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A not normal infantry model?
That is an advanced rule that applies to a specific model.
We would find that in a Codex, in the army list entry, where we are told to find advanced rules.
There we can find independent characters, hero's, or sergeants who are not normal infantry models.
You find the rules for Infantry models on page 62 of the unit types section.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 02:43:50
So just to get to the crux of this argument on the first page, if not second;
Col assumes that this statement emboldened in red above, specifically "bike" and "tank", means you then make the jump to unit types since bike is a unit type and tanks is a vehicle. This is not surprising since he made the same assumption with the word "grenades" in the wargear entry for rad grenades. However, he conveniently leaves out "swarm" of the above part because it doesn't contribute to his desired narrative. IIRC since I am not home yet, swarm is not a unit type, but a special rule. So therefore, the above emboldened text cannot be an indicator of unit types, but much more likely a description of models that just have advanced rules that apply to them that happen to be "a bike" or "a tank" or "a swarm". Of course, I would need examples of this right?
Sammael on Corvex: Not a normal infantry model, IC jetBIKE
Logan on Stormrider: Not a normal infantry model, IC TANK
As for SWARM, the little bugs from Nids and beetles from Necron seem to fit that bill as not being normal infantry models. Note, that all these models have advanced rules.
Just a different perspective on what the emboldened above statement can mean, besides col-impact's fascination words that he thinks are actual important so he hinges his whole argument on them without actually reading them.
I am not assuming anything. Where you find the rules for "not normal infantry models" is in the Unit Types section.
Spoiler:
Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of Infantry is incredibly broad (it can cover anything from the most diminutive Gretchin to the mightiest Space Marine), it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendour of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts.
To do justice to the full pomp and panoply of xenos creatures (as well as some of the weirder beings in service to the Emperor of Mankind), we will now cover a series of unit types, each with their own abilities and special rules. Vehicles are distinct enough to require their own section later on.
You linked a spoiler that has does not have "not normal infantry models" in the text at all. And you completely dismissed the four examples I gave you that fit the bill for "not normal infantry models" much better then the downward facing dog pose you just tried to commit by stretch them to Unit Types.
I just gave you prime examples of what the BRB much more likely means by "not normal infantry models" than your assumption. Please address it.
How can 2, state it applies to UNITS, but we are using critera for 1, that states it applies to SPECIFIC MODELS, rather than 2 to UNITS, in the UNIT TYPE, section?
You are getting confused about the difference between units and models and are forcing a false dichotomy between the usage of the two when the BRB often interchanges their usage. The topic of Unit Type is a topic that is about models and the unit that comprises those models.
Unit Types
This section explores all the different unit types that describe your models.
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.
In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
In addition to their unit type, some models might also be noted as being characters.
'Unit' and 'model' are used in the appropriate context in the Unit Type section. The Unit Type section freely switches between discussing 'units' and 'models' and is not confined to discussing just models or just units.
Spoiler:
JUMP UNITS
Jump units are equipped with jump packs, wings, teleport devices or other means of moving quickly over short distances. Unlike most other unit type categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it occurs before another category – commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Jump units can use their jump packs once each turn to move more swiftly in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase – they cannot use their jump packs in both phases in the same turn. If not using its jump pack, a model moves as a normal model of its type. Indeed, a Jump unit can always choose to move as a normal model of their type if they wish. Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement. Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
SKYBORNE
When using its jump pack (whether moving, charging or Falling Back, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.
Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.
MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase, it can move up to 12".
ASSAULT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack to charge into assault, it can re-roll its chargedistance.
Furthermore, to represent the crushing impact of such a charge, a model that uses its jump pack to charge gains the Hammer of Wrath special rule for the remainder of the turn.
FALL BACK MOVES
Jump units always use their jump packs when Falling Back, and their Fall Back moves are 3D6", even if they already used their jump pack to move that turn.
SPECIAL RULES
Jump units have the Bulky and Deep Strike special rules.
A not normal infantry model?
That is an advanced rule that applies to a specific model.
We would find that in a Codex, in the army list entry, where we are told to find advanced rules.
There we can find independent characters, hero's, or sergeants who are not normal infantry models.
You find the rules for Infantry models on page 62 of the unit types section.
The Army List Entry only indicates the advanced rules that apply to a unit or specific model. Those advanced rules are not necessarily contained in the Army List Entry.
An Army List Entry can point to advanced rules that can be found anywhere in the BRB or in any 40k publication
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: Col, I am getting EXTREMELY confused.
Let me explain to you why.
The Unit Type for Infantry is accounted for on the first page of the Unit Type section.
So are Infantry an advanced rule or a basic rule?
You told me there are no basic rules here.
No actual rules for basic infantry are in the Unit Type section. They are just mentioned by the Unit Type section as already covered by the Core Rules section.
Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 03:05:14
A not normal infantry model?
That is an advanced rule that applies to a specific model.
We would find that in a Codex, in the army list entry, where we are told to find advanced rules.
There we can find independent characters, hero's, or sergeants who are not normal infantry models.
You find the rules for Infantry models on page 62 of the unit types section.
The Army List Entry only indicates the advanced rules that apply to a unit or specific model. Those advanced rules are not necessarily contained in the Army List Entry.
An Army List Entry can point to advanced rules that can be found anywhere in the BRB or in any 40k publication
So is the infantry unit type, a basic rule or an advanced rule?
The codex tells me this...
This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry.
This means infantry are an advanced rule right?
The codex told me to find the rules here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 03:09:19
So is the infantry unit type, a basic rule or an advanced rule?
The codex tells me this...
This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry.
This means infantry are an advanced rule right?
The codex told me to find the rules here.
The infantry rules are basic rules.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
The Unit Type section will point you to the basic rules in the Core Rules section. So if you start off in the Unit Types section (which is an advanced rule section) you will be directed there to the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of Infantry is incredibly broad (it can cover anything from the most diminutive Gretchin to the mightiest Space Marine), it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendour of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts.
To do justice to the full pomp and panoply of xenos creatures (as well as some of the weirder beings in service to the Emperor of Mankind), we will now cover a series of unit types, each with their own abilities and special rules. Vehicles are distinct enough to require their own section later on.
Spoiler:
INFANTRY
Infantry units include all types of foot soldiers, whether human or alien. A typical unit of Infantry is between five and ten models strong but they can be much larger.
In rare cases, an Infantry unit may comprise only a single model. Infantry are fairly slow moving, but can cross almost any terrain (given enough time) and make the best use of cover to avoid enemy fire.
Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 03:18:54
An advanced rule or a basic rule?
It is located in the section you told me contained only advanced rules.
I need to know if the type is a basic rule or an advanced rule.
I am not asking about where to find the rules for infantry.
Is the infantry unit type, basic or advanced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 03:20:02
An advanced rule or a basic rule?
It is located in the section you told me contained only advanced rules.
I need to know if the type is a basic rule or an advanced rule.
I am not asking about where to find the rules for infantry.
Ceann wrote: Do you know what the word pertain means Col?
IF they have discussed the rules as they pertain to infantry, SO FAR.
That means they are about to tell us the basic rules as they pertain to things that are not infantry.
No that does not logically follow at all. All that it means is that "they have discussed the basic rules as they pertain to infantry, so far" - they can tell us whatever they want from that point on.
Remember . . .
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
The Unit Types section does not have any basic rules in it.
Mr. Shine wrote: Is it not simply the case that Infantry as a unit type is an advanced rule that defers to basic rules?
No, because his entire basis for an argument is contingent upon no basic rules existing outside of the Core Rules section.
His standard for what the basic rules are is driven from this idea that Infantry are the standard for basic rules for "movement, assault, shooting, morale, etc"
So he has two decisions, right Col?
1.
Either we have a basic rule located outside of the core rules section.
2.
Or Infantry are also an advanced rule and cannot be the standard for basic rules.
Which is it Col?
Is the unit type Infantry and advanced rule or basic rule?
There are two answers to this question.
1. Advanced rule
2. Basic rule
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 03:37:00
Mr. Shine wrote: Is it not simply the case that Infantry as a unit type is an advanced rule that defers to basic rules?
No, because his entire basis for an argument is contingent upon no basic rules existing outside of the Core Rules section.
His standard for what the basic rules are is driven from this idea that Infantry are the standard for basic rules for "movement, assault, shooting, morale, etc"
So he has two decisions, right Col?
1.
Either we have a basic rule located outside of the core rules section.
2.
Or Infantry are also an advanced rule and cannot be the standard for basic rules.
Which is it Col?
Why are you asking me? Let the rules answer you.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
There are no basic rules located outside the Core Rules section.
Ceann wrote: Is the unit type Infantry and advanced rule or basic rule?
There are two answers to this question.
1. Advanced rule
2. Basic rule
Answered for the third time. The infantry rules are basic rules.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 03:49:56
Infantry being the default template has nothing to do with the infantry type being basic or advanced.
Infantry just happens to be the lowest common denominator to which no additional rules need to be added.
Infantry doesn't change anything from the basic principles, they even tell you that much.
Is the unit type Infantry and advanced rule or basic rule?
There are two answers to this question.
1. Advanced rule
2. Basic rule
Unit Type as a definition/category is a basic rule.
The infantry rules are basic rules.
The Unit Types section is comprised of advanced rules for unit types that "are not normal infantry"
Excellent.
So now we have a basic rule being discussed on a page outside of the core rules section.
We are not talking about any NEW rules, we are simply talking about rules that already exist.
Movement is a basic rule.
Lets look at the Core rules section.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Other Important Information
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry
or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
MOVEMENT DISTANCE -
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents MOST creatures moving at
a reasonable pace but stopping several times to scan the surrounding landscape for
enemies, communicate with their commanders, identify the best lines of advance and so
on.
Different Movement Distances Within a Unit -
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
A Beast unit can perform movement, shooting and close combat.
A Jump Pack Unit can perform movement, shooting and close combat
Etc.
All rules pertaining to something from the basic rules section are references, just like the Unit Type Infantry references them too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Roknar wrote: Infantry being the default template has nothing to do with the infantry type being basic or advanced.
Infantry just happens to be the lowest common denominator to which no additional rules need to be added.
Infantry doesn't change anything from the basic principles, they even tell you that much.
Please explain.
1.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a
special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability
to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader
or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,
a swarm or even a tank).
2.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games
Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Explain this to me Roknar.
How is 1, more accurate than 2?
How can 2, state it applies to UNITS, but we are using critera for 1, that states it applies to SPECIFIC MODELS, rather than 2 to UNITS, in the UNIT TYPE, section?
I am having a bit of trouble understanding how we are making this leap.
Which of these is a specific model?
Unit 1
1 Tactical Marine Sargent model
4 Tactical Marines models
Unit 2
3 Jetbike models
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 03:51:45
So now we have a basic rule being discussed on a page outside of the core rules section.
You are getting hopelessly confused here. Mentioning does not entail containing.
There are no basic rules outside of the Core Rules section. Mentioning 'infantry' does not bring the basic rules that are required to be in the Core Rules section into the Unit Types section. Those basic rules for Infantry stay in the Core Rules section and are contained in the Core Rules section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry [i.e. in the Core Rules section], the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 04:05:03
So now we have a basic rule being discussed on a page outside of the core rules section.
You are getting hopelessly confused here.
There are no basic rules outside of the Core Rules section. Mentioning 'infantry' does not bring the basic rules that are required to be in the Core Rules section into the Unit Types section.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.
Infantry are the most common and dependable units in Warhammer 40,000. As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here.
No.
I am 100% not confused.
You are sir.
Movement is a basic rule, shooting is a basic rule, assaulting is a basic rule, morale is a basic rule, psyker powers are basic rules.
They are all located in the core rules section.
The rules located in the Unit Types section are just exactly that, Unit types. Unit types are explained in the core rules section.
The rules for movement, shooting, assaulting, morale etc that apply to different unit types are being explained.
All basic rules are still located in the core rules section.
What is discussed in the Unit Types section does not involve any NEW rules.
Basic vs advanced states this...
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
All rules located in the Unit Types section are for the above mentioned basic rules.
There are no new rules attempting to be presented in the unit types section.
It is merely providing you the unit profiles.
Just like if you flip to the back of the BRB you are provided the profiles for psyker powers. Those are not new rules, they are simply the profiles for rules located in the core rules section.
Another basic rule is choosing a weapon to shoot. The weaponry section profiles provides for the purpose of choosing a weapon, which is a basic rule, no new rules are mentioned.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GodDamUser wrote: I do feel Ceann is chasing a dead end here.. the point he is fishing for is just not there...
I feel like you are trying to meaninglessly gloat and don't actually know the rules.
Sorry for trying to teach you.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 04:08:08
The unit types section is chock-full of new rules.
Bikes cannot go to ground for example, that is a departure from the basic rules which state that you can go to ground.
They can move 12", that to is a departure from the default 6" inch and presents a change to the basic rules.
Aka, they are advanced rules that take precedence over the basic rules.
Or more simply put, the rules for models with the bike type do not apply to all models in the game.
By definition, they can't be basic rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 04:12:44
What is discussed in the Unit Types section does not involve any NEW rules.
Dude, you are still hopelessly confused.
The Unit Types section is all new rules.
This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st Millennium and the rules you will need to use them.
And the Unit Types section is all advanced rules.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
So the advanced rules in the Unit Type section will override any basic rules for infantry.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
A jump unit that is granted 12" movement overrides the basic infantry rule for 6" movement.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 04:17:48
Roknar wrote: The unit types section is chock-full of new rules.
Bikes cannot go to ground for example, that is a departure from the basic rules which state that you can go to ground.
They can move 12", that to is a departure from the default 6" inch and presents a change to the basic rules.
Aka, they are advanced rules that take precedence over the basic rules.
Roknar wrote: The unit types section is chock-full of new rules.
Bikes cannot go to ground for example, that is a departure from the basic rules which state that you can go to ground.
They can move 12", that to is a departure from the default 6" inch and presents a change to the basic rules.
Aka, they are advanced rules that take precedence over the basic rules.
Where are you finding that basic movement = 6"?
Page 18, Movement Distance:
"Models move up to 6" in the movement phase."
I'm on holiday and don't have my books, but it seems to me Ceann from what's been said that you're getting hung up on there being a mention of Infantry amongst part of the rules we're told are advanced rules, when that mention simply states it's already been dealt with in the Core Rules section and are basic rules.
If that's the case then I don't think the fact there is a mention in an advanced rules section, which refers back to it being dealt with already in the basic rules, therefore makes it an advanced rule, or both an advanced and a basic rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 04:17:56
Roknar wrote: The unit types section is chock-full of new rules.
Bikes cannot go to ground for example, that is a departure from the basic rules which state that you can go to ground.
They can move 12", that to is a departure from the default 6" inch and presents a change to the basic rules.
Aka, they are advanced rules that take precedence over the basic rules.
Where are you finding that basic movement = 6"?
Page 18, Movement Distance:
"Models move up to 6" in the movement phase."
Cool. Thats great.
What else does page 18 say?
Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency.
6" is the minimum value for unit movement. There is no unit that has a default value under 6"
You are not TOLD that 6" is the default value, ANYWHERE. You assume that without even reading the rest of the page.
Does a bike use the movement rules to move more than 6"?
Yes?
Then it is using the movement rules, which are a basic rule. The basic rules do NOT consist purely of the value "6".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 04:19:22
Mr. Shine wrote: I'm on holiday and don't have my books, but it seems to me Ceann from what's been said that you're getting hung up on there being a mention of Infantry amongst part of the rules we're told are advanced rules, when that mention simply states it's already been dealt with in the Core Rules section and are basic rules.
If that's the case then I don't think the fact there is a mention in an advanced rules section, which refers back to it being dealt with already in the basic rules, therefore makes it an advanced rule, or both an advanced and a basic rule.
