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Scipio.

Looking at the Codex Catachan PDF, the unit you refer to was the Catachan Master sniper, which was one guy. His benefits do mirror Jfrazzel's idea fairly closely and of course, the reason he wasn't picked in a Codex Catachan force is at the end of the day, three snipers do not a lot of killing make, and relying on units to fail pinning tests from a Master Sniper's shots wasn't practical.

Ratlings are a firepower unit, like Tau and Eldar Snipers are. They are best used, as both you and  smart_alex point out, to kill high-toughness models. Well, fair enough. As wight_widow indicates, there are more than enough high-toughness models to justify an anti-MC unit like Ratlings. However, in response to Strangelooper, you indicate they are also there for pinning, but they aren't.  Firstly, you can only have one unit of Ratlings, which means that one unit can be pinned per turn. Secondly, they don't pin that often.

Verses Space Marines without a Chapter Master or any other Morale gubbins, they have a 4 in 11 chance of pinning a unit a turn. With a Chapter Master, that goes to 2 in 11. Necrons are a 2 in 11. Orks are a 4 in 11 (ld8 from the Nob), and they have mob checks which render pinning pointless. Tau have a general LD of 8 (shas'els), Kroot are worse - LD 7. Ig are getting bonuses from their hidden JOs and COs, and Eldar are LD 8.

Now, for "crappy unit". Over 6 turns of shooting, a sniper team which causes a pinning check when shooting at a unit will cause a pinning check 5 of those turns. Pinning without having to wound or cause a casualty is a frightening concept for fast unit like bikers, which want to benefit from their turbo-boost and other special movement. It's even more frightening when being forced to test on a LD of 7 (5 in 11 chance of failing), without any bonuses - no Rites of Battle, no MoCU, no nothing. If I have three such sniper units, then the chances of locking down my opponent get bigger and bigger. What's crappy about that? The size of the team? Well, how big should a team which causes auto pinning checks on a LD 7 cap with no bonuses or advantages permitted be?

I like HBMC's idea. That would work for me.

 

One question though.  What would be a scout team for IG?

Nothing really. We're keeping Ratlings, they're just a 5-man squad rather than 10 to keep things balanced. We did the same thing for Eldar Rangers, making their Long Rifles into R36" S4 AP4 Rapid Fire weapons, and adding Ranger Snipers (0-3 per squad of Rangers) that follow our Sniper Rules.

BYE

(small digression)

optional addenda - p. 43 Codex: IG:

Scholae Progenium Experimental Munitions

Stormtroopers who upgrade to both infiltrate and deep strike are automatically reissued their helguns, improved with discrete launching grooves, and a single round each of Scholae Progenium Experimental Munitions. Since they are trained to recover them from the bodies of their incapacitated squad mates, the entire squad counts as being equipped with a single one-shot grenade launcher for each original squad member. The squad may fire up to one launcher per surviving member per turn. The effective profile of SPEM is thus their player's choice of S6 AP4 24" Assault x or S3 AP- 24" Assault x Blast, where x is the number of grenades fired. i.e ten SPEMtroopers have taken six casualties from a Tactical Squad with a keen-eyed Heavy Bolter prior to having had an opportunity to shoot. The survivors move up, then reply with krak SPEM. At x=6, krak SPEM counts as S6 AP4 Assault 6, and a single marine is knocked down before he cas use his boltgun.

with opponent's permission: SPEM+
SPEM+ costs +0 points. This is next-generation, semi-illicit tech sold by shady xenos who flit through the Eastern Fringe; or reproduced archeotech fragments not yet in general production. While the crude launching mechanism of ordinary SPEM allows little control over the direction of the grenade, SPEM+ incorporate micro-stabilizers and propulsers of various technical origins. In game, this is represented by allowing SPEM+troopers the ability to fire other weapons the same turn as their squad uses SPEM. In addition, SPEM+ may opt to fire at G24" instead of 24".

(after all, if you put two bad things together you end up with something good )

You should rename it; the acronym sounds and looks like somthing else which will bring even more laughter to the sight of storm troopers.

Storm troopers could be fixed very easily, I still vote for strength 6, ap nill, assault 1, 18inch hellguns. Stripped down multi-lasers.

Im am re-writing the entire IG codex Ill post it in here along with what I am calling 5th ed rules over winter break.

What I am proposing for the stormtroopers is this:
Same profile and weapons but:

Special Rules:
Crack Shots: Imperial Guard Stormstroopers are specially trained to hit where it hurts while on the move with thier hellgins, they add +1 to the Strength of hellguns and hellpistols when they fire them. In addition they may treat hellguns as Assault 2 when within 6" from an enemy model.

Airborne Infantry: Storm troopers may move in movement phase, shoot and assault in the turn that they arrive if they arrive by deep strike.

Wargear:(This is availible to Veteran SGT.)
Veteran Sgt. May take Officer only Items
NEW: Homing beacon: Storm troopers do not scatter when they deep strike if the veteran sgt. has a homing beacon.

Keep them the same points cost.

This is only a preview of things that I think should be fixed. Im also compiling other ideas Ive seen in here. Some people in here have really good ideas.

Scipio in his Vox-Caster thread drew differences between HSO, SO and JOs by granting bonuses to the HSO and the SO. Why not take that idea further? For instance, say with wargear medals, you could have three "tiers" of medal, each higher tier granting a better advantage, coupled with a higher cost and only assable to a higher grade of officer.

Some examples: The Macarian Cross at JO level does what it says. At the SO tier, it costs 20 points and two units within 12" can be redeployed. At the HSO tier, it costs 30 points and three units within 12" can be redeployed.  The Crimson Medallion at JO level does what it says, at SO (for 20 points) level for 20 points all non-advisors plus the SO benefit from it (the SO hangs around with veterans who have gone through the same hell he has), and at HSO level (for 30 points), the HSO+non-advisors benefit from the medal, plus get a toughness of 4.

A couple of rules we're about to begin testing change how advisors, support squads and a few other things such as Medics work within an Infantry Platoon.

For example, current Infantry Platoon is:

Command Section
2-5 Infantry Squads
0-1 Remnant Squad

We've devised a slightly different structure:

Command Section
2-5 Infantry Squads
0-2 Platoon Support Squads
0-1 Combat Engineer Unit
0-1 Sniper
0-1 Platoon Medic
0-1 Commissar

Command Section and Infantry Squads remain as is. The Platoon Support Sections are either a Fire Support Squad w/HBs or ACs, an AT unit with either Rocket or Missile Launchers (we have a distinction between the two in our rules), or a Mortar Section (from which we removed 'the suck', so Mortars are useful). Combat Engineers are just a fancy name for Special Weapon Squads. A Sniper is self-explanatory (using the Sniper Rules detailed on the last page).

The Platoon Medic is an character that is either part of a unit as a UC, or separate as an IC (but cannot join units). As a Unit Character he gives the squad he's with a 5+ Ignore Injury save (the name we gave Feel No Pain saves). As an IC he projects a 6" radius that gives all models within that range a 6+ Ignore Injury save.

The Commissar, like the Platoon Medic, can be joined or separate. Joined he will act as he does now - executing the leader of a unit and taking over if they fail a test. As an IC he gives you a choice. You can either chose to take the test and risk running, or choose to automatically pass the test, but you must remove a model from the squad. He has a radius of 6". You can increase this radius to 12" by buying a Commissar Support Team, consisting of two men and a Heavy Bolter. The radius is increased to 12", but any unit that uses the Commissars rule loses D3 members of the unit rather than just one (just like in Enemy at the Gates, where the Commissars had machine guns set up to kill retreating conscripts).

BYE

That's an interesting organization, HBMC. It is one that I'd definitely be willing to experiment with.

As for the Storm Troopers, a complete overhaul such as this would render them much more effective without becoming game dominating, IMHO.

Storm Trooper Squad

                                  WS   BS    S   T   W   I   A   Ld   Sv       Points Cost
Storm Trooper            3     4      3   3    1   3   1   8      4+         9
Veteran Sergeant       3     4      3   3    1   3   2   9      4+       18

Number/Squad: Veteran Sergeant and between 4 and 9 Storm Troopers

Weapons: Hellguns with Targeters, Frag Grenades. The Veteran Sergeant may replace his Hellgun* with a Hellpistol** and Close Combat Weapon for no additional cost.

Options: Two Storm Troopers may form a single heavy weapon crew, where both members forfeit their Hellguns with the Targeters (but not their Frags) in exchange for a single heavy weapon. One member carries ammunition and additional equipment while the other carries and fires the weapon. If the member of the team with the weapon is killed, the ammo-carrier may instead be removed (as the only other person in his squad with adequate training, he feels inclined to take the weapon from his dead team member). One of the following heavy weapons must be bought for the heavy weapon team

Man-Portable Multilaser for +15 points. Strength 6, AP 6, Assault 2, 24" Range.

Heavy Flamethrower for +10 points. Strength 5, AP 4, Assault 1, Template.

Additionally, up to two other Storm Troopers may replace their Hellgun and attached Targeter for one of the following special weapons:

Plasma Gun for +10 points

Meltagun for +10 points

Flamethrower for +5 points

All members of the squad may take Melta Bombs for +3 points per model. In addition, Storm Troopers may replace their Hellguns for auto-shotguns*** at no additional cost. Any number of models may take this upgrade - they are not required to all have the same kind of weapon.

Character: The Veteran Storm Trooper Sergeant has access to the Imperial Guard Armory and may take "Officer Only" items. They may, however, only take up to 30 points of wargear.

Transport: The squad may be mounted in a Chimera transport vehicle at the cost indicated under the Chimera Transport entry in the Imperial Guard codex. This is typicall 70 points plus whatever the cost of the hull and turret mounted weapons are.

Additionally, if the squad numbers 5 models, they may be mounted in a Centaur dedicated transport for 50 points plus the cost of its upgrades. Centaurs are armed with a pintle-mounted Heavy Stubber.

Special Rules
Infiltrate/Deep Stirke: Storm Troopers are skilled fighters, and are trained in the highly dangerous art of sneaking behind enemy lines and the proper execution of combat drops from Valkrie dropships. Storm Troopers that are without a transport may either Deep Strike or Infiltrate for no additional cost, but only in the mission permits (Think of this as their veteran skill).

Modified/New Weapon Stats:

                             Str.      AP      Range      Type
Hellgun:               4         6         24"            Rapid Fire

Hellpistol:            4         6         18"            Assault 1

Auto-Shotgun:     3         5         18"            Assault 2


What do you all think? I think that by making the Hellgun a decent, but not too powerful ranged weapon and by giving STs the option of taking a decent Assault 2 standard weapon that they will become a unit that can be tailored to their commander's liking:

You want a shooty firebase, give 'em all Hellguns with a Man-Portable Multilaser (invention mine) and a pair of Plasma Guns.

You want a nice counter-assault unit with decent firepower, give 'em all Auto-Shotguns, along with a Heavy Flamethrower and two Flamers. Slap an Honorifica and a Powersword on your Vet Sarge, and it suddenly becomes a powerful unit that is now worth its salt on the battlefield.

comments and criticism welcome

CK

That actually looks like a more 'authentic' platoon structure, H. - closer to what one'd imagine a platoon to have in a WWII film, f'rinstance. I like the upgrades, and the take on advisers.

playing with foil's multi-laser idea:

Semi-Restricted Troops:
A single force organization chart slot of these troops are always available. 0-1 squads per slot may always be selected without spending a doctrine. If a doctrine point is spent, 0-3 squads per slot may be selected.
Ratlings
Hardened Veterans
Heavy Weapons Platoons
Ogryns
Enginseers

Stormtroopers Squad
4-9 Stormtroopers @ 10 points each
0-1 Veteran Sergeant @ 25 points
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
Stormtrooper 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 8 4+
Veteran Sergeant 4 4 3 3 1 4 2 9 4+
Officer 5 4 3 3 2 5 3 10 4+

Helpistol S3 AP5 Pistol
Helcarbine S3 AP5 Assault 4 18"
Helrifle S6 AP4 Heavy 1 42" Pinning

equipment/starting GSRs: helpistol, ccw, frag grenades, krak grenades, always count as equipped with vox-caster, Deep Strike, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Stealth

options: (Stormtrooper Sergeants do NOT have access to the armoury)
Any number of Stormtroopers in the squad may replace their close combat weapon with either a helcarbine or melta bombs at +2 points.
Up to one in three stormtroopers in the squad, rounded up, may replace their melta bombs with a helrifle or a power weapon at +4 points, or a melta gun for +8 points; and/or their helpistol with plasma pistol or a one-handed flamer at +5 points. (does not add +1 A, works as ordinary flamer BUT may be carried along with a two-handed weapon)
Up to one in three of these Stormtroopers, rounded up, may further replace his power weapon with a power fist at +10 points; melta gun for a multi-melta at +5 points; flamer and other weapons with a heavy flamer at +10 points; or plasma pistol and other weapons with a plasma gun at + 5 points.
A single Stormtrooper Veteran Sergeant per Force Organzation Chart Slot may be upgraded to a Stormtrooper Officer at +40 points instead of selecting any other upgrades. He becomes an independent character, though unable to leave his unit until it is destroyed. Stormtrooper Officers are paragons of the martial traditions of the Scholae Exhubitos in the same manner as Commissars embody their political traditions, as as such count as having been awarded the Medallion Crimson. They benefits from the Leadership Special Rule and may purchase weapons from the armoury. (and count as Officer for doing so) Their squads always count as being equipped with a Narthecium and Improved Comms.

(i.e. 9 Stormtroopers with 1 Veteran Sergeant is a 10 strong unit, 1/3 of this rounding up is four. So two upgrade their helpistols to one-handed flamers and two - including the Sergeant - replace their ccws with melta bombs, their melta bombs with power weapons, and, since 1/3 of 4 round up is 2, their power weapons with power fists. The squad costs 157 points after upgrades.)

I like your take on Storm Troopers, wight_widow. We both took quite different paths with them.

I like the idea of the man portable multilaser. Making it an assault weapon is a little overpowered though. I would like to see it availible for the same price as a heavy bolter in the future for fire support squads, also as heavy weapons in general. Its somthing I have been thinking about a lot revently Im surprised somone else had the same idea.

@Max - it certainly would draw more distinction between what rank you give your Officer.  I hardley see anyone take an HSO and I've never seen anyone take an SO (and I can't think of why you would).

@Korpsman: TY. Pretty much you brought the points down, whereas I made them masters of cheap, redundant wargear and GSRs. It's interesting that we both gave them good "sweeper team" options, limited heavy weapon selection, and "split" foil's S6 18" helgun idea into a S6 special weapon and an Imperial Avenger Shurikat. My omission of transport options was more an oversight than anything and I rip off Tau a bit more than you. The "minilaser" looks pretty balanced IMHO - pretty much two grenade launchers stuck together - or the storm bolter from hel. (ha ha ha) You could probably bring it down to ten points though - even though it's got better effective range, it's not quite as good as a plasma vs. MEQs so it wouldn't be out of line to have it at an equivalent price.

We're testing Storm Troopers in a slightly different way.

Our original idea came from when we redid the Daemonhunter's Codex. We wanted Inquisitorial Storm Troopers to become more of a force of their own, rather than just the troops choice that wasn't Grey Knights. To this end we changed the special weapon limit to 4 rather than 2, and made Targeters give you +50% range if you didn't move (and they were attached to all guns, even special weapons).

As far as Hellguns, we took the idea from one of Kyotot's suggestions. They're S3 AP6 Rapid Fire, but can be overcharged to A6 AP4 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot! if you want to. We've yet to test it, but I am interested to see if that works.

We also added Acute Senses/Night Vision, Deep Strike, Infiltration and Ambush to their automatic rules (Ambush being the Lictor-like deployment). They're also Stubborn, as, at least in the old fluff, Storm Troopers are men who didn't make Commissar, so their bravery and faith in the Emperor is likely to be very similar to that of a Commissar, but we didn't want to make Stormies into another Fearless unit, so they got Stubborn.

BYE

Those are some damn good Storm Troopers, H.

I think if they allowed 4 specials w/ +50% range for not moving, I would have six 5-man teamns hanging out behind my gunline, all with 4 Plasmas. That's 24 Plasma shots at 36" Range. Most of my opponents are not MEQ, but that would still suck to go up against.

I'm still against the idea of having a squad's standard weapon be Str6 AP4, even if it has "Gets Hot!" In the "Fix a Useless Weapon" thread, you proposed that Hellguns be made Str4 AP6. I think that would work best as a change, since even with the overheat for Kyoto-pattern Hellguns, the Stormie is only going to die 1/12 of the time, or 1/6 of the time if he rapid-fires each turn. It's too overpowered, IMHO.

Since this is a "Guard Wishlist" thread, I'll also say that I think Shotguns would become useful if they were amended to be Str3, AP5, Assault2, Range 12", and they would become a viable option for Hardened Veterans in the counter-assault role.

I like your idea of giving them Acute Senses. I don't know about the other stuff - I think that Stubborn would work if it were tweaked to be like Mark of Chaos Undivided, where as long as the sergeant/vet sgt is alive, the squad may reroll up to one failed morale check per player turn. It would make them good, but not godly.

CK

Ahh! Corpsman! Thankyou for reminding me. The Stubborn was going to be when they took a Vet Sergeant. I forgot about that. Thankyou.

The brainstorming (no pun intended) session for Guard was a while ago and I'm just writing the Codex now, so a few details have been missed. Thanks for reminding me of that.

As far as Infiltrate/Deep Strike/Ambush - they are Special Forces and have multiple types of deployment. Having all those types makes sense to me.

And I'm not too worried about the S6 Hellgun. Storm Troopers, despite being special forces, are still inferior to Sisters and Marines. They need something for some added 'punch' as Hellguns really do suck. And I think Gets Hot! an appropriate rule for such an increase in power.

Aside from that, of all the proposed suggestions (other than the standard 'make it rending' responces) the S6/Gets Hot! idea seemed to me to be the best. Old fluff, especially in Necromunda, has Hotshot packs (what the Hellgun is based on) burning out far quicker than regular Lasgun power packs (6+ Ammo Roll in Necro compared to 2+ for a Lasgun). And while it never killed the operator, I think that the Gets Hot! is what balances it. And it's not AP3 either. It's AP4.

And as far as Shotguns go, we gave them the old Solid and Scatter shot from 2nd Ed. S4 AP4 Assault 1 for Solid and S3 AP5 Assault1/Blast/Ignores Cover Saves for Scatter. Admittedly the Scatter needs to be tested, as there are a few units (Scouts and H-Vets) that can get a LOT of Shotguns, and hitting a unit with 10 blast markers could be overpowered.

BYE

Maybe, for the scattershot on the shotgun, it would be better to simply make it Assault 3. BS4 Vets and Stormies will hit twice, which is about how many models will be hit under a small blast template, unless they're spread to their full two inches, in which case it is safe to say that the shotgun user has switched from pump to auto.

Although I cannot say I don't like the idea of making Stormies not suck with a Str6 AP4 Gets Hot! shot, I still just disagree with this particular way of going about it. Sure, I'd definitely field even more of them if a revision was made that used your way (Str3 AP6 Normal, St6 AP4 Gets Hot! for overcharge) than if they used mine (Str4 AP6 all the time), it just doesn't sit well with me.

Another interesting idea I've recently though of is making the Hellgun a Str3, AP4, Assault2 Range 24" weapon, Sort of like the Lasgun family's version of the Bolter family's Storm Bolter. That might be too effective though. I still think that Storm Troopers have the greatest potential for revision in the next Guard codex, which, sadly, probably won't be until '09 or '10, just in time for 5th Ed.

CK

Assaulty hellguns make a lot of sense considering the free grenades that stormies get. S3 AP5 assault2 24" maybe?

@Strange:
I thought about that, but then I realized that they should be like H Vets in that they get the option to be assaulty with shotguns and Officer only CC weapons for the ST Sarge. I kept the Hellgun as a rapid fire weapon simply because it makes them versatile, giving the player the option of either making them a hard shooty squad or a assaulty squad.

It's not a bad idea though, as I rather like it (it would be my second choice for a Hellgun amendment, after the Str4 AP6 Rapid Fire 24").

CK

In the Ogre Kingdoms book, it's possible to buy magic items in the form of "Big Names", honorifics that represent deeds the Ogre has done, and are reflected in a special rule, such as "Longstrider", which grants +1 to the movement profile. In the same way that medals are an appropriate type of wargear for officers, wouldn't nicknames be as appropriate a type of wargear?

Some possible examples: Buying the nickname "Wild Bull" for a platoon JO gives the officer a rep for for the intensity of his attacks. Guardsmen in his platoon replace their lasguns for lascarbines, which have almost the same stats, except they have an 18" range and are Assault 3. Buying "The Fox" for the CO allows any units held in reserve to be deployed from any table edge, not just the deployment table edge.

@Max, that's really interesting and would help add plenty of character to a guard army.

I've been playing with several Guard options for a while now -- the only one I've tried is 'Flexible Platoons,' though.

Flexible Platoons: For each full Platoon, you may take up to two Independent Guard squads. These may be standard Guard Infantry, Cityfighting Infantry Squads, or Hive Gangers.

Basic Weapons: Rather than lasguns, all guard may be equipped with a basic weapon of choice at +1pts model. This weapon may be:
Laspistol AND Close Combat Weapon (RNG: 12 STR: 3 AP: 6 Pistol)
Shotgun AND Frag Grenades (RNG: 12" STR: 3 AP: 5 Assault: 2)
Lascarbine (RNG: 18" STR: 3 AP: 6 Assault: 2)
Lasgun (RNG: 24" STR: 3 AP: 6 Rapid Fire)
Lasrifle (RNG: 30" STR: 3 AP: 5 Heavy 1)

These all go a long way to making the Guard a little more flexible -- and, hence, useful and survivable. I'd like to see better costing on Carapace Armor, too -- I hate paying the same number of points to Carapace a JO Command Squad as a standard Infantry squad.

Fixes for Ogryn are simply de rigeur -- RR are too fragile to be a useful counter assault unit most of the time for me.

Finally, I'd like to see some faster Guard options -- light tanks, option for mounting in a Rhino rather than a Chimera (after all, they are the most COMMON VEHICLE IN THE IMPERIUM) etc.

-Adso

Quote from Scipio - "Well Max, thats great...you took a unit that I like to field and well replaced it with a crappy unit that I wouldn't touch.  I think they tried the 2 man teams in Codex: Catachan last edition and I don't recall too many people fielding those type of sniper teams...in fact I can't think of anyone.  I suppose if you wanted two man sniper teams you could field special weapon teams currently but I don't know anyone who does that either."

Actually, I was very saddened when they got rid of the option of taking death world snipers in a regular guard force.  I took nine snipers as elites.  With a 2+ to hit, plus rerolls to would due to deadly toxins - they were great to have.  I had nine units that needed to be targeted separately in order to kill them, when they typically had a 3+ invulnerable save due to cover.  There was also the potential of nine separate pin checks a turn.  The catachan snipers were simply awesome. 

The funny thing is my biggest argument about me playing a cheesy IG force came from my armies that took nine deathworld snipers of them. 

On the subject of faster options, the FW Guntractor was a bit of a letdown. Forget towing artillery, what we wanted was a Guard Trukk!

Possibly make Chimmies default open topped at 60 points, gains hull lasguns and option of hull weapon for free with roof? I think they work fine as they are for a light tank/AFV option. Allowing them to be taken as a skateboard would give the Guard a solid light assault transport.

Wight....why stick with Chimerae? Rhinos are so common all over the Imperium that the Adeptus Arbites use them, for the Emperor's sake. It always struck me as odd the Guard didn't have them as an option...maybe with the option for a passenger-fired heavy bolter if you need a 'light tank.'

It looks like your wish has been granted, Wight: http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/6/postid/124474/view/topic/Default.aspx - there's even a bolt-on big shoota! However, if we want to see more infantry carriers, Guard need more reasons to want to be carried around. Units like Stormtroopers and H-Vets carry assault and rapid-fire weaponry a go-go, but standard Guard squads usually carry Heavy weaponry, which doesn't like being moved. Perhaps Iron Fist sqauds and squads with the Mechanised Doctrine should be able forgo the heavy weapon in favour of another special? Perhaps at a higher cost for both specials (to prevent special weapon spammage)?

Frankly, my Guard want to get around so I can have them sieze objectives without paying through the nose for it!

Also, if Guard have the kind of regimental differences shown in the Doctrines, why don't they have the same operational diversity? A Guard 'light mechanized' army with a lot of shotguns, grenade launchers, and Rhinos should be more feasible.

Also, the cost of Chimerae make Mechanized all too expensive as a doctrine -- if there were a cheaper transport option, it might become more useful. You know, give Chimerae to the important squads and characters, but the grunts risk it in Rhinos.

-Adso

Posted By BrotherAdso on 12/07/2006 6:10 PM

Also, the cost of Chimerae make Mechanized all too expensive as a doctrine -- if there were a cheaper transport option, it might become more useful. You know, give Chimerae to the important squads and characters, but the grunts risk it in Rhinos.

-Adso

Or your firefight troops (ST's, 4 flamer guys etc.)