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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Captyn_Bob wrote:
It's going to be sad when in a couple of months 8th drops and all this wonderful debate becomes completely pointless and meaningless.


At that point we will have new stuff to debate!
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Cienne why ask a rules question when you don't want to listen to anyone else anewer.
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




Col.

Tell me any new rules that are CONTAINED in the Unit Types section.
Lets take a look at a beast for example.

BEASTS
Beasts are savage and swift-moving creatures.

1
MOVEMENT
Beasts can move up to 12" in the Movement phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult
terrain (even when charging) and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests.

2
FALL BACK MOVES
Beasts make Fall Back moves just like Infantry, except that they move 3D6".

3
SPECIAL RULES
Beasts have the Fleet special rule.


1. This is a movement rule
2. This is a movement rule.
3. This is an advanced rule.

The Core Rules section still contains all basic rules.
The Unit Types section has values for basic rules.
It is a reference section for values.

Just like weaponry is a reference for "Choose a Weapon"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
Cienne why ask a rules question when you don't want to listen to anyone else anewer.


Says the guy that thinks unusual grenades is a special rule?
I quoted you pages that told you the exact location of special rules in the BRB.
Unusual grenades is not one of them.

Your "argument" was verbal confetti with no pages sourced and nothing that contradicted the information I gave you.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 13:37:34


 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





Ceann wrote:
Col.

Tell me any new rules that are CONTAINED in the Unit Types section.
Lets take a look at a beast for example.

BEASTS
Beasts are savage and swift-moving creatures.

1
MOVEMENT
Beasts can move up to 12" in the Movement phase. Beasts are not slowed by difficult
terrain (even when charging) and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests.

2
FALL BACK MOVES
Beasts make Fall Back moves just like Infantry, except that they move 3D6".

3
SPECIAL RULES
Beasts have the Fleet special rule.


1. This is a movement rule
2. This is a movement rule.
3. This is an advanced rule.

The Core Rules section still contains all basic rules.
The Unit Types section has values for basic rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
Cienne why ask a rules question when you don't want to listen to anyone else anewer.


Says the guy that thinks unusual grenades is a special rule?
I quoted you pages that told you the exact location of special rules in the BRB.
Unusual grenades is not one of them.

Your "argument" was verbal confetti with no pages sourced and nothing that contradicted the information I gave you.


Ceann

1. Is an advanced rule. basic rule states you can move 6" only
2. Is an advanced rule. Basic rules states you fall back 2D6" only
3. Is a special rule (which are advanced rules). It is referencing fleet
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




I understand the thought process of why you are saying that. But I feel it is incorrect.

Per basic vs advanced.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.

1. Is this a move? Yes.
a. Can you tell me where it says you can move 6" only?
b. First page of movement rules - In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance state.

2. Is this a move? Yes.
a. How is this not using movement rules located in the core rules section? The values are different, you are still using the same rules to dictate how you move.

3. No arguments here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 14:00:13


 
   
Made in lu
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Captyn_Bob wrote:
It's going to be sad when in a couple of months 8th drops and all this wonderful debate becomes completely pointless and meaningless.

Why? I'm enjoying myself just find right now. Besides, I don't think this was ever a debate if you know what I mean .

Look Ceanne.
It's been easily ten different posters pointing out how your logic, on many points, is deeply flawed.
Including how you structure your own posts. You ask that people consider your perspective while repeatedly insulting their intelligence.

Has it ever occurred to you, even for just a second, that, perhaps, it might not be our understanding of the rules that is error?
If everybody else is wrong and you're the only one that understands, that's usually a good sign to re-evaluate your own beliefs.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




It's not a debate when ten people make a reasoned argument and one person calls the others stupid for not understanding it's effectively ten people arguin with a brick wall.

Cienne I gave you quotes and sections in the last thread I won't waste time in this one because either you are trolling so wont care or by now after 10+ people 2 threads and 20+pages are genuinely lacking the capacity to understand the rules in which case it is a waste of my time

also since I have always used section and quote a page number won't make it any more or less sound I have ten plus agreeing with me and you have none

If my argument was confetti and yours was solid it would be the other way round

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 14:32:29


 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




 Roknar wrote:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
It's going to be sad when in a couple of months 8th drops and all this wonderful debate becomes completely pointless and meaningless.

Why? I'm enjoying myself just find right now. Besides, I don't think this was ever a debate if you know what I mean .

Look Ceanne.
It's been easily ten different posters pointing out how your logic, on many points, is deeply flawed.
Including how you structure your own posts. You ask that people consider your perspective while repeatedly insulting their intelligence.

Has it ever occurred to you, even for just a second, that, perhaps, it might not be our understanding of the rules that is error?
If everybody else is wrong and you're the only one that understands, that's usually a good sign to re-evaluate your own beliefs.


If we talked to a large group of people and gave them a complicated problem.
It would logically work out that a much smaller number of people would solve the problem, than those who thought they solved it or guessed.
Lets compare 1000 doctors vs 10,000,000 people? I would take the medical opinion of the 1000 doctors, they clearly have more credible knowledge.
The issue here is that the arguments being presented, are not credible, they all either make leaps that do not exist, or assert things that are not asserted.

You guys keep getting stuck on language in Basic vs Advanced.
Many of you use this "models move 6" as your reasoning.

Explain to me Roknar please.

1. In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
a. maximum movement distance.

2. Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures....
a. keyword MOST creatures, 6" is not called the standard, or base movement, or anything.

3. Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency (see below).
a. again, maximum movement.


So WHY is 2. correct. Which states "MOST" not all.
But 1 and 3 from the SAME PAGE, are not basic rules?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 14:34:43


 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Ceann wrote:

If we talked to a large group of people and gave them a complicated problem.
It would logically work out that a much smaller number of people would solve the problem, than those who thought they solved it or guessed.
Lets compare 1000 doctors vs 10,000,000 people? I would take the medical opinion of the 1000 doctors, they clearly have more credible knowledge.


Okay cool, but where is your credibility then, since you think you've solved this but I've seen you blatantly wrong on other threads, while posters with much more credibility due to being in many more rules debates here and arguing their points in much more coherent and understandable ways are disagreeing with you on the vast majority of points.

If you want to play the credibility game, you've already lost.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Ceann wrote:
The rules are also not telling us that unit types is where advanced rules are located, nor are specific models located in unit types.

Why are you leaping to that conclusion?
By your very same logic, there can be basic rules in the Unit Types section, if there can be Advanced rules in the Core rules section.

The core rules section has been given a quantity of "all" for the basic rules.
So any rule involved with the basic rules is therefore also a basic rule.


Hoo boy, I guess the last thread wasn't enough.


Sorry if this is already covered, but I wanted to put this in before reading past this post of yours.

He is certainly not leaping to that conclusion.

As you stated the Core Rules section tells us that it contains "all" the basic rules. The consequence of this is that any section that is any additional rules in sections that are not the core rules section are by definition advanced rules because they are not part of "all" the rules in the basic section. So, all that's left is to look at where the Core Rules section ends. It ends just before the Unit Types section starts. This means any new rules starting in the Unit Types section are advanced rules.

We are told basic rules apply to all models. We know that all models have a unit type, but that does not make the unit type rules basic rules. Not all models are all unit types - Jetbikes are not artillery, are not beasts, so we know that each unit type being discussed is not applied to all models, so isn't a basic rule.

We know that, for example, we are told that bikes and jetbikes move up to 12". Now, we know that overrides the basic rule of moving up to 6" in the movement phase. Therefore, these rules have to be advanced rules. And, since the Core Rules section has ended, any rules after this section are also advanced rules.

This does mean your statement about advanced rules being only in codexes is wrong, as is the statement that all rules that are not special rules in the main rulebook are core rules. You ignore their own defiintion of what core rules are by trying to classify all non-special rules in the rulebook as basic rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 14:52:22


 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:
The rules are also not telling us that unit types is where advanced rules are located, nor are specific models located in unit types.

Why are you leaping to that conclusion?
By your very same logic, there can be basic rules in the Unit Types section, if there can be Advanced rules in the Core rules section.

The core rules section has been given a quantity of "all" for the basic rules.
So any rule involved with the basic rules is therefore also a basic rule.


Hoo boy, I guess the last thread wasn't enough.


Sorry if this is already covered, but I wanted to put this in before reading past this post of yours.

He is certainly not leaping to that conclusion.

As you stated the Core Rules section tells us that it contains "all" the basic rules. The consequence of this is that any section that is any additional rules in sections that are not the core rules section are by definition advanced rules because they are not part of "all" the rules in the basic section. So, all that's left is to look at where the Core Rules section ends. It ends just before the Unit Types section starts. This means any new rules starting in the Unit Types section are advanced rules.

We are told basic rules apply to all models. We know that all models have a unit type, but that does not make the unit type rules basic rules. Not all models are all unit types - Jetbikes are not artillery, are not beasts, so we know that each unit type being discussed is not applied to all models, so isn't a basic rule.

We know that, for example, we are told that bikes and jetbikes move up to 12". Now, we know that overrides the basic rule of moving up to 6" in the movement phase. Therefore, these rules have to be advanced rules. And, since the Core Rules section has ended, any rules after this section are also advanced rules.

This does mean your statement about advanced rules being only in codexes is wrong, as is the statement that all rules that are not special rules in the main rulebook are core rules. You ignore their own defiintion of what core rules are by trying to classify all non-special rules in the rulebook as basic rules.


Here is the issue.

You are NOT told that moving 6" is the STANDARD.
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, not what the standard for movement is.
The core rules tell what MOVEMENT is, what MOVEMENT means, how to use movement in the game.
The core rules tell you SHOOTING is, what SHOOTING means, how to use shooting in the game.

Lets try shooting for example.

What is the basic standard for shooting?
What is the range?
What is the profile?

Is a Storm Bolter a basic rule or an advanced rule?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 14:59:32


 
   
Made in lu
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Ceann wrote:


Explain to me Roknar please.

1. In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
a. maximum movement distance.

2. Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures....
a. keyword MOST creatures, 6" is not called the standard, or base movement, or anything.

3. Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency (see below).
a. again, maximum movement.


So WHY is 2. correct. Which states "MOST" not all.
But 1 and 3 from the SAME PAGE, are not basic rules?


I already have explained and I don't know how to make it any clearer.

All models move up to their maximum movement speed, that is irrespective of whatever the default is and doesn't conflict.

All models move up to 6". They even go on to say, still within "Movement Distance", that a model cannot end its move 6" away from where it started.
If other types moving more would be a basic rule then there would be a conflict here as their maximum move is 12 for example but they only get to move 6.

Your third point doesn't actually say anything. The core rules also use the word "special rules". According to that logic the entire BRB consists of only basic rules.
Other than that, the third point still does not conflict with the first two points of moving up to the maximum distance and basic movement being 6 inch.

The core rules have to account for advanced rules and know that there will be models with different speeds among other things.
In fact the basic vs advanced rule is itself a basic rule, which by your standards would make all advanced rules basic rules since they are mentioned in the core rules.
Which is obviously bolony.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Here is the issue according to Cienne - everyone else because they lack credibility.

However for everyone else it's Cienne who doesn't listen and who's argument's lack varacity

There are no doctors of 40k the closest would probably be regular etc/itc players and their TO''s but even then their is no formal academic training you just have to read everything in context


May I make a suggestion cienne it seems that 40k may not be right for you. You seem to have difficulty understanding the rules as everyone else does and this makes you very angry but never fear gw have war games designed with simplicity in mind where you wont have to worry about what is or isn't a special rule it's called age of sigmar and it's written expressly for those who find complex rules and tactical depth challengeing

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/21 15:37:21


 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Warrior




Morningside Table of Heck

Captyn_Bob wrote:It's going to be sad when in a couple of months 8th drops and all this wonderful debate becomes completely pointless and meaningless.

Or made completely worse. This is GW we are talking about, after all..

Ceann wrote:You are NOT told that moving 6" is the STANDARD.

Yes, we are. It is in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section of the Core Rules. No allowance in this specific portion of the rules allows for different distances to be moved. It does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type rules for the distance.

Ceann wrote:The basic rules tell you HOW to move, not what the standard for movement is.

Incorrect. It is in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section of the Core Rules. No allowance in this specific portion of the rules allows for different distances to be moved. It does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type rules for the distance.

Ceann wrote:The core rules tell what MOVEMENT is, what MOVEMENT means, how to use movement in the game.

Including Movement Distance.

Ceann wrote:The core rules tell you SHOOTING is, what SHOOTING means, how to use shooting in the game.

Correct. It also tells us to use the different Types involved with the Shooting. Types include Special Rules.

Ceann wrote:What is the basic standard for shooting?

* Models must be able to see the target.
* Models must be in range of any of the Weapons they carry.
* Take Type in to account when noting different affects.
* Use the BS Characteristic of the model to determine Chances To Hit.
* Use the Strength Characteristic of the Weapon to determine Chances To Wound.
* Use the majority Toughness of the unit when comparing to the Strength of the Weapon.
* Individual models have Wounds Allocated to them, with the model nearest to the Shooting unit.
* Individual models may roll to Save against the Wound Allocated to them.
* They may only use one Save against the Wound.
* Player determines the best Save, except when choosing between Cover Saves.
* Remove models who have not Saved against more Wounds than they have.

Ceann wrote:What is the range?

Nothing defined here, we are told to refer to the range on the Weapon's Profile. This is distinctly different from Movement Distance which does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type to determine the model's Movement Distance. It is set at 6", no variances noted.

Ceann wrote:What is the profile?

The listing of Characteristics of the Weapon.

No Movement Characteristic is noted for models. The is entirely contained within the Basic Rules, Unite Types, or Special Rules the model may have obtained.

Ceann wrote:Is a Storm Bolter a basic rule or an advanced rule?

It is Wargear. Much like a model, Wargear may be carrying Advanced Rules within it. In this case, unless we consider the Assault Type as Advanced Rules, it does not. Indeed, the Assault Type of Shooting Weapon is probably the most Basic of Weapon Types as it does nothing to change anything about how Shooting happens nor affects how Assault occurs.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Rules assessments I present do not reflect a consideration of any specific group, but only on the written word which we all share. 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




 Roknar wrote:
Ceann wrote:


Explain to me Roknar please.

1. In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
a. maximum movement distance.

2. Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures....
a. keyword MOST creatures, 6" is not called the standard, or base movement, or anything.

3. Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency (see below).
a. again, maximum movement.


So WHY is 2. correct. Which states "MOST" not all.
But 1 and 3 from the SAME PAGE, are not basic rules?


I already have explained and I don't know how to make it any clearer.

All models move up to their maximum movement speed, that is irrespective of whatever the default is and doesn't conflict.

All models move up to 6". They even go on to say, still within "Movement Distance", that a model cannot end its move 6" away from where it started.
If other types moving more would be a basic rule then there would be a conflict here as their maximum move is 12 for example but they only get to move 6.

Your third point doesn't actually say anything. The core rules also use the word "special rules". According to that logic the entire BRB consists of only basic rules.
Other than that, the third point still does not conflict with the first two points of moving up to the maximum distance and basic movement being 6 inch.

The core rules have to account for advanced rules and know that there will be models with different speeds among other things.
In fact the basic vs advanced rule is itself a basic rule, which by your standards would make all advanced rules basic rules since they are mentioned in the core rules.
Which is obviously bolony.


Your process is flawed. Lets do this.

I want to know about advanced rules, I have no idea what an advanced rule is.
I look at the index of the BRB, it states page 13 is advanced rules.
The only specific location I am given that tells me where advanced rules are located is "Army List Entry or other GW publications".
Does it tell me, go to the unit types section?
No.
   
Made in lu
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






I was struggling to come up with an appropriate answer to that, but the only thing that comes to mind is an emphatic "Wut? Oo"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 15:46:31


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Ceann wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:
The rules are also not telling us that unit types is where advanced rules are located, nor are specific models located in unit types.

Why are you leaping to that conclusion?
By your very same logic, there can be basic rules in the Unit Types section, if there can be Advanced rules in the Core rules section.

The core rules section has been given a quantity of "all" for the basic rules.
So any rule involved with the basic rules is therefore also a basic rule.


Hoo boy, I guess the last thread wasn't enough.


Sorry if this is already covered, but I wanted to put this in before reading past this post of yours.

He is certainly not leaping to that conclusion.

As you stated the Core Rules section tells us that it contains "all" the basic rules. The consequence of this is that any section that is any additional rules in sections that are not the core rules section are by definition advanced rules because they are not part of "all" the rules in the basic section. So, all that's left is to look at where the Core Rules section ends. It ends just before the Unit Types section starts. This means any new rules starting in the Unit Types section are advanced rules.

We are told basic rules apply to all models. We know that all models have a unit type, but that does not make the unit type rules basic rules. Not all models are all unit types - Jetbikes are not artillery, are not beasts, so we know that each unit type being discussed is not applied to all models, so isn't a basic rule.

We know that, for example, we are told that bikes and jetbikes move up to 12". Now, we know that overrides the basic rule of moving up to 6" in the movement phase. Therefore, these rules have to be advanced rules. And, since the Core Rules section has ended, any rules after this section are also advanced rules.

This does mean your statement about advanced rules being only in codexes is wrong, as is the statement that all rules that are not special rules in the main rulebook are core rules. You ignore their own defiintion of what core rules are by trying to classify all non-special rules in the rulebook as basic rules.


Here is the issue.

You are NOT told that moving 6" is the STANDARD.


"Models more up to 6" in the Movement phase." (page 18) That pretty much looks like we ARE being told 6" is the standard. Yes, they have a rule later on how to handle models with different movement rates, but they did not DEFINE any other movement rates. This means that anything that has a different movement rate would have to replace the rule that they state on page 18 that models move up to 6". We are never told that a basic rule overrides another basic rule, only that an advance rule will override a basic rule. This means any movement rules in the Unit Types section that do not move 6" are advanced rules. Which should really be obvious to you, since we are no longer in the Core Rules section, and therefore are not in the section that has all the basic rules we need. Any new rules in this section are advanced rules, and able to override rules in the Core Rules section if necessary.


Ceann wrote:
The basic rules tell you HOW to move, not what the standard for movement is.


Disproved above.

Ceann wrote:
The core rules tell what MOVEMENT is, what MOVEMENT means, how to use movement in the game.


This does not mean that all rules dealing with movement are basic rules. Fleet, for example, lets you reroll a movement distance. It is a special rule and therefore an advanced rule. Basic rules apply to all models; unit type rules apply to that specific unit type and therefore are not applied to all models. Movement rules for unit types are not applied to all models, only to models with that unit type, therefore they are not basic rules. You make the mistake of assuming that because the basic rules deal with movement, shooting, close combat and morale, that all rules dealing with movement, shooting, close combat and morale are basic rules. This isn't true. All Crimson Fists are Space Marines, but not all Space Marines are Crimson Fists. All Basic rules dealing with movement rules are movement rules, but not all movement rules are basic rules dealing with movement.



Ceann wrote:
Is a Storm Bolter a basic rule or an advanced rule?


Given that a boltgun is given as an example of s special kind of weapon cited in the advanced rules paragraph on page 13, the rules for a Storm Bolter would be advance rules. Or are you trying to say that page 13 was lying to us when using boltgun as an example of an advanced rule? Note that storm bolters are contained in the appendix, not in the core rules section - supplementary evidence they are not basic rules.
   
Made in us
Discriminating Warrior




Morningside Table of Heck

U02dah4 wrote:
Here is the issue according to Cienne - everyone else because they lack credibility.

You may want to correct the name you are using. It lends more veracity to your statements.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Rules assessments I present do not reflect a consideration of any specific group, but only on the written word which we all share. 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




Charistoph wrote: Incorrect. It is in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section of the Core Rules. No allowance in this specific portion of the rules allows for different distances to be moved. It does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type rules for the distance.



PAGE 18 BRB.

Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).

First paragraph of The Movement Phase.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Roknar wrote:
I was struggling to come up with an appropriate answer to that, but the only thing that comes to mind is an emphatic "Wut? Oo"


To quote War Games - The only way to win, is not to play.
   
Made in us
Discriminating Warrior




Morningside Table of Heck

Ceann wrote:Your process is flawed. Lets do this.

I want to know about advanced rules, I have no idea what an advanced rule is.
I look at the index of the BRB, it states page 13 is advanced rules.
The only specific location I am given that tells me where advanced rules are located is "Army List Entry or other GW publications".
Does it tell me, go to the unit types section?
No.

No, it does not state that the Advanced Rules are located on the Army List Entry, just that they are indicated on the Army List Entry. Do you know the difference between "indicate" and "locate"?

It provides the definition for Advanced Rules in the very place you looked it up. It also provides examples which can be found throughout the rulebook, such as what it means to be a "bike" or "tank".

Furthermore, in the following paragraph, it states that rules found in a codex will take precedence over Advanced Rules found in the rulebook.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Rules assessments I present do not reflect a consideration of any specific group, but only on the written word which we all share. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Ceann wrote:
ur process is flawed. Lets do this.

I want to know about advanced rules, I have no idea what an advanced rule is.
I look at the index of the BRB, it states page 13 is advanced rules.
The only specific location I am given that tells me where advanced rules are located is "Army List Entry or other GW publications".
Does it tell me, go to the unit types section?
No.


You misrepresent. First, the location you reference tells us Unit Entries are advanced rules, but they say "advanced rules that apply to units". The next paragraph starts with "where advanced rules apply to a specific model", so that means there can be advanced rules for specific models, which would not be covered by the "advanced rules that apply to units" statement you cite, so therefore there have to be advanced rules in other locations. Second, I need to bring up again that we are told that the core rules section contains "all" the basic rules we need. Therefore, any rules we find outside the core rules section are by definition not basic rules since they're rules not listed in the section with "all" the basic rules we need, which makes them by definition advanced rules. It does require you to be able to have the knowledge to be able to read the book and know when you hit a different section, and to see if the rule is also listed in the core rules section. Infantry rules state that they are all covered by the basic rules. Other unit rules which introduce new rules - special rules or otherwise, are advanced rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 15:59:43


 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




Which of these is a more specific statement?

1.
PAGE 18 BRB.

Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).

2.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
   
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Ceann wrote:
Charistoph wrote: Incorrect. It is in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section of the Core Rules. No allowance in this specific portion of the rules allows for different distances to be moved. It does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type rules for the distance.



PAGE 18 BRB.

Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).

First paragraph of The Movement Phase.


And their movement rules are still advanced rules as they do not apply to all models, and they override that page 18 statement that models move at 6". If they were a basic rule, they do not have permission to override the statement that models move at 6".
   
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Captyn_Bob wrote:
 Roknar wrote:
I was struggling to come up with an appropriate answer to that, but the only thing that comes to mind is an emphatic "Wut? Oo"


To quote War Games - The only way to win, is not to play.

But then I'd miss out on all the fun
   
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Ceann wrote:
Charistoph wrote: Incorrect. It is in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section of the Core Rules. No allowance in this specific portion of the rules allows for different distances to be moved. It does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type rules for the distance.



PAGE 18 BRB.

Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).

First paragraph of The Movement Phase.

Different "ways", not different "distances". Note the difference.

A way of movement is ignoring Terrain, or treating Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain. Review Thrust in this regard.

A Distance of Movement is how far it goes. 6" is the standard, anything else is not a standard. You mentioned in the other thread that the Movement of a Flyer is outside the standard as it required a minimum movement. Yet, this follows the same standards for allowing a unit to move 12". You are applying a double standard in stating that Zooming movement is Advanced, but Beast Movement is Basic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/21 16:05:48


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Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Rules assessments I present do not reflect a consideration of any specific group, but only on the written word which we all share. 
   
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 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:
 Roknar wrote:

Your process is flawed. Lets do this.

I want to know about advanced rules, I have no idea what an advanced rule is.
I look at the index of the BRB, it states page 13 is advanced rules.
The only specific location I am given that tells me where advanced rules are located is "Army List Entry or other GW publications".
Does it tell me, go to the unit types section?
No.


You misrepresent. First, the location you reference tells us Unit Entries are advanced rules, but they say "advanced rules that apply to units". The next paragraph starts with "where advanced rules apply to a specific model", so that means there can be advanced rules for specific models, which would not be covered by the "advanced rules that apply to units" statement you cite, so therefore there have to be advanced rules in other locations. Second, I need to bring up again that we are told that the core rules section contains "all" the basic rules we need. Therefore, any rules we find outside the core rules section are by definition not basic rules since they're rules not listed in the section with "all" the basic rules we need, which makes them by definition advanced rules. It does require you to be able to have the knowledge to be able to read the book and know when you hit a different section, and to see if the rule is also listed in the core rules section. Infantry rules state that they are all covered by the basic rules. Other unit rules which introduce new rules - special rules or otherwise, are advanced rules.


This is 100% disingenuous.

It says... SO FAR, they have discussed all the basic rule as they PERTAIN TO INFANTRY.
What does "So far" mean? (of a trend that seems likely to continue) up to this time.
TO CONTINUE.
What does "pertain to" mean? related, or applicable

People are cherry picking specific terms and words and ignoring the others.


   
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Ceann wrote:
People are cherry picking specific terms and words and ignoring the others.

Pot, meet microwave.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Rules assessments I present do not reflect a consideration of any specific group, but only on the written word which we all share. 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Charistoph wrote: Incorrect. It is in Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section of the Core Rules. No allowance in this specific portion of the rules allows for different distances to be moved. It does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type rules for the distance.



PAGE 18 BRB.

Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book (pg61-71).

First paragraph of The Movement Phase.

Different "ways", not different "distances". Note the difference.

A way of movement is ignoring Terrain, or treating Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain. Review Thrust in this regard.

A Distance of Movement is how far it goes. 6" is the standard, anything else is not a standard. You mentioned in the other thread that the Movement of a Flyer is outside the standard as it required a minimum movement. Yet, this follows the same standards for allowing a unit to move 12". You are applying a double standard in stating that Zooming movement is Advanced, but Beast Movement is Basic.


Everything you just said is irrelevant Charistoph.
Regardless of the words you want to gather from deconstruction what the rule says.
IT has the SPECIFIC page numbers.

Before your "models can move 6" is even mentioned, as a whisper.
We are told that those pages apply to the basic rules of movement.
   
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Ceann, for more evidence that you are dealing with advanced rules in the Unit Types section, let's consider the Bikes and Jetbikes section. Ir leads off with Armoured Steed rules, which are separate from the Special Rules section for Bikes and Jetbikes. We are told that they get a +1 toughness (included in profile for a unit that already gets them as wargear), that they cannot go to ground and that they cannot be pinned.

The toughness increase modifies (overrides) the basic stat. Not being able to go to ground and not being able to be pinned override the basic rules for going to ground (pinning refers you back to the basic rules for going to ground). Since you are overriding the Go to Ground rule with this rule, it has to be an advanced rule.
   
 
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