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Martel732 wrote:


What's wrong with init 1 when your units basically can't die? they have two wounds and the dreaded layered saves. Wulfen are very undecosted given their CC ability relative to other units. I don't think these things should have storm shields, period.

They die pretty easily against almost everything, wulfen are very good only against units that have high armor and toughness values. Without the shields a mid sized unit of lootas, tankbustas or devastators can wipe out them in a single round of fire. In close combat they can't handle blobs very well. I always take max 2 models with shields as I want at least 3 models that strike at I4, otherwise if they are massacred. Sure they have their special rule that allow them to attack again but the unit would be screwed for the remaining part of the game. The shields only serve the purpose of minimizing the casualties in the shooting phase.

I'm not saying they're average, they're very good indeed, but they are part of a balanced codex and space wolves can't be top tiers no matter what list you take, that's why I wouldn't like nerfing the wulfen, not only because I typically field a bunch of them Nerfs should only come to those units that belong to top tiers armies, that's my opinion, I don't mind using or facing good or very good units if they are part of a list that is not overpowered at all.

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


What's wrong with init 1 when your units basically can't die? they have two wounds and the dreaded layered saves. Wulfen are very undecosted given their CC ability relative to other units. I don't think these things should have storm shields, period.

They die pretty easily against almost everything, wulfen are very good only against units that have high armor and toughness values. Without the shields a mid sized unit of lootas, tankbustas or devastators can wipe out them in a single round of fire. In close combat they can't handle blobs very well. I always take max 2 models with shields as I want at least 3 models that strike at I4, otherwise if they are massacred. Sure they have their special rule that allow them to attack again but the unit would be screwed for the remaining part of the game. The shields only serve the purpose of minimizing the casualties in the shooting phase.

I'm not saying they're average, they're very good indeed, but they are part of a balanced codex and space wolves can't be top tiers no matter what list you take, that's why I wouldn't like nerfing the wulfen, not only because I typically field a bunch of them Nerfs should only come to those units that belong to top tiers armies, that's my opinion, I don't mind using or facing good or very good units if they are part of a list that is not overpowered at all.

Unless you are playing Eldar, your statements just aren't true. Layered saves are never that easy to get through.

"Without the shields a mid sized unit of lootas, tankbustas or devastators can wipe out them in a single round of fire"

That's why you buy the shields. Duh.

Yes but you typically buy just a couple of shields in each unit, removing them by shooting is not that difficult. Dark eldars with tons of poisoned shots can do it very well, orks with tons of S5 (lobbas and bikes) are effective too. IG has a ton of shooting too, not to mention tau.

They are just T4, 4+ save with 2W and FNP which means any ap4 can bypass their armor and any s8 would instant kill them, and still dudes on foot that move 6''.

Deep striking units can target the models without the shield and kill them very easily.

And a unit of wulfen with 5TH/SS is not very effective, too expensive, without a character that can kill a nasty enemy character in a challenge and they have to suffer the enemy close combat attacks, while having some I4 wulfen would kill a lot of stuff before they strike.

If I go second my wulfen can be wiped out before reaching close combat, or at least crippled quite badly. They typically suffer 2 and sometimes even 3 (if I go second) rounds of shooting before reaching combat.

"Yes but you typically buy just a couple of shields in each unit"

That's not the case in my experience. They are very effective, since they are all Str 10, and don't care if they die first. Not that there's a good way to do that through a stormshield and FNP.

They usually come in via pod, and so only suffer one round of shooting.

5 man with TH/SS that come via drop pod are not the most common way to field them.

One of the greatest qualties wulfen have is to buff thunderwolves movement, if you reserve them the thunderwolves get no benefit from the wulfen table.

About their loadout it depends on the opponent, if they face a mob of 30 boyz with their 120 attacks on the charge they can cripple the wulfen, but if the wulfen have 2-3 models with I4 they can wipe out 15+ orks including the nob that can instant kill the wulfen with his power klaw.

Against 5 meganobz 5 TH/SS wulfen would suffer some casualties, 2-3 models with I4 means 5 dead meganobz and no casualties in return.

Things like the canoptek harvest are certainly more broken.

I disagree. They are both beyond the pale, imo.

Sorry but there is no manner that Canoptek Harvest is any better than even plain CAD Wulfen.

S6 vs S10-Wulfen win.
T5 vs T4-Wraiths win.
I2 vs I1-Wraiths win.
4+ Reanimate vs 5+ FNP-Wraiths win.
40 Points vs. 50 Points-Wraiths win.
12" move, ignoring terrain, vs 6" move plus d6" run-Wraiths win.
AP-, with Rending, vs AP2-Wulfen win.

So what was that "In no manner" again?

You operate under the assumption Wraiths will have the RP.

Wulfen in pods is sufficiently brutal to justify losing the possible TWC speed buff. Wraiths can't get pods.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You operate under the assumption Wraiths will have the RP.

Okay. They're still faster, have a higher toughness, better initiative (Wulfen CAN get better, at the cost of survivaibility) and are cheaper.

To say Wulfen are unequivocally better is wrong.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You operate under the assumption Wraiths will have the RP.

Okay. They're still faster, have a higher toughness, better initiative (Wulfen CAN get better, at the cost of survivaibility) and are cheaper.

To say Wulfen are unequivocally better is wrong.

Except you don't need the Thunder Hammer on every dude...

You'd think that people would've already come to their senses about Canoptek harvest but oh well.

Besides right now I'm balancing under a CAD. From there, I will work on either fixing formations or eliminating some.

My group goes all storm shields, because otherwise, you can outmaneuver the shields.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You operate under the assumption Wraiths will have the RP.

Okay. They're still faster, have a higher toughness, better initiative (Wulfen CAN get better, at the cost of survivaibility) and are cheaper.

To say Wulfen are unequivocally better is wrong.

Except you don't need the Thunder Hammer on every dude...

You'd think that people would've already come to their senses about Canoptek harvest but oh well.

Besides right now I'm balancing under a CAD. From there, I will work on either fixing formations or eliminating some.

Faster, higher toughness are ways they are better without a shadow of a doubt.

I'm not directly comparing them. But I can hold up the wraiths a lot longer. The Wulfen murder everything they touch instantly.

Yeah, Wulfen are killier, if you buy them upgrades. Without any upgrades, Wraiths hit harder (S6 compared to S5, and Rending) but unupgraded Wulfen just don't really happen on the tabletop.

The Wulfen upgrades are too cheap. That's the whole problem. They are more durable than a TH/SS terminator against most things and should be priced accordingly. Of course, Wraiths should be 60 ppm base as well.

They're also pricier. Unless you consider a 4+ armor, with FNP, equal to a 2+/3++?

Martel732 wrote:
The Wulfen upgrades are too cheap. That's the whole problem. They are more durable than a TH/SS terminator against most things and should be priced accordingly. Of course, Wraiths should be 60 ppm base as well.

LOL nobody is gonna use a 60 point Wraith. Come on dude...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
They're also pricier. Unless you consider a 4+ armor, with FNP, equal to a 2+/3++?

2 wounds with 4+/5+++.

Yeah, agreed. Wraiths might be too cheap-maybe (they're not especially killy, for their points)-but a 50% increase would be RIDICULOUS.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, agreed. Wraiths might be too cheap-maybe (they're not especially killy, for their points)-but a 50% increase would be RIDICULOUS.

Nobody complains about the CAD ones. People simply go nuts when they are in a Decurion and they can potentially get a 4+++. That's pretty damn tough but is it really worth complaining about when you only have to kill a Spyder? I don't think so. Remove that part of the potential benefits and suddenly nobody cares.

 JNAProductions wrote:
They're also pricier. Unless you consider a 4+ armor, with FNP, equal to a 2+/3++?

With two wounds, a 3++/5+++ and true S10, I think they should be considerably more expensive.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Nobody complains about the CAD ones.

Nobody should complain about cad wulfen too. Wraiths are way faster and tougher, they don't punch as harder as wulfen but they typically strike first too, thanks to I5. And they are a unit that belongs to a quite good codex, the SW one is certainly less competitive. Every competitive necron list relies on the decurion and the canoptek harvest is typically an autoinclude, I often saw even two harvests in the same list.

The murderpack is broken because you typically want two units of wulfen anyway so you're basically receiving some cool bonus for free when using that formation.

Against competitive tau I usually have better results with orks and dark eldar rather than using SW, as the wolves can't really work with MSU, unless they bring the Blackmanes formation which doesn't have synergy with wulfen though. Even with 10 thunderwolves and 10-15 wulfen, tau typically cripple them from distance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not directly comparing them. But I can hold up the wraiths a lot longer. The Wulfen murder everything they touch instantly.

That's because of the different armies we play, I can kill wulfen at distance quite easily while wraiths simply refuse to go down, in close combat the same story, wraiths can soak too many hits and reach combat sooner. Wulfen punch very hard but against some low armor units with a lot of models or against WS5 they struggle a lot.

I'm sorry but how are Wulfen struggling with hordes? They've got 3+ attacks and can attack when they die too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm sorry but how are Wulfen struggling with hordes? They've got 3+ attacks and can attack when they die too.

Conscripts are, what, 3 points a pop?

So a single Wulfen would have to kill 10 to make their points back, unupgraded. We'll assume they took Claws, for maximum horde duty, making them need to kill 14.

6 attacks on the charge, 4 every turn thereafter. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, rerolling.

They need a total of 21.6 attacks to make their points back on horde duty, or five rounds of combat.

Or, to put it this way, my 210 point squad of Wulfen will take 77 attacks, or four rounds of combat to clear their way out of the 150 (well, 175-Priest) point horde.

Now, that number does go down as Wulfen die, since they will strike twice. But then you're also losing Wulfen.

Based off that rate it'll be killed the Wulfen will easily get its points back.

Either way this isn't the correct thread.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm sorry but how are Wulfen struggling with hordes? They've got 3+ attacks and can attack when they die too.

They've got 3 attacks each, +2 if charging +1 if charged. Typically 25-27 attacks at ws4, which means 12-14 hits, 11-12 wounds. Against units with 20-30 wounds they're not that effective, they can be punched by regular ork boyz, and without their leader they can't even challenge out the nob, which has the capacity of instant kill the wulfen the power klaw, or other killy characters. You may also face some ws5 guys (orks boyz usually are a an horde of 10 men units in trukks or 17-18 in a BW with the warboss which makes them ws5 thanks to the lucky stikk), which means even less hits. Against an horde wulfen could win or at least cripple the horde, but at an harsh cost, they are super effective against units that don't have more than 12-15 wounds and against high armors. Wulfen are not a suicide squad, they should murder the enemy unit and then chase another target. Otherwise 1-2 round of average shooting and a simple but effective horde can make them almost useless, but 1-2 rounds of good shooting should make them almost useless, wraiths are way more tough to kill.

I've now included Orks in the OP, so that's a total of 5 Codices I've done. I read the codex a lot to make sure I didn't make any redundant rules but if I did let me know PLEASE! Also note that some of the benefits are bizarre and I'd be open to new ideas for some of them (Gretchin were the hardest to do anything for to be honest).

Outside of that, should I work on a different codex, tackle FW stuff for each codex I've done, or start removing/rebalancing formations for each codex I've done?

Great job man, I've tried to give you a response about your work, basically "ok" means a change that makes sense but not a concrete improvement, "nice" means a real effective and approriate bonus.

Orks

Special Rules and Equipment Fixes, and Relics:
1. Mob Rule's results can be rerolled if the unit has 10 or more models in the unit. ok
2. All Ork vehicles have the Ramshackle rule standard. nice
3. Big Choppas are now AP4 ok
4. Cybork Bodies add +1 to any Feel No Pain score, or confer a Feel No Pain 6+ if one isn't present nice
5. Da Dead Shiny Shoota is now Assault 10 nice
6. Da Finkin' Kap is now 20 points fair
7. Da Lukky Stikk is now 35 points fair
8. Headwoppa's Killchoppa is now AP4 ok
9. Characters of any kind attached to a squad count as 2 models for determining what benefits a squad might get (See below) ok

HQ:
1. Warbosses can buy Jump Packs for 15 points useless, even in th BG we don't have stormbosses
2. Big Meks can buy Jump Packs for 15 points same as above
3. Weird Boys have access to Runts, Squigs, and Wat-Nots, and his Staff is now Concussive ok

Troops:
1. Boyz' Heavy Armor upgrade is instead 3 points per model ok
Boyz have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit
5-14: Add +1 to any Feel No Pain score, or gain Feel No Pain (6+) if the former can't happen ok
15-24: The entire unit is treated as having +1 Strength ok
25+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, the entire unit gains an additional 6" of movement when moving for the turn. ok, maybe gaining fearless could be more appropriate though
2. Gretchin can buy Autoguns for 1 point each, and gain the following benefits, depending on how many models are in the unit ok
5-14: The unit is now Stubborn ok
15-24: The unit can make an extra attack at Initiative 1 for each model in the unit ok
25+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, any Objective the unit is holding cannot be contested, even if the contesting unit has Objective Secured. ok

Elites:
1. Kommandos have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit
5-9: The unit has Shrouded nice
10-14: When charging, the unit gains a Hammer Of Wrath attack conducted at S4 ok
15+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, the unit gains Rending on all range and melee attacks for the turn.
. Snikkrot is now a 50 point upgrade to a single Kommando squad per army. If he is in the unit, the unit may charge when coming from Reserves, instead of gaining Shrouded from his Ambush rule. very nice
2. Tank Bustaz have a 4+, and have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit they's t-shirt boyz, keep the 6+
5-9: All Range Attacks made by the unit have Shred ok
10-14: The unit has Twin-Linked on all weapons. ok
15+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, all range weapons in the unit have Armorbane for the turn. nice, maybe a new weapon upgrade which gives the tankbustas a melta gun equivalent?
3. Burna Boyz have a 5+, and have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit they's basically meks, the 5+ has more sense than the tankbustas' 4+
5-9: All attacks conducted by the unit have Soul Blaze nice
10-14: All the Burnas in the unit can use both the range and melee profiles, even if the unit shot with them. very nice
15+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, the unit gains Torrent on their Burnas and may reroll results of Wall of Death until the end of the turn. super cool!
4. Meganobz have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit
3-5: The unit is treated as Relentless instead of Slow And Purposeful ok
6-9: The unit adds +1 to any Feel No Pain score they have ok
10+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, the entire unit has +1WS and +1BS until the end of the turn. ok
5. Nobz only pay 3 points per model for Heavy Armor, and 18 points per model per bike. The unit has the following benefits, depending on how many models are in the unit nice
3-5: The unit has a natural Leadership of 10 I'd keep the ld10 only for the warboss, make them ld9 instead
6-9: Any unit within 12" of this unit have Leadership of 10 ok, but with ld9 is the warboss is not part of the unit
10+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, the unit and all units within 12" of it have Crusader ok

Fast Attack:
1. Stormboyz gain the following benefits, depending on how many models are in the unit
5-14: The unit conducts all Hammer Of Wrath attacks at Strength 5 nice
15-24: The unit gains the Jink special rule nice
25+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, the unit can run and charge in the same turn. If a Waaagh! was called, it can reroll all run results for the turn.
. Zagstruck is now a 70 point upgrade to a single Stormboy squad per army. He counts as having a single handed Big Choppa now. nice
2. Warbikers are 20 points per model, and have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit fair
5-9: Hammer Of Wrath attacks have Shred mmmh, I think it would be more appropriate a S5 HoW like the stormboyz
10-14: Hammer Of Wrath attacks have AP3 no, it's too much, just standard S5 HoW would be powerful
15+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, all units actively within 9" of the unit gain +1 to any Cover Save they have, or a 6+ Cover Save if they didn't have one. ok
3. Deffcoptas have a unit size limit of up to 6 models now, and gain the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit nice
2-3: All Deffcoptas in the unit may move an extra 3" in the movement phase nice
4-5: The unit has a 5+ Invulnerable Save no invulns, it doesn't make any sense
6+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, all Deffcoptas in the unit are treated as an Eldar Jetbike until the end of the turn same as above, make them skilled riders instead
4. Warbuggies are 20 points each. Upgrading the TL Big Shoota to a TL Rokkit Launcha or Skorcha is 5 points for either weapon. nice, skorcha buggies can be more viable
5. The Burna Bomma has 6 Skorcha Missiles standard in its profile i never played planes, i hate the models and i wouldn't play them anyway so not sure about this
6. The Blitza Bomma is now 115 points same as above
7. The Dakkajet has 3 Supa Shootas standard same as above

Heavy Support:
1. Lootas have a 5+, and have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit ok
5-9: Deffguns are Assault D3 instead of Heavy D3 no, they don't want to move anyway, add 1 to their ap instead
10-14: All range attacks made by the unit have Ignores Cover nice
15+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, Deffguns roll on a D6 instead of a D3 for that turn
. In addition to the Trukk and Battlewagon, Lootas can use the following transports from the appropriate codices and count them as dedicated. The only change is that BS2 will be the default for all vehicles, pay the appropriate costs for upgrades listed in those codices, and that only Lootas and any Independent Characters that joined them may ride them: Land Raider (Godhammer, Redeemer, and Crusader), Chimera, Taurox, Wave Serpent, Raider, Ghost Ark, Immolator, and Valkyrie. very cool
2. Flash Gitz have a 4+, and have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit nice
3-5: The AP of Snazzguns is rolled on a D3 rather than a D6 very nice, that's how they should be
6-9: All Range attacks from the unit gain Pinning nice
10+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, all the unit's range weapons increase Strength by 1 until the end of the turn. nice
. Badrukk is an 80 point upgrade to a single Flashgitz squad per army. Da Rippa is now Assault 5 ok
3. Bubblechuckas are now 25 points and have Ignores Cover ok
4. Killa Kans no longer have the Cowardly Grotz! rule. nice
5. Deff Dreads can be taken in squads of 1-3, and have Rampage as a special rule. nice
6. The Battlewagon counts as an Assault Vehicle, even when it has the 'Ard Case ok
. Killkannons are 25 points now ok
. Grabbin' Klaws can target Monstrous Creatures ok
. Wreckin' Balls now hit any model within 3" (including friendly models) on a 4+ and now costs 20 points. ok
7. The Gorkanaut and Morkanaut have a Front Armor Value of 14 no, they should be av13 like knights, reduce their cost instead

Lords Of War:
1. The Effigy radius for the Stompa is 12" and is now 570 points nice
2. Ghazghkull has a 4+ Invulnerable Save, an Power Klaw that no longer confers Unwieldy, and all Orks in his army may use his Leadership value. He is now 235 points. nice, but when he calls the waaagh his 2+ invuln should remain

Well my main fluff justification for the 5++ for Coptas was that they're producing a large enough electrical field in their numbers that it can stop attacks.

Maybe too far I guess?