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 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Should we stop Car drivers because that does from accidents?
Should we stop people from eating processed food because it ruins your insides?
Should we...
Should We..

No, we shouldnt. We educate, tell them the effects, then, if they still do, let them on their way.

Smoking massively outstrips nearly anything you could list short of heart disease.

Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day.1

For every person who dies because of smoking, at least 30 people live with a serious smoking-related illness.

Compare that to ALL accidental deaths, of which cars are less than 40,000 a year.

Education has actually had a profound effect on smoking. It's basically be cut by 50% over the last 70 years since mass anti-smoking campaigns started being launched in the 90s throughout the western world, but I see no reason why tobacco products should be specially exempt from labeling laws. Drugs and chemicals are required to list their hazardous (potential or otherwise) effects, and it's pretty stupid we allow companies to do that in fine print to begin with. Things should be very plainly and largely marked according to how dangerous they are.

EDIT: For further comparison, alcohol is 88,000 deaths annually.

 daedalus wrote:
feeder, how do you feel about alcohol then? Or red meat? Or soda? Or anything with salt or sugar in it?

Not analogous; these things are bad if consumed excessively, tobacco is bad if consumed at all.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
feeder, how do you feel about alcohol then? Or red meat? Or soda? Or anything with salt or sugar in it?

Not analogous; these things are bad if consumed excessively, tobacco is bad if consumed at all.

Sorry, daedalus, I missed this earlier. While Ninth Musketeer has said essentially what I would say, I have no sympathy for those who choose to wreck their health with consistent poor choices.

 Frazzled wrote:
Who decides that? Will they still have such authority post Brexit?

It will directly effect everyone in the 27 remaining countries, so yes its news.

The UK has similar policies anyway.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
feeder, how do you feel about alcohol then? Or red meat? Or soda? Or anything with salt or sugar in it?

Not analogous; these things are bad if consumed excessively, tobacco is bad if consumed at all.

Well, I mean, I can find a pile of studies suggesting even one soda a day is pretty bad for you. I guess that may or may not be considered "excessive" by some, but I think it's genuinely more bad for you than the average person would believe.

This is probably the best researched and cited summary of bad-soda-things I'm inclined to spend time looking for: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-drinks/soft-drinks-and-disease/#ref46

 feeder wrote:
The problem arises when the freedom to choose to smoke collides with the cost of public healthcare. I resent my public healthcare costs being higher because someone is too stupid to choose not to smoke.

So just tax the hell out of it and make sure that tax goes back in to healthcare, that way they can pay for the healthcare they use.

It's not going to be perfect, but if you have enough stats you can probably estimate the average cost to the healthcare system per cigarette sold, add that much additional tax and ensure that it actually gets fed back in to healthcare instead of getting eaten up by other government money sinks.

Of course I more dislike having to inhale other peoples' smoke in public places, even if they pay for their own health care I still don't like it. Selfish bastards. It's like farting in every elevator you walk in to and wondering why people don't like you afterwards.

Feel free to smoke on your own property of course.

I had a good old laugh when my work banned smoking on the property, even outdoors. For the first couple of weeks people would be gathering outside the gate (which is about 5 minutes walk from the actual office buildings). After a while I stopped seeing them, I wonder if they found a hole to hide in, gave up smoking or all quit their jobs

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The EU Tobacco Products Directive came in last May, 2016 as an advisory. It becomes full law on the 20th of May this year.

The main provisions are:

Minimum size of rolling tobacco is 30g.
Minimum size of ready made cigarettes is pack of 20 sticks.
All packaging must follow a standard design in terms of colour, font for the name, lack of logos, and 35% of the surface area to be covered with photos showing medical consequences of smoking.
There are various other points to do with cigars and vaping equipment, not worth listing in detail.

One of the key effects is to make a packet of fags cost nearly £10. This is a huge deterrent to youngsters taking up smoking.

I had first hand experience of this operating in my previous job as a licensed retailer managing an off-licence. From the New Year until I left the job in mid-March, more and more people would come in, ask for the cheapest bag of rolly or pack of fags, and go away without purchasing because "It is too expensive."

Although we sold a lot of tobacco in my shop, it was always declining long-term, and these new laws just accelerate it to the point where fairly soon the new manager will cut the tobacco shelving in half and use the space for more booze.

Whats an advisory? Did anyone actually vote on this law?

An advisory is an announcement about how the law is going to change, to give people affected reasonable time (a year, in this case) to modify packaging etc to comply.

I started to see the new packaging late last year. I de-listed nearly all non-compliant products in February, except for a few very high volume items (like Marlboro Gold Kingsize 10s) so that I could sell through my remaining stocks.

The directive was voted through by the EU parliament and implemented as law in the UK by the UK government via a statutory instrument.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/507/pdfs/uksi_20160507_en.pdf

Coolio

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Sugar, Red Meat, most processed food and much much more causes things way worse then Smoking feeder.
#1 killer in america is heart disease.

Smoking causes Heart Disease.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Sugar, Red Meat, most processed food and much much more causes things way worse then Smoking feeder.
#1 killer in america is heart disease.

Smoking causes Heart Disease.

Indeed. Smoking poisons literally every part of you. Lung cancer being the most famous doesn't make it the only complication.

 LordofHats wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Sugar, Red Meat, most processed food and much much more causes things way worse then Smoking feeder.
#1 killer in america is heart disease.

Smoking causes Heart Disease.

Indeed. Smoking poisons literally every part of you. Lung cancer being the most famous doesn't make it the only complication.

It's almost like inhaling tar is bad for you, who knew?

No one before the 1950s apparently

Back in those days it was good for you.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Back in those days it was good for you.

This makes you think. What if in 60 years, toothbrush paste, recomended by 9 of every 10 dentist, will be discover to be totally dangerous?
Hippocratic oath? Ha! Not when Mister Green is in my pocket!

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I think smoking should be discouraged as much as possible. As it stands now, it is still way too easy to get cigarettes. I don't think the issue is with the packaging or even the price of cigarettes, but rather with the ridiculous amount of places you can buy them. You can get cigarettes on practically every street corner. That should change. Cigarettes imo should only be available at specific places.

We're way ahead of you here in Finland then. Every outlet (shop, kiosk, restaurant, whatever) that sells tobacco products had to be registered since I don't know when, but it was cheap. But from the start of this year the shops have to pay something like 500€ yearly for every teller that sells the stuff. Small places already quit selling because it's not worth it - the prices per pack are already predetermined by the govt and so the profit is also predetermined, and beating the price of the seller's license just isn't possible for someone who only sells a few packs a day.

Otherwise, well, tobacco is taxed (heavily) because it causes health problems. If the govt wants to deny a smoker health care they'd better stop taxing it as he's mostly harming himself.

Well, while I typically believe everything in moderation, and I typically don't care too much about what people do and how they choose to live their lives (so long as they aren't hurting anyone else) I do hate all smoking products and would love to see them go away. My parents smoked the whole time I was a kid and we traveled a lot, and I hated being woken up in a hotel room from smoke since it was the first thing that my parents did when they woke up.

They would smoke in the car, on airplanes (which had smoking sections back then, and so on. I hated it. In college I worked in the smoking sections in restaurants and hated that too. Thankfully they banned most of that in my town, and looking back, still can't believe that was allowed. Its one thing to pollute your own lungs, its another to do it to others around you.

Many years later my Mom quit, and a few years ago my Dad did too, but it was too late for him. A year after he had quit, he found out he had lung cancer that spread to other organs and passed away a month after it being identified.

Today we all know the dangers, but decades ago cigarette companies lied and tried to hide the dangers from its users, and that I have a huge problem with. Yes, my Dad made a choice, but became addicted at a time when these companies could get away with lying about their products, and worse, make money off of doing that. If I could skin alive the people who made the decisions to do that to people I would.

Thankfully rather than follow my parents (which you might think I would being near it all the time), I hate and are disgusted by smoking in all its forms. I hate ashtrays, and especially cigarette butts than are carelessly thrown around without a care.

And I certainly aren't innocent either. I did my share of booze and drugs growing up, and ate unhealthy. All that has changed now. I limit drinking to mostly when socializing, don't touch drugs, and mostly eat organic now. They are not decisions I expect everyone to make, and we all have our own vices, but I really wish people would look long and hard about what they consume. You will pay for it one way or another, whether it might cost more eating organic, or in the form of medical bills if you don't take care of yourself. And keep in mind if you have a family I am sure they love you and to lose someone to something like cigarettes is such a waste.

I would like to see the companies that manufactured these things and hid the problems with them burned to the ground. I am so thankful that at least in the US, the younger generations aren't smoking like the older ones.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Non- smoker who dies when he gets a whiff of second hand smoke....
I think its dumb, let people in life make their own choice and dont punish them for it. Educate them, but after that, let them do what they want.
San-Fran just banned(Or is about too) Flavored tobacco because it appeals to kids, Not thinking "KIDS SHOULDNT BE SOLD IT IN THE FIRST PLACE"
Let people live their life, Tobacco is the new alchoho and a new prohibition is here

Agreed. Nobody puts a gun to your head and makes you smoke (or drink....or have unprotected sex....or eat junk food....or...etc, etc, etc,).



People have known the dangers of smoking since forever. The Federal Government has required warning labels on cigarette packs since 1970. And I've seen pics of anti-smoking warning posters dating back to 1910. But people continue to smoke. And that should be their choice to be stupid, as long as it doesn't bother me (and I say this being one of those who smokes the occasional pipe and expensive cigar, and indulges in a bit of smokeless tobacco here and there while working on hobby projects).

The only problem with smoking is that is not a thing that only affect you. Thats why it should be forbidden in closed public spaces, and even some open.
Here is forbid to smoke in places like a line to the cinema, in bus stops, etc...
If you want to smoke in your house, club, private space, etc... do as you want. I would say that parents that smoke in house with kids are totally irresponsable, but just like parents giving their kids a fanatical education, being alcoholic in house, etc, etc...
I'm personally one of those no-smoker that can smell the most minimal scent of tobacco in kilometres, and it totally sickenss me, so maybe I'm a little biased

 Galas wrote:
The only problem with smoking is that is not a thing that only affect you. Thats why it should be forbidden in closed public spaces, and even some open.
Here is forbid to smoke in places like a line to the cinema, in bus stops, etc...
If you want to smoke in your house, club, private space, etc... do as you want. I would say that parents that smoke in house with kids are totally irresponsable, but just like parents giving their kids a fanatical education, being alcoholic in house, etc, etc...
I'm personally one of those no-smoker that can smell the most minimal scent of tobacco in kilometres, and it totally sickenss me, so maybe I'm a little biased

I can get behind not allowing smoking in closed in spaces. But outside or wide open areas is one area we have to disagree on.

 Galas wrote:
The only problem with smoking is that is not a thing that only affect you. Thats why it should be forbidden in closed public spaces, and even some open.
Here is forbid to smoke in places like a line to the cinema, in bus stops, etc...
If you want to smoke in your house, club, private space, etc... do as you want. I would say that parents that smoke in house with kids are totally irresponsable, but just like parents giving their kids a fanatical education, being alcoholic in house, etc, etc...
I'm personally one of those no-smoker that can smell the most minimal scent of tobacco in kilometres, and it totally sickenss me, so maybe I'm a little biased

I used to smoke a hookah, but I quit some months ago because my blood pressure was out of control (and it did actually help more than I thought it would), so maybe I'm a little numb about stuff like smells. Really, I never liked the smell of cigarette smoke myself though, but at the same time, I feel like I struggle to tolerate a crying child far and beyond the second hand smoke that someone gives off outside a building. Talking totally outside of health concerns, that is.

I used to do tons of hookah, can't stand cigarettes through, they're turbo gross and the smell sticks to everything forever.

Hookah you can walk into a room a couple minutes after someone finished a 45 minute smoke session and never know it happened, or if you smell anything, it's likely whatever fruity flavor was in there. With cigarettes, not only does it smell awful, but the smell can stick around for days with even just one.

I'll still do the occasional celebratory cigar however.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I used to do tons of hookah, can't stand cigarettes through, they're turbo gross and the smell sticks to everything forever.

Hookah you can walk into a room a couple minutes after someone finished a 45 minute smoke session and never know it happened, or if you smell anything, it's likely whatever fruity flavor was in there. With cigarettes, not only does it smell awful, but the smell can stick around for days with even just one.

I'll still do the occasional celebratory cigar however.

I remember the house of a friend of mine as a child where both their grandfather, grandmother, and his two parents smoked EVERY MOMENT. The white walls where yellow and you practically could see the nicotine sweating from those damm walls. I think I lost 5-10 years of life from all the days I spent sleeping there

Gross.

My grandmothers place got pretty bad, walking in there was like a punch in the face.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
I can get behind not allowing smoking in closed in spaces. But outside or wide open areas is one area we have to disagree on.

If you're outside in a queue to get into somewhere and the person next to you is blowing out smoke then it is functionally the same as them standing next to you inside.

Functionally the best way to handle it is to have designated smoking areas, either indoor or outdoor, and make smoking in an unmarked or undesignated space punishable by fine.

Most employers have rules along the lines of "no smoking within 20 feet of the door" that their employees always ignore. An employer isn't going to fire a good worker just because of a small rules violation, but it seriously peeves me that it's impossible to walk into a Wal-mart around here without first finding the light house to guide you through the vile tar cloud left by the 10 or 15 smokers who just took a smoke break.

People who smoke indoors thought particularly peeve me. If I may vent, I have a roommate who despite our lease saying no smoking in the apartment does nothing but smoke when not black out drunk. He'll hot box (with tobacco that is, he smokes weed too which smells pretty bad but not as bad to me as cigs) in his room for hours, and then open every door in the place to "air it out" which is code for "spread this vile poison everywhere because I'm too lazy to walk five feet to the door and kill myself outside." So glad I'm not going to be here in a week.

 LordofHats wrote:
Functionally the best way to handle it is to have designated smoking areas, either indoor or outdoor, and make smoking in an unmarked or undesignated space punishable by fine.

Most employers have rules along the lines of "no smoking within 20 feet of the door" that their employees always ignore. An employer isn't going to fire a good worker just because of a small rules violation, but it seriously peeves me that it's impossible to walk into a Wal-mart around here without first finding the light house to guide you through the vile tar cloud left by the 10 or 15 smokers who just took a smoke break.

People who smoke indoors thought particularly peeve me. If I may vent, I have a roommate who despite our lease saying no smoking in the apartment does nothing but smoke when not black out drunk. He'll hot box (with tobacco that is, he smokes weed too which smells pretty bad but not as bad to me as cigs) in his room for hours, and then open every door in the place to "air it out" which is code for "spread this vile poison everywhere because I'm too lazy to walk five feet to the door and kill myself outside." So glad I'm not going to be here in a week.

In my college years I had my cousin in my apartment during two months because he was doing some exams, and he just smoke weed all the time in his room and it was basically the same situation. All the house with that odor. Urgh, disgusting. In the positive side, those two months my head was lighter and I found everything more funny
After that I just looked for apartment companions that didn't smoke.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
I can get behind not allowing smoking in closed in spaces. But outside or wide open areas is one area we have to disagree on.

If you're outside in a queue to get into somewhere and the person next to you is blowing out smoke then it is functionally the same as them standing next to you inside.

Yeah, basically that. If you are smoking in a park, I can just move away from the smoke, but if I'm in queue for the cinema for example, I don't want to spend 20 minutes behind a chimmey. I think is very unpolite to do that.

It is disgusting. I didn't realize how smoke gets everywhere when you live with a smoker. The smell is a pain in the ass to get out of clothes. I will be content to never live with another smoker ever again (or a drinker, or someone who thinks every waking moment of their life is a night club - I will never use Bass ever again, this guy has ruined it forever).

 LordofHats wrote:
...I will never use Bass ever again, this guy has ruined it forever.

As in the fish or...?

Even when I smoked I never smoked in the house because I knew what it could do to walls, electronics, and clothe. I would always go outside to have a smoke.

 Ahtman wrote:
Even when I smoked I never smoked in the house because I knew what it could do to walls, electronics, and clothe. I would always go outside to have a smoke.

Everyone in my childhood home smoked, and it did foul up electronics something fierce. My father once had to pick up the TV (old glass tube thing) and carry it out because it actually started burning when all that tar and glued-on dust caught fire. Imagine that in a home where you leave stuff on at all times, like how many people leave their PC to run virus scans, compute star charts or whatever over night. Ouch.