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 Zywus wrote:
But they are on the payroll though, in that they apparently receive compensation in the form of goods.

At a quick glance, the whole situation might sound ludicrous. "Obviously signing up to ref a few games of magic is not the same as a 9-5 job in the factories".

But look a bit closer at the legalities, and it's not so clear cut.

And that, I guess is the shtick of a supposed lawsuit. It is clear cut, and in looking over the program, its pretty cut and dried as to the down in the weeds issue. Unless I am missing something not written or discussed in the website, THAT stuff given is part in parcel of the compensation of "Volunteering".

Much the same as other Rep programs from other companies, this one, as well has obviously grown too big for its own good. On personal opinion, THIS has also been one of the biggest hang ups on companies representation systems. Be it the old school GW Freebooter program, to the now famous Privateer system that PP has now given up the ghost on.

I have seen this almost since the inception of the "Volunteer" system from Star Trek, to GW, to Bolt Action, to My infamous run as Mongoose's powder monkey, to the current situation that we have today with this one. GAME companies themselves have a pretty open base to work from, and in the same token, you have self appointed "Judges" who then go on to push the envelope on the system, trying to cheese even more free lickies and chewies out of the gig.

The system of being a rep in as itself should be sufficient, but then to go on and try to make it a full time gig, people are now expecting free health care, a retirement plan, and weekends off- out of a volunteer program to promote a game, sufficiently compensated with a couple of figures, cards, pins, or whatever.

All this "Lawsuit" is going to do is to mess up the spirit of the system, and end up killing even more of the metagaming then is already living on a fingernail of life in the grand scheme.

Bad enough that tabletop/ gaming is competing with the online market, and jacking up the price range- now we get stuff like this to add more fuel and drive costs up even more...

Don't forget, lawsuits like this are the wellspring of many a law securing worker's rights.

So successful or not, as a dirty lefty socialist, I'm not sure anyone can label it frivolous with a straight face

I'm really not seeing how this is doom and gloom for gaming forever.

So they just make a new contract explicitly laying out that judges get paid in cards, judges sign or they don't. Boo hoo now they get lunch breaks, I'm sure the MtG scene will never recover.

The reason it is complex and important is because federal law prohibits volunteer labor for profit employers. "Under the FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act), employees may not volunteer services to for-profit private sector employers. Simply calling someone a "volunteer" will not shield an employer from its FLSA obligation to pay the required wages if that individual performs work that benefits the for-profit organization."

There is the law to protect people from being exploited and then beyond that, there is IRS/Taxes, because if someone is getting compensated even if it is product then the IRS does not get their cut. So between the mix of state and federal factor in however there are usually 6 factors that the law uses to determine if someone is considered an employee or independent contractor (in this case volunteer). According to the Labor Deapartment, no one factor controls the identification that someone is an employee or contractor. In other words just because 1 and 6 are true, that doesn't necessarily mean it is an employee. However each "yes" to each question increases the chances that it is an employee relationship and not an independent contractor.

Is the work an intergral part of the employer's business?

Does the worker lack managerial skills to impact the opportunity for profit or less?

Does the work lack "skin" (an opportunity for profit or loss) in the business relationship?

Does the work robotically follow orders (as opposed to exercising independent thought, judgement and initiative)?

Is the relationship between the worker and the employer permanent or indefinite?

Does the business excercise a lot of control over the worker?

Now the IRS has a 20 Factor Test.

Level of instruction. If the company directs when, where, and how work is done, this control indicates a possible employment relationship.

Amount of training. Requesting workers to undergo company-provided training suggests an employment relationship since the company is directing the methods by which work is accomplished.

Degree of business integration. Workers whose services are integrated into business operations or significantly affect business success are likely to be considered employees.

Extent of personal services. Companies that insist on a particular person performing the work assert a degree of control that suggests an employment relationship. In contrast, independent contractors typically are free to assign work to anyone.

Control of assistants. If a company hires, supervises, and pays a worker's assistants, this control indicates a possible employment relationship. If the worker retains control over hiring, supervising, and paying helpers, this arrangement suggests an independent contractor relationship.

Continuity of relationship. A continuous relationship between a company and a worker indicates a possible employment relationship. However, an independent
contractor arrangement can involve an ongoing relationship for multiple, sequential projects.

Flexibility of schedule. People whose hours or days of work are dictated by a company are apt to qualify as its employees.

Demands for full-time work. Full-time work gives a company control over most of a person's time, which supports a finding of an employment relationship.

Need for on-site services. Requiring someone to work on company premises—particularly if the work can be performed elsewhere—indicates a possible employment relationship.

Sequence of work. If a company requires work to be performed in specific order or sequence, this control suggests an employment relationship.

Requirements for reports. If a worker regularly must provide written or oral reports on the status of a project, this arrangement indicates a possible employment relationship.

Method of payment. Hourly, weekly, or monthly pay schedules are characteristic of employment relationships, unless the payments simply are a convenient way of distributing a lump-sum fee. Payment on commission or project completion is more characteristic of independent contractor relationships.

Payment of business or travel expenses. Independent contractors typically bear the cost of travel or business expenses, and most contractors set their fees high enough to cover these costs. Direct reimbursement of travel and other business costs by a company suggests an employment relationship.

Provision of tools and materials. Workers who perform most of their work using company-provided equipment, tools, and materials are more likely to be considered employees. Work largely done using independently obtained supplies or tools supports an independent contractor finding.

Investment in facilities. Independent contractors typically invest in and maintain their own work facilities. In contrast, most employees rely on their employer to provide work facilities.

Realization of profit or loss. Workers who receive predetermined earnings and have little chance to realize significant profit or loss through their work generally are employees.

Work for multiple companies. People who simultaneously provide services for several unrelated companies are likely to qualify as independent contractors.

Availability to public. If a worker regularly makes services available to the general public, this supports an independent contractor determination.

Control over discharge. A company's unilateral right to discharge a worker suggests an employment relationship. In contrast, a company's ability to terminate independent contractor relationships generally depends on contract terms.

Right of termination. Most employees unilaterally can terminate their work for a company without liability. Independent contractors cannot terminate services without liability, except as allowed under their contracts.

To be fair as someone who has worked these events as well as conventions, I can understand the reasoning. There are some long hours that are usually "scheduled and required to work" these events, they typically are 10-12 hours shifts with a lunch and sometimes a break if any. Each event can be different depending on venue as well. On one hand I see it as a choice, they send out a call and offer compensation and people accept or don't. On the flipside it can be seen as exploitation because many people get into the hype, then never do an event again because of the work and let's be honest and real... they can afford employees and/or better compensation but they really do the minimum they can get away with.

 ScarletRose wrote:
I'm really not seeing how this is doom and gloom for gaming forever.

So they just make a new contract explicitly laying out that judges get paid in cards, judges sign or they don't. Boo hoo now they get lunch breaks, I'm sure the MtG scene will never recover.

The thing is that MTG cards are priced based on a variety of factors that are out of WOTC's control, and there are different levels of judge (basically ranking) which have traditionally received different judge promos. I've made jokes in the past about WOTC printing money, but the cards accused of being printed money tend to be high-demand low-supply printings that are relatively stable. But there are a lot of low-level judges, most of whom sell their promos sooner or later. WOTC can either "pay" the low-level judges with a relatively low-demand reprint and pay them almost nothing, or pay them with a high-demand reprint and mess up the card's value while paying them somewhat more. You can pay the high-level judges with foil alt-art chase mythic from a set out of print and it works fine because they're so rare, but the low level judges are where payment with cards gets confusing. One could print many high-demand cards and give one of them out at random to each judge to deal with the inflation of the card's supply, but that results in judges feeling cheated because they got a card that isn't worth as much as another. In addition the value of card staples in standard and modern (two of the MTG formats) can fluctuate dramatically as the meta shifts (or Travis Woo needs to unload some stock for ChannelFireball), making trying to pay the judges a certain amount with cards difficult, and the prices of many modern and legacy staples are only stable due to their limited supply, which means that this is even less of a stable source of money.

Or they could just rehire Rebecca Guay (and Phil+Kaja Foglio ), but only have them draw art for judge promos . (Context for people who aren't too familiar with MTG: they're both artists with very distinctive, and in Guay's case very popular, art styles that used to do card art but no longer do.)

100% excellence in posting.

I can also see how that the issue can honestly become a landmine to bring on a lawsuit with this information. It really does look like the programs have grown well past the point of general local support.

On this end, with your added insight, it is a little more complicated in adding the issue of price/ magic cards.... I am to take it then that volunteering for a card game is a little more involved then getting a rep kit, and playing some games with a PP shirt on, as you put together a local event and cultivate a stable local game scene for whatever game you are supporting.

Am I to understand that these workers count as independent consultant level of support for the card games, as opposed to tabletop, or are they all lumped in together?

 Grot 6 wrote:
100% excellence in posting.

I can also see how that the issue can honestly become a landmine to bring on a lawsuit with this information. It really does look like the programs have grown well past the point of general local support.

On this end, with your added insight, it is a little more complicated in adding the issue of price/ magic cards.... I am to take it then that volunteering for a card game is a little more involved then getting a rep kit, and playing some games with a PP shirt on, as you put together a local event and cultivate a stable local game scene for whatever game you are supporting.

Am I to understand that these workers count as independent consultant level of support for the card games, as opposed to tabletop, or are they all lumped in together?

Perhaps it is.

I think the issue is that it could set a precedent for this sort of thing. Which from what my arm-chair lawyer-learnin has found, often puts most cases that are 'similar' in a position of following the original verdict. So how this goes, could set the tone despite the two sorts of 'volun-ployees' having different sets of guidelines or rewards for being a part of the program.

Of course, I could have it all backwards too.

Dark Severance wrote:The reason it is complex and important is because federal law prohibits volunteer labor for profit employers. "Under the FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act), employees may not volunteer services to for-profit private sector employers. Simply calling someone a "volunteer" will not shield an employer from its FLSA obligation to pay the required wages if that individual performs work that benefits the for-profit organization."

There is the law to protect people from being exploited and then beyond that, there is IRS/Taxes, because if someone is getting compensated even if it is product then the IRS does not get their cut.

At one of my first jobs while in high school, the employer at the job site came up to me after my 8 hours and and told me my shift was done and I was all like "cool, thanks" as we were pretty engrossed in the work. A minute later his foreman came up and was like "hey if you want to be considered for a raise in the future, it would be cool for you to volunteer and stay here and help us all finish the job." I got a better job a few weeks later but a friend of mine stayed there and apparently they did it all the time as a means to avoid paying anything at all for overtime.

I can definitely see why you'd want laws that require a defined employer employee relationship.

 Grot 6 wrote:
On this end, with your added insight, it is a little more complicated in adding the issue of price/ magic cards.... I am to take it then that volunteering for a card game is a little more involved then getting a rep kit, and playing some games with a PP shirt on, as you put together a local event and cultivate a stable local game scene for whatever game you are supporting.

Am I to understand that these workers count as independent consultant level of support for the card games, as opposed to tabletop, or are they all lumped in together?

It can vary. Minimum requirement is a level 1 test and some involvement locally to usually work at a regional level. There are some professional companies that outsource volunteers (at least for Magic). Level 2 and higher judges become more valuable because of experience but honestly a lot of people get burned out before they make it there. Turnover tends to be really high. Regional levels are where the main concerns and issues are.

The lawsuit and outcome should really have no impact on a "local" level for game store volunteers. The main reason is there isn't a measurable amount of comp but the biggest is, usually the TO or local person runs everything. That means they don't answer to anyone except for the rules to run an event, they are in control and thus a less murky area for an "employee" vs "volunteer" basis.

The concern is conventions and other regional level events. Even so much as local cons could be effected. I run events for various companies, they usually get me a badge and I have a rough setup of what they want focused. I tend to get items that supports the event, plus comps me a bit, but if the water becomes murky then we loose on the that support. Then larger events like Origins Game Fair, GenCon, etc where most of the companies use volunteers to staff booths, run demos and tournaments it can mean that no longer happens if these people have to be considered "employees". For those events most things are outside the volunteer control, they work a schedule, do lunches, breaks when told and work until released. So it is can be considered more employee relationship. If these companies now have to pay volunteers, file tax forms and other things then that can change the dynamic of the relationship as well as the landscape at cons.

 Dark Severance wrote:
The reason it is complex and important is because federal law prohibits volunteer labor for profit employers.

WotC simply needs to reclassify Judges as (unpaid) Interns, and all will be well...

 Dark Severance wrote:
The concern is conventions and other regional level events. Even so much as local cons could be effected. I run events for various companies, they usually get me a badge and I have a rough setup of what they want focused. I tend to get items that supports the event, plus comps me a bit, but if the water becomes murky then we loose on the that support. Then larger events like Origins Game Fair, GenCon, etc where most of the companies use volunteers to staff booths, run demos and tournaments it can mean that no longer happens if these people have to be considered "employees". For those events most things are outside the volunteer control, they work a schedule, do lunches, breaks when told and work until released. So it is can be considered more employee relationship. If these companies now have to pay volunteers, file tax forms and other things then that can change the dynamic of the relationship as well as the landscape at cons.

I was thinking about convention roadies. I think you can make more of a bona fide case that they're independent contractors. Would the highly intermittent and short term nature play in? In my experience with a small company, the expectation was to help with set up and tear down, and then after that we all took turns manning the booth. I wouldn't call it setting my own schedule, but it also wasn't particularly strict when and where I had to be. If you really looked at the number of hours I "worked" over a five day con, it was rarely more than six hours a day.

Practically, the people that help those companies with cons are more likely to be friends or part time employees that are looking to get a free con trip. They're just not going to rock the boat.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Dark Severance wrote:
The reason it is complex and important is because federal law prohibits volunteer labor for profit employers.

WotC simply needs to reclassify Judges as (unpaid) Interns, and all will be well...

That is dependant on the State because of how the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) governs how interns must be compensated under federal law. That's not to say employers can never have unpaid interns; they're just not very common, at least legally.

The vast majority of interns working at for-profit organizations must be paid at least the minimum wage and any applicable overtime. Technically, paid interns are temporary employees and treated virtually the same as regular employees with respect to labor law. But you may legally hire an unpaid intern if the following six criteria are met:

The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment.

The experience is for the benefit of the intern.

The intern does not displace regular employees but works under close supervision of existing staff.

The employer providing the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded.

There is no guarantee of a job at the conclusion of the internship.

Both parties understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the internship.

 Polonius wrote:
I was thinking about convention roadies. I think you can make more of a bona fide case that they're independent contractors. Would the highly intermittent and short term nature play in? In my experience with a small company, the expectation was to help with set up and tear down, and then after that we all took turns manning the booth. I wouldn't call it setting my own schedule, but it also wasn't particularly strict when and where I had to be. If you really looked at the number of hours I "worked" over a five day con, it was rarely more than six hours a day.

Practically, the people that help those companies with cons are more likely to be friends or part time employees that are looking to get a free con trip. They're just not going to rock the boat.

I have to say I've worked pretty hard to build a reputation as person who can self-manage, understands the roles that need to be filled, as well as overall just a hard worker at this conventions. It is one of the thing that allows me to go to them and usually get paid hotel as well as airfare (which tends to be rarer), on top of comp and stipends. I'm less stingy with comp though (but that is just me) only because I also tend to get other product just simply for being a demo person for these various companies. I can say that I've never worked less than six hours a day though :( However that is more something I've taken upon myself. At GenCon I tend to run Tournaments so that means I'm doing setup, takedown as well as there for the majority of the time. I do have a bit more freedom in terms of getting away here and there but that is because my day is at least 12 hours, so lunch may be a quick bite but browse around the floor. At Origins I tend to work the floor, so my hours are limited by Exhibit Hours but there is extra time into that. We do setup, takedown but also we've run Publisher Dating Events and other "industry events", less work/work but still a lot of time on feet.

Out of the companies that I do work, I could probably accurately estimate that about 75% are of the type that do only work 6-8 hours (Exhibit Hours), get a lunch and break. Some of them get hotel comp while other groups of volunteers have worked together. The other 25% though definitely put in above and beyond. Part of that is some are trying to "impress" because they might have a game in the pipeline, looking for industry help or input, or looking to become an employee. I know quite a few volunteers that moved to official employee status. There are also a good portion of that 25% that think if they say "no" or "rock the boat" they won't be accepted to work at one of these events again... and there is some truth to that. We have list of some volunteers that overall aren't allowed because of horrible work ethic even as a volunteer. I will say women volunteers are on a higher rate, as there is a smaller amount of them so when they split hotels there are usually openings for women volunteers since they don't room them with men.

I'm not going to comment on the merits of the case because I have not read it, but the first thing that jumps to my mind is "be careful what you wish for you just might get it".

Is this why Privateer press is stopping their Pressgangers?

Privateer Press cited redundancy in their axing of the Press Gang- basically they say that they've started supporting the retailers directly (with event packs and such).

They may also have feared a lawsuit from the Press Gang- although I believe they have a lot less control over the Press Gang than Wizards has over the Judges, so it probably wouldn't look the same.



Quick note- These laws governing volunteer work NEED to exist. Imagine what Hollywood would look like if they could hire actors as volunteers (they have guilds because actors would gladly work for less than living wages for the opportunity to get their face out there).


And there's something fishy about hiring volunteers to make a corporation a profit. From what I've read, the law distinguishes between how exactly the work environment is controlled- and Wizards seems to control the conditions of employment very closely, which is treading into employer relationships.

There's actually nothing illegal about a company supporting enthusiastic gamers who want to spread the word. As I understand it, the Judges in question want to force Wizards to create a separate non-profit entity that runs the Magic events (non profits are allowed to employ volunteers in a way that for profit corporations are forbidden). They want things to keep going, but they don't want Wizards to micromanage them.

The response that WIzards issued was not that Judges are volunteers- because they aren't allowed to employ volunteer labor.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:

-The cards Judges got can easily be called of nominal value in a legal sense- the only reason that they're more valuable on the secondary market is due to the rarity (which is the point, right?).

But honestly, if they had a retail price, it would be pretty cheap.

The problem with that is I'm pretty sure they can't, especially when the IRS becomes officially 'aware' of a situation as is going to happen here with the court case,

I think this paraphrase (actually relating to their own art being given/donated by an artist even when the materials used are of negligible value not magic cards says it best)

"Now for the sticky part:

How do you determine the fair market value of the art you're gifting or donating?

According to Internal Revenue Code, fair market value is defined as "the price that property would sell for on the open market. It is the price that would be agreed on between a willing buyer and a willing seller, with neither being required to act, and both having reasonable knowledge of the relevant facts." With art, dollar amounts are not written in stone. Nevertheless, how you interpret or determine prices may well be scrutinized by the IRS which means that you have to be careful in stating dollar values."

so once cards that have pretty decent secondary market value become part of a 'salary' people who volunteer as judges and are working so have other taxable income may well have to think carefully about whether to declare them too

Good point- but if this item were available on the free market, it would sell for a LOT less than on the secondary market. Because Wizards of the Coast sell all magic cards for the same price, it becomes easy to calculate what the retail price would be. Just determine what it would have cost for a consumer in a random pack, and that's the price of the card.

Wizards of the Coast sell Magic the Gathering cards for around 30 cents apiece (a bit less form my calculations). It is hard to argue that this isn't the price that they would have, were they to be sold on the open market by Wizards. If they charge more for foil cards, they'd need to account for that accordingly, but they might also consider any employee discounts they offer.

The IRS would accept these prices, because that is the appropriate way to calculate them. The IRS would lose a court battle to claim that they had higher value than what their employer would clearly sell them for- especially since Wizards makes them for almost nothing.


And there is simply no way that the taxes on these cards would come anywhere close to the back wages and overtime that the judges claim they are owed, even if they did start claiming that they were worth the secondary market value.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
There's actually nothing illegal about a company supporting enthusiastic gamers who want to spread the word. As I understand it, the Judges in question want to force Wizards to create a separate non-profit entity that runs the Magic events (non profits are allowed to employ volunteers in a way that for profit corporations are forbidden).

The response that WIzards issued was not that Judges are volunteers- because they aren't allowed to employ volunteer labor.

That's a fascinating distinction.

Wizards has gone the other direction though and now all their premier level events will be run by one of the large online retailers, Channel Fireball.

I can get pretty anti-commercial, so I really like the idea of organized play for games being moved away from the product sales focus and towards a non profit approach. Like the many local and regional societies for all sorts of other hobbies, art forms and cultural expressions. An international alliance of national collectible card game appreciation societies sounds pretty good to me. They can run Magic and Pokemon and Yugioh and so forth.

I'd also like to see North American miniature gaming communities stop being tied so closely to retailers. There might be a cultural barrier there though where the profit motive of the retailers drives them to sell people on the idea of being part of the gaming community at a given store.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Privateer Press cited redundancy in their axing of the Press Gang- basically they say that they've started supporting the retailers directly (with event packs and such).

They may also have feared a lawsuit from the Press Gang- although I believe they have a lot less control over the Press Gang than Wizards has over the Judges, so it probably wouldn't look the same.



Quick note- These laws governing volunteer work NEED to exist. Imagine what Hollywood would look like if they could hire actors as volunteers (they have guilds because actors would gladly work for less than living wages for the opportunity to get their face out there).

The sad thing is that is happening in Hollywood every day! Actors, crew members etc.. dreaming of the glamorous life and the "next big project" are taking sub minimum wage jobs and the employers are getting away with it. The only difference is that a group hasn't really stuck together to hit those types of producers where it hurts.

This is a sticky situation, but seems like the judges have the right end of this.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Good point- but if this item were available on the free market, it would sell for a LOT less than on the secondary market. Because Wizards of the Coast sell all magic cards for the same price, it becomes easy to calculate what the retail price would be. Just determine what it would have cost for a consumer in a random pack, and that's the price of the card.

Wizards of the Coast sell Magic the Gathering cards for around 30 cents apiece (a bit less form my calculations). It is hard to argue that this isn't the price that they would have, were they to be sold on the open market by Wizards. If they charge more for foil cards, they'd need to account for that accordingly, but they might also consider any employee discounts they offer.

The IRS would accept these prices, because that is the appropriate way to calculate them. The IRS would lose a court battle to claim that they had higher value than what their employer would clearly sell them for- especially since Wizards makes them for almost nothing.

That's flawed reasoning, because these are NOT the same mass production run items. GM sells a huge number of Chevys at a mass market price point, and a smaller number of Cadillacs at a higher, exclusive price point. They don't go into bulk distribution, they are one-off deliveries.

If anything, these exclusive cards are equivalent to an executive stock option, where the cost to the company is fixed, but the taxable fair market value to the employee is MUCH higher. Given that WotC has been doing these exclusives as payment in kind, and the secondary market does exist to determine their typical value, everybody knows roughly what they are doing. Nobody is working an event for the equivalent of a 30c Common.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I can get pretty anti-commercial, so I really like the idea of organized play for games being moved away from the product sales focus and towards a non profit approach. Like the many local and regional societies for all sorts of other hobbies, art forms and cultural expressions. An international alliance of national collectible card game appreciation societies sounds pretty good to me. They can run Magic and Pokemon and Yugioh and so forth.

I'd also like to see North American miniature gaming communities stop being tied so closely to retailers. There might be a cultural barrier there though where the profit motive of the retailers drives them to sell people on the idea of being part of the gaming community at a given store.

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. For-profit businesses have the budget to run major events. Non-profit clubs are usually working with a much smaller budget (since they have to depend on only event entry fees to pay for everything, and can't supplement that with product sales) so that means smaller prizes, fewer major events, local events that cost a lot more to join and are played in space that isn't as nice, etc.

 Peregrine wrote:
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. For-profit businesses have the budget to run major events. Non-profit clubs are usually working with a much smaller budget (since they have to depend on only event entry fees to pay for everything, and can't supplement that with product sales) so that means smaller prizes, fewer major events, local events that cost a lot more to join and are played in space that isn't as nice, etc.

I'm going to lose something I don't have. Oh no!

The only problem areas with the local community are small factional groups with an unmerited sense of store loyalty who won't go to events run by other stores. And that's slowly being busted up by social media groups being pan-city focused and player run events turning out better than store run events.

 frozenwastes wrote:
The only problem areas with the local community are small factional groups with an unmerited sense of store loyalty who won't go to events run by other stores.

That was one of the big issues locally about being a Tournament Organizer. A couple stores didn't care that I ran tournaments in other stores because the people that attended them tend to be locals plus extras who were more into the competitive play and would travel. I wasn't asking people to switch their "local game store preference" or to buy product from what was perceived as my main store but a couple store owners took it that way. They usually gave a cold shoulder when trying to coordinate a group calendar or trying to run events at their stores. This instead meant they never got picked for State, Realm or Regional Championships because I wasn't about to recommend a store that didn't help the community. Many players have a normal game time but there are also many players that can't always show up, so trying to keep events evenly distributed between stores, meant that someone could at least attend one or multiple events a month because they could go Saturday early, or Sunday late or Tuesday evening. But there are still owners who view their customers as "theirs" and even customers who view their store as "theirs" so they won't attend events anywhere else. There have definitely been some frustrating times.

For Magic the stores cooperate a lot. They don't run the same format on the same evenings (except for standard on fridays). Which means that when people get into a format like standard or modern and decide to do it twice in a given week, they'll end up at more than one store during the week. And all these events are run by paid staff members.

For Magic you can go to one store and see posters about upcoming large events at other stores.

It's actually the miniature players that are the factional bunch. We actually have X-Wing players who won't attend regionals if the "wrong" store is hosting it that season. And as well as the store issue you have 40k players being hostile to AoS players as the popularity of AoS since the General's Handbook came out is siphoning players away from 40k. Same thing happened when Flames of War became popular 10 years ago and Warmachine/Hordes 5 years ago.

It's probably a culture caused by 10-20 or so selfish individuals spread between 3 stores who trash other stores and other games whenever the opportunity arises, creating a negative impression about store cooperation all the while the store owners and event organizers are doing everything they can to fully cooperate.

The good thing about these toxic individuals is they will not come to player run events or multi-store run events. Now if only I could get them to stop spreading their factious negativity at the times they do show up to a given X-Wing night at their store of choice. I'm sure they have talked other people out of showing up at events who otherwise would have. And they probably have driven away people from their store of choice. You tend to alienate people when you trash the game they're interested in.

I've heard store owners complain about how "mercenary" magic players are. They'll play anywhere, and don't care which local store they're supporting! Personally, I don't like it when a store owner feels like he's entitled to your business,. but that's off topic.

 Todosi wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Privateer Press cited redundancy in their axing of the Press Gang- basically they say that they've started supporting the retailers directly (with event packs and such).

They may also have feared a lawsuit from the Press Gang- although I believe they have a lot less control over the Press Gang than Wizards has over the Judges, so it probably wouldn't look the same.



Quick note- These laws governing volunteer work NEED to exist. Imagine what Hollywood would look like if they could hire actors as volunteers (they have guilds because actors would gladly work for less than living wages for the opportunity to get their face out there).

The sad thing is that is happening in Hollywood every day! Actors, crew members etc.. dreaming of the glamorous life and the "next big project" are taking sub minimum wage jobs and the employers are getting away with it. The only difference is that a group hasn't really stuck together to hit those types of producers where it hurts.

This is a sticky situation, but seems like the judges have the right end of this.

That's what the Guilds in Hollywood are all about- they try to keep the young and excited actors from being exploited. The actor's guild protects extras (they get paid pretty decent, actually). They also make sure that the film credits people where credit is due.

But that's also why they kick people out if they work outside of the guild rules (including working for sub-standard pay).

True enough, but there is always non union work, and that is where it starts to get sketchy sometimes. Even when there is law set as precedent, someone will step up to take that sub minimum wage job.

This will get a lot of attention from outside the gaming industry, much like the Chapterhouse case (where it wasn't about the after market for space marine shoulder pads worth literally tens of dollars, but aftermarket car parts worth hundreds of millions).

Wizards are telling the judges when to work and paying them in something that could be interpreted as company scrip.

Think what a certain US retailer that relies on the federal food stamps programme to stop their employees starving to death and medicare/medicaid to stop them dropping like flies from preventable disease would do with a judgement supporting company scrip as a valid means of payment for employees.

Would your employer decide to pay you in something other than money?

Ben2 wrote:
Would your employer decide to pay you in something other than money?

Many startups compensate employees in stock and options instead of cash. Depending on how things go, those options can be worth far more than cash.

https://www.facebook.com/magichaven/photos/a.916566308362080.1073741828.916563408362370/1405962976089075/?type=3




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ben2 wrote:
Would your employer decide to pay you in something other than money?

Many startups compensate employees in stock and options instead of cash. Depending on how things go, those options can be worth far more than cash.

And therein lies the problem. How does the 'man' tax those benefits? At the nickel value of the card that they get for their time, or at the exorbitant price that can be gotten in the secondary market? If this sort of thing becomes too big of a problem, you could see tax codes shift in such a way as to see new requirements for tax documentation for the swaps in the swap shop forums here and on other sites. After all, the 'manz' have to be able to get their pound of flesh from the invisible transactions on these sites.

 carldooley wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ben2 wrote:
Would your employer decide to pay you in something other than money?

Many startups compensate employees in stock and options instead of cash. Depending on how things go, those options can be worth far more than cash.

And therein lies the problem. How does the 'man' tax those benefits?

At the nickel value of the card that they get for their time,

or at the exorbitant price that can be gotten in the secondary market?

As I've said earlier, it'll be *exactly* the same as stock options.

The fractional nickel cost is what WotC writes off as their salary expense.

The (vastly higher) fair market price is what the employee must use as their basis for IRS income taxes owed.

A representative program is dependent on the TOS/ Letter of Agreement.

As to taxing- It doesn't get taxed for volunteer work, but in some of these programs, such as what I take it from the Magic one, you DO have a training program which may be linked in there with a open question to the issue.

I've done this for several different games, and specifically, there was a Terms of Service agreement for the programs.

A side question to ask would be to know if these companies get a tax break for the use of these volunteers for the companies benefits.

At this point, those Judges will be Employees, and their cards will be treated as taxable wages, as payment in kind, at the current fair market (i.e. eBay) value. If I were a Judge, I'd talk to an accountant.