koooaei wrote:
orks of course


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for 30 pts possessed should have rending, 2 ccw and charge after run as base option - like wuffen. Cause 2 wounds are not enough to justify their mediocricy for such an enormous price. Or just make them significantly cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, there's nothing about mutilators other than a 5 pt drop - i assume they're great as is

 kirotheavenger wrote:
As a Blood Angels player I object to you squatting all of our unique units, otherwise known as half th codex

I don't think storm bolters should be S5, they're bolters.They should either function like 2 bolters fired as a single weapon, or have rending. The first one at least makes the Sternguard issue instantly moot.

5pts for a pistol is incredibly cheap. They sacrifice a small (yes small) amount of range for double the RoF and a CCW. Don't forget you can assault after firing plasma pistols.

Personally I'd like Devastators to be able to take special weapons as well. But they'd be insane in Drop Pods.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Fast Vehicles can easily be covered as a general upgrade. What was it, like 10 points on all their vehicles? Martel would know off the top of his head.
Furiosos were Ironclad Dreads for all intents and purposes outside the fact they had access to Frag Cannons, which was the only reason they were used. Ergo that would just go under unique wargear for them after I get a couple more codices tackled.
Sanguine Guard were not Marine killers. Sanguine Guard were worse than Death Company in pretty much every aspect outside tanking AP3 weapons.

I did forget about adding the option for Command Squads to buy Jump Packs though so I'll amend that later today.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Fast Vehicles can easily be covered as a general upgrade. What was it, like 10 points on all their vehicles? Martel would know off the top of his head.
Furiosos were Ironclad Dreads for all intents and purposes outside the fact they had access to Frag Cannons, which was the only reason they were used. Ergo that would just go under unique wargear for them after I get a couple more codices tackled.
Sanguine Guard were not Marine killers. Sanguine Guard were worse than Death Company in pretty much every aspect outside tanking AP3 weapons.

I did forget about adding the option for Command Squads to buy Jump Packs though so I'll amend that later today.

Furiosos are half Ironclads and half Venerables. They also got magna grapples, blood talons and WS5. Plus Librarians.
Sanguinary Guard all have master crafted power weapons and unique bolt weapons. Also, regardless of if they're good or not (is that not the point of fixes) they're unique, cool and fluffy. You have no need to reject them just because Death Company (which btw you've also squatted so surely it's a mute point) are more points efficient in most cases. Sanguinary Guard are tougher, especially when you add in a Sanguinary Priest so they also get FNP.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Furiosos are half Ironclads and half Venerables. They also got magna grapples, blood talons and WS5. Plus Librarians.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Sanguinary Guard all have master crafted power weapons and unique bolt weapons. Also, regardless of if they're good or not (is that not the point of fixes) they're unique, cool and fluffy. You have no need to reject them just because Death Company (which btw you've also squatted so surely it's a mute point) are more points efficient in most cases. Sanguinary Guard are tougher, especially when you add in a Sanguinary Priest so they also get FNP.

Martel732 wrote:
Why not have 3 or 4 pages for the unique units instead of an entire codex?

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Now, is it really fair if BAs get everything space marines get plus 20 more?

 kirotheavenger wrote:
WS5 does matter. That's hitting on a 3+ instead of a 4+.
They also lack the seismic hammer, and only have 12 on the sides (I think Ironclads are 13 on the sides).
And don't forget Death Company Dreadnoughts (that's even if you take the liberty of giving all chapters Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts)
And compare this, if I recall the Black Templars have 3 unique entries in the codex, BA would need 20 unique entries if you include the 3 unique units I know of outside our codex (btw they share 26 entries, so our codex is roughly 45% unique).
That'd be a hell of a squeeze to get into 3-4 pages. What would you cut?
Now, is it really fair if BAs get everything space marines get plus 20 more?

How much more unique are space wolves compared to the BA?
Could that just be perception bias because it just so happens SW unique units are top tier atm and BA units aren't?

Jbz` wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Now, is it really fair if BAs get everything space marines get plus 20 more?

More than 1/2 of BA only things are unique characters. Almost all chapters have a bunch (Some have more than others, UM/BA/SW etc having more than most)
Ultramarines have what, 5 characters? BA have a lot more. They don't have to share. If you think they should share, which ones do you propose to squat? Tycho is the only obvious choice, the rest are like squatting Him, Cato Sicarius.

As for the rest:
Dreadnoughts only really need one page if you make everything an upgrade option. (Just like Land Raiders- there is no need for 3 near identical units that can be made with options)
I disagree, Raiders change their transport capacity and weapons. Although it's doable.
Dreadnoughts however change weapons, armour, special rules and base stats. Frankly the only thing that remains a constant is that they have 'Dreadnought' somewhere in the name.
Sanguinary Guard are basically just honour guard with jump packs.
Eh, and the bolters and fancy swords and death masks. Plus Honour Guard don't have jump packs.
Baal Predator- I see no reason why other chapters wouldn't have copied their armament (simply have Overcharged engines tacked onto Blood Angel/successor vehicles via Chapter tactics or something)
[b]If you give Baal Predators to all you're completely retconning all the fluff surrounding the vehicle, you're retconning why the BA have such tenuous relations with the Mechanicum, and for what? Because you want the toy too.
And the Sanguinary Priest- Again I see no reason to disallow Hq Apothecaries for other chapters (Blood Chalice can be an upgrade for BA)
[i]Sanguinary Priests are a big part of Blood Angels. It's part of what makes them unique. Blood Angels deviate from the codex in that their apothecaries hold equal rank to Chaplains, and above Librarians. That is not normal, that is why other chapters don't have apothecary HQs.

As for the "Death Company Chaplain" why they felt the need to add this guy I don't know, a standard chaplain is far more flexible to use.
[b][b]But a DC Chaplain turns Death Company into one hell of a beat stick. Personally why Lemartes isn't one I don't know though. [/b][/i]

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
WS5 does matter. That's hitting on a 3+ instead of a 4+.
They also lack the seismic hammer, and only have 12 on the sides (I think Ironclads are 13 on the sides).
And don't forget Death Company Dreadnoughts (that's even if you take the liberty of giving all chapters Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts)
And compare this, if I recall the Black Templars have 3 unique entries in the codex, BA would need 20 unique entries if you include the 3 unique units I know of outside our codex (btw they share 26 entries, so our codex is roughly 45% unique).
That'd be a hell of a squeeze to get into 3-4 pages. What would you cut?
Now, is it really fair if BAs get everything space marines get plus 20 more?

How much more unique are space wolves compared to the BA?
Could that just be perception bias because it just so happens SW unique units are top tier atm and BA units aren't?

1. WS5 doesn't matter. Almost everyone agrees the WS Chart needs to be reworked (which someone presented but I didn't have time to look at thoroughly). Hitting on 3 instead of 4? That's still less than three attacks landing per turn.
WS5 does matter. First it represents a difference, and second it's 2.5 hits vs 3.3 hits of 5 attacks. Reworking the chart so it's not so gakked would surely only extend the difference between WS4 and 5?
2. Everyone should have access to Librarian Dreads. Chaplain Dreads are a FW thing so I I'd have to find the stats and rules for them. With that said, what's the main difference between a regular Dread and the Death Company one? Rage? Access to the shredding power Fists? That's not enough justification for a unit entry.
But FURIOSO Librarian Dreads? The difference between a Death Company Dread and a regular is rage, and double melee weapons. Saying that's not an important difference is stupid because that's like the difference between Vanguard Veterans and Sternguard veterans, or Death Company and Tactical Marines (yet you seem fine with Death Company existing).
3. Black Templar only had one real unique unit in their own Codex. That was the Crusader squad. Everything else was able to be covered in the main codex (Sword Brethren? That's just Vanguard without Jump Packs). The rest of the "unqiue" Blood Angels units can be basically covered outside Death Company. Seriously, Sanguine Guard are just worse Honour Guard. Give the Honour Guard a Jump Pack upgrade and problem solved. Price is to be determined later.
Worse is irrelevant, I thought that's what balancing is for. You talk like jump packs are a small deal, or that giving Honour Guard them wouldn't make a difference. That changes everything, Sanguinary Guard is one of those things that set BA apart from the norm. Not to mention their encarmine blades, death masks and angelus bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding Space Wolves, they use completely different organization. The only real difference between Blood Angels and vanilla Marines is that they have Death Company in the fluff.
And Apothecarys with equivalent rank to Chaplain, and unique relic Dreadnoughts, and a Predator STC they withheld from the Mechanicus, and Honour Guard with Jump packs.
Does naming everything wolf blank really make that big of a difference?[i]

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

V - CODEX Tyranids

Spoiler:

Equipment Fixes, Powers, and Relics:
1. Scything Talons allow rerolls of 1 to wound
2. The Norn Crown is now 25 points
3. The Reaper Of Obliterax is AP2 and is now 40 points
4. The Miasma Cannon has Large Blast on its profile
5. The Ymgarl Factor is now 25 points
6. Thorax Biomorphs can be fired in addition to any other weapons the model might be carrying.
7. Catalyst adds 1 to Feel No Pain scores, or gives Feel No Pain (6+) if the unit doesn't have FNP present.
8. Warp Blast is WC1

HQ Fixes:
1. The Hive Tyrant may purchased an Enhanced Exoskeleton which gives a 2+ for 20 points if the Tyrant did not already purchase wings.
. Twinlinked Devourers are 20 points each.
. Wings are 40 points
. Any unit within Synapse range of a Hive Tyrant gains Rage and Counter Attack.
2. The Tyranid Prime is now 90 points and may select to buy Master Level 1 for 25 points. It may buy a Jump Pack for 15 points
. Any unit within Synapse range of the Prime adds +1 to its WS and BS scores
3. The Tervigon is now 175 points.
. Any unit within Synapse range of the Tervigon may add 3" to all charge distances.
4. The Swarmlord is now 265 points.
. Any unit within Synapse range of the Swarmlord has Hatred and Crusader

Troop Fixes:
1. Genestealers have a 5++ save.
2. Any unit within Synapse range of a Warrior gains Feel No Pain.
3. Termagaunts and Hormagaunts are considered Beasts.

Elite Fixes:
1. Any unit within Synapse range of a Zoanthrope gains Adamantium Will
2. Hive Guard are now 45 points each.
3. Lictors are 40 points each.
. The Deathleaper is a 90 point upgrade to a single Lictor brood per army and cannot be the Warlord. Any unit that charges his unit suffers D6 Strength 6 attacks at I10, in addition to his unit benefiting from "Where is it?"
4. Pyrovores gain an additional profile to their gun, which is Heavy 1, Torrent
5. Any wound that the Haruspex inflicts regenerates any lost wounds the model had.
6. Any unit within Synapse range of the Maleceptor rerolls any failed Overwatch results, and the Maleceptor is now 180 points.
. Psychic Overload is WC1

Fast Attack Fixes:
1. Units cannot perform Overwatch on Ravenors
. The Red Terror is now 80 points, and only needs to land 3 attacks for the Swallow Whole ability, which ignores all saves.
2. Any unit within Synapse range of Shrikes has Hit And Run.

Heavy Support Fixes:
1. The Carnifex has It Will Not Die! and is now 110 points.
. Old One Eye is a single 180 point upgrade to any Carnifex brood per army and may never be the Warlord. He has It Will Not Die and Feel No Pain standard.
2. The Trygon is now 180 points, and isn't restricted to what unit type may come from its Subterranean Tunnel.
. Any unit within Synapse range of a Trygon Prime counts as having Assault Grenades. If the unit already counted as having Assault Grenades, it gains +1I when charging.
3. The Tyrannofex's Acid Spray is now AP3. Switching to the Fleshborer Hive is AP4 and is a free exchange. The Tyrannofex may be taken in broods of up to three models.
. The Rupture Cannon is now AP2 and has 3 shots.

I'll take any suggestions for which codex to try and tackle next. I've got ideas for all of them, but obviously I can only do one at a time.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Wulfen are more the problem and need a price increase.

Martel732 wrote:
"They die pretty easily against any sort of firepower."

Not with stormshields, they don't. My opponents don't fall into your trap and give them to all of them.

I think Wulfen need a pretty severe nerf, or other assault units need to be made comparable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. They pay how much for a hammer and shield? 20? Utterly ridiculous.

Jbz` wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. They pay how much for a hammer and shield? 20? Utterly ridiculous.

Considering that everyone else pays more for just the thunder hammer that is ridiculous.
Though to me TH/SS Wulfen are a lot less scary than Claw Wulfen.
A tonne of Str 6 attacks, Ap2, shred.
AND with I 5 they're likely to get to attack twice instead of just once if you kill them in melee.

Jbz` wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. They pay how much for a hammer and shield? 20? Utterly ridiculous.

Considering that everyone else pays more for just the thunder hammer that is ridiculous.
Though to me TH/SS Wulfen are a lot less scary than Claw Wulfen.
A tonne of Str 6 attacks, Ap2, shred.
AND with I 5 they're likely to get to attack twice instead of just once if you kill them in melee.

Martel732 wrote:

Jbz` wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. They pay how much for a hammer and shield? 20? Utterly ridiculous.

Considering that everyone else pays more for just the thunder hammer that is ridiculous.
Though to me TH/SS Wulfen are a lot less scary than Claw Wulfen.
A tonne of Str 6 attacks, Ap2, shred.
AND with I 5 they're likely to get to attack twice instead of just once if you kill them in melee.

How so? You can't kill the TH/SS variety.

Jbz` wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Jbz` wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. They pay how much for a hammer and shield? 20? Utterly ridiculous.

Considering that everyone else pays more for just the thunder hammer that is ridiculous.
Though to me TH/SS Wulfen are a lot less scary than Claw Wulfen.
A tonne of Str 6 attacks, Ap2, shred.
AND with I 5 they're likely to get to attack twice instead of just once if you kill them in melee.

How so? You can't kill the TH/SS variety.

They're tough, not invincible.
I kill them the same way I kill Thunderwolves.

Bolters/Lasguns etc.
No point firing anything heavy duty at them, go for fire-rate.
The SW player in my group doesn't put storm shields on his guys for that exact reason, they get killed by small arms not Ap 1-3 weapons

 Blackie wrote:
You typically have 2 max 3 models with the shield in a unit of 5 wulfen, as you don't want them to attack at I1.

A 3+ inv in a 2W, T4, 4+ save and FNP isn't that invincible, they're still dudes of foot. Any decent round of S5-6 shooting will decimate them before reaching combat, if you deep strike or maneuver in order to target models without the shield first you can kill them very easily. Killing 2 models with shields is very easy with a good saturation and then your S8 or better weapons can instant kill the remaining ones.

They can also be tarpitted quite easily by blobs as they have many attacks but a ws4 you should waste half of them. I've seen termagants that locked them in combat for three turns and eventually killed the wulfen.

If you put them in a transport they won't reach close combat till turn 3 or even 4, unless you put them in a land raider, and we all know that would mean 250 points wasted.

They're not overpowered I think, their formation is overpowered, as you gain some free bonus and just need two units of them, which you want to take anyway.

I mean wulfen are an amazing unit and they may be a little undercosted but without their current stats, SW would be at the same level of BA if not worse.