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 CaptainLoken wrote:
I care deeply about the fluff, and I am disgusted. In fact, I care only for the fluff. GW rules have never been that great, but I have played this game for 26 years...BECAUSE of the fluff.

I have 6,500 points of Ultramarines. I have 3,500 point of Eldar (with the original lead Aspect Warriors). I have 2,000 points of every other army except Genestealer Cults. Yes, even 2,000 point of metal Sisters.

I will be looking to sell my entire collection, BECAUSE of the joke that GW just made of the fluff...all for the almighty dollar/pound...

It's sad. I've read all the books. Played all of the games. I even bought the horrible movie.

Now? I'm done. It's not an "End Times"...it's even worse...it's a "HEY! Here's nothing but an excuse to sell you more of the same stuff, only different! Don't worry, it will all make sense! Check out these new rules! They only miss on a 2! RIGHT?"

Don't lie to yourselves. It's Age of Crapmar for 40K...only they didn't blow up the setting...they just raped it...

well if you're so despirate to be rid of them, can I have your ultramarines?

if you really cared about the fluff you'd wait it out until we had a chance to read the full fluff before making up your mind.

are Primaris Marines an excuse to make money? yes but welcome to busniess, every model in your collection's fluff was written as an excuse to make money, Primaris Marines are no differant, and it remains to be seen how well it'll work. with a half paragraph of text space Marines would sound lame too

BrianDavion wrote:

 CaptainLoken wrote:
I care deeply about the fluff, and I am disgusted. In fact, I care only for the fluff. GW rules have never been that great, but I have played this game for 26 years...BECAUSE of the fluff.

I have 6,500 points of Ultramarines. I have 3,500 point of Eldar (with the original lead Aspect Warriors). I have 2,000 points of every other army except Genestealer Cults. Yes, even 2,000 point of metal Sisters.

I will be looking to sell my entire collection, BECAUSE of the joke that GW just made of the fluff...all for the almighty dollar/pound...

It's sad. I've read all the books. Played all of the games. I even bought the horrible movie.

Now? I'm done. It's not an "End Times"...it's even worse...it's a "HEY! Here's nothing but an excuse to sell you more of the same stuff, only different! Don't worry, it will all make sense! Check out these new rules! They only miss on a 2! RIGHT?"

Don't lie to yourselves. It's Age of Crapmar for 40K...only they didn't blow up the setting...they just raped it...

well if you're so despirate to be rid of them, can I have your ultramarines?

if you really cared about the fluff you'd wait it out until we had a chance to read the full fluff before making up your mind.

are Primaris Marines an excuse to make money? yes but welcome to busniess, every model in your collection's fluff was written as an excuse to make money, Primaris Marines are no differant, and it remains to be seen how well it'll work. with a half paragraph of text space Marines would sound lame too

good point, also you have some space wolves I can snag off ya? hehehe, also thinking about starting an Ork army since they look awesome so I would take any of them you got as well.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I hope not. I fear for the likes of Dante, Ragnar, Cato etc

Why create any regular Astartes, regardless of how good they have proven to be, when you can have super duper one that's even better straight off the production lines. .

From what I've heard, a standard Marine can be upgraded to Primaris. So Dante and Ragnar, could in theory become Primaris themselves.

As long as HH remains popular marines won't be phased out.

I think so. If marines can be upgraded to Primaris marines and old marines die off, then it allows Primaris to replace marines in their entirety at one point. That said, if you play 30K or that FW rebellion thing that I can't remember involving the Red Scorpions and Celestial Lions, the old marines will be around for good.

 Nerak wrote:
As long as HH remains popular marines won't be phased out.

this, GW's not gonna pass on the profit from box sets like, calath, prosperio and future stuff

Well model wise I certainly hope they would. Outside of the Forgeworld models or the occasional GW HQ like the Interrogator Chaplain, Space Marines look like crap compared to the new Primaris Marines which have non-gakky proportions and are actually bigger than guardsmen. Fluffwise considering that any space marine can be upgraded into a Primaris Marine through a procedure that has something like an 80% success rate, I don't have much issue if the range replaces the default marines in both lore and models.

I would have much less of a problem with their replacement, if there was more of a downside. It sort of feels like something for free at the moment, which jars a little with the 'things are really quite bad' feel of the 40k universe.

Couple of ideas that would make me happier about the fluff for Primaris Marines:

1. Their benefits come with downsides. They are physically superior, but the process amplifies existing flaws in geneseed, and they're generally more volatile.
2. The process for creating them is just as laborious and involved as regular Astartes, if not more so. Feels a bit like printing money otherwise.
3. Hints of a possible Men of Iron style rebellion in the future, when the new wave of Primaris recruits realise these squishy humans are just holding them back.
4. Cawl was bluffing about how resistant they are to Chaos (which has already been suggested). Having more and more things be resistant to Chaos is frankly, a little boring. There's no suspense to it. They're just noblebright untouchable heroes which is tedious.
5. They're basically just Thunder Warriors resurrected. Fits the previous fluff better, has more narrative potential, and is jsut plain cool really.

All of these could come into play, as we've only heard the bare minimum of Primaris fluff. I really hope it does as at the moment it's glaringly noblebright which just feels cartoony to me.

No. Just like the Militarum Tempestus did not replace the Guardsmen, neither will the Primaris replace the Marines. They will just remain as a more elite choice for Space Marine players similar to how Guard players can use the Tempestus.
That is my guess anyhow. GW has far too much of its resources invested in the Space Marine line to be able to phase it out.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No. Just like the Militarum Tempestus did not replace the Guardsmen, neither will the Primaris replace the Marines. They will just remain as a more elite choice for Space Marine players similar to how Guard players can use the Tempestus.
That is my guess anyhow. GW has far too much of its resources invested in the Space Marine line to be able to phase it out.

I like the MT to AM comparison

Here's a thought guys. The little bit of fluff that was mentioned said something about how descendants from all of the nine loyal Legions emerged as primaris Marines from the labs under Mars. It also mentioned whole new chapters. The space wolves are one of those original Legions and they have never had a successor chapter before. We may have the possibility of space Wolf successor chapters in primaris Space Marines and that means possible wolf time release with Leman Russ!

 lord marcus wrote:
Here's a thought guys. The little bit of fluff that was mentioned said something about how descendants from all of the nine loyal Legions emerged as primaris Marines from the labs under Mars. It also mentioned whole new chapters. The space wolves are one of those original Legions and they have never had a successor chapter before. We may have the possibility of space Wolf successor chapters in primaris Space Marines and that means possible wolf time release with Leman Russ!

except there was a successor chapter and it went terribly wrong.

 Books wrote:

 lord marcus wrote:
Here's a thought guys. The little bit of fluff that was mentioned said something about how descendants from all of the nine loyal Legions emerged as primaris Marines from the labs under Mars. It also mentioned whole new chapters. The space wolves are one of those original Legions and they have never had a successor chapter before. We may have the possibility of space Wolf successor chapters in primaris Space Marines and that means possible wolf time release with Leman Russ!

except there was a successor chapter and it went terribly wrong.

Wolf brothers. Brotherhood of the bear. Both are SW successor chapters.

regarding Primaris Marines replacing regular Marines, I think the answer is "sortta"

in the setting Primaris Marines may eventually replace regular Marines but that'll be off in the future a bit, so not terriably relevant except if someone wants to play "Warhammer 45k"

for not Primaris Marines are mostly a supplement.

The first batch of Primaris Marines from Mars are created from embryos. Considering that Space Wolves can exclusively recruit from Fenris and no-where else, it's likely these Embryos were cultivated from Fenrisian DNA.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The first batch of Primaris Marines from Mars are created from embryos. Considering that Space Wolves can exclusively recruit from Fenris and no-where else, it's likely these Embryos were cultivated from Fenrisian DNA.

Considering fenrid is destroyed, and Carl is a biologis, maybe he found a way,?

 lord marcus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The first batch of Primaris Marines from Mars are created from embryos. Considering that Space Wolves can exclusively recruit from Fenris and no-where else, it's likely these Embryos were cultivated from Fenrisian DNA.

Considering fenrid is destroyed, and Carl is a biologis, maybe he found a way,?

Fenris isn't destroyed and the population is alive, albeit heavily reduced. And Primaris Marines were made long before the Fenris Warzone events went down..

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I would have much less of a problem with their replacement, if there was more of a downside. It sort of feels like something for free at the moment, which jars a little with the 'things are really quite bad' feel of the 40k universe.

Couple of ideas that would make me happier about the fluff for Primaris Marines:

1. Their benefits come with downsides. They are physically superior, but the process amplifies existing flaws in geneseed, and they're generally more volatile.
2. The process for creating them is just as laborious and involved as regular Astartes, if not more so. Feels a bit like printing money otherwise.
3. Hints of a possible Men of Iron style rebellion in the future, when the new wave of Primaris recruits realise these squishy humans are just holding them back.
4. Cawl was bluffing about how resistant they are to Chaos (which has already been suggested). Having more and more things be resistant to Chaos is frankly, a little boring. There's no suspense to it. They're just noblebright untouchable heroes which is tedious.
5. They're basically just Thunder Warriors resurrected. Fits the previous fluff better, has more narrative potential, and is jsut plain cool really.

All of these could come into play, as we've only heard the bare minimum of Primaris fluff. I really hope it does as at the moment it's glaringly noblebright which just feels cartoony to me.

Option 5 could work, if the sales of these don't set the world on fire and GW needs to dial back the space marine +1 vibe then they could write in that cawl basically ripped off the Emperors thunder warrior research to make them, and that they start to suffer from genetic issues after a 100 years or so. Meaning they may be a bit better than marines, but don't last anywhere near as long. Also play on the fact that they are too distant from humanity and don't care about the people they are meant to be protecting.

Having some go rouge and deciding that they are better than humanity, and should just grow more of themselves as a new race could be kinda cool. Would help put some grim back into the dark.

I don't think GW intends them to. There's not enough of them out there to even get close to replacing all the chapters.

100% yes, I will personally apologise to everyone in this thread if in 3 years time doesn't have the following:
*all GW sells is Primaris
*All fluff characters are Primaris
*All new books in the current setting aren't Primaris.

 Rippy wrote:
100% yes, I will personally apologise to everyone in this thread if in 3 years time doesn't have the following:
*all GW sells is Primaris
*All fluff characters are Primaris
*All new books in the current setting aren't Primaris.

3 years isn't all that long, I suspect we're gonna see GW double dipping considerably. all the fluff will glorify the Primaris Marines, you can BET on that. but at the same time, they'll continue to have the old marines for sale, etc (although fine cast stuff may end up discontinued) no reason not too, and it allows em to put out plastic heresy stuff, thats always been popular.

I am immensely worried that in 5 years GW will go "Okay, all your old models are invalid in matched play. Primaris only".

stratigo wrote:
I am immensely worried that in 5 years GW will go "Okay, all your old models are invalid in matched play. Primaris only".

That would cause uproar

Honestly I think they're just betting on people naturally moving to primaris. Like when you lose something you didn't really use anyway.

They'll probably first become known as Legacy Marines, who will be veterans and expensive (more than they're worth) but they'll be there. No one will use them because they won't do anything prinaris can't.

Then in a few years they'll advance the story and they'll either eradicate them, or reduce them to a singular, expensive specialist squad. One edition later and they'll be talked about the way Thunder Warriors are.

 lord marcus wrote:

stratigo wrote:
I am immensely worried that in 5 years GW will go "Okay, all your old models are invalid in matched play. Primaris only".

That would cause uproar

Know what else caused an uproar? The end times.

Know what else had GW slowly phase out models and rules? The end times.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No. Just like the Militarum Tempestus did not replace the Guardsmen, neither will the Primaris replace the Marines. They will just remain as a more elite choice for Space Marine players similar to how Guard players can use the Tempestus.
That is my guess anyhow. GW has far too much of its resources invested in the Space Marine line to be able to phase it out.

Thematically this is a bit of a flub.

"Oh, the most elite warriors in the imperium are the space marines... well now you get space marine space marines, super duper extra awesome mega elite!" It sort of robs space marines of being space marines.

Also the fluff is bone headed even by 40k standards. Yeah I'm sure this one dude built the entirety of a never before mentioned super soldier on orders never before mentioned, ten THOUSAND years ago. It, uh, would have been way better for this to be something they did, you know, later, instead of "Well, I had this army in the basement the last ten thousand years, but no one said I could us them, so I just let the imperium get fooked a bunch" or worse "ten thousand years to do minor innovation!"

But the main problem is the theme.


As an aside, don't be so certain that editions are gonna be a thing going forward.

Considering Primaris is an upgrade as well as a more stable initiation you're probably right for some chapters.
However.
Their blurb claims that they emphasise both the good and bad of each chapter.
Some chapters really don't need their bad emphasised.

I'm not too upset if regular marines get phased out. I can still use the older marines for historical scenarios like the Badab war or the early Third War for Armageddon. Plus, I don't think Games Workshop will entirely invalidate the old marines. They'll probably just end up like the Empire: Second fiddle, don't get new releases and aren't in the forefront. But really, besides updating the biker kit (Which they may do!), what do vanilla marines need? We have all of our bases covered with relatively new and good looking models.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I'm not too upset if regular marines get phased out. I can still use the older marines for historical scenarios like the Badab war or the early Third War for Armageddon. Plus, I don't think Games Workshop will entirely invalidate the old marines. They'll probably just end up like the Empire: Second fiddle, don't get new releases and aren't in the forefront. But really, besides updating the biker kit (Which they may do!), what do vanilla marines need? We have all of our bases covered with relatively new and good looking models.

to be allowed to keep playing the models we have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars without them being invalidated or reduced to uselesness and obsolescence as the years go on?

stratigo wrote:

to be allowed to keep playing the models we have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars without them being invalidated or reduced to uselesness and obsolescence as the years go on?

have a look to Sisters of Battle..

They really haven't gotten anything new in how long?

Yet they are still playable

Don't worry your inferior marines will still be playable for years to come

stratigo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I'm not too upset if regular marines get phased out. I can still use the older marines for historical scenarios like the Badab war or the early Third War for Armageddon. Plus, I don't think Games Workshop will entirely invalidate the old marines. They'll probably just end up like the Empire: Second fiddle, don't get new releases and aren't in the forefront. But really, besides updating the biker kit (Which they may do!), what do vanilla marines need? We have all of our bases covered with relatively new and good looking models.

to be allowed to keep playing the models we have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars without them being invalidated or reduced to uselesness and obsolescence as the years go on?

except they're not obselete, as he noted, space Marines are, mostly complete as an army. any new things inevitably feel tacked on