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 Verviedi wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:
I've only had two Finecast models (Illic Nightspear and Belial). Illic came out fine, Belial had a bit of a wonky sword and there's a small missing bit of shoulder pad trim. Nothing terrible, but notably worse than the quality of the metal models. I'm happy I got my Aspect Warriors years ago.

It's still miles ahead of Forge World's resin quality.

For recent army projects, I plan ahead to keep them all plastic.

Just... no. My Forgeworld stuff is usable with minor fixing, the same sort of stuff you'd do with plastic. I've never had a Finecast model where I didn't have to spend an hour fixing weird random finecast bricks.

And I've never had a finecast model that I've had to spend more than 15 minutes on scrapping lines and cutting gates off of(and out of 15 or so models, 1 needed replacement which GW did promptly), whereas of the two things I ordered from FW one had a significant hole in it. Of those models I had one that had anything I needed to use a little green stuff to fill, which still kept him within that 15 minutes. Seems we all have very different experiences.

 Asmodai wrote:
I've only had two Finecast models (Illic Nightspear and Belial). Illic came out fine, Belial had a bit of a wonky sword and there's a small missing bit of shoulder pad trim. Nothing terrible, but notably worse than the quality of the metal models. I'm happy I got my Aspect Warriors years ago.

It's still miles ahead of Forge World's resin quality.

For recent army projects, I plan ahead to keep them all plastic.

My experience doesn't match yours, I'm afraid.

With FW, the worst I've had to do is the Hot/Cold water treatment to straighten bent pieces. Otherwise, it's just cleaning off flashing.

With FineCast, I've have seen ruined faces, guns, and other details that are beyond my hobbying skills to fix (between my and my friends' purchases).

I'll take FW over FineCast any time.

What's the difference between ForgeWorld & FineCast? I thought FineCast was just Games Workshop's name for all of their Citadel resin.

Forgeworld resin is high quality, light grey resin that comes attached to big resin blocks. Finecast is cheap, crappy, brittle resin that comes on cheap, crappy, resin sprues.

 Verviedi wrote:
Forgeworld resin is high quality, light grey resin that comes attached to big resin blocks. Finecast is cheap, crappy, brittle resin that comes on cheap, crappy, resin sprues.

Forge world resin is of very high quality.
Granted it will require some cleaning up and filing from where you cut at times.

I got lucky with my Necron special characters. All three of them were solid casts. That said, I hate working with the stuff and won't be getting any more Finecast models if I can help it (says the man who pre-ordered Slambo).

 Ginjitzu wrote:
What's the difference between ForgeWorld & FineCast? I thought FineCast was just Games Workshop's name for all of their Citadel resin.

I would honestly not be surprised if the colour was the biggest difference ; )

The other obvious difference is the sort of things that we order from these sources. Fine cast is usually all sorts of fiddly stuff. While most FW stuff is either compact marines or bricks with tracks/wheels/wings.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
What's the difference between ForgeWorld & FineCast? I thought FineCast was just Games Workshop's name for all of their Citadel resin.

I would honestly not be surprised if the colour was the biggest difference ; )

The other obvious difference is the sort of things that we order from these sources. Fine cast is usually all sorts of fiddly stuff. While most FW stuff is either compact marines or bricks with tracks/wheels/wings.

They don't have the same rigidity, detail precision or thermal warping point.

There is literally nothing common between those two resins.

I've had Forge World models which looked, felt and behaved just like finecast resin models. Over the years, the resin I've had from Forge World has varied massively; enough to make the idea that there's a "Forge World resin" meaningless.

Early FC models were bad for air bubbles. I honk that was because they were designed with metal casting in mind, not resin. The more recent ones (Games Day Blood Angel captain, Canoness Viridyan and some others) have been fine. I'd much rather clean up a Finecast resin model than a metal one.

Finecast was really only a stopgap while everything got redone into plastic.

 troa wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:
I've only had two Finecast models (Illic Nightspear and Belial). Illic came out fine, Belial had a bit of a wonky sword and there's a small missing bit of shoulder pad trim. Nothing terrible, but notably worse than the quality of the metal models. I'm happy I got my Aspect Warriors years ago.

It's still miles ahead of Forge World's resin quality.

For recent army projects, I plan ahead to keep them all plastic.

Just... no. My Forgeworld stuff is usable with minor fixing, the same sort of stuff you'd do with plastic. I've never had a Finecast model where I didn't have to spend an hour fixing weird random finecast bricks.

And I've never had a finecast model that I've had to spend more than 15 minutes on scrapping lines and cutting gates off of(and out of 15 or so models, 1 needed replacement which GW did promptly), whereas of the two things I ordered from FW one had a significant hole in it. Of those models I had one that had anything I needed to use a little green stuff to fill, which still kept him within that 15 minutes. Seems we all have very different experiences.

Mine matches yours. Big bubbles and thick cast lines in the Forge World stuff that wasn't present in the Finecast.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
What's the difference between ForgeWorld & FineCast? I thought FineCast was just Games Workshop's name for all of their Citadel resin.

Forge World, like most other resin casters, cast their resin in vacuum chambers, to force out the gas bubbles in the liquid resin before it cures. Finecast uses, IIRC, the spin-cast machines that are normally used for metal casting to force resin into the extremities of the mould cavity.

Davor wrote:Complaining about getting free replacements until they get it right? So what is wrong here? Maybe you shouldn't have bought in the first place since it does seem you have done your homework and yet you still complain?

If you know better then why did you buy? After all as you said, Customer Service is great and will keep getting you a replacement until it's done properly. So what is your point?

Since you are informed, you buy or not buy. To buy and still complain, I can't understand. It's just like farting into the wind and complaining it smells. Either don't do it, or accept the consequences of your actions. Knowing you are buying an inferior product speaks more of you than anyone else trying to sell it.

After all they don't need to sell it, you are buying it. This speaks more of you buying it than it does of them for selling it. Don't blame people for selling it, blame the person who bought it knowing better otherwise.

*edit*

GW does have a 100% money back guarantee as well. So if you really are not that happy, return it and get your money back.

Having a good method for fixing an issue doesn't really address that issue being there in the first place. Let's say you go to a restaurant and they screw up your order. And they do it again and again repeatedly. It doesn't really matter if they eventually get it right, it matters that they can't do it right in the first place, and that they think "meh, we'll get it right one of these days" is an acceptable policy. I work in a manufacturing industry, as does my dad, who specifically works in quality. That attitude is beyond unacceptable in any other company. You do not just shove a product out the door if you know (and GW did) that it's garbage, no matter how reasonable a return policy you have (and given this is the era of online shopping, this returns and replacement cycle could take weeks to go through). If GW had any pretense of caring about customers, we wouldn't be having this discussion because the hideously flawed first wave of finecast would never have been released, they should have held off on it until they got it right (and apparently they still haven't).

I only have one finecast model and it's a typhus. I also have a metal one and I must say that I find the metal one superior in all aspects. Detail, weight, cleanliness of cast, etc. only bought the finecast one because I was living in jersey and getting back into the game and my metal one was 3000 miles away in storage. Not saying the finecast one was bad quality or anything, just 100% prefer the metal one.

I've had 3 FC models and they all sucked. Even after manually going through and trying to pick the best one off the shelf.

Often the bubbles are small but in really inconvenient places, like my Lord Commissar's nose. The one I bought more recently had vents all over the bloody place (but still managed to have bubbles).

Sometimes I wonder if the people who say FC is good are genuinely very lucky and getting good models, have poor eyesight/standards and can't see the same flaws I'm seeing or just don't care if they spend a long time cleaning up flaws. I remember a thread recently that someone posted a picture of Arjac in FC and from a distance he looked fine, but then you zoom in and see tiny bubbles all over the bastard and vents put in places that would require resculpting to fix properly.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Forge World, like most other resin casters, cast their resin in vacuum chambers, to force out the gas bubbles in the liquid resin before it cures. Finecast uses, IIRC, the spin-cast machines that are normally used for metal casting to force resin into the extremities of the mould cavity.

Ah, so Finecast is resin misused in a manufacturing process for which it is unsuitable, whereas Forge World use (possibly) the same resin in a more suitable process, meaning Finecast is just a stop gap to reuse old moulds with a much cheaper material? I think I understand more clearly now.

I know it's getting a bit off topic, but this thread brings to my mind two more questions:

How do you guys know so much about Games Workshop's manufacturing practices?

How does plastic compare to resin as a material when both are used correctly?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Forge World, like most other resin casters, cast their resin in vacuum chambers, to force out the gas bubbles in the liquid resin before it cures. Finecast uses, IIRC, the spin-cast machines that are normally used for metal casting to force resin into the extremities of the mould cavity.

Ah, so Finecast is resin misused in a manufacturing process for which it is unsuitable, whereas Forge World use (possibly) the same resin in a more suitable process, meaning Finecast is just a stop gap to reuse old moulds with a much cheaper material? I think I understand more clearly now.

I know it's getting a bit off topic, but this thread brings to my mind two more questions:

How do you guys know so much about Games Workshop's manufacturing practices?

How does plastic compare to resin as a material when both are used correctly?

Because I know people who do this kind of stuff for a living? Because I've seen the material safety data sheet of both the resin from Forgeworld, the plastic GW uses, and the Finecrap... I mean Failcast... errr... that other stuff GW uses? Under US law, any material sold in the US must have a Material Safety Data Sheet filed with the US Department of Labor Occupational Health and Safety Administration, and you can request a copy under US Federal Law for free.

On the MSDS, it lists all the ingredients at the chemical level, the intended use, how it's handled, stored, and manufactured, and used in production, as well as any health and safety risks. I caution you on the resin one from Forge World- it all but says you will die of cancer if you mishandle this product.

As to how the FW Resin and Finecrap...Failcast... that stuff compares- similar ingredients, different proportions and "recipes", as well as manufacturing. They are both classified as "plastic-resin". Interestingly enough, the FW resin has a lot of health warnings in the finished product, while the GW stuff has a ton of health warnings about handling and using it- as in, "death or serious injury could result in the mishandling of the ingredients". The GW Stuff is pretty damn toxic and dangerous while it's being mixed and made, but is inert once it cures.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Forge World, like most other resin casters, cast their resin in vacuum chambers, to force out the gas bubbles in the liquid resin before it cures. Finecast uses, IIRC, the spin-cast machines that are normally used for metal casting to force resin into the extremities of the mould cavity.

Ah, so Finecast is resin misused in a manufacturing process for which it is unsuitable, whereas Forge World use (possibly) the same resin in a more suitable process, meaning Finecast is just a stop gap to reuse old moulds with a much cheaper material? I think I understand more clearly now.

I know it's getting a bit off topic, but this thread brings to my mind two more questions:

How do you guys know so much about Games Workshop's manufacturing practices?

How does plastic compare to resin as a material when both are used correctly?

There's not just one plastic and not just one resin... so it's a lot more complicated than that.

GW's very high definition latest plastic sculpts are pretty much the epitome of what you can do with plastic, it looks really friggin good, but it's still large scale manufacturing and too expensive for short runs.

For Resin, FW models typically have a higher level of detail than even the best plastics, and other resins push that even further.

When used correctly, resin results in near-perfect casts without mold slippage, warping, bubbles or flash and a shrinkage so low it's not even noticeable.


FW has an ultra-low shrinkage ratio resin, which also has excellent physical properties, it will break faster than plastic but is much more resilient than most resins out there.
Their process half-sucks because they do get mold slip now and then, they have terrible warping, they sometimes have a few bubbles and always a ton of dirty mold release agent which requires thorough cleaning and huge Resin gates which, being the thickest part, often end up with your usable part being broken since it was thinner (harharhar) (other casters will remove the casts from the sprue and even clean the casts for you sometimes).

They still have one of the nicest resins on the market, and apparently a great customer service to compensate for their middle-of-the-road casting process quality.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I've had 3 FC models and they all sucked. Even after manually going through and trying to pick the best one off the shelf.

Often the bubbles are small but in really inconvenient places, like my Lord Commissar's nose. The one I bought more recently had vents all over the bloody place (but still managed to have bubbles).

Sometimes I wonder if the people who say FC is good are genuinely very lucky and getting good models, have poor eyesight/standards and can't see the same flaws I'm seeing or just don't care if they spend a long time cleaning up flaws. I remember a thread recently that someone posted a picture of Arjac in FC and from a distance he looked fine, but then you zoom in and see tiny bubbles all over the bastard and vents put in places that would require resculpting to fix properly.

It's a little of column A, a little of column B.

I've been building the resin/Finecast stuff for a friend, since he works long hours and I don't, and it's been fairly good with a bit of elbow grease needed...but when it goes bad? It goes bad. We had to get a replacement Fire Dragon for him because one had a very visible mold shift that made me wonder how it got past QC.
The rest of the box was virtually perfect with no work, just the standard cleanup of mold lines that you should be doing on any/all materials.

I've also noticed that sometimes people pick up stuff, don't work on it for ages, and then don't realize they never cleaned it properly.

In my experience, plastic >> metal >> resin.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
...How does plastic compare to resin as a material when both are used correctly?...

Chemically the difference between the two terms is mostly academic. When we're talking about wargaming models 'plastic' is a more elastic material with a higher melting point that tends to get shipped on sprues, and is made via an expensive process that entirely purges bubbles from the mould, whereas 'resin' is more brittle but softens at high temperatures (so you can straighten bent parts), is shipped loose/clipped off sprues, and is made via a cheaper process that sometimes leaves behind bubbles.

'Plastic' is much more expensive to get set up to make, so very few game companies make it; it's also more reliable and more consistent, but if there is an error and a part warps during production it's much harder to fix (the Falcon kit is particularly bad). 'Resin' is cheaper to make and holds detail just as well, but it's more brittle and thus more easily damaged, and it is harder to work with (as anyone who's ever pulled chunks out of the rim of a 30k Terminator's shoulder pad while cutting flash off can attest).

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
...How does plastic compare to resin as a material when both are used correctly?...

Chemically the difference between the two terms is mostly academic. When we're talking about wargaming models 'plastic' is a more elastic material with a higher melting point that tends to get shipped on sprues, and is made via an expensive process that entirely purges bubbles from the mould, whereas 'resin' is more brittle but softens at high temperatures (so you can straighten bent parts), is shipped loose/clipped off sprues, and is made via a cheaper process that sometimes leaves behind bubbles.

'Plastic' is much more expensive to get set up to make, so very few game companies make it; it's also more reliable and more consistent, but if there is an error and a part warps during production it's much harder to fix (the Falcon kit is particularly bad). 'Resin' is cheaper to make and holds detail just as well, but it's more brittle and thus more easily damaged, and it is harder to work with (as anyone who's ever pulled chunks out of the rim of a 30k Terminator's shoulder pad while cutting flash off can attest).

I'd like to see styrene hold as much detail as FW resin ... never happened so far.

I only bought one finecast model. The now discontinued Warboss with attack squigh and kombi skorcha. I've been focusing on troops, elites and vehicles but grabbed the Warboss as a last chance. Got lucky I guess considering the stories. His earing is missing the dangling toof and his kombi weapon was bent into a curve. Easy to fix but just with that I found myself glad that orks are blessed with mostly plastic models (or easily replaced by kit bashed plastic models - ie tankbustas ). I do have to get some finecast characters soon though..unavoidable. I hope I don't gan a story of my own. At some point I will try forge world because I really want the Warboss on the bike as well as the Nob bikers. Might pick up a few burna conversion kits as well.

morgoth wrote:

I'd like to see styrene hold as much detail as FW resin ... never happened so far.

Styrene?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

morgoth wrote:

I'd like to see styrene hold as much detail as FW resin ... never happened so far.

Styrene?

Regular GW plastic, polystyrene ... not a really great material in general but not bad at holding detail I guess.

Maybe I'll just collect Lego instead: http://www.brothers-brick.com/tag/warhammer/

 Battlegrinder wrote:

Davor wrote:Complaining about getting free replacements until they get it right? So what is wrong here? Maybe you shouldn't have bought in the first place since it does seem you have done your homework and yet you still complain?

If you know better then why did you buy? After all as you said, Customer Service is great and will keep getting you a replacement until it's done properly. So what is your point?

Since you are informed, you buy or not buy. To buy and still complain, I can't understand. It's just like farting into the wind and complaining it smells. Either don't do it, or accept the consequences of your actions. Knowing you are buying an inferior product speaks more of you than anyone else trying to sell it.

After all they don't need to sell it, you are buying it. This speaks more of you buying it than it does of them for selling it. Don't blame people for selling it, blame the person who bought it knowing better otherwise.

*edit*

GW does have a 100% money back guarantee as well. So if you really are not that happy, return it and get your money back.

Having a good method for fixing an issue doesn't really address that issue being there in the first place. Let's say you go to a restaurant and they screw up your order. And they do it again and again repeatedly. It doesn't really matter if they eventually get it right, it matters that they can't do it right in the first place, and that they think "meh, we'll get it right one of these days" is an acceptable policy. I work in a manufacturing industry, as does my dad, who specifically works in quality. That attitude is beyond unacceptable in any other company. You do not just shove a product out the door if you know (and GW did) that it's garbage, no matter how reasonable a return policy you have (and given this is the era of online shopping, this returns and replacement cycle could take weeks to go through). If GW had any pretense of caring about customers, we wouldn't be having this discussion because the hideously flawed first wave of finecast would never have been released, they should have held off on it until they got it right (and apparently they still haven't).

Well said and I see your point. Thing is using your example, I have done the research and know that the restaurant is bad at making dinner, why would I go there in the first place? I should have known better. So how can someone complain about something when they know before buying that it can be bad? That is my point. The Original Poster knew before buying and is still complaining. It's one thing going to the restaurant or buying Finecast for the first time and not knowing but it's a different story knowing before hand and still ordering from that restaurant or buying Finecast and still going on a rant or tantrum about it.

Other than that I agree you, the attitude is beyond unacceptable. Reminds me of a story I was told from a Quality Assurance person over 20 years ago and still sticks to me this day. I can't remember the tire company but something like Goodyear would make tires. The tires that had flaws were still being sold but cheaper because they were only "cosmetic" and didn't effect quality. The company was wondering why they were making selling so many number of tires, but not making the money. It was found the "cosmetic cheaper tires" were the cause of this. So they put a stop to this. Doesn't matter how small the "blemish" is, the tire is recycled back only perfect tires were being sold at full price.

It seems GW has a differently philosophy. Just give a new product till a customer is happy since it's only a few customers who complain compared to the whole. So it's cheaper for them this way. Produce crap and keep the few who complain happy.

Sadly because of this, and GW rules writing, I can't see Games Workshop as a premium company anymore.

Davor wrote:

Well said and I see your point. Thing is using your example, I have done the research and know that the restaurant is bad at making dinner, why would I go there in the first place? I should have known better. So how can someone complain about something when they know before buying that it can be bad? That is my point. The Original Poster knew before buying and is still complaining. It's one thing going to the restaurant or buying Finecast for the first time and not knowing but it's a different story knowing before hand and still ordering from that restaurant or buying Finecast and still going on a rant or tantrum about it.

Because the other option might be to spend even more money on a metal model, or not have it at all. Ineleastic demand and exclusivity do funny things to how the market works. Try asking someone why they went with Comcast for their cable in spite of how awful they are.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
What's the difference between ForgeWorld & FineCast? I thought FineCast was just Games Workshop's name for all of their Citadel resin.

Forge World, like most other resin casters, cast their resin in vacuum chambers, to force out the gas bubbles in the liquid resin before it cures. Finecast uses, IIRC, the spin-cast machines that are normally used for metal casting to force resin into the extremities of the mould cavity.

I don't think finecast is spun cast. Look at how the sprues/vents/runners are laid out, it has the hallmarks of being injection moulded.

You could probably spin cast resin and make it work if you designed the mould properly. The thing about resin is the bubbles need somewhere to go, with spin casting the bubbles would be pushed toward the centre of the spinning disk due to centrifugal force being much higher on the resin than it is on the bubbles. In vacuum casting the bubbles are pulled out by the vacuum.

I think the reason FC has bubble issues is because it's injected and when you inject it, there's nowhere for the bubbles to go. So the only way it can "work" is if the resin is bubble free before being injected and remains bubble free as it distributes through the mould and I reckon GW gambled that they could make bubble-free resin when reality proved they couldn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:
It's one thing going to the restaurant or buying Finecast for the first time and not knowing but it's a different story knowing before hand and still ordering from that restaurant or buying Finecast and still going on a rant or tantrum about it.

It's not really the same because finecast is the only option if you want GW miniatures, whereas there's usually options when it comes to restaurants.

Your analogy might be apt if the only italian (for example) restaurant within 100 miles sucked. You want italian, so you go to the sucky italian restaurant, but still complain that it sucks. You could go to a chinese restaurant instead, but you don't like chinese, so your only option is the crappy italian restaurant.

Even then it's a bad analogy because you can just make italian at home where as most people are not capable of sculpting a decent quality model, also there's no real way for an italian restaurant to lock you in to buying from there restaurant like GW can lock you in to buying from specific ranges.

So yeah, bad analogy is bad.

I had a Warpsmith model and it was awful. Details were good and there was nor much fixing. But those tentacles were so weak that they snapped all time. Plastic may be little more stronger than resin.

 Draco wrote:
I had a Warpsmith model and it was awful. Details were good and there was nor much fixing. But those tentacles were so weak that they snapped all time. Plastic may be little more stronger than resin.

It depends on the resin, finecast is one of the more brittle types of resins. I've had tentacled models from other manufacturers that are fine, they have enough flex not to break.