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 Trickstick wrote:
It's the deep strike within rapid fire plasma range, with orders as well. Expensive I guess but worth it if it works. Also, no scatter or reserve rolls make planning so much easier.

Truth.
5 of these guys in dropping with 2 PGs is pretty intense.

Honestly, I'm seeing armies where These are the troops choices and then taking gun tanks for the rest of the army.

One question is : How good are transports if you are deep striking in Scions?
Take a chimera. With dual HB the tank comes in at ~90 points. While the platform is durable, how good is that? At this point I'm just not seeing it as 'awesome'. The dual HF version is 110 points.
A Taurox prime is also fairly expensive once you add on a battle cannon and 2 autocannons. It clocks in at 120 with a storm bolter.


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 Trickstick wrote:
I was thinking 10s with 4x plasma and a pistol. Makes the orders affect more bodies. I guess the problem is dealing with 9" exclusion zones. Is the meta going to allow for good drop locations?

Can you deep strike in a character to give orders? Adding in vox casters and getting within 18" gets tricky.
Honestly the scions will just be wiped the following turn. T3 with a 4+ save is not that tough. I would rather drop 2 squads instead of 1.

One thing to consider -- Look at the way scoring objectives now works.
"A player controls an objective marker if they have more models within 3" of the center of it than their opponent does"

This means a single tank sitting on an objective can easily be overridden by infantry.
I've not seen any advantage to using 'troops' over unlocking extra CPs.
This gives strong arguments to fielding 10 man squads with just lasguns to sit on objectives. 40 points is dirt cheap. Throw them onto objectives like candy.
If you play lots of ITC games, which is something to consider. Bodies on objectives are really important.

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 Trickstick wrote:
Hmm, flame sentinels though... Vehicles can overwatch now right?

That's what I've seen

ADLs
Check out the quad-gun. Heavy 8. Add 1 to hits for weapons that can fly. -1 for other targets. Sticking a squad of vets behind there, or a lord commissar is pretty tight.

 ross-128 wrote:
I actually think Valkyries might be the best transport in the game now, if a bit pricey.

Every other transport has to disembark its passengers before it moves. The Valkyrie can disembark them after moving (technically "while" moving, but you know, plastic models), and it can drop them off at any point on the board that it covered during that movement. And, if I've read correctly, those models can still move and shoot normally after using a grav-chute.

Which means dropping two flamethrower SWTs (12 seats, and units can share transports now) with six flamethrowers total, walking them toward the enemy, and having a barbecue is totally legit. All while the Valkyrie is doing a drive-by.

Or dropping a bunch of ogryns to 'get close and personal'

 Mr.Moe wrote:
How do you feel about adding Heavy Weapons to Vet Squads. I can see using 10 Vets with Vox+ 3x Plasma +Autocannon for 101 pts even though not a troop choice. I can't really make my mind up on how to field regular infantry squads though....

Point for point, vets are pretty decent on the amount of damage they can deal out. You need to give them a chimera to ride in though.

LRBT Spam
This group of 5 LRBTs costs 1000 points on the nose.
Pask w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB
Tank Commander w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB
LR Demolisher w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB
LR Demolisher w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB
LR Demolisher w/ Executioner PC, 2 PC, HB, SB

Pask gives "Gunners Kill on Sight!" to 2 LRBT every turn. The other commander gives the order to the final LRBT.
Every round they, on average HIT with this..
19.375 PC shots : STR 7, -3 AP 1 Damage. 13.125 of those can be safely overcharged to target vehicles or other large creatures
7.75 HB hits : STR 5, -1 AP 1 damage
5.166 SB hits : STR 4, AP -, 1 damage. Double if targets are within 12".

That's an insane amount of damage. It's picking up entire enemy units each turn.

 Trickstick wrote:
Ogryns take up 3 slots each, so not great. However, shotgun vets are perfect! Shotguns with str4 within 6", 3 flamers and a heavy flamer. That leaves a spot in the transport for a priest (+1 attack aura) and a Commissar. Nasty little surprise really.

4 Bullgryns might not be a 'death star', but they are pretty darn good.

Have you taken a close look at the Bullgryn Maul? It's +2 STR, -1 AP, 2 damage.
The unit, on the turn it charges, basically has 17 autocannon attacks that hit on a 3+.
The unit has T5, 3 wounds and a 2+ save.

That would kill ~3.7 terminators or ~5 Primus marines.
It would do ~7.5 wounds to a T7 vehicle.

Those 4 models clock in at 168 points.

Edit :
10 vets with 3 PGs and 1 HF would be killing 3.5 MEQ, 1.2 TEQ, or 1.76 primus marines.
Frankie and Reece said Bullgryns are the bomb. The math is checking out. 4 Bullgryns in a valk can be a very nasty shock for an opponent.

This is my first stab at a 2k list. It uses a supreme command and vanguard detachment.

The amount of firepower it has is pretty darn good. The big weakness is that it's lacking in bodies.
I might turn the 4 scions command squads into just scions and drop a prime. Right now it's set to drop 1 prime next to each other squad to give orders. This lets them maximize their PGs with very little risk to themselves.



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gungo wrote:
I'm just confused why the demolisher base cost more than the Leman russ base when its the EXACT SAME. The increased cost is already baked into the turret weapon.

Oh my screen both are showing as 132 base.

This is another list I threw together at 1850. It has 164 models total. Including the base 3 CP every army starts with, it has 14 CP to use during the game (!!)
The idea with this list is to maximize the number of 4 point models and just spam the board with tons of them.
The army can throw out 7 orders a turn. Each troop has a vox caster, so the order range is pretty decent.
There are 27 PGs, 12 HBs, and 18 LCs and 7 plasma pistols.

HQ
Creed
Company Commander w/Plasma Pistol
Company Commander w/Plasma Pistol
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol

Troops
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter team, Vox Caster

Elites
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Special Weapon Squad w/3 PGs
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol
Commissar w/Plasma Pistol

Heavy Support
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons
Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 LasCannons

Fast Attack
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon
Scout Sentential w/LasCannon

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Don't think this has been mentioned yet, but command squads and special weapons squads have the same points cost and both take up an elites slot, but you get BS 4 and an extra special weapon in the command squad (at the expense of two guys with lasguns). Doesn't this mean that command squads are strictly better than special weapons squads as suicide units (which was there primary purpose anyways)?

BONUS: You can fit 3 command squads in a Valkyrie.

That's not a bad idea. Good for suicide squads. 4 meltas dropping in with a vox caster next to a land raider is pretty sweet.

Edit :
I've been looking and I don't see anything that says you are not locked in combat with a vehicle. It appears that you can throw your chimera at an incoming squad to keep it tied up in combat until they either fall back or destroy it.
That's a nice looking tactical squad there. It would be a shame if something were to RAM it...

 Mr.Moe wrote:
Also the Valk can only hit on 5+ when moving? Or did I miss a special rule? I can't see my Valk ever using Lascannons if that's the case. I'll probably go for max shots with 2x heavy bolter; 2x multi rockets + multi laser.

The multi-laser is pretty crappy as a weapon now. It's 10 more points to upgrade to the LC, which actually has some bite when it hits.
You are correct, the valk hits on a 5+ unless it enters hover mode and stands still.

 Paintalist wrote:
I have to build 6 heavy weapon teams. I am glad that I waited until the rules were leaked. What do you suggest? 3 Autocannons and 3 Lascannons?

Why not both? Seriously, mix and match them. I would start with 2 LC and 1 AC. I expect as the edition starts, lots of people will take vehicles because having a model with 10-24 wounds just sounds sexy.
Last night I was looking at a daemon army for this Friday and the first thing I grabbed were 3 soul grinders, because who does not love a 14 wound model with a 3+ save and 5++ and FNP. At the start I expect there to be lots of that thinking.


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 Therion wrote:
A list along those lines will be very strong, no matter the faction. A lot of armies will stock up on multiwound guns and won't have even nearly enough anti-infantry weaponry to take out that many guys. Everyone who can do hordes to support points efficient shooting will be doing well, I'm guessing. If you don't have even one model with more than one wound, you're nerfing your opponents weaponry before the game even begins. All the excess damage will be lost automatically.

You can throw a Culexus Assassin or two in there if psykers become a thing in the meta.

That's good advice on the assassins. It will take some playtesting, and I'll need to make some movement trays.
I worry about horde assault armies. I think that a green tide or 80 slannesh daemonettes would tear right through it.

 ross-128 wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure why they made the heavy flamer 17 points. There's really not enough difference between it and the regular flamer to justify such a huge price difference, there's no reason for infantry squads to ever take the heavy flamer when the regular flamer has similar enough performance and is only 7 points.

Honestly I would have priced the heavy flamer closer to 10 points, considering how it compares to the regular flamer and the heavy bolter.

There are vehicles that you can put the HF on that you cannot put a flamer on -- like a Chimera.

I do agree though. A cost of 12 points for the HF would have been more palatable.

Biophysical wrote:
I'm also looking at the 4-man Command Squads as cheap special weapon carriers. Vets or SWS have more bodies, so they get Melta or Plasma, but you can bring 4 BS3+ Sniper Rifles for 32 points, or 4 Grenade Launchers for 44 points. They'll contribute, but be a lot lower priority than the hotter squads.

The BS3+ is pretty cool.
The lack of bullet catchers hurts.

I want to touch base on just how awesome the 4 point guardsman is...

Chaos cultists have a worse LD, a worse save and cost 5 points.
Acolytes, getting 1 more attack are 8 points each.

Guard also get the ability to form heavy weapons teams.
Guard also get the ability to benefit form commissars to only lose 1 model max from morale.
Guard get the ability to receive orders.

Guardsmen are top contenders for the best-low cost unit in the game. It's arguably the best feature of the new list.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I want to touch base on just how awesome the 4 point guardsman is...

Chaos cultists have a worse LD, a worse save and cost 5 points.
Acolytes, getting 1 more attack are 8 points each.

notice that acolytes have 3 Wounds each.

and i think ork boys are competing for best low-cost model.

Nice. I did not see that they had 3 wounds each. That's pretty tight.

I also agree that ork boys are amazing, especially now with their STR boost.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Hey don't get me wrong, I think the two best armies as of now are Orks and Nids, and I welcome both. But you have to facepalm at the math. Lets say we spam marines, 150 marines is 1950, not bad, but it only puts out 150 shots over 12, then in close range gets 300 plus another 100 in assault... just comparing that to the shear volume of the ork attack.. it's 50 bolter wounds at range, 100 at close vs t4 plus ~45 in assault. Compare that to the orks 100 wounds at only 6" shorter plus 300!!! wounds in assault! Oh and it is 150 pts cheaper

I played horde orks for a while, and I can tell you that's getting them all into the fight takes time.
Orks are going to be awesome. I expect they will be 'fully competitive'. I don't however, expect them to auto-win every game.

Slaanesh daemonettes will tear orks a new donkey-cave. 3 of them actually. Artfully arranged in a random pattern.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea my fast and lose math is at a very basic scenario because I hate trying to play the hypothetical game. That said, this edition is way easier on the orks then early 5th. Nothing is an auto win against anyone worth playing, that said if your assume equal skill on both sides (which I always do for these hypotheticals) orks are much more forgiving, thus easier to play. In regard to demonettes, they are a great counter, but I am not sold on their durability yet since they dont have a solid answer to battleshock like the orks and are much more fragile.

Greater daemons and icons seem to be the keys to mitigate battleshock. The greater daemon gives the unit a LD of 10. A herald gives them STR 4. A DP lets them reroll 1's to hit, which works well with rending. Banners mean that 1/6 of the time they get bigger when suffering battleshock tests.
I'm noticing a theme with this edition where support units are really critical.

 Therion wrote:
I guess the rapid firing Plasma Scions will beat it, and if that's the case, there's no need to have lascannons anywhere. You'll just take anti-horde weapons, like the Taurox Prime (which actually does very well against tanks like we just demonstrated), or just men with lasguns if that mathhammers better, and plasmaguns.

My mathhammer has been showing the same. Taurox primes are the way to go. Point for point they dish out so much more damage than Chimera's it's not even funny. Scions are also insanely good. The ability to deploy from grav-chute really helps them.


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 Coyote81 wrote:

-Battlefield mobility, bringing 8 Taurox Primes and actually being able to bring all that firepower to bear on the targets that need it is a questionable venture more often then not. I can tell you for sure, the stormraven will put it's shots where you want it, 3x razorbacks not so much.

-Detachment slots. You can only bring a taurox for each other slot, so this will slowly hamper your list building.

-Tempestus in reserves is also limited to half you units..

How many primes you bring depends on your points.
I, personally, would not load up on tons of them. I plan on fielding 4-6 of them.

 Therion wrote:
It's funny how I/we stumbled on this Taurox Prime by simply doing the math and testing. The way they changed the to-wound table affects so many things. T6 is the same as T8 against S9. S4 is the same as S6 against T7. Everything plays into the Taurox's advantage.

It's the 3+ shooting that really helps. Don't forget that SB upgrade is only 2 points, and is a must-have.
Sadly my Chimera's are going to have to go the way of the non-playable shelf. A dual HF chimera runs over 100 points and only delivers 7 hits at an 8" range. It's only advantage over the Taurox is +1 toughness and the ability to transport 2 more models.
In comparison, the Taurox Prime is faster, is cheaper, and has more firepower.

Edit :
On the subject of Hot-shot volley guns. They actually do more damage against Rhinos than a PG on standard charge. When out of rapid fire range, they do dramatically more damage.
The same applies to MEQ targets. The hot shot volley guns do more damage due to the number of shots.
It's food for thought. Some hot-shot volley guns in your Scion squads might be a good addition to just a horde of PGs. They also have a 24" range as well.

Edit 2 :
A funny thought. You can deploy your commisars/company commander in the Taurox Prime and grav-chute your scions. You can then move your Taurox Prime up on turn 1 to be near your squads. On turn 2 deploy out the characters to support your squads. This also puts your primes near your squads in case you need to use them to actually move. The 14" move is really helpful for getting the squads where they need to be.

 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts on running an infantry-only IG army?

- Loads of Infantry with Lascannons, Missiles, Autocannons, Plasma, and maybe Flamers and Meltas.
- Perhaps some HWSs with Lascannons, Missiles or Autocannons.
- SWSs with Meltas or Flamers.
- Company Commanders and Platoon Commanders to hand out orders.
- Yarrick or other Commissars to keep them in line.
- Some Storm Troopers dropping into their backlines with Meltas or Plasma (perhaps accompanied by the Tempestor guy).

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Yes, quite a bit. Here are two different lists that show examples of this.

 Therion wrote:
labmouse42: We're in agreement of all the maximally points efficient stuff, but what do you think about the 'cool' stuff, meaning, Knights and super-heavy tanks, and other tanks? Have you found any of them to be even remotely competitive?

I briefly looked at the Baneblade variants, and the Stormlord seemed decent enough due to the sheer amount of shots, but it pales in comparison to the trucks point by point both in offense and defense.

I've not looked the dakka-per-point of those.
At a 500 point cost, it seems to be very intensive.
I could swap out Pask and the 2 executioners for a LoW in the list below. I don't know if a knight / super heavy tank would be able to throw out the same firepower.

 Therion wrote:
labmouse42: We're in agreement of all the maximally points efficient stuff, but what do you think about the 'cool' stuff, meaning, Knights and super-heavy tanks, and other tanks? Have you found any of them to be even remotely competitive?

I briefly looked at the Baneblade variants, and the Stormlord seemed decent enough due to the sheer amount of shots, but it pales in comparison to the trucks point by point both in offense and defense.

I did some mathahmmering, and you are welcome to check my work.

This is the summary of what I found. I ran a comparison of Wounds of Damage per Point. I ran the numbers vs Rhinos, MEQ and GEQ
The takeaways are the following
* Always take 4 sponsons. You are already paying for the platform, you might as well grab the extra weapons
* These tanks are really good at killing big creatures. They are MUCH less effective against smaller targets.
* As a general all around winner, I would give it to the hellhammer.

 Therion wrote:
10 Scions with 4 hot shot volley guns but otherwise the same setup do 3,018 wounds to T7 3+, being stronger, but since they're slightly more expensive they spend 45,06 points per wound meaning they're weaker but marginally so. However, the supercharge potential is situationally so good that I can't imagine skipping on plasma.

I can think of a lot of times. You won't always be double tapping plasma. There are times you want to reach out and touch someone at 24"
If you are facing an assault army, you don't want to bunch up your units. Having a longer range means you can spread them out a bit more.
I plan on mixing up my PG scions and hot shot volley guns.

Edit :
And thanks again for your math work. I've just ordered 2 more taurox and I plan on getting 2 more today LOL
I was shocked to see just how bad LRBTs are. I'm very sad that I own 3 now...

 Therion wrote:
Do you think the grav chute insertion counts as movement? I'm thinking along the lines of the hot shot volley gun being a heavy weapon, so would the -1 to hit apply when they alpha strike?

It probably does. At worst, thats a -1 to hit for one turn. At best you deploy them ahead of time where you want them to be effective.
The key here is you can take some of both. You are not limited to either-or.

 Therion wrote:
I definately agree the 9" rapid fire range is being generous, but on the other hand, against multiwound targets you'd probably super-charge quite often to get rid of the targets for good, and considering it changes your to wound rolls against T7 from 4+ to 3+, and doubles the damage, it really is a dramatic change in kill potential. They really are incredible when going all super saiyan. Hardest point by point hitters in the game that I've checked at least.

Agreed.
I think an army of nothing by scions and taurox would have some range problems. Having some long range tools is useful. The trick is finding a cost-effective solution for this role.

Good point on the super-charging. Especially as you greatly lower the risk (1/36) by issuing orders to the unit.

 Therion wrote:
I agree there should be something more, but I'm not sure what it could be that wouldn't absolutely suck in comparison. The Taurox' are quite fast though, and the Scions deploy wherever they want, so I'm not that sure they'll struggle with range that much.

I wonder how HWS's stack up here...
They are stupid cheap right now (4 points per squad + weapon cost) but are very fragile.

For heavy weapon teams. They are specialized, but work very well for what they do. In the AM army, they are pretty much the peak of efficiency for the LC, ML, AC, Mortar or HB as your entry cost is 4 points per weapon.
If you needed to add some extra anti-armor into your list, throwing in a squad or two of these is a bonus. Extra Mortar would help to clear out hordes. At 27 points for 3 mortar squads they are dirt cheap too.


Rhino
LC is 24.68
ML is 30.85
AC are 32.57
Mortars : 46.28
HB : 48

MEQ
LC is 69.12
ML is 86.4
AC are 48.85
Mortars : 30.85
HB : 24

GEQ
LC is 57.6
ML is 41.14
AC are 23.45
Mortars : 11.57
HB : 14.4

 Red Corsair wrote:
I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.

As a fair heads up. The way objectives now work is the player with the most models within 3" of the objective controls it. A single can easily lose the objective.

Ivan wrote:
So is anyone else concerned with (or happy for, we being Guard) the HeavyFlamer/HeavyFlamer Chimera? Which is available in virtually unlimited slots for 109 points? 2d6 autohits after moving 12" with range 8"... yeah, S5 is anti-infantry only but skipping the to-hit seems absurdly good.

I'm super new to things (like all of us) so please don't jump me if that's not viable. You can move 12" and go "LOL, heavy flamers don't have to take the -1 to hit penalty", right?

Don't forget to toss a storm bolter on for 2 points to get another 4 shots

You also can overwatch with it. You can also assault weaker infantry units with it and tie them up for a round while they flee combat (or stay locked in while a vehicle they likely cannot hurt). Power fists are a thing now and can be a quick end to that plan, just a fair warning. It does work great on units of snipers.

Last night I ran a friendly game with a friend using the following.He brought the followingIt was an educational game. While it was a 'just for fun beer and popcorn game' there were a few things I picked up.
* Chimeras are not as bad as I thought they would be. The fact that they never degrade shooting is pretty nice. One did 2 wounds to the chaos lord when it tried to charge.
* Chimeras are tougher than Taurox'. That 1 point of toughness does matter when getting shot by autocannons.
* Taurox' prime can mow down cultists like it's nobody's business. With the moral test, my taurox killed 18 in one round.
* Terminators deep striking with combi-meltas is nasty.
* The LRBTs were underwhelming. They killed a few terminators, a few havocs but I did not have an 'OMG' moment with them.
* I deep struck a scion squad and opened up a can of Havocs. After rapid firing I killed them all. On the following turn they were charged by bezerkers and wiped out. The counter charge can really hurt.
* Even with commissar support, the scion squads were completely wiped out when assaulted. Be it by a chaos lord, by bezerker squads or whatever. Out of the 4 squads, I lost 3 to assault.
* The lord commissar used a power sword to kill his Chaos Lord who was down to 1 wound. I used to command point to break sequence and was able to kill him before he could swing.
* I used my chimeras to lock bezerkers in assault.

 Blacksails wrote:
How did you find the Russ durability though? It seems like people are generally saying that arty is for damage, but tanks are for staying power. Did they take a beating, or generally just avoided by your opponent?

They were able to take 4 combi-meltas to the face, then a chainfist terminator hitting the side and it was not wrecked (though it did lose 9 wounds)
The T8 really helped in this case, as it was being wounded on a 4+ vs a 3+. That same firepower was a lot more dangerous to the chimeras/taurox.

 Blacksails wrote:
Did you play with objectives? How was your ability to score?

He did not want to play objectives as it was his first 8th edition game. I think objectives would have been fairly easy to get.

lash92 wrote:
What is your take on the Chimera?

I am searching for a way to use it. Probably with 2 x Heavy Flamer, but which units inside would complement this good?

Don't forget to add a storm bolter. 4 shots for 2 points. It's a great deal.