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Hi guys!
My friend has 3 imperial knights, i play Death guard and i have no idea how to deal with them. Its 7 av13 hullpoints right? With a 3 up cover save? We played 2000 points yesterday, he had a baronial court and some imperial guard psycher that made one of the psychers mastery level 5? So if the knights wasn't enough, he summoned a ton daemons as well.

Cheesy

So how do you guys deal with knights? Do you think it'll be easier with the new edition?

No. It's not.

Imperial knights are Super heavy walkers with 6 HP and 13/12/12 armor. They have a 4++ ion shield the place on ONE facing during YOUR shooting phase.

Due to the FAQ, it's very difficult to get a cover save on an IK.

Due to AV 12 sides, IKs are VERY susceptible to being hull pointed out by middling weapons.

My advice is to ignore the knights at first and kill his units that are summoning. Baronial court do get 3++ ion shields, but still only get one facing and lose objective secured.

With the new CSM books, you should be able to handle this. I'd recommend raptor talon coming in with a ton of melta guys for starters.

Knights will probably get harder to kill in 8th ed, as there will be no "explodes" result to inflict extra damage, and they will have an armor save an far more wounds than 6. As it stands, IKs are actually very fragile for their cost, ESPECIALLY vs shooting coming in from multiple facings. So they are pretty strong vs immobile shooting, so don't do that.

 killerpenguin wrote:
Hi guys!
My friend has 3 imperial knights, i play Death guard and i have no idea how to deal with them. Its 7 av13 hullpoints right? With a 3 up cover save? We played 2000 points yesterday, he had a baronial court and some imperial guard psycher that made one of the psychers mastery level 5? So if the knights wasn't enough, he summoned a ton daemons as well.

Cheesy

So how do you guys deal with knights? Do you think it'll be easier with the new edition?

well... I am not playing Death Guard. i will however point this out: Objective Secured is the answer to a lot of questions regarding lists like this. It is okay to be able to kill stuff and all but in the end... it's where on the board you can get and when that can be made to matter if your list is built to that mantra.

So my sugestion in the vaguest of senses is to repel the comments people make about Objective Secured not being a "big deal" and actually treat it like a big deal. Because against that kind of foe specifically, no friend was ever truer to you than good old Obsec.

He had a 3 up, cover save on the knights with a late melta blasts, and some insane 12 shot gun and they hit me on a 2+. It was just insane and not fun to play at all. And I can't get to the IG psychers because they sit in one corner and summon literally a wall of pink horrors around them, and they turn into blue horrrors and so on..

 killerpenguin wrote:
He had a 3 up, cover save on the knights with a late melta blasts, and some insane 12 shot gun and they hit me on a 2+. It was just insane and not fun to play at all. And I can't get to the IG psychers because they sit in one corner and summon literally a wall of pink horrors around them, and they turn into blue horrrors and so on..

Okay. Stop there for a sec. It sounds like you don't understand the rules for IKs. So that means you need to look at the rules to your opponent's list and stop your opponent at each phase and ask to look at the rules if necessary. Sounds like this guy is cheating. Demon players get frustrated with me, but I don't trust them to run their own lists properly because of all the stupid rules.

Yeah you need to have his book in hand when facing it if you're not totally familiar. Sounds like not in this case.

Also...bring an Optimized Stealth Cadre and watch Knights cry. =)

 Jancoran wrote:
Yeah you need to have his book in hand when facing it if you're not totally familiar. Sounds like not in this case.

Also...bring an Optimized Stealth Cadre and watch Knights cry. =)

Cheese of that level is not even necessary. IKs are basically overcosted super dreadnoughts. The AV 12 sides just kill them. I bring them down with frickin BA.

The only good kind of kill is overkill

if somebody is looking for a game and has 3 knights on the board.. I am looking elsewhere to play. I will echo that I do think your opponent is at the very least bending rules if not outright breaking them.

that said 13/12/12 means anything str 6 plus will possibly do something on side armor. I would also make sure the board is fair with plenty of LOS blocking terrain for your deathguard to hide.

lascannon preds would probably be beneficial to you as well.

Knights can get a 3++ on the front in the Baronial Court formation, so that's definitely legit. All of the other things the knight player is doing also seem to be legit, so I don't think there's any cheating going on. He's playing a cheesy, overpowered army, but he's not cheating.

The key with killing knights is to hit them from two or more sides at once so you can get around the ion shield (the invulnerable save) which can only be in one facing at a time.

With Deathguard I think the best way to do this would be to take a couple of squads of Havocs, which are Relentless for the Death Guard so they can move and shoot. Give them autocannon or lascannon if you prefer. Pair them up with Plague Marine (or whatever you like) squads in Rhinos armed with melta guns, and take some Obliterators and/or Terminators armed with more meltaguns.

Deepstrike the Terminators and Obliterators in near the knights, getting to the rear armor if possible. Send your Rhinos zooming up the field to get withing melta range, while the Havocs hang back and stick to cover, maybe shifting around to seek out the side armor of the knights. Then if you shoot two or three units at a Knight you should be able to kill one a turn.

You might also think about taking a Helldrake. Its bale flamer is just the thing for killing the psykers hiding in the corner, and vector strikes can do a little damage to the knights along the way.

 killerpenguin wrote:
He had a 3 up, cover save on the knights with a late melta blasts, and some insane 12 shot gun and they hit me on a 2+. It was just insane and not fun to play at all. And I can't get to the IG psychers because they sit in one corner and summon literally a wall of pink horrors around them, and they turn into blue horrrors and so on..

I want to know your list mate, with MoN your maheens should be T5.

I will make this quick as I am at work.

1. Psykers will have limited Dice pool of warp charges, if your opponent is using the Guard Psyker Formation he can only summon 1-3 Squads of Daemons a turn. That formation will also kill it's self very quickly.
2. If you're running Death Guard, you should be T5 on most Maheen units. Stick some Melta in those squads and walk menacingly at 3 walkers. Also Metal Boxes are your friend if you're using infantry.
3. As stated by everyone here it seems your opponent is being flexible with his rules. His Knights shouldn't be getting a 3+ Cover Save.

They had the 3++ on one side and got some cover save from the other knights.



I was expecting him to bring knights so I actually tried to counter it. I managed to kill one of the knights. And that was mainly because my psycher corrupted one of the knights and made him shoot the side of the other knight. The lord, one of the psychers and the bikers got stuck in daemons trying to get to the IG psychers tucked in the corner. The termies got one wound of one of them, the DP tried to go for the wounded Knight, but all he could do was one smash attack each turn that did nothing. The havocs didn't really do anything either.

I just hope the balance things out it 8th Ed.



Here is the list I used.

Lord - bike, PF, lc, soc

Sorcerer - bike, force axe, ML3, familiar

Sorcerer - bike, force axe, ML3, familiar

DP - black mace, wings, armour, ML1

5x CSM - rhino, plasma

5x CSM - rhino, plasma

3x Terminator - 2x PA, CF, 3x Combi Melta

8x bikers - 2 melta, PF

5x havocs - 4 AC

5x havocs - 4 AC


5x havocs - 4 ML


3 solo spawn

Way too many havocs. You want mobile firepower that can hit from different angles.

Agreed, mobility allows you to hit from two sides.

Mobility is just good in general.

Moar bikes with melta. T6 bikes are crazy good.

Drop the Termies. They're not worth it till 8th, they haven't been viable since 4th anyway... Havocs are meh, I would drop all 3 for Forge/Maulerfiend and a Hell turkey. Personally I wouldn't even bother with CSM troops. Take Cultists and stick them in reserve for back field Objective, if you're not comfortable deploying them.

Remember that you have access to the Here-tech powers. so abuse the fact you can dominate a Knight. Also Invisibility is a great power keep it up on your bikes whenever you can. Force Staves are also good versus vehicles, slap on some Iron Arm and Bash them to death.

The problem wasnt that the havocs weren't able to hit the sides. i placed them on both sides of the long table edge and in the middle, all the havocs shot the knights, usually two of the units were able to hit from the sides, the problem was that the knights are broken, too overpowered and just not fun to play against. I sent my entire army against them except the spawn that held objectives and the bikers and one sorcerer tried to go for the IG, but they did nothing all game.

 killerpenguin wrote:
The problem wasnt that the havocs weren't able to hit the sides. i placed them on both sides of the long table edge and in the middle, all the havocs shot the knights, usually two of the units were able to hit from the sides, the problem was that the knights are broken, too overpowered and just not fun to play against. I sent my entire army against them except the spawn that held objectives and the bikers and one sorcerer tried to go for the IG, but they did nothing all game.

Knights are not broken or overpowered in any way. In fact, they are a bit overcosted in practice. They take a fraction of the abuse of a Wraithknight or Riptide before they fall apart. Remember that they have NO armor saves at all. It's not even clear to me that they are as durable as two Leman Russ tanks. But they are faster and can fight in melee. You think the 12 shot gatling cannon is bad? I play against Eldar lists with 72 shots at S6!

Martel732 wrote:

Knights are not broken or overpowered in any way. In fact, they are a bit overcosted in practice. They take a fraction of the abuse of a Wraithknight or Riptide before they fall apart. Remember that they have NO armor saves at all. It's not even clear to me that they are as durable as two Leman Russ tanks. But they are faster and can fight in melee. You think the 12 shot gatling cannon is bad? I play against Eldar lists with 72 shots at S6!

They seem OP to me, but what do I know, I'm just a CSM player.

He brought 3 of those fethers though.

That means he is going all in on relatively fragile models. The AV 12 sides are particularly weak for such an expensive model.

I don't know what disciplines you psykers are using, but two ML 3 psykers with evil technomancy will also hurt them badly.

Martel732 wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:
The problem wasnt that the havocs weren't able to hit the sides. i placed them on both sides of the long table edge and in the middle, all the havocs shot the knights, usually two of the units were able to hit from the sides, the problem was that the knights are broken, too overpowered and just not fun to play against. I sent my entire army against them except the spawn that held objectives and the bikers and one sorcerer tried to go for the IG, but they did nothing all game.

Knights are not broken or overpowered in any way. In fact, they are a bit overcosted in practice. They take a fraction of the abuse of a Wraithknight or Riptide before they fall apart. Remember that they have NO armor saves at all. It's not even clear to me that they are as durable as two Leman Russ tanks. But they are faster and can fight in melee. You think the 12 shot gatling cannon is bad? I play against Eldar lists with 72 shots at S6!

Comparison isnt truly an argument per se... but I dont think the KNights are over costed. I just think the Wraithknight is too cheap. Imperial KNights are fine. It should definitely be a chucnk of change to be that tough. ceeeeertan things are hard counters to them but thats true of basic infantry so I mean... At some point you gotta pay SOMETHING. Just saying. If two battletanks costs 400 points, the Knight is worth it.

Martel732 wrote:
That means he is going all in on relatively fragile models. The AV 12 sides are particularly weak for such an expensive model.

I don't know what disciplines you psykers are using, but two ML 3 psykers with evil technomancy will also hurt them badly.

I rolled on heretech with both my psychers.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:
The problem wasnt that the havocs weren't able to hit the sides. i placed them on both sides of the long table edge and in the middle, all the havocs shot the knights, usually two of the units were able to hit from the sides, the problem was that the knights are broken, too overpowered and just not fun to play against. I sent my entire army against them except the spawn that held objectives and the bikers and one sorcerer tried to go for the IG, but they did nothing all game.

Knights are not broken or overpowered in any way. In fact, they are a bit overcosted in practice. They take a fraction of the abuse of a Wraithknight or Riptide before they fall apart. Remember that they have NO armor saves at all. It's not even clear to me that they are as durable as two Leman Russ tanks. But they are faster and can fight in melee. You think the 12 shot gatling cannon is bad? I play against Eldar lists with 72 shots at S6!

Comparison isnt truly an argument. I dont think the KNights are over costed. I just think the Wraithknight is too cheap. Imperial KNights are fine. It should definitely be a chucnk of change to be that tough. ceeeeertan things are hard counters to them but thats true of basic infantry so I mean... At some point you gotta pay SOMETHING. Just saying. If two battletanks costs 400 points, the Knight is worth it.

Knights aren't that tough. They're fragile. They're bully units. They can't handle truly potent enemy units in 7th ed. I find myself running away with knights as much as pushing up the table. So in the scheme of how 7th ed plays out, I do think they are overcosted just a bit, because too many mechanics ignore their AV, which is already too low to begin with. I don't mind their hard counters as much as S 6/7 soft countering them very easily Way too much S6/7 for these things to be considered a big threat. In the end, they are just another imperial unit that doesn't stack up to Xeno firepower. The problem is that CSM are also using mostly imperial weapons.

You're got 2 mages. Just roll heretech. They don't get invul saves cause it's magic phase and not shooting.

Also, dg havoks are mobile cause they have relentless.

Huh.

I haven't had problems with knights as Imperial Guard. I've faced 5 of them.

My anti-knight tailored list is:
Shadowsword
Leman Russ Vanquisher TC
Leman Russ Vanquisher
Manticore
Vendetta
CCS
Veterans w/ Meltaguns in Chimera
Platoon with lots of lascannons
ADL
Coteaz

The principle is simple: I sit here, and I shoot them with lots of Lascannons and Vanquisher guns. Focus everything on one until it dies, then shift targets.

I'm sure CSM could do it with Obliterators or Havoks.

Autocannons won't get you anywhere. You need Lascannons.

Martel732 wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:
The problem wasnt that the havocs weren't able to hit the sides. i placed them on both sides of the long table edge and in the middle, all the havocs shot the knights, usually two of the units were able to hit from the sides, the problem was that the knights are broken, too overpowered and just not fun to play against. I sent my entire army against them except the spawn that held objectives and the bikers and one sorcerer tried to go for the IG, but they did nothing all game.

Knights are not broken or overpowered in any way. In fact, they are a bit overcosted in practice. They take a fraction of the abuse of a Wraithknight or Riptide before they fall apart. Remember that they have NO armor saves at all. It's not even clear to me that they are as durable as two Leman Russ tanks. But they are faster and can fight in melee. You think the 12 shot gatling cannon is bad? I play against Eldar lists with 72 shots at S6!

disagree on overcosted, I think imperial knights are actually the most fair of any lord of war. if you want overcosted garbage look at the stompa. undercosted or overpowered would be the wraithknight (by about 50 points undercosted but with removal of D we shall see if 8th gets it right)

I think the knight has its place in 7th and does a great job of providing a threat, putting out good firepower, but not being to invulnerable to damage so that they are an auto win/take.

though I do think GW should have limited lists to a single knight but it was their prerogative to push plastic not balance the game, we shall see if the "new GW" does things differently #numarineshavemedoubting

I say a bit overcosted because they are too expensive to have AV 12 sides, imo.

"Autocannons won't get you anywhere. You need Lascannons"

Statistically identical vs AV 12.

Martel732 wrote:
I say a bit overcosted because they are too expensive to have AV 12 sides, imo.

fair point, though the modularity of the shield makes me personally disagree, all academic though hoping they stay balanced in 8th. it is a model I have yet to pick up but if they stay about wher they are now I will likely get one shortly after 8th release, I have anew airbrush to break in

on the add yea, those autocannons bring down knights with weight of fire on side armor.

I know I must be doubding like broken at this point, but the problem was the game mentioned above is the never mentioned, never thought about lack of sufficient tall line of sight blocking terrain. Just from the OP's statements alone it is glaringly obvious the game was played without the terrain 7e is balanced around. With the correct terrain. Knights would be forced to chose exposing a flank to get a shot, while footsloggers would have cover to move into place. That's what 7e is balanced around.

SJ

Allegedly. That gives GW far too much credit.

Your magical terrain that no one ever seems to have on hand also makes it very difficult to put the knights in a crossfire until they are right on top of you. Said terrain just creates new problems in a game like 40K.