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Considering the SM Rhino needs at least a SM driver, how can the cost be so little... that means the box comes at the cost of just over one marine.. which has a better weapon and is more survivable.

using the same logic for Imperial guard Chimera, the empty box costs 10 points more than the empty SM Rhino box. Chimera - 10p for multi laser - 10p for h.bolter - 15p for 3 crew (driver, 2 gunners)....
Either Chimera should cost 10p less (like it did in 5th edition) which would be fair or the Rhino should cost 10p more. Maybe the Chimera should just have side AV 12 (like the hellhounds.. which are Chimeras), seriously, how can the doors of a Rhino be tougher than a fully plated tank armour?

The Rhino driver is wearing Scout Armour and is only packing a combat knife.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The Rhino driver is wearing Scout Armour and is only packing a combat knife.

That's not tue, look at the pictures of Rhinos with the Marine poking out the top... that is a normal marine... and in second edition the crew could actually disembark and join the fight (maybe they only had a pistol? don't quite remember.. I think a Rhino had 2 crew actually). So when the DT was immobile and had weapons destroyed you could get out and fight! also one result on the damage chart was killing crew... vehicles used to be so cool

Because in-game point costs are an abstract balancing mechanic that has nothing to do with the in-universe production costs. It makes no sense to talk about paying points for the crew of vehicles because the crew have no presence in the game. And the Chimera costs more than a Rhino because it's a more powerful unit.

Makari wins wrote:
Considering the SM Rhino needs at least a SM driver, how can the cost be so little... that means the box comes at the cost of just over one marine.. which has a better weapon and is more survivable.

using the same logic for Imperial guard Chimera, the empty box costs 10 points more than the empty SM Rhino box. Chimera - 10p for multi laser - 10p for h.bolter - 15p for 3 crew (driver, 2 gunners)....
Either Chimera should cost 10p less (like it did in 5th edition) which would be fair or the Rhino should cost 10p more. Maybe the Chimera should just have side AV 12 (like the hellhounds.. which are Chimeras), seriously, how can the doors of a Rhino be tougher than a fully plated tank armour?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahahahahahahahHHhaahahHahHHahaha

*GASPS FOR AIR*

HAHAHAHAHbahHahahahahahahahahahahahHHHHHahabHahHahahH

 Peregrine wrote:
Because in-game point costs are an abstract balancing mechanic that has nothing to do with the in-universe production costs. It makes no sense to talk about paying points for the crew of vehicles because the crew have no presence in the game. And the Chimera costs more than a Rhino because it's a more powerful unit.

this. now from a actual cost POV, marine gear proably costs more money then guard gear (guard gear is designed to be dirt cheap to deploy)

now that said, I don't disagree that the guard could use a cheapper transport points wise, which.. I guess is the Taurox...

I second the previous post


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make that the previous two posts

Makari wins wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
The Rhino driver is wearing Scout Armour and is only packing a combat knife.

That's not tue, look at the pictures of Rhinos with the Marine poking out the top... that is a normal marine... and in second edition the crew could actually disembark and join the fight (maybe they only had a pistol? don't quite remember.. I think a Rhino had 2 crew actually). So when the DT was immobile and had weapons destroyed you could get out and fight! also one result on the damage chart was killing crew... vehicles used to be so cool

Since this is 7th and the crew can't get out and only really matter when looking at ballistic skill or suffering crew shaken/stunned results they might as well be automatons.

Hmm lets think about it this way then.

Take a Rhino that costs X points (has a storm botler)
add a H.Bolter +10p
add a Multi Laser +10p

Now you have a Chimera with BS4 and the ability to repair itself, for a whopping 15 points less than a Chimera from the AM codex.

even if we generously say that a storm bolter is the same as the lasgun arrays, then the AM is paying 10points to have worse BS and no self repair.

That is unbalanced rule wise

You pay the 15 points to shift the Side Av 11 to the front for a 12. Which is importsnt for surviving the first turn.

Also, Marines pay 20 points to get a TL heavy bolter and lose transport capacity and the stormbolter, so, i would say its about fair...

Don’t forget you need to pay for being amphibious.

 Nevelon wrote:
Don’t forget you need to pay for being amphibious.

And have more people shooting from inside! Granted, most shots are flashlights...

Makari wins wrote:
Hmm lets think about it this way then.

Take a Rhino that costs X points (has a storm botler)
add a H.Bolter +10p
add a Multi Laser +10p

Now you have a Chimera with BS4 and the ability to repair itself, for a whopping 15 points less than a Chimera from the AM codex.

even if we generously say that a storm bolter is the same as the lasgun arrays, then the AM is paying 10points to have worse BS and no self repair.

That is unbalanced rule wise

A Rhino doesn't self-repair, it unbogs itself - hell of a difference between managing to get itself off a shrub and repairing busted weapons or hull points, the Chimera costs extra for versatility, all those mountings that enable you to pack extra gadgets and allow options for those extra gadgets make it more complex and expensive/difficult to build than a Rhino - if you must whine about a true injustice complain about the fact that a super soldier in power armour with an armoured nuclear backpack and a rifle the size of a canon takes up the same troop capacity as an under appreciated guardsman who'd be lucky to have an an extra thick jacket for protection.

Makari wins wrote:
Considering the SM Rhino needs at least a SM driver, how can the cost be so little... that means the box comes at the cost of just over one marine.. which has a better weapon and is more survivable.

using the same logic for Imperial guard Chimera, the empty box costs 10 points more than the empty SM Rhino box. Chimera - 10p for multi laser - 10p for h.bolter - 15p for 3 crew (driver, 2 gunners)....
Either Chimera should cost 10p less (like it did in 5th edition) which would be fair or the Rhino should cost 10p more. Maybe the Chimera should just have side AV 12 (like the hellhounds.. which are Chimeras), seriously, how can the doors of a Rhino be tougher than a fully plated tank armour?

The crew of the vehicles don't get out and fight - thats an older edition so they are irrelevant to the pts cost.

Rhino comes with a Storm bolter not a hv weapon, has less fire points and does not have AV12 on the front. It should cost less than a Chimera.

And have more people shooting from inside! Granted, most shots are flashlights...

Usually BS4 Plasma Vets when I hjave encountered them.

Rhinos are incredibly easily resored/repaired. You lose a rhino, that's fine, it will be working again the next day. It's been getting disabled and repaired every week for thousands of years.


You lose a chimera? That's it, it's toast. You gotta pay to have a new one imported from another system.

That's the difference: You aren't paying your points for a new rhino, you are paying for an old one to be restored.

Chimeras simply aren't as durable so you have to pay more points to represent a new one being made and shipped over to the action.

(this is all made up nonsense)

nareik wrote:
...(this is all made up nonsense)...

Is it more or less nonsense than the rest of this thread?

 Crazyterran wrote:
You pay the 15 points to shift the Side Av 11 to the front for a 12. Which is importsnt for surviving the first turn.

Also, Marines pay 20 points to get a TL heavy bolter and lose transport capacity and the stormbolter, so, i would say its about fair...

Maybe it would be better understood to use the Taurox to compare. This beast has AV 11 front, and AV 10 on the side. It costs 15 points more than a Rhino which is for a TL autocannon (+10p) instead of a stormbolter (-5p). The TL makes its BS3 basically BS4.5. So you have a metal box that costs 10p more than a Rhino metal box but the IG version has one less AV on the side.

End result Rhino undercosted (maybe the AM vehicles are just overcosted)

Taurox should prob cost 40 and Chimera 55


The marines paying 20p more for the TL HB and losing capacity just shows you that the base Rhino is undercosted... even you realise that that is unfair.
if you look at the mathhammer, a TL HB at BS4 should get about as many hits as 2 BS3 HB (2.7 vs 3), so the armament is the same as a Chimera, but Chimera costs 10p more (for the extra capacity.. which is not directly comparable as 6 marines is worth much more than 10 guardsmen.. and should take up more space) so even this is not a good comparison.

Would you really rather take Chimeras instead of Rhinos at the current 7ed prices?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:
Rhinos are incredibly easily resored/repaired. You lose a rhino, that's fine, it will be working again the next day. It's been getting disabled and repaired every week for thousands of years.


You lose a chimera? That's it, it's toast. You gotta pay to have a new one imported from another system.

That's the difference: You aren't paying your points for a new rhino, you are paying for an old one to be restored.

Chimeras simply aren't as durable so you have to pay more points to represent a new one being made and shipped over to the action.

(this is all made up nonsense)

Fluff wise then AM should all be using the Rhinos, since they are the expendable 'cheap' massed troopers.
Basically Guard should have access to Rhinos (as they used to).. better yet, Ork Trukks

Look at it this way:

Both are boxes that have a total armor of 32 (Rhinos are 11/11/10, right?), so in terms of armor it's a tie.

Rhino has a storm bolter and one guy can shoot out the top. Suffer a Weapon Destroyed and you are a mobile box. Suffer Immobilized and you are a Drop Pod minus pseudo-Deepstrike. Eh.

Chimera is bristling with weapons. Multilaser, heavy bolter/flamer, and *8* passengers can shoot using lasgun arrays and 2 from the hatch, at *3* separate targets. Amphibious does not frequently come into play, but command squads can issue orders from inside, which eliminates their disadvantage of embarking, and in fact adds 3 or 4 inches to their order bubble, since you can measure from anywhere on the Chimera's hull rather than your commander's head.

So the Chimera is clearly more heavily armed, and is designed with important IG units in mind. The Rhino's sole purpose is to be a box, a box that moves marines real fast like or blocks line of sight sometimes. The Chimera *in a vacuum* is slightly overcosted. The Rhino *in a vacuum* might be slightly undercosted. With Rhinos you get a lot more model per point, but Chimeras have more function per point. Comparing their costs directly to one another just isn't all that sensible, as tends to happen when you compare between Codices.

EDIT: Of course, if I could take Rhinos as even cheaper transports for the basic infantry squad instead of Tauroxes, I would in a heartbeat. 85 pt per unit MSU instead of 100 pt per unit MSU is a big deal.

I think your point is fair. Comparing units from different codexes.

So then lets look at a Codex with both of them inside. Inquisition.

Here a Chimera costs 55 and a Rhino 35.

Conclusion: Chimera is 10p overcosted in AM codex.

Reason: GW wanted to sell their newly introduced Taurox model, so overcosted the Chimera for the AM.. who would buy a Taurox for 50p when you can get a Chimera for 55?

Prediction: Next codex Chimera will go back to 55 and Taurox will go down to 40 or 45 but have some extra rules like fast / assault vehicle.

Rhinos tend to perform very poorly when involved in a fight and as a result most often work as mere transports, whereas a chimera is easily able to cope with infantry and even take out light vehicules. I'm convinced 65 points are worthwhile for a boxes that beats and carry your guys around. It's fontal armor (the most important one) is in addition slightly better.

I'd also like to note how stupidly powerful a Chimera tends to be in Kill Team.

Your comparison is too charitable to the chimera.

The real comparison is the rhino costs 0 points in battle company vs the 65 points for the chimera.

So lets say the marine players is charitable and only takes 6 for 0 points. The mechanized guard player pays 390 points for 6 chimeras. The marine player takes an imperial knight with his extra points.

Orthon wrote:
Your comparison is too charitable to the chimera.

The real comparison is the rhino costs 0 points in battle company vs the 65 points for the chimera.

So lets say the marine players is charitable and only takes 6 for 0 points. The mechanized guard player pays 390 points for 6 chimeras. The marine player takes an imperial knight with his extra points.

you're assuming that the marine player takes a Battle company

Orthon wrote:
Your comparison is too charitable to the chimera.

The real comparison is the rhino costs 0 points in battle company vs the 65 points for the chimera.

So lets say the marine players is charitable and only takes 6 for 0 points. The mechanized guard player pays 390 points for 6 chimeras. The marine player takes an imperial knight with his extra points.

I see what you mean and unfortunatly you are 100% right. Howerver I thought this was about rhinos like taken by one or two and PAID. Cause otherwise, yup totally dicky cheaty OP stuff obviously... GG GW

The Chimera is overcosted, there really isnt an issue so much with the Rhino (aside from getting them for free in some cases). They bumped the cost on the Chimera to push sales of the new Taurox as noted earlier. The Chimera has only ever been a particularly solid unit in one edition ever :(

Rhinos seem to have settled into being 35 point options for over a decade now, across codices, and it seems to work. While they're very cheap, they compete with two very, very good options in Drop Pods and Razorbacks (for loyalists, at least), and they add marginal firepower.

The Chimera was undercosted at 55pts in 5th edition, but of course in the transition to 6th/7th, the addition of hull points made all light vehicles less durable, transports lost some pep in when the units could disembark, and increased firewpower made AV12 less imposing. When the new IG book came out, GW reverted to their bad ways, in doubling down on balancing the previously undercosted (but now not really) Chimera by jacking up the cost while also reducing how many weapons could fire out of the hatch (from five (!) to two).

TL;DR - The Chimera is probably about 10 points overcosted right now, while the Rhino is deliberately aggressively priced.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Chimera is overcosted, there really isnt an issue so much with the Rhino (aside from getting them for free in some cases). They bumped the cost on the Chimera to push sales of the new Taurox as noted earlier. The Chimera has only ever been a particularly solid unit in one edition ever :(

Warhammer 40,000: Kill Team Edition

That's the edition you were referring to, right? I've gotten tons of mileage out of mine in KT.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Chimera is overcosted, there really isnt an issue so much with the Rhino (aside from getting them for free in some cases). They bumped the cost on the Chimera to push sales of the new Taurox as noted earlier. The Chimera has only ever been a particularly solid unit in one edition ever :(

The Taurox is the option that nobody wanted, on so many fronts. It's not a bad little truck for use by backfield units, but the lack of command vehicle (where you can issue orders out of it) hurts it. It's not any faster than the Chimera, although it moves better through terrain. It's got longer range, and a TL-Autocannon is better than a Multi-laser, it's only arguably better than a ML and HB. AV11 is pretty weedy.

I think the problem it runs into, ironically, is the same one as razorbacks: they are better the more there are. For only a bit more than TLHB razorbacks, you get the same front armor, and a better gun (albeit at BS3 Twinlinked). Hell, compare the Taurox to sentinels, and the idea of buying four of them with a 40 man blob, and running the blob separately from 4 light gunboats looks pretty good.

Chimeras get better the more crowded the field is. If their AV 10 sides are blocked, it's a source of very cheap AV 12. Plus, it's got 3 S6 shots on the move. Not bad in 7th.

I think I can see the process. A Rhino is 35 points-let's assume that's fairly priced.

Armor is a wash on Rhino vs. Chimera. AV 11/11/10 is better in some ways than 12/10/10, but worse in others. 0 Points.
Heavy Bolter is easily worth a bit more than a Storm Bolter. 5 Points.
Multi-Laser is probably worth even more than that upgrade. 10 Points.
Lasgun Arrays aren't the best, but they're not that bad either. 5 Points.

And there you go-55 Point Chimera.

That being said, I don't play guard, and from what I've heard, Guard in general are too pricey/not good enough. So while I see the logic behind a 55 Point Chimera, I also understand that in practice, it might not be worth that.