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I don't think the armor is a wash. Savvy guard players can force most attacks onto the AV 12 front.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think the armor is a wash. Savvy guard players can force most attacks onto the AV 12 front.

It really depends on how they are being used. Chimeras that are more aggressive are going to eat more side shots, but in general, AV12/10/10 is simply better than AV11/11/10, if only because they can survive long range shooting much better, especially in the first turn or two.

OTOH, if I could straight up buy Rhinos for my IG, I totally would for mech vets.

IG used to have the option of having Rhinos in a past edition... actually the Chimera actually felt like a tank as it was immune to small arms (bolters and cc from infantry without at least a power weapon couldn't harm it), and came standard with a storm bolter in addition to the HB an ML. Come to mention it, it used to hit on 3+ with all its weapons.

I would be happy if the Chimera got a point increase, but then had real armour to make it feel like a tank.

70p
12 12 11

Seriously. An Ork trukk has AV 10, which is basically a modern flatbed Truck with some metal welded on it.

or just leave it at 65 but give it the armour of the hellhound (isnt that a Chimera anyway?)
12 12 10

What do you think?

The Chimera is honestly pretty well balanced, it's really not that badly priced, especially compared to a rhino. Its easily worth its points, like 100 times over.

All the Chimera could be added to remain balanced is +1 on the flank armor. Otherwise it's all fine,I believe.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The Chimera is honestly pretty well balanced, it's really not that badly priced, especially compared to a rhino. Its easily worth its points, like 100 times over.

Hrm, not so much, at least in this edition.

Crap armor except for one facing, a single disembarkation point that requires putting the one good armor facing in the direct opposite direction of where its needed to best use that disembarkation point, firepower that is dramatically less useful now than it was several editions ago, and costs nearly as much as the units it transports in many cases.

One will notice chimera heavy IG armies arent exactly scaring much of anyone these days

And havent in almost 5 years.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The Chimera is honestly pretty well balanced, it's really not that badly priced, especially compared to a rhino. Its easily worth its points, like 100 times over.

Hrm, not so much, at least in this edition.

Crap armor except for one facing, a single disembarkation point that requires putting the one good armor facing in the direct opposite direction of where its needed to best use that disembarkation point, firepower that is dramatically less useful now than it was several editions ago, and costs nearly as much as the units it transports in many cases.

One will notice chimera heavy IG armies arent exactly scaring much of anyone these days

And havent in almost 5 years.

Really? Thats interesting.

The few games I've played against IG, they did their job perfectly, 12 armor is good, and a lot of good players will always have that facing you, it's never been the bane of my existence, but it has always been pretty good at getting troops where they need to go, and being tough enough for its points.

Might just be my meta, or terrible generalship on my part

 Vaktathi wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The Chimera is honestly pretty well balanced, it's really not that badly priced, especially compared to a rhino. Its easily worth its points, like 100 times over.

Hrm, not so much, at least in this edition.

Crap armor except for one facing, a single disembarkation point that requires putting the one good armor facing in the direct opposite direction of where its needed to best use that disembarkation point, firepower that is dramatically less useful now than it was several editions ago, and costs nearly as much as the units it transports in many cases.

One will notice chimera heavy IG armies arent exactly scaring much of anyone these days

And havent in almost 5 years.

Cant you deploy anywhere with in 6" of the disembarkation point? So why would you need to turn around?

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The Chimera is honestly pretty well balanced, it's really not that badly priced, especially compared to a rhino. Its easily worth its points, like 100 times over.

Hrm, not so much, at least in this edition.

Crap armor except for one facing, a single disembarkation point that requires putting the one good armor facing in the direct opposite direction of where its needed to best use that disembarkation point, firepower that is dramatically less useful now than it was several editions ago, and costs nearly as much as the units it transports in many cases.

One will notice chimera heavy IG armies arent exactly scaring much of anyone these days

And havent in almost 5 years.

Really? Thats interesting.

The few games I've played against IG, they did their job perfectly, 12 armor is good, and a lot of good players will always have that facing you, it's never been the bane of my existence, but it has always been pretty good at getting troops where they need to go, and being tough enough for its points.

Might just be my meta, or terrible generalship on my part

meta can obviously differ, but the Chimera took several hard nerfs with the 2014 codex (both direct in cost increases and firing point nerfs, and indirect through other things) and the post 5E vehicle changes have not been terribly kind to the IG in general, while ways around that frontal armor through outflanking or deep strike or ignores cover (from angled shots) or barrage and the like has become increasingly more available and common as the firepower quotient of armies has also spiked, making a multaser and heavy bolter for almost 70pts a lot less interesting.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The Chimera is honestly pretty well balanced, it's really not that badly priced, especially compared to a rhino. Its easily worth its points, like 100 times over.

Hrm, not so much, at least in this edition.

Crap armor except for one facing, a single disembarkation point that requires putting the one good armor facing in the direct opposite direction of where its needed to best use that disembarkation point, firepower that is dramatically less useful now than it was several editions ago, and costs nearly as much as the units it transports in many cases.

One will notice chimera heavy IG armies arent exactly scaring much of anyone these days

And havent in almost 5 years.

Cant you deploy anywhere with in 6" of the disembarkation point? So why would you need to turn around?

extra distance, if you dont expose the rear you're giving up potentially ~4" of extra potential disembark distance (the length of the hull of the Chimera) which can be critical for objective nabbing or meltagun doubletap range or the like.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
The Chimera is honestly pretty well balanced, it's really not that badly priced, especially compared to a rhino. Its easily worth its points, like 100 times over.

Hrm, not so much, at least in this edition.

Crap armor except for one facing, a single disembarkation point that requires putting the one good armor facing in the direct opposite direction of where its needed to best use that disembarkation point, firepower that is dramatically less useful now than it was several editions ago, and costs nearly as much as the units it transports in many cases.

One will notice chimera heavy IG armies arent exactly scaring much of anyone these days

And havent in almost 5 years.

Cant you deploy anywhere with in 6" of the disembarkation point? So why would you need to turn around?

extra distance, if you dont expose the rear you're giving up potentially ~4" of extra potential disembark distance (the length of the hull of the Chimera) which can be critical for objective nabbing or meltagun doubletap range or the like.

That's fair.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I think I can see the process. A Rhino is 35 points-let's assume that's fairly priced.

Armor is a wash on Rhino vs. Chimera. AV 11/11/10 is better in some ways than 12/10/10, but worse in others. 0 Points.
Heavy Bolter is easily worth a bit more than a Storm Bolter. 5 Points.
Multi-Laser is probably worth even more than that upgrade. 10 Points.
Lasgun Arrays aren't the best, but they're not that bad either. 5 Points.

And there you go-55 Point Chimera.

That being said, I don't play guard, and from what I've heard, Guard in general are too pricey/not good enough. So while I see the logic behind a 55 Point Chimera, I also understand that in practice, it might not be worth that.

Lasgun array isn't worth more than 1-2 pts and should probably be free in this analysis, it rarely hurts anything.

I'm not saying the analysis is spot on-like I said, I'm no guard player, I don't really know how well Chimeras do. But I'm just looking at the potential logic behind the pricing.

Plus, even if the Lasgun Array is free, isn't the Chimera a Command Vehicle? So that should be worth something, right?

All cower before the mighty Rhino.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'm not saying the analysis is spot on-like I said, I'm no guard player, I don't really know how well Chimeras do. But I'm just looking at the potential logic behind the pricing.

Plus, even if the Lasgun Array is free, isn't the Chimera a Command Vehicle? So that should be worth something, right?

I suppose so.

Edit: it should be an optional upgrade that you can pay for though.

The command vehicle ability, while nice, isnt worth all *that* much, much like a Rhino's self repair. You have to be carrying a command squad, it has to fulfill all the orders requirements, and you have to be close enough to another disembarked infantry unit thats already in position to do something, and that utility is so variable that its not really worth factoring in that isnt already covered in thr command squads costs anyway (which also went up with the 2014 codex).

 Vaktathi wrote:
The command vehicle ability, while nice, isnt worth all *that* much, much like a Rhino's self repair. You have to be carrying a command squad, it has to fulfill all the orders requirements, and you have to be close enough to another disembarked infantry unit thats already in position to do something, and that utility is so variable that its not really worth factoring in that isnt already covered in thr command squads costs anyway (which also went up with the 2014 codex).

Was the Taurox worth the price bump?

 Vaktathi wrote:
The command vehicle ability, while nice, isnt worth all *that* much, much like a Rhino's self repair. You have to be carrying a command squad, it has to fulfill all the orders requirements, and you have to be close enough to another disembarked infantry unit thats already in position to do something, and that utility is so variable that its not really worth factoring in that isnt already covered in thr command squads costs anyway (which also went up with the 2014 codex).

It's an upgrade with a highly variable worth. Obviously most of the time it's worth nothing, as the embarked squad isn't a command squad. PCS orders are useful, but never huge. A CCS that can give big orders can be valuable, as the ignores cover order alone can swing a game.

Still, if it were a 10pt upgrade, you'd buy it for the CCS, and nobody else needs to pay for it.

Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The command vehicle ability, while nice, isnt worth all *that* much, much like a Rhino's self repair. You have to be carrying a command squad, it has to fulfill all the orders requirements, and you have to be close enough to another disembarked infantry unit thats already in position to do something, and that utility is so variable that its not really worth factoring in that isnt already covered in thr command squads costs anyway (which also went up with the 2014 codex).

Was the Taurox worth the price bump?

Negative, at least in my opinion, it was an unasked for new addition that really didnt quite fit the rest of the army or offer a viable alternative to the role of the Chimera.

Polonius wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The command vehicle ability, while nice, isnt worth all *that* much, much like a Rhino's self repair. You have to be carrying a command squad, it has to fulfill all the orders requirements, and you have to be close enough to another disembarked infantry unit thats already in position to do something, and that utility is so variable that its not really worth factoring in that isnt already covered in thr command squads costs anyway (which also went up with the 2014 codex).

It's an upgrade with a highly variable worth. Obviously most of the time it's worth nothing, as the embarked squad isn't a command squad. PCS orders are useful, but never huge. A CCS that can give big orders can be valuable, as the ignores cover order alone can swing a game.

Still, if it were a 10pt upgrade, you'd buy it for the CCS, and nobody else needs to pay for it.

Eh, Id rather see them just go back to a flat 55pts, command squads already got a price bump anyway, and requiring the Chimera to pay for the upgrade that nobody had an issue with being integral before seems like forcing an extra purchase just for the illusion of another option.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The command vehicle ability, while nice, isnt worth all *that* much, much like a Rhino's self repair. You have to be carrying a command squad, it has to fulfill all the orders requirements, and you have to be close enough to another disembarked infantry unit thats already in position to do something, and that utility is so variable that its not really worth factoring in that isnt already covered in thr command squads costs anyway (which also went up with the 2014 codex).

Was the Taurox worth the price bump?

Negative, at least in my opinion, it was an unasked for new addition that really didnt quite fit the rest of the army or offer a viable alternative to the role of the Chimera

That happens. Maybe the Chimera's price will drop back when the flop of the Taurox becomes obvious - Or Guard will get access to the Rhino/Razorbacks in an attempt to boost their sales.
Still, unless vehicles stop being rubbish though...

Aye....thats the bigger issue, fixing the fundamental vehicles rules needs to happen

I figured out what bugs me about the taurox: in many ways, it's what I've always wanted, a cheaper, more mobile pure transport. Alas, it's not that cheap, it's not all that more mobile, and it's primary weapon is actually better than the chimera! Meaning, it's best run as a fire support vehicle than as a battle taxi.

,This wasn't hard, GW. We wanted a jeep/universal carrior, which for 40k would be an open topped, fast vehicle with a heavy stubber and a transport capacity of six. Charge 30 points, and make it an option for command squads and special weapon teams.

 Polonius wrote:
I figured out what bugs me about the taurox: in many ways, it's what I've always wanted, a cheaper, more mobile pure transport. Alas, it's not that cheap, it's not all that more mobile, and it's primary weapon is actually better than the chimera! Meaning, it's best run as a fire support vehicle than as a battle taxi.

,This wasn't hard, GW. We wanted a jeep/universal carrior, which for 40k would be an open topped, fast vehicle with a heavy stubber and a transport capacity of six. Charge 30 points, and make it an option for command squads and special weapon teams.

So something like what FW already had for them, but GW chose to ignore. The Salamander?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I figured out what bugs me about the taurox: in many ways, it's what I've always wanted, a cheaper, more mobile pure transport. Alas, it's not that cheap, it's not all that more mobile, and it's primary weapon is actually better than the chimera! Meaning, it's best run as a fire support vehicle than as a battle taxi.

,This wasn't hard, GW. We wanted a jeep/universal carrior, which for 40k would be an open topped, fast vehicle with a heavy stubber and a transport capacity of six. Charge 30 points, and make it an option for command squads and special weapon teams.

So something like what FW already had for them, but GW chose to ignore. The Salamander?

Yeah, or the Centaur.

Part of the problem is that the IG's signature heavy weapon is the autocannon, but the flagship transport can't take it (outside of a FW option). So putting the Autocannon on the Taurox made sense, but it clashes with the role that the Taurox should have played: agile battle taxi.

the model is also really, really ugly. It grows on you, but it still never looks good, and at $48 a piece, I don't want something that needs another $20 in after market kits to look decent.

I hear ya. I'm looking at the Taurox Prime I have from the Scions Getting Started box and it needs the 20 dollar upgrade.

For the record, I've never subscribed to the theory that GW writers rules to promote new kits, if only because they're so painfully bad at it!

In 7th, the IG got the Taurox/Prime, the Hydra/Wyvvern, Scions/Scions command, and Bullgryns/Ogryns as new plastic kits. Only one of those eight options is top teir, and several are actively terrible.

In 6th, the IG got the Valkyrie, the Hellhound/DD/BW, and eventaully the Manticore/Deathstrike. The Valk was awesome, as was the manticore, but that didn't come out until later. All three hound variants were mediocre.

Humorous answer: How can something that costs zero be overcosted?

 Melissia wrote:
Humorous answer: How can something that costs zero be overcosted?

When it makes you worse for taking it?

(N.B. just playing devil’s advocate/thought experiment here)

Taking a rhino is some lists could be an easy first blood, depending on the rest of your composition.
It could clog your deployment zone.
When it blows up, it could kill stuff nearby.
The opportunity cost of not taking a rhino/razor

There are some things in game that make you worse off for taking them. For example, I would not take a stormbolter for a sternguard squad, even if they were free. Much less pay the 5 points to cripple a marine.

Rhinos are good at what they do at their price point. I don’t run a full company list, so pay for mine. And I don’t begrudge those points.

 Polonius wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I figured out what bugs me about the taurox: in many ways, it's what I've always wanted, a cheaper, more mobile pure transport. Alas, it's not that cheap, it's not all that more mobile, and it's primary weapon is actually better than the chimera! Meaning, it's best run as a fire support vehicle than as a battle taxi.

,This wasn't hard, GW. We wanted a jeep/universal carrior, which for 40k would be an open topped, fast vehicle with a heavy stubber and a transport capacity of six. Charge 30 points, and make it an option for command squads and special weapon teams.

So something like what FW already had for them, but GW chose to ignore. The Salamander?

Yeah, or the Centaur.

Part of the problem is that the IG's signature heavy weapon is the autocannon, but the flagship transport can't take it (outside of a FW option). So putting the Autocannon on the Taurox made sense, but it clashes with the role that the Taurox should have played: agile battle taxi.

the model is also really, really ugly. It grows on you, but it still never looks good, and at $48 a piece, I don't want something that needs another $20 in after market kits to look decent.

This is an interesting view on the Taurox/Chimera problem. Also, "battle taxi" is an awesome way of describing transports.

 Polonius wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I figured out what bugs me about the taurox: in many ways, it's what I've always wanted, a cheaper, more mobile pure transport. Alas, it's not that cheap, it's not all that more mobile, and it's primary weapon is actually better than the chimera! Meaning, it's best run as a fire support vehicle than as a battle taxi.

,This wasn't hard, GW. We wanted a jeep/universal carrior, which for 40k would be an open topped, fast vehicle with a heavy stubber and a transport capacity of six. Charge 30 points, and make it an option for command squads and special weapon teams.

So something like what FW already had for them, but GW chose to ignore. The Salamander?

Yeah, or the Centaur.

Part of the problem is that the IG's signature heavy weapon is the autocannon, but the flagship transport can't take it (outside of a FW option). So putting the Autocannon on the Taurox made sense, but it clashes with the role that the Taurox should have played: agile battle taxi.

the model is also really, really ugly. It grows on you, but it still never looks good, and at $48 a piece, I don't want something that needs another $20 in after market kits to look decent.

The ugliness and the price are the worst part. If it had been a cool looking model, a lot could have been forgiven. Or had it offered something truly unique, like the ability to fire an embarked squads heavy weapon after moving as if stationary or something, that could have been cool too, but it just ended up being an extremely ugly and painfully $$$-expensive razorback variant for the IG.

If they'd made it 40pts, open topped, and based off something like a WW2 halftrack instead of an "chibi" Iraq-war armored car, I could see some utility from that. Or made the default version fast. Just...something.

The Prime costing as many points as some Russ variants after kit doesn't help much either.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I figured out what bugs me about the taurox: in many ways, it's what I've always wanted, a cheaper, more mobile pure transport. Alas, it's not that cheap, it's not all that more mobile, and it's primary weapon is actually better than the chimera! Meaning, it's best run as a fire support vehicle than as a battle taxi.

,This wasn't hard, GW. We wanted a jeep/universal carrior, which for 40k would be an open topped, fast vehicle with a heavy stubber and a transport capacity of six. Charge 30 points, and make it an option for command squads and special weapon teams.

So something like what FW already had for them, but GW chose to ignore. The Salamander?

Yeah, or the Centaur.

Part of the problem is that the IG's signature heavy weapon is the autocannon, but the flagship transport can't take it (outside of a FW option). So putting the Autocannon on the Taurox made sense, but it clashes with the role that the Taurox should have played: agile battle taxi.

the model is also really, really ugly. It grows on you, but it still never looks good, and at $48 a piece, I don't want something that needs another $20 in after market kits to look decent.

The ugliness and the price are the worst part. If it had been a cool looking model, a lot could have been forgiven. Or had it offered something truly unique, like the ability to fire an embarked squads heavy weapon after moving as if stationary or something, that could have been cool too, but it just ended up being an extremely ugly and painfully $$$-expensive razorback variant for the IG.

If they'd made it 40pts, open topped, and based off something like a WW2 halftrack instead of an "chibi" Iraq-war armored car, I could see some utility from that. Or made the default version fast. Just...something.

The Prime costing as many points as some Russ variants after kit doesn't help much either.

I know Guard players want something cheap and open-topped but I've never quite figured out why Guard players would want something open-topped - I know why most armies would but Guard aren't exactly known for their melee ability and the fact most only want a capacity of six kind of puts shelling Necron Ark style out of the running , so, why?