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Martel732 wrote:
I say a bit overcosted because they are too expensive to have AV 12 sides, imo.

"Autocannons won't get you anywhere. You need Lascannons"

Statistically identical vs AV 12.

Knights are AV13.

Autocannon has a 5.5% chance of dealing damage to a knight with a 3+ Invul.

Lascannon has an 8.3% chance of dealing damage in the same scenario.

Autocannon firing on the flank or rear of the knight has a 10.8% chance of dealing damage.

Lascannon firing on the flank or rear has 11.1% chance of dealing damage.


A consideration though, is that Lascannons can get an "Explodes" result, and if you're firing a dozen a turn, not to mention meltaguns and Vanquisher tanks guns, you're going to eventually get lucky and strip some more wounds than one.

I think deep-striking Obliterators might work out. It would allow you to circumvent their shield array and have they caught in a heavy gun crossfire.

Reread his post. All the words.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I say a bit overcosted because they are too expensive to have AV 12 sides, imo.

"Autocannons won't get you anywhere. You need Lascannons"

Statistically identical vs AV 12.

Knights are AV13.

Autocannon has a 5.5% chance of dealing damage to a knight with a 3+ Invul.

Lascannon has an 8.3% chance of dealing damage in the same scenario.

Autocannon firing on the flank or rear of the knight has a 10.8% chance of dealing damage.

Lascannon firing on the flank or rear has 11.1% chance of dealing damage.


A consideration though, is that Lascannons can get an "Explodes" result, and if you're firing a dozen a turn, not to mention meltaguns and Vanquisher tanks guns, you're going to eventually get lucky and strip some more wounds than one.

I think deep-striking Obliterators might work out. It would allow you to circumvent their shield array and have they caught in a heavy gun crossfire.

I wish Knights were AV 13.

Yes, explodes is a thing, but I prefer not to count on it. Plan on hull pointing the thing out. It's harder with baronial court, but that makes crossfire much more important, along with obj sec.

I've had success flanking Knights with flyers (with my Space Marines) and Sentinels (with my Guard). The high volume of strength 7 and 8 attacks really do work, especially if you stick some lascannon in the front arc to force tough choices with the ion shield.

I'm not really familiar with Chaos Marines, but perhaps Forge Fiends could be pressed into service as a flanker to put the Knights on the horns of dilemma. Or take a Mauler Fiend or two and load them up with the tentacles that take away attacks. I saw two of them go into Guilliman and they tied him up for a long time, so they should be able to do the same to a knight (barring great stomp results, obviously).

Martel732 wrote:


I wish Knights were AV 13.

Yes, explodes is a thing, but I prefer not to count on it. Plan on hull pointing the thing out. It's harder with baronial court, but that makes crossfire much more important, along with obj sec.

They're 13/12/12, IIRC.

I said that earlier in the thread. But its pretty easy to outnumber them and get access to av12 facings.

I still think they're impossible to deal with. We're talking about 3 knights with 3++. In a 2000 pts game.

Martel732 wrote:
Allegedly. That gives GW far too much credit.

Your magical terrain that no one ever seems to have on hand also makes it very difficult to put the knights in a crossfire until they are right on top of you. Said terrain just creates new problems in a game like 40K.

Not magical, just practical. 7e is balanced around a cluttered City Fight table, not an open field with low hills. Tall models are balanced versus short models by taller, line of sight blocking terrain. If a model can line of sight you from across the table and it is an issue for you, you failled at setting up your table. Buildings are super cheap to make, common ceral boxes a far taller than Knights and Riptides. All tables these days need 2-3 tall LoS blocking terrain center pieces as well as a good selection of cover granting secondary terrain pieces. If you aren't doing that, it you that are choosing to play at a disadvantage.

Also, Knight arm and hull weapons are forward facing only, with just a 22.5 degree pivot, forcing the Knight player to have to choose facings very carefully. You can plan on where you opponent will need to be to get a shot off, and set up your units to get flanking shots when the Knight moves in place. That's an easier strategy than playing chess.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Allegedly. That gives GW far too much credit.

Your magical terrain that no one ever seems to have on hand also makes it very difficult to put the knights in a crossfire until they are right on top of you. Said terrain just creates new problems in a game like 40K.

Not magical, just practical. 7e is balanced around a cluttered City Fight table, not an open field with low hills. Tall models are balanced versus short models by taller, line of sight blocking terrain. If a model can line of sight you from across the table and it is an issue for you, you failled at setting up your table. Buildings are super cheap to make, common ceral boxes a far taller than Knights and Riptides. All tables these days need 2-3 tall LoS blocking terrain center pieces as well as a good selection of cover granting secondary terrain pieces. If you aren't doing that, it you that are choosing to play at a disadvantage.

Also, Knight arm and hull weapons are forward facing only, with just a 22.5 degree pivot, forcing the Knight player to have to choose facings very carefully. You can plan on where you opponent will need to be to get a shot off, and set up your units to get flanking shots when the Knight moves in place. That's an easier strategy than playing chess.

SJ

It's not balanced at all. You THINK that that particular set up balances the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 killerpenguin wrote:
I still think they're impossible to deal with. We're talking about 3 knights with 3++. In a 2000 pts game.

Well, you're demonstrably wrong. 3 knights are manageable at 2K. Knights are not good. They are average units.

Sending more than one unit against them is how you kill them. The shield only protects one side. And busting AV 12 is REALLY easy. A frickin leak grenade can strip a hill point. Melta can and will bring one down fairly easily. Two Squads of Nurgle Bikers should have no problem taking one down. And then they go on to another one. And if you are sending two Squads, no shield against one of them.

Martel732 wrote:


"Autocannons won't get you anywhere. You need Lascannons"

Statistically identical vs AV 12.

No, 1/18 chance for explodes puts lascannons slightly ahead (not considering points costs or value against other targets ofc). LC is superior against front armor too.

Putting troops in rhinos seems advisable, either you get good mobility for scoring or he puts his 400 pt shooting into 40 pt transports. I'd call that win/win. Obviously i'm more in the outscore camp than the killemall camp

 Jancoran wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:
Hi guys!
My friend has 3 imperial knights, i play Death guard and i have no idea how to deal with them. Its 7 av13 hullpoints right? With a 3 up cover save? We played 2000 points yesterday, he had a baronial court and some imperial guard psycher that made one of the psychers mastery level 5? So if the knights wasn't enough, he summoned a ton daemons as well.

Cheesy

So how do you guys deal with knights? Do you think it'll be easier with the new edition?

well... I am not playing Death Guard. i will however point this out: Objective Secured is the answer to a lot of questions regarding lists like this. It is okay to be able to kill stuff and all but in the end... it's where on the board you can get and when that can be made to matter if your list is built to that mantra.

So my sugestion in the vaguest of senses is to repel the comments people make about Objective Secured not being a "big deal" and actually treat it like a big deal. Because against that kind of foe specifically, no friend was ever truer to you than good old Obsec.

Going back to this. DG vectorium is pretty resilient with FNP re-rolls and stealth at +18". It offers some decent choices, but most of all, gives objective secured. I've used it against gladius and done well simply because of the overwhelming durability. T6 spawn with +5Fnp re-rolling 1s is nice. Start playing Maelstorm, eternal war is just kill points until the last turn. MSU DG vectorium is pretty awesome, and should easily be able to outscore 3 knights and a little daemon farm (who I doubt is rolling come the apoc or misshap rolls properly for their initial deep strike once summoned)

It's impossible to win against that list with DG. Spawn doesn't get fnp btw.

It's possible.

Howdy, I play AdMech with a Knight or sometimes even 2 knights. And I can give you some tips on how to deal with them. More specficially on what gives me pause when I'm using knights.

Despite the Super Heavy Status, Knights are not particulary more resilant than a Leman Russ. Think of them this way. How would you handle a 12 moving Leman Russ. The answer is always Melta. Lazcannons are great too and they wond most of the time and can cause extra damage.

I always pause when when I see powerfists (or equicalent) or even a sargent with a meltabomb. Looking at your lists, I reommend taking a lazcannon or two in each or your havocs, putting powerfists on all your bike sargents and keep the meltagun. You may even be better off getting Chosen with meltaguns/combimeltas as a single volley of 4-5 meltaguns has a good chance of outright killing a knight.

Always remember to flank! Take away their ionsheild by firing your Lazcannons at his strongest facing to force him to put his sheilds in that direction, leaving your melta, autocannons and missle free to shoot at bare AV12 with no saves.

Take advantage of your Deathguard. The fact they can mosey into cover and get 2+ cover saves with their shourded means you won't give a feth about how much dakka the throws at you.

Cultists with a champion are surprising annoying. Throw your 120 point unit into melee with a knight and watch him send two maybe three turns not shooting and doing meh damage to your throw away troops.

 Tsol wrote:
Howdy, I play AdMech with a Knight or sometimes even 2 knights. And I can give you some tips on how to deal with them. More specficially on what gives me pause when I'm using knights.

Despite the Super Heavy Status, Knights are not particulary more resilant than a Leman Russ. Think of them this way. How would you handle a 12 moving Leman Russ. The answer is always Melta. Lazcannons are great too and they wond most of the time and can cause extra damage.

I always pause when when I see powerfists (or equicalent) or even a sargent with a meltabomb. Looking at your lists, I reommend taking a lazcannon or two in each or your havocs, putting powerfists on all your bike sargents and keep the meltagun. You may even be better off getting Chosen with meltaguns/combimeltas as a single volley of 4-5 meltaguns has a good chance of outright killing a knight.

Always remember to flank! Take away their ionsheild by firing your Lazcannons at his strongest facing to force him to put his sheilds in that direction, leaving your melta, autocannons and missle free to shoot at bare AV12 with no saves.

Take advantage of your Deathguard. The fact they can mosey into cover and get 2+ cover saves with their shourded means you won't give a feth about how much dakka the throws at you.

Cultists with a champion are surprising annoying. Throw your 120 point unit into melee with a knight and watch him send two maybe three turns not shooting and doing meh damage to your throw away troops.

Thanks for the tips. But I'm done with 7th ed. Not gonna play another game of this

My third game since coming back to the hobby after a 3 year break.I played against ynnari with 3 units with 5 D weapon flamers and a wraith knight. All the flamer units were deep striking without scatter. One unit DS and took out my 5 bikers and my sorcerer. That same unit got a soul burst, then took out my other unit of 5 bikers and my lord. Then the wraith knight intakilled my DP. This was round 2... How can you even make a game this unbalanced? You have to completely not give a single . yea and he also had the daemon who had fleshbane and armourbane and could regenerate wounds. He was almost dead when my drake killed a unit beside him and he threw 7 dice and regenerated all his/her wounds.

Gg. see you in 8th Ed.

And you thought iks were bad. If it makes you feel any better, 90% of lists lose to the cheese you just described.

That ynnari list is pretty mich the worst.
Just look for people who want to play a game and not get easy wins off a broken list. I play Eldar, i regularly face people with prejudices (and rightly so) because people crank out that stuff. One does not spam wraithguard in friendly games.

Barrage weapons hit side armor. Also melta bombs and power fists

 Barun Von Krump wrote:
Barrage weapons hit side armor. Also melta bombs and power fists

Melta Bombs and Power Fists hit rear armor ... for now.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Barun Von Krump wrote:
Barrage weapons hit side armor. Also melta bombs and power fists

Melta Bombs and Power Fists hit rear armor ... for now.

SJ

Um... Not for Walkers, they don't.

 killerpenguin wrote:

 Tsol wrote:
Howdy, I play AdMech with a Knight or sometimes even 2 knights. And I can give you some tips on how to deal with them. More specficially on what gives me pause when I'm using knights.

Despite the Super Heavy Status, Knights are not particulary more resilant than a Leman Russ. Think of them this way. How would you handle a 12 moving Leman Russ. The answer is always Melta. Lazcannons are great too and they wond most of the time and can cause extra damage.

I always pause when when I see powerfists (or equicalent) or even a sargent with a meltabomb. Looking at your lists, I reommend taking a lazcannon or two in each or your havocs, putting powerfists on all your bike sargents and keep the meltagun. You may even be better off getting Chosen with meltaguns/combimeltas as a single volley of 4-5 meltaguns has a good chance of outright killing a knight.

Always remember to flank! Take away their ionsheild by firing your Lazcannons at his strongest facing to force him to put his sheilds in that direction, leaving your melta, autocannons and missle free to shoot at bare AV12 with no saves.

Take advantage of your Deathguard. The fact they can mosey into cover and get 2+ cover saves with their shourded means you won't give a feth about how much dakka the throws at you.

Cultists with a champion are surprising annoying. Throw your 120 point unit into melee with a knight and watch him send two maybe three turns not shooting and doing meh damage to your throw away troops.

Thanks for the tips. But I'm done with 7th ed. Not gonna play another game of this

My third game since coming back to the hobby after a 3 year break.I played against ynnari with 3 units with 5 D weapon flamers and a wraith knight. All the flamer units were deep striking without scatter. One unit DS and took out my 5 bikers and my sorcerer. That same unit got a soul burst, then took out my other unit of 5 bikers and my lord. Then the wraith knight intakilled my DP. This was round 2... How can you even make a game this unbalanced? You have to completely not give a single . yea and he also had the daemon who had fleshbane and armourbane and could regenerate wounds. He was almost dead when my drake killed a unit beside him and he threw 7 dice and regenerated all his/her wounds.

Gg. see you in 8th Ed.

Sorry to hear that. I love the concept of 7th, but the extreme powercreep and detachment bonuses make the game unplayable unless you are playing one of the uplifted detachments or cheese builds. And yes, I have a friend who plays Eldar D spam. He take two Wraithknights with the 2 D cannons and then takes 3 D cannon artillary and then takes 1-2 wraithgurad all with D flamers. I am the only one who will play his list because I've been playing since 2ed, and I know how to avoid/counter such cheese.

I recommend you try what my gaming group does, CADs only. No formations, no detachments. It makes the game much closer to a better polished 5th, though still favoring MC.

No formations just means eldar win.

I just hope the new edition will be balanced

IKs ARE balanced as 7th ed goes. They are EXPENSIVE.

 killerpenguin wrote:
I just hope the new edition will be balanced

Imperial Knights are pretty well balanced, I think.

There's a lot that's unbalanced, though.

Martel732 wrote:
IKs ARE balanced as 7th ed goes. They are EXPENSIVE.

Okey. Hear me out.

I've played a handful of games in 7th ed. I play a death guard warband with a combination of DP, psychers, drakes and/or spawn. 2k or 1850 pts.a mediocre list.

Imo, all the games have been unbalances.

1. Lions blade grav spam + a knight or two? Can't remember.

2. Lions blade plasma cannon spam + a knight or two? Can't remember.

3. Baronial court with summoning IG.

4. D flamer eldar and wraith knight spam.

At least I did t feel like I had a chance of winning in any of the games. It should be mentioned that I won a couple games agains KDK. They were pretty balanced.

My point is. A knight in itself might not be OP, but if you bring three you'll overwhelm pretty much every mediocre army? Am I right?

Not really. You just need a decent amount of anti-tank. Any decent TAC list can handle 3 Knights. They won't win every time, but assuming equal skill, it should easily be at least a 40% win rate.

Lions blade is phenomenal, as is summoning. Eldar, we don't need to speak of. Of everything you listed in those lists, the IKs are the weakest parts of the lists.

I have BA lists where I bolt on an IK. They are about the same quality as the BA in general, because it doesn't change my win rate or even how the lists play that much.

 killerpenguin wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IKs ARE balanced as 7th ed goes. They are EXPENSIVE.

Okey. Hear me out.

I've played a handful of games in 7th ed. I play a death guard warband with a combination of DP, psychers, drakes and/or spawn. 2k or 1850 pts.a mediocre list.

Imo, all the games have been unbalances.

1. Lions blade grav spam + a knight or two? Can't remember.

2. Lions blade plasma cannon spam + a knight or two? Can't remember.

3. Baronial court with summoning IG.

4. D flamer eldar and wraith knight spam.

At least I did t feel like I had a chance of winning in any of the games. It should be mentioned that I won a couple games agains KDK. They were pretty balanced.

My point is. A knight in itself might not be OP, but if you bring three you'll overwhelm pretty much every mediocre army? Am I right?

If you bring a lot of them, a mediocre army will need list tailoring to overcome them.

My Sisters of Battle all-comes list handles them pretty well, and my Imperial Guard tailored list basically rips them to shreds, but the IG all-comers struggles a bit.

The problem with knights is, that if your army is entirely knights and you're playing all-comers, it basically is a 1850 point versus 750 point game. An opposing all-comers list has more than half of its army dedicated to killing infantry and light vehicles, and the knights are entirely heavy vehicles and only really harmed by a couple of things he brought. But, because of this, a tailored list absolutely rips them to shreds, because the weapons that kill heavy vehicles are more points-efficient than the heavy vehicles themselves.