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 Mr. Burning wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Curiously enough:

Spoiler:

- It seems like Rowboote isn't really a fan of the Primaris Marines - he calls them even "Cawl's blasphemous hordes".

This comes from Lady Atia.

He realises that existing Astartes can't cut it and sees no other option than to pervert his fathers work?

Will Primaris become the new Thunder Warriors? Or be prime targets for chaos? What role does a living weapon serve when its purpose is fulfilled?

Humanity has to continue to evolve. The marines will eventually go the way of the Thunder Warrior, as the Emperor always intended. Perfection cannot be achieved overnight. I keep my profile picture of the Thunder Warrior to remind my 40k fluff side of this important lesson.

 Aetare wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Curiously enough:

Spoiler:

- It seems like Rowboote isn't really a fan of the Primaris Marines - he calls them even "Cawl's blasphemous hordes".

This comes from Lady Atia.

He realises that existing Astartes can't cut it and sees no other option than to pervert his fathers work?

Will Primaris become the new Thunder Warriors? Or be prime targets for chaos? What role does a living weapon serve when its purpose is fulfilled?

Humanity has to continue to evolve. The marines will eventually go the way of the Thunder Warrior, as the Emperor always intended. Perfection cannot be achieved overnight. I keep my profile picture of the Thunder Warrior to remind my 40k fluff side of this important lesson.

Wasn't the Emperor's whole plan to stop human evolution by offing all the psykers?

pm713 wrote:

 Aetare wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Curiously enough:

Spoiler:

- It seems like Rowboote isn't really a fan of the Primaris Marines - he calls them even "Cawl's blasphemous hordes".

This comes from Lady Atia.

He realises that existing Astartes can't cut it and sees no other option than to pervert his fathers work?

Will Primaris become the new Thunder Warriors? Or be prime targets for chaos? What role does a living weapon serve when its purpose is fulfilled?

Humanity has to continue to evolve. The marines will eventually go the way of the Thunder Warrior, as the Emperor always intended. Perfection cannot be achieved overnight. I keep my profile picture of the Thunder Warrior to remind my 40k fluff side of this important lesson.

Wasn't the Emperor's whole plan to stop human evolution by offing all the psykers?

Unless I'm mistaken the Emperor intended to guide mankind through its evolution into a wholly psychic race, rather than quashing Psykers. The emperor stands (sits?) as the living (debatable) embodiment of the warp and all of its psychic might, and eve though it would be poetic to have the big E striving against the very fibre of his being to halt human evolution, I believe in reality that is not the case. The council of Nikeaa (spelling?) more or less served as a placeholder until the opportune moment to usher in the widespread use of psykers once the Emperor had enough safeguards in place against the forces of chaos. That day unfortunately never came.

 Aetare wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Aetare wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Curiously enough:

Spoiler:

- It seems like Rowboote isn't really a fan of the Primaris Marines - he calls them even "Cawl's blasphemous hordes".

This comes from Lady Atia.

He realises that existing Astartes can't cut it and sees no other option than to pervert his fathers work?

Will Primaris become the new Thunder Warriors? Or be prime targets for chaos? What role does a living weapon serve when its purpose is fulfilled?

Humanity has to continue to evolve. The marines will eventually go the way of the Thunder Warrior, as the Emperor always intended. Perfection cannot be achieved overnight. I keep my profile picture of the Thunder Warrior to remind my 40k fluff side of this important lesson.

Wasn't the Emperor's whole plan to stop human evolution by offing all the psykers?

Unless I'm mistaken the Emperor intended to guide mankind through its evolution into a wholly psychic race, rather than quashing Psykers. The emperor stands (sits?) as the living (debatable) embodiment of the warp and all of its psychic might, and eve though it would be poetic to have the big E striving against the very fibre of his being to halt human evolution, I believe in reality that is not the case. The council of Nikeaa (spelling?) more or less served as a placeholder until the opportune moment to usher in the widespread use of psykers once the Emperor had enough safeguards in place against the forces of chaos. That day unfortunately never came.

I thought Master of Manking went into how controlling psykers was a stop gap until they could use the Webway at which point psykers were gone. Which always struck me as incredibly dumb.

I think the Emps always intended to help humanity transcend above the malign effects of Psychic power, but to nonetheless embody and control it for the betterment of the species. In a way, learning from the mistakes of the Eldar and attempting to improve upon their model without resulting in the creation of a fifth god of chaos.

 Aetare wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Curiously enough:

Spoiler:

- It seems like Rowboote isn't really a fan of the Primaris Marines - he calls them even "Cawl's blasphemous hordes".

This comes from Lady Atia.

He realises that existing Astartes can't cut it and sees no other option than to pervert his fathers work?

Will Primaris become the new Thunder Warriors? Or be prime targets for chaos? What role does a living weapon serve when its purpose is fulfilled?

Humanity has to continue to evolve. The marines will eventually go the way of the Thunder Warrior, as the Emperor always intended. Perfection cannot be achieved overnight. I keep my profile picture of the Thunder Warrior to remind my 40k fluff side of this important lesson.

That's sort of not what the core premise of 40k is about (which sadly the fluff writers are moving away from). If you want a story of how humanity emerges victorious against their mortal enemies through using ingenuity and technological brilliance, there's a thousand other IPs telling that story.

For me, the premise of 40k is the opposite. Humanity has no hope of emerging victorious. The brilliance of human ingenuity has been muted by the dogma of faith. Uncountable horrors from the depths of the galaxy assail mankind from all corners. Yet, despite this, humanity endures. Not through the crutch of technology, but through sheer, unadulterated grit.

Technology will not save us. Humanity stands alone vs the worst the universe can throw at them, and we still endure. Because of that 40k is awesome...

...unless they decide this nicely nuanced setting needs some deus ex machina technological saviour to come bail us out, which is as lame as it sounds.

Of course, that's just like, my opinion man

 Mr. Burning wrote:
The Divine Emperor, so beloved, so flawed, so wrong.

His Astartes, The Angels of Death, set to reclaim the galaxy for humanity. Wrought from The Emperors own design and machinations. Turned.

They failed.

Now. We are told that a returned son is creating warriors, superior, to the Astartes.

Superior to the Emperors own vision.

A failed vision.

A flawed vision.

The Emperor failed.

How are we to trust that Gulliman will succeed where the greatest being ever to have lived made such mistakes as to see the galaxy burn.

Trust not in these 'supermen'.

Best reply in this thread, exalted. You're quickly turning to be one of my favourite posters on this forum Mr. Burning.

Gotta agree with Ynneadwraiths above post for all the reasons mentioned. It's what makes 40k unique. I also want to add that alot of people miss the big picture. Much of what the Emperor does stems from what he saw and lived through. Humanity has tried to use technology and ingenuity. It failed. Humanity has tried to weaponise its psychic potential. It failed. Humanity has tried to harness the warp. It failed.
The Emperor decided machine shall never hold sway over man, nor shall reliance on other dimensions nor the word of a psyker nor Alien. Humanity shall stand on it's own two feet, free from the influence of the gods of other realms, free from the dictatorship of technology and free from alien influence on the human mind. This failed too.
Now all that is left is the most basic human need. One that preceeds all other. The human will to survive. The human will to live. For 40.000 years that has held humanities foes at bay through innumerable crises. The Emperor is the embodiment of that will.

The Primaris is the newest weapon for humanitis continued survival, but just like every weapon that came before them (primarchs included) they are bound for ruin. I believe it will come in the form of a rebellion.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Aetare wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Curiously enough:

Spoiler:

- It seems like Rowboote isn't really a fan of the Primaris Marines - he calls them even "Cawl's blasphemous hordes".

This comes from Lady Atia.

He realises that existing Astartes can't cut it and sees no other option than to pervert his fathers work?

Will Primaris become the new Thunder Warriors? Or be prime targets for chaos? What role does a living weapon serve when its purpose is fulfilled?

Humanity has to continue to evolve. The marines will eventually go the way of the Thunder Warrior, as the Emperor always intended. Perfection cannot be achieved overnight. I keep my profile picture of the Thunder Warrior to remind my 40k fluff side of this important lesson.

That's sort of not what the core premise of 40k is about (which sadly the fluff writers are moving away from). If you want a story of how humanity emerges victorious against their mortal enemies through using ingenuity and technological brilliance, there's a thousand other IPs telling that story.

For me, the premise of 40k is the opposite. Humanity has no hope of emerging victorious. The brilliance of human ingenuity has been muted by the dogma of faith. Uncountable horrors from the depths of the galaxy assail mankind from all corners. Yet, despite this, humanity endures. Not through the crutch of technology, but through sheer, unadulterated grit.

Technology will not save us. Humanity stands alone vs the worst the universe can throw at them, and we still endure. Because of that 40k is awesome...

...unless they decide this nicely nuanced setting needs some deus ex machina technological saviour to come bail us out, which is as lame as it sounds.

Of course, that's just like, my opinion man

I agree with your take on things at the time of 40k; I'm more speaking to what was intended by the emperor and will never come to pass, hence the grimdarkness that we are faced with.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah I think that's a really nice foil to the jarring noblebright of the Primaris Marines. Make it like the Men of Iron thing. Big E was dead certain to make his Marines from humans, so they knew what it was like to be human. Primaris Marines have no concept of what it was like to be human. No connection to the people they're fighting and dying for, other than what they're told/indoctrinated to believe.

Based on that, and the precedents in the 40k universe for trying to use technology to better your situation (Men of Iron, 21st Founding), it should be inevitable that the Primaris Marines are going to rebel.

Whether they will or not I don't know. They definitely should though. It's definitely feeling a bit too noblebright at the moment.

That may have been the Emperor's intent, but by the 41st Millennium that's out the door. You can see it in the dismissive or indifferent attitude toward normal Humans. Even to the point where baseline Humans are called "mortals" by Space Marines, who are not technically immortal and are just jacked-up Humans themselves.

A lot of that comes from the mindwipe that recruits get so that the Chapters get a "blank slate" to work from, a long period of time holding themselves apart from the Imperium at large, and from Girlyman's reforms breaking apart the Legions (who routinely fought alongside baseline Humans in the Imperial Army).


The Primaris Marines are an opportunity to have Marines who have a connection to the Imperium, the people it defends, and act as a badly needed symbol of hope in the current timeframe. The Imperium needs fewer Space Sharks, Flesh Tearers, and Marines Malevolent, and more Salamanders, Lamenters, and Space Wolves when it comes to attitude. And we don't need a "Horus Heresy 2.0" in the setting. Things are crap enough in the galaxy, as is.


Grimdark is fine. That's part of 40k's flavor. But there comes a point where "GRIMDARK" becomes "GRIMDERP". You need a certain amount of "NOBLEBRIGHT" to offer a counter-balance to keep things in check.

 Nerak wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
The Divine Emperor, so beloved, so flawed, so wrong.

His Astartes, The Angels of Death, set to reclaim the galaxy for humanity. Wrought from The Emperors own design and machinations. Turned.

They failed.

Now. We are told that a returned son is creating warriors, superior, to the Astartes.

Superior to the Emperors own vision.

A failed vision.

A flawed vision.

The Emperor failed.

How are we to trust that Gulliman will succeed where the greatest being ever to have lived made such mistakes as to see the galaxy burn.

Trust not in these 'supermen'.

Best reply in this thread, exalted. You're quickly turning to be one of my favourite posters on this forum Mr. Burning.

Gotta agree with Ynneadwraiths above post for all the reasons mentioned. It's what makes 40k unique. I also want to add that alot of people miss the big picture. Much of what the Emperor does stems from what he saw and lived through. Humanity has tried to use technology and ingenuity. It failed. Humanity has tried to weaponise its psychic potential. It failed. Humanity has tried to harness the warp. It failed.
The Emperor decided machine shall never hold sway over man, nor shall reliance on other dimensions nor the word of a psyker nor Alien. Humanity shall stand on it's own two feet, free from the influence of the gods of other realms, free from the dictatorship of technology and free from alien influence on the human mind. This failed too.
Now all that is left is the most basic human need. One that preceeds all other. The human will to survive. The human will to live. For 40.000 years that has held humanities foes at bay through innumerable crises. The Emperor is the embodiment of that will.

The Primaris is the newest weapon for humanitis continued survival, but just like every weapon that came before them (primarchs included) they are bound for ruin. I believe it will come in the form of a rebellion.

Hear hear.

The Necrontyr sought victory through technology. Look what happened to them.

The Eldar achieved victory through technology. Look what happened to them.

Humanity has twice before sought victory through technology. Look how that turned out. Men of Iron and Horus Heresy (Big E tried to use his sorcerous technological creations to conquer the universe).

I sincerely hope the Primaris Marines head in the same direction. Every fluff precedent suggests they should.

Ademdum: perhaps the Chaos Gods just really don't like technological advancement. Perhaps they're Amstrad shareholders.

Incidently, I just snagged Dark Imperium, and the novel apparently takes place 112 years after the events of GS3. time jump confirmed

 Aetare wrote:


I agree with your take on things at the time of 40k; I'm more speaking to what was intended by the emperor and will never come to pass, hence the grimdarkness that we are faced with.

Ah i see! In which case i absolutely agree

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


That may have been the Emperor's intent, but by the 41st Millennium that's out the door. You can see it in the dismissive or indifferent attitude toward normal Humans. Even to the point where baseline Humans are called "mortals" by Space Marines, who are not technically immortal and are just jacked-up Humans themselves.

A lot of that comes from the mindwipe that recruits get so that the Chapters get a "blank slate" to work from, a long period of time holding themselves apart from the Imperium at large, and from Girlyman's reforms breaking apart the Legions (who routinely fought alongside baseline Humans in the Imperial Army).


The Primaris Marines are an opportunity to have Marines who have a connection to the Imperium, the people it defends, and act as a badly needed symbol of hope in the current timeframe. The Imperium needs fewer Space Sharks, Flesh Tearers, and Marines Malevolent, and more Salamanders, Lamenters, and Space Wolves when it comes to attitude. And we don't need a "Horus Heresy 2.0" in the setting. Things are crap enough in the galaxy, as is.


Grimdark is fine. That's part of 40k's flavor. But there comes a point where "GRIMDARK" becomes "GRIMDERP". You need a certain amount of "NOBLEBRIGHT" to offer a counter-balance to keep things in check.

Very good points, and i agree with them mostly. Very good point about the Emperor's vision of humanity being formost having been eroded through the millennia. Definitely like that

I'd disagree that Primaris Marines are an opportunity for their warriors to be closer to humanity. They're anything but. Rather than uplifted and augmented humans who believe they're gods among men, they're vat-grown genetic abominations that were never human in the first place. It's one of the saving graces of their fluff

As for the idea that we need a bit of noblebright in the universe so it doesn't just get endlessly depressing i do agree with you, but never in a million years should it come from Guilliman returning and magicing up a new bunch of merry superheroes. It should come from the bottom, not the top. The Imperium still stands not due to Primarchs, but through the utter bravery of countless millions of men, women and marines fighting wars in which they are hopelessly outclassed. If you want your noblebright, make it about everyday bravery.

And besides, we've got plenty enough noblebright as it is.

We have Necrons bro-fisting Blood Angels, a get-out-of-jail-free card for the Eldar with minimal consequences, two brand spanking new expansion fleets for the Tau, and after all this hoo-ha about Chaos during the Gathering Storm we're still at the point where Chaos has gained sod-all but the Imperium is stronger than ever. Yes Chaos has taken Cadia, but the surrounding space is now more fortified than ever thanks to thousands of new chapters of Cawls spangly new vat-chimerics (now vastly outbumbering the CSM). Fenris and Baal are destroyed...just in time for Cawl's spangly new Primaris process to mean that both of those losses were inconsequential. Oh, and the Imperium has a Primarch now, a unified government, and a heroic figurehead.

In isolation, each would have been a neat little light to contrast the grimdark. Taken together, it's just the depressing suggestion that 40k isn't actually grimdark at all any more.

The thing about Guilliman not liking the Primaris marines is not true. He seems to favour them in the novel more than anything and even makes one a Tetrarch.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Yeah I think that's a really nice foil to the jarring noblebright of the Primaris Marines. Make it like the Men of Iron thing. Big E was dead certain to make his Marines from humans, so they knew what it was like to be human. Primaris Marines have no concept of what it was like to be human. No connection to the people they're fighting and dying for, other than what they're told/indoctrinated to believe.

Based on that, and the precedents in the 40k universe for trying to use technology to better your situation (Men of Iron, 21st Founding), it should be inevitable that the Primaris Marines are going to rebel.

Whether they will or not I don't know. They definitely should though. It's definitely feeling a bit too noblebright at the moment.

That may have been the Emperor's intent, but by the 41st Millennium that's out the door. You can see it in the dismissive or indifferent attitude toward normal Humans. Even to the point where baseline Humans are called "mortals" by Space Marines, who are not technically immortal and are just jacked-up Humans themselves.

A lot of that comes from the mindwipe that recruits get so that the Chapters get a "blank slate" to work from, a long period of time holding themselves apart from the Imperium at large, and from Girlyman's reforms breaking apart the Legions (who routinely fought alongside baseline Humans in the Imperial Army).


The Primaris Marines are an opportunity to have Marines who have a connection to the Imperium, the people it defends, and act as a badly needed symbol of hope in the current timeframe. The Imperium needs fewer Space Sharks, Flesh Tearers, and Marines Malevolent, and more Salamanders, Lamenters, and Space Wolves when it comes to attitude. And we don't need a "Horus Heresy 2.0" in the setting. Things are crap enough in the galaxy, as is.


Grimdark is fine. That's part of 40k's flavor. But there comes a point where "GRIMDARK" becomes "GRIMDERP". You need a certain amount of "NOBLEBRIGHT" to offer a counter-balance to keep things in check.

Except the Chapters like the Salamanders, Lamenters, and Space Wolves are led by absolute morons who pointlessly squander resources over useless heroism to 'save' civilians who will only die as dejected refguees on another world. Their deaths are spending a precious resource on protecting that which is worth literally less than dirt- there are quintillions/quadrillions of humans in 40k and they are very, very expendable. The Chapters such as the Carcharodons, Dark Angels, and Iron Hands are far more competent and efficient in their expenditure of lives.

Cor i've got my depressing hat on today. I'm not normally this negative about fluff!

I will say this, despite the solid feeling that pretty much all of the new fluff feels way too positive, it is still a fantastic feat of imagination, and has offered a ton of inspiration for my own ideas, twisting it to suit a darker more desperate bokeh


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Robin5t wrote:
The thing about Guilliman not liking the Primaris marines is not true. He seems to favour them in the novel more than anything and even makes one a Tetrarch.

Of course he does one vat-born genetic abomination surrounded by thousands of other vat-born genetic abominations.

Only a matter of time before they decide that the puny humans are holding them back

 Wyzilla wrote:


Except the Chapters like the Salamanders, Lamenters, and Space Wolves are led by absolute morons who pointlessly squander resources over useless heroism to 'save' civilians who will only die as dejected refguees on another world. Their deaths are spending a precious resource on protecting that which is worth literally less than dirt- there are quintillions/quadrillions of humans in 40k and they are very, very expendable. The Chapters such as the Carcharodons, Dark Angels, and Iron Hands are far more competent and efficient in their expenditure of lives.

Ooh i like that neat idea!

We have Necrons bro-fisting Blood Angels, a get-out-of-jail-free card for the Eldar with minimal consequences, two brand spanking new expansion fleets for the Tau, and after all this hoo-ha about Chaos during the Gathering Storm we're still at the point where Chaos has gained sod-all but the Imperium is stronger than ever. Yes Chaos has taken Cadia, but the surrounding space is now more fortified than ever thanks to thousands of new chapters of Cawls spangly new vat-chimerics (now vastly outbumbering the CSM). Fenris and Baal are destroyed...just in time for Cawl's spangly new Primaris process to mean that both of those losses were inconsequential. Oh, and the Imperium has a Primarch now, a unified government, and a heroic figurehead.

the necrons bro fisting the blood agnels was a short even t (that opccured years ago) that had a negliable effect. in the end it did NOT stop the hive fleet from nearly devouring Baal.

the Eldar having the Ynaari really doesn't change much.

Chaos is doing better then ever, I had a chance to read the core rule book today, including the fluff bits that didn't make the leak. Nurgle is invading Ultramar intent on basicly turning it into his own realm, and every other chaos Lord has looked at it, gone "that's a great idea!" and started attempting to build THEIR own realm in real space. meanwhile the eye of terror runs accross the galaxy. so yeah the idea chaos is somehow contained is laughable. the Primaris Marines aren't leading to a defeat of chaos, they're just barely managing to prevent the Iom from being completely fethed. yeah a Primarch is back, but Gulliman is pushing himself hard just keeping things together. he's only one man, primarch or not.

as for the new Tau expansion fleets, how the hell is that grim bright, the Tau are the enemy. that just means "more bad guys invading the IOM"

this is partiuclarly bad given the Ultima segmentium is proably stretched thin fighting in Ultramar.

BrianDavion wrote:


the necrons bro fisting the blood agnels was a short even t (that opccured years ago) that had a negliable effect. in the end it did NOT stop the hive fleet from nearly devouring Baal.

the Eldar having the Ynaari really doesn't change much.

Chaos is doing better then ever, I had a chance to read the core rule book today, including the fluff bits that didn't make the leak. Nurgle is invading Ultramar intent on basicly turning it into his own realm, and every other chaos Lord has looked at it, gone "that's a great idea!" and started attempting to build THEIR own realm in real space. meanwhile the eye of terror runs accross the galaxy. so yeah the idea chaos is somehow contained is laughable. the Primaris Marines aren't leading to a defeat of chaos, they're just barely managing to prevent the Iom from being completely fethed. yeah a Primarch is back, but Gulliman is pushing himself hard just keeping things together. he's only one man, primarch or not.

as for the new Tau expansion fleets, how the hell is that grim bright, the Tau are the enemy. that just means "more bad guys invading the IOM"

this is partiuclarly bad given the Ultima segmentium is proably stretched thin fighting in Ultramar.

Well, the revelation that the Chaos Lords are building realms in realspace comes as a genuine relief. For me, personally, the noblebright genuinely was becoming unbearable.

The Necrons bro-fisting the Blood Angels was just one example among many where two factions that should have butchered each other ended up being pally pally, which is noblebright enough for me.

The Ynnari is a massive thing for the eldar. The whole basis of the eldar's nuance is their inevitable self-inflicted doom, amd the lengths they'll go to to avoid that. Ynnead seems to be pitched as a catch-free solution to that. If it turns out that Ynnead is just as bad as Slaanesh for the Eldar i'll be ecstatic, but til then it's in the solidly noblebright category.

You've definitely got the right thoughts in your head about the Tau though they're absolutely the enemy, just a more insidious one that the 'put your head on a spike' chaos cultists.

I'm definitely glad you posted about Chaos' expansion genuinely made me feel better. Now if we can just have some primaris go rogue in a big way, the eldar betray the Imperium because they're tricksy self-serving xenos, Ynnead end up being just as toxic as Khaine (who, remember, tried to genocide the eldar), and the Tau get just a tad more 'propaganda state' feel to them and i'll be happy

Oh, and less of the 'space egyptian' feel to Necrons. More lovecraftian space horror please
Then i'll feel like the grimdark is roughly where it should be

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
The thing about Guilliman not liking the Primaris marines is not true. He seems to favour them in the novel more than anything and even makes one a Tetrarch.

Of course he does one vat-born genetic abomination surrounded by thousands of other vat-born genetic abominations.

Only a matter of time before they decide that the puny humans are holding them back

Guilliman already has thoughts of this nature in the book. He regrets leaving governance of the 500 worlds to regular humans because they clearly proved themselves incapable of doing so effectively, hence why he re-introduces the Tetrarchs.

If the Primaris Marines rebel against Guilliman and the Imperium I'm done with 40k. "Furthering the plot" does nothing if we end up in the same place we started.

With what I'm hearing from the new book, a new rebellion would be completely justified in putting Guilliman down if he does appear to be usurping the Emperor.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


the necrons bro fisting the blood agnels was a short even t (that opccured years ago) that had a negliable effect. in the end it did NOT stop the hive fleet from nearly devouring Baal.

the Eldar having the Ynaari really doesn't change much.

Chaos is doing better then ever, I had a chance to read the core rule book today, including the fluff bits that didn't make the leak. Nurgle is invading Ultramar intent on basicly turning it into his own realm, and every other chaos Lord has looked at it, gone "that's a great idea!" and started attempting to build THEIR own realm in real space. meanwhile the eye of terror runs accross the galaxy. so yeah the idea chaos is somehow contained is laughable. the Primaris Marines aren't leading to a defeat of chaos, they're just barely managing to prevent the Iom from being completely fethed. yeah a Primarch is back, but Gulliman is pushing himself hard just keeping things together. he's only one man, primarch or not.

as for the new Tau expansion fleets, how the hell is that grim bright, the Tau are the enemy. that just means "more bad guys invading the IOM"

this is partiuclarly bad given the Ultima segmentium is proably stretched thin fighting in Ultramar.

Well, the revelation that the Chaos Lords are building realms in realspace comes as a genuine relief. For me, personally, the noblebright genuinely was becoming unbearable.

The Necrons bro-fisting the Blood Angels was just one example among many where two factions that should have butchered each other ended up being pally pally, which is noblebright enough for me.

The Ynnari is a massive thing for the eldar. The whole basis of the eldar's nuance is their inevitable self-inflicted doom, amd the lengths they'll go to to avoid that. Ynnead seems to be pitched as a catch-free solution to that. If it turns out that Ynnead is just as bad as Slaanesh for the Eldar i'll be ecstatic, but til then it's in the solidly noblebright category.

You've definitely got the right thoughts in your head about the Tau though they're absolutely the enemy, just a more insidious one that the 'put your head on a spike' chaos cultists.

I'm definitely glad you posted about Chaos' expansion genuinely made me feel better. Now if we can just have some primaris go rogue in a big way, the eldar betray the Imperium because they're tricksy self-serving xenos, Ynnead end up being just as toxic as Khaine (who, remember, tried to genocide the eldar), and the Tau get just a tad more 'propaganda state' feel to them and i'll be happy

Oh, and less of the 'space egyptian' feel to Necrons. More lovecraftian space horror please
Then i'll feel like the grimdark is roughly where it should be

I think though that if you step back, every faction seems to be having something "good" happen to it. and if thats the case, could we be essentially back to square 1 simply because of the "Red queen effect" where all the factions in 40k have to "run as fast as they can, just to stay where they are" if thats the case we should expect to see something from Orks, Necrons and Tyranids that'll raise their threat level (unless GW has decided that part of the problem with chaos was the xenos races where too big a deal)

Hmmm, I think you're right, and perhaps I'm being unduly critical of the recent fluff. I was very concerned when the rumours of the whole Ynnari thing started bubbling up, but that actually turned out to be more nuanced than I'd expected. Or, at the very least, more filled with potential suggestions for nuance, which is probably the best possible thing for a piece of 40k fluff to have.

There's a possibility for the same to be the case for the Primaris Marines, and I'm waiting for some more detail to come out about them. The early snippets from the Community group seem to have missed the memo that the Imperium has been dying a death of a thousand cuts for the past 10k years, not developing technological marvels. We'll see if they offer opportunity for nuanced headcanon-ing with the rest of the fluff.

I guess I suppose it's just getting a little tiresome having to continually headcanon stuff to not have races acting like happy families, or solid lines of 'good guy/bad guy' being drawn up. I suppose as well that that's what 40k is about, allowing each person to season it with however much grimdark they feel best compliments the universe, while offering jumping points for ideas.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
If the Primaris Marines rebel against Guilliman and the Imperium I'm done with 40k. "Furthering the plot" does nothing if we end up in the same place we started.

You know what, agreed. If they just had the Primaris Marines up and rebel en-masse that would just be ham-fisted. There's better ways to do this.

Just throw in suggestions here and there that everything isn't quite what it seems with Cawl's golden children. Have them just beginning to ask the same questions that the Traitors did leading up to the Heresy (which are perfectly rational questions to ask). Why am I fighting and dying for these people I have no real connection to? Why am I fighting to uphold the will of a dictator?

It'd be unrealistic for all of them at once to say 'nah, the Imperium's for suckers'. What would be cool is just that they're not quite as heroic as they first appear. Despite the fact that they are categorically not human, they could begin to ask some very human questions to their creators...

Rebellion's not what I'm asking for. What I'm asking for is foreboding.

I think that if anyone is going to sever from the Imperium, it's Guilliman himself. The Emperor's people have lost their way and are irredeemable—the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy specifically— and its high time that we go back to the good old days. This would be a grand time to compare the current Imperium to Lorgar's vision of the Imperium. The Ecclesiarchy would bend over backwards to defend themselves.

Ave Imperium Secundus!

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I think that if anyone is going to sever from the Imperium, it's Guilliman himself. The Emperor's people have lost their way and are irredeemable—the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy specifically— and its high time that we go back to the good old days. This would be a grand time to compare the current Imperium to Lorgar's vision of the Imperium. The Ecclesiarchy would bend over backwards to defend themselves.

Gulliman is clearly REALLY frustrated with the current state of the IoM, sas a result he seems to be acting considerably more autocratic then he was during the HH era.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I think that if anyone is going to sever from the Imperium, it's Guilliman himself. The Emperor's people have lost their way and are irredeemable—the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy specifically— and its high time that we go back to the good old days. This would be a grand time to compare the current Imperium to Lorgar's vision of the Imperium. The Ecclesiarchy would bend over backwards to defend themselves.

10,000 years of worship in a corpse god is a lot of indoctrination to get past. The Ecclesiarchy serve the saviour of mankind. Guilliman is returned by the hand of an enemy and is actively working to 'better' the Emperors own divine works.

There will be tears before bedtime.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I think that if anyone is going to sever from the Imperium, it's Guilliman himself. The Emperor's people have lost their way and are irredeemable—the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy specifically— and its high time that we go back to the good old days. This would be a grand time to compare the current Imperium to Lorgar's vision of the Imperium. The Ecclesiarchy would bend over backwards to defend themselves.

10,000 years of worship in a corpse god is a lot of indoctrination to get past. The Ecclesiarchy serve the saviour of mankind. Guilliman is returned by the hand of an enemy and is actively working to 'better' the Emperors own divine works.

There will be tears before bedtime.

how many people know the Aeladari where involved in his ressurection though? precious few I bet

Also, if the Imperium is going to have another schism, Chaos needs to be reduced. If the Imperium breaks again (now into 3 pieces, the Imperium, Guilliman's forces and the Dark Imperium) then the only logical end to the story is a Chaos victory.

that said there does seem to besome tension in Dark Imperium. IMHO Gulliman NEEDS another Primarch to return, someone to keep him balanced and in check

I hope Jaghatai Khan or Vulkan comes back. Either of those two would keep Guilliman's head on straight.