a Storm Trooper heavy weapons squad at 111 points with mandatory infiltrate and either multi-lasers +0, plasma cannons +20 or multi-meltas +10.

Why not an AP4 Hellgun?

Because its better than a marine bolter. You missed the 11th Commandment "thine Guard shalt not have better toys than thine Divine Marines"

If the hellgun was ap4 than glory boys vs firewarrors would get interesting.

10 greniders kill 3.333 firewarrors at range
10 firewarrors kill 2 storm troopers at range.

However the firewarriors are probably going to be shooting first unless the stormies are deep striking or infiltrating.

@foil Oh gawd, what other rules have I got wrong? My mates are going to be not pleased. Not at all.

To add to the heretical thoughts running around here, does anyone remeber the era of IG with jump packs? I remember a pic done by Paul Bonner of three IG (in the then "standard" IG uniform) jumping towards the "camera". Well, one thing that would make Stromtroopers very different would be to give them either jump or jetpacks, turn those hellguns into assault weapons an make sure they get kitted out just with assault, template or rapid fire special weapons. Yers, it does turn them into MI, but a unit that could fire on the bounce is something that would be very unique to the IG army.

Jumpacks...are you kidding. I used to run my Commissar with Jump Pack and a Vortex grenade...ahh I miss playing guard in 2nd edition. They did so many things right back then...now...eh so so.

I think, that in the next IG codex, Storm Troopers have the greatest potential for improvement from an overcosted (for what they do) unit to a fairly nasty fighting force. Some of my ideas for improvement include:

1a. upgrade their Hellguns to Str. 4 AP 6. I don't think many would mind that. If not a strength hike and a penetration drop, then perhaps (1b). an underslung grenade launcher - one shot, Str.3, AP 6, assault 1 24" range. I don't think that's too much to ask for.

2. I'd like to see Storm Troopers get Drop Troops/Infiltrate right out of the box, rather than pay a point. If H Vets can do it, why not these guys?

3. Storm Troopers deserve the option of taking a heavy weapon. In fact, I wouldn't mind even seeing the H Vets, which are supposed to be sneaking around with special weapons on kill-missions, lose their option to take a heavy. Now, I'm not asking for Lascannons or Missile Launchers, but I agree with foil about giving them the option of taking a Heavy Flamer. I think there's even potential for ST's to be given the option of taking a stripped down Mutlilaser, something like Str6, AP nil, and be a Rapid Fire 36" weapon. Not overly powerful, but it would give them some higher strength firepower to kill tougher stuff in the event they were sitting still (like on an objective). I don't think that an HB or Autocannon would be a good idea, since that would encourage people to make them a gunline unit with BS 4, double special weapons, and 4+ armor.

3. If nothing else, I think that ST's could benefit from a drop in points cost. 9 points per model, with the option of picking up melta bombs for 3 points extra per model.

I think that these three things would help them out greatly.

CK

Heh, the first time I fielded Stormies (as grenadiers in a small guard army) I informed my opponents that they were carrying HELLGUNS!!! He was wary until the first time they fired, then he laughed out loud.

S4 AP6 sounds good. Not quite a bolter, but close.

Another option would be S3 AP5 Assault 2 (maybe range 18"?). That would make sense considering that stormies get free grenades and decent armour; they could be a not-abysmal Guard CC unit if not for the rapidfire basic guns. Double-plas stormies would be a bit confused, but large units of double melta or double flamer stormies would be pretty interesting this way, with a Fist on the vet sarge. The hellpistol would be unchanged, I suppose. I'd say increase its range to 18", but I think all pistols are 12" (except the 6" inferno pistol) so it might be too much of a radical change to increase it.

I agree that they shouldn't have access to long range heavies... a Heavy Flamer, or possibly a Multimelta for tankhunting...

Think of 5x10 units of flamer/heavy flamer stormies with assault 2 hellguns, disembarking out of a Gorgon for a toast-n-charge. Heh.

Whatever is done about Stormtroopers, they need a points break. Possibly down to the level of H-Vets, as if they get better arms or better skills or whatever, they'll quickly be racheted up through the target hierarchy and at T3, they gonna die and that investment of points won't see a fair enough return.

MY OPINION:
Stormtroopers are garbage. On top of that its 40 bux for only ten of them. The ONLY reason I have a squad is because the models kick ass. Beautiful. However STR 3 sux horribly. Also only 2 special weapons and no hvy wpns sux. HV can do everything that stormtroopers can and then some. Sure the armor save is worse but most everything in the game is AP4 or better. Not to mention you can build you HV to be assauly by giving a vet sgt a powerfist and giveing everyone shotguns and some assault wpns like 3 flamers or 3 meltas.

The only time I field storm troopers is for fluff and to show off my paint job. Thats IT.

and in addition, most ELITES are supposed to seriously kick some ass as the word implies. Where are somebody said in here HELLGUN sounds intimidating. Then you hit 10 times and wound once and they make thier save....well......whats so "elite" about that. Elites should be somthing that if you take too much of people will be pissed at you. IF you take 30 Storm troopers people will just laugh. The only worthy elites in the entire IG army are HV and ratling. Too bad you can only take 1 unit of ratlings. Every other elite is garbage.

Ratlings? You're joking right?

Sure they're cheap, and...uhh..well, they're cheap. Sniper rifles are not very good unless you consistently play high toughness/poor save armies that aren't immune to pinning.

Let me know what those armies are when you find one.

(braces self)

Tyranid MEQs*, C'tan, and Greater Daemons all make great targets for Ratlings IMHO. When targetting something like that, a sniper rifle is about as good as an autocannon. The extra 12" of range is occasionally worthwhile as well - all the SM players with the "sniper rifle and heavy bolter scouts" fetish can't ALL be n00|3zors. The REALLY stupid thing about rats IMHO is that they require a whole doctrine for a single unit. I'd prefer to see them work like HVs - unrestricted 0-1 without doctrine as all regiments have cooks, logistical troopers, etc. - or up to three with doctrine. It probably wouldn't unbalance them to bring their stats up to human levels either to possibly represent units of IG-proper marksmen.

*applies only to tactical environments in which plasma guns and lascannon are common - i.e. ALMOST everywhere. In environments where the best AP floating around is 3 - and they DO exist - the Tyranid player will probably take a 2+ save, making the comparison farcical.

Another idea on stormtroops - maybe give them Fleet? ("special Scholae Exhubitos goose-step")

Ahh, the poor lil ratlings. While they do have their purpose, I just can't bring myself to use a Doctrine point and lose a Vet sqd for them.

While browsing Stuff of Legends, I came across a ratling cook and thought about adding cooks and other orderlies to Command Squads. Maybe allow them to "buff" the CHQ and PHQ they are bought for, or allow each CHQ/PHQ to purchase them as ablative wounds.

Posted By Strangelooper on 11/25/2006 1:19 PM
Ratlings? You're joking right?

Sure they're cheap, and...uhh..well, they're cheap. Sniper rifles are not very good unless you consistently play high toughness/poor save armies that aren't immune to pinning.

Let me know what those armies are when you find one.

lets see marines are high toughness (compared to the guard anyway) and not immune to pin checks...since that is about 80% of what you play I guess that all that is neccessary.  >

I can think of a lot of armies with high toughness models or models that aren't immune to pin checks.  Rats aren't bad (don't forget they get +1 cover save and won't run off the table).  Mine usually have a purpose in every game either shooting high toughness models (killed a wriath lord in the first turn last game I used them), acting as a cheap decoy squad or just denying the enemy places to infiltrate.  If you want sniper rifles its better then a Vindicare assassin by about 10 fold.

Burning a doctrine point on them usually doesn't bother me since I pretty much pick what I want and make the doctrine points fit what I have anyway.

I like yakface's approach to developing IG ideas. In his vox-caster thread, he wrote:



What do snipers do in movies? Well, when you have a sniper scene in a WWII movie, several things usually happen:

1) Someone who you had been building up sympathy with, dies.
2) Everyone freezes
3) The Sgt. or the Lt. yells, "hit the deck!" and everyone grabs cover.

The impression from movies is that snipers slow people down and they are highly accurate, as in they can pick targets. So far, snipers in the new codexs have focused on firepower. Why shouldn't the IG buck the trend, and become a selector/disruptor? That would make them more movie-like, and as importantly, provide a feature that H-Vet's can't duplicate or go one better than.

What would make snipers a good disruptor? Well, I think two rules would make sniper teams good disruptors.

1) Regardless of casualties or wounds, the unit shot at must take a pinning check
2) Units taking pinning from a sniper team have their leadership capped at a maximum of 7, and cannot benefit from any LD bonuses or pinning/LD advantages when making the check (except Fearless).

This way, most units have a 50/50 chance of passing the check, which is reasonable odds without making snipers too good (auto pin checks would mean that a unit could be frozen 5 out of 6 turns), doesn't penalise units with a lower leadership, and gives more tactical options to an IG general.

Having looked back through previous threads about snipers, Jfrazell in CoK's "make snipers rending" thread had some good ideas. He wrote:

His idea is for a two-man sniper team. I agree with that. I don't like Ratlings as a concept. I remember in the last IG Designer Notes that the Ratlings came across as happy people from the Shire. To me, they're a galaxy far, far away from the Moot they should rightfully be in, and a 2-man teams fits better with my expectations from the movies. I'd like to see 'em replaced with 2-man sniper teams, perhaps occupying 1 force-selection slot, but you can have up to 3 individual teams a-la Tau sniper teams. I also agree with the Stealthy USR, but not with the Night-fight rule USR. That's too close to Tau Sniper rules for my comfort, but measured against increased vulnerability is the ability to pack several units down.

Ratlings? You're joking right?

Sure they're cheap, and...uhh..well, they're cheap. Sniper rifles are not very good unless you consistently play high toughness/poor save armies that aren't immune to pinning.

Let me know what those armies are when you find one.

Are you serious.  Everyone and thier grandma plays chaos.  Ive taken out deamon princes on turn one because of these guys.  Not to mention killed fex after fex.  I really have not idea why anyone would think they suck.  Not to mention the can pin people.  Against tau you are more than likely gonna kill one then they LD7 wont let them fire thier STR 5 wpns.  Then you charge in and assault 'em.   Ratings are awsome.  Howelse are you gonna kill Daemon prices.  Fire 3 lascannons? LOL. he still gets a 4+ INV save.

Well Max, thats great...you took a unit that I like to field and well replaced it with a crappy unit that I wouldn't touch.  I think they tried the 2 man teams in Codex: Catachan last edition and I don't recall too many people fielding those type of sniper teams...in fact I can't think of anyone.  I suppose if you wanted two man sniper teams you could field special weapon teams currently but I don't know anyone who does that either.

When we redid the 40K rules for our group, one of the first changes we made was beefing up Sniper Rifles. Essentially all Snipers did the following:

Range 36"
Hits on BS+1
2+ Wound
AP2/On a 6 To HIt you pick the model that gets hit.
Pinning check if shot at. Pinning check at -1 if casualties are taken.
Can ignore closest target and fire at anything within LOS.

This makes Snipers very dangerous, so we removed Sniper units (ie. Rangers and Marine Scouts can't get a unit full of Sniper Rifles). Instead we made attached Sniper Teams (eg. for every Marine Scout Squad you can take 1-2 Scout Sniper Teams, consisting of two men and one rifle).

Works very well.

BYE