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Anyone find it odd that Guilliman closed the Library of Ptolemy so nobody would learn of Imperium Secundus but apparently in the 10,000 years of it being open nobody had managed to see it?
What are the chances of an Inquisitor or somebody else having learnt about it but didn't have any reason to use that information until now?
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: Anyone find it odd that Guilliman closed the Library of Ptolemy so nobody would learn of Imperium Secundus but apparently in the 10,000 years of it being open nobody had managed to see it?
What are the chances of an Inquisitor or somebody else having learnt about it but didn't have any reason to use that information until now?
by closing the Library it'd be a lot harder to aquire proof?
truthfully my gut feel is Imperium secondus if word became common knowledge it might be a bit of a distraction, Gulliman I think is also EMBARASSED by the whole thing
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Of course he does one vat-born genetic abomination surrounded by thousands of other vat-born genetic abominations.
Only a matter of time before they decide that the puny humans are holding them back
Ooh i like that neat idea!
Excepte like 99% (if not all) are actually regular humans that underwent the process in their early teens.
...how boring. Another potentially fruitful option for narrative conflict cut off. Ah well, I'm sure we'll be able to find something of interest in these glaringly noblebright Marines+1 with no downsides...
BrianDavion wrote: that said there does seem to besome tension in Dark Imperium. IMHO Gulliman NEEDS another Primarch to return, someone to keep him balanced and in check
Should definitely be The Lion I doubt he'd be particularly impressed with Guilliman's pact with xenos. He certainly wouldn't pull any punches about it either, and is suspicious enough to find it out.
by closing the Library it'd be a lot harder to aquire proof?
truthfully my gut feel is Imperium secondus if word became common knowledge it might be a bit of a distraction, Gulliman I think is also EMBARASSED by the whole thing
Yeah but influential figures, especially if they managed to take pic-cams or something, would definitely be able to draw attention to it and raise suspicions about Guilliman's unilateral taking over. I find it hard to believe that it hasn't been discovered and recorded somewhere.
Ynneadwraith wrote:Should definitely be The Lion I doubt he'd be particularly impressed with Guilliman's pact with xenos. He certainly wouldn't pull any punches about it either, and is suspicious enough to find it out.
Considering the Watchers in the Dark and that weird Tuchulcha thing the Lion might be a bit more open to the idea. Guilliman taking over the Imperium though? Probably not so much. Didn't he feel like only the Emperor could rule and none other could or should replace him?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 12:12:20
I am not to sure where the idea, that Primaris Marines, are vat grown. I looked up all the community posts about them and searched for "vat", and got nadda. Nor could I find anything on the rumour thread first post summary. Was it a facebook thing?
If I recall correctly, in the old Index Astartes it is mentioned that they use vat-grown slaves to multiply out, over 55 years, to create a chapters worth of geneseed.
So are the vat-grown Primaris just refering to the ones that had their geneseed grown in a vat, but was actually implanted in a normal human? So are Primaris Marines all Terran or something? Plenty of desposable humans on ancient Terra.
I honestly want to know where it came from, because we could be wrong and snowballed.
Ynneadwraith wrote: And besides, we've got plenty enough noblebright as it is.
You have to have some level of brightness against which to appreciate the darkness. Without some light, the darkness gets boring and thematically oppressive.
In my personal fluff, to explain my Necron army and how they fit into what my personal stories, I ended up having them ally with some Space Marines to fight Chaos and Orks. Why? Because on this particular Tomb World of this particular Dynasty, the long sleep was interrupted for the Overlord of this world, and he was awoken a long time ago, alone. During the MILLIONS of years with no company save for the Canoptek maintenance Scarabs, he sat and watched his world, bored out of his mind. As the world became populated by humans later on, he took it upon himself to become a guardian of these little mortals, and would do what he could to protect the denizens of his world from invading threats. Now, he has a superiority complex and takes it upon himself to save these little pets of his, the humans of his world in his sector of space. Then when the Tomb World finally awoke, he is dealing with the politics of the rest of his Dynasty leadership not wanting to waste time protecting humans and to expand their territory.
Why do I bring this bit of personal head-canon up? Because it was something I was able to come up with based on the then-new fluff of the Necrons. By changing them from the cosmic-horror robots into a faction that can have actual characters with flaws and qualities that can interact with others. I came up with my head-canon a couple years before Gathering Storm I, where we saw Trazyn helping the Imperium. Because the setting was changed (retconned, really) we were able to have some new character and faction interaction that would not have been possible before. This change gave an opportunity to have the Necrons actually participate in the events surrounding the Gathering Storm.
The point I am trying to make with this is that new stuff will need a few years to really affect the setting.
The Primaris Marines are brand, spanking, new to the setting. They and Guilliman's actions have many similarities to the early days of the Imperium of Man, and I see that as something that can be explored and give new depth to the Space Marines. Will some of the Primaris fall to Chaos? Will they end up being like Thunder Warriors? What is the Primaris Marines are immune to effects of their gene-seed, or what if they are even more susceptible? Will Guilliman make the same mistakes as his father, the Emperor? How will the Ecclesiarchy and other political powers in the Imperium react to the Primaris Marines and how they end up? If/When the other Primarchs return, what will they think of the Primaris Marines?
We need to have a couple years of the new lore before jumping to any massive conclusions about the setting getting massively changed. I mean, if super-Space Marines for the Imperium are possible, what's to stop GW from coming out with Fabius Bile doing something equivalent for Chaos? GW can only release so much at a time, and we need to be patient.
Of course he does one vat-born genetic abomination surrounded by thousands of other vat-born genetic abominations.
Only a matter of time before they decide that the puny humans are holding them back
Ooh i like that neat idea!
Excepte like 99% (if not all) are actually regular humans that underwent the process in their early teens.
...how boring. Another potentially fruitful option for narrative conflict cut off. Ah well, I'm sure we'll be able to find something of interest in these glaringly noblebright Marines+1 with no downsides...
BrianDavion wrote: that said there does seem to besome tension in Dark Imperium. IMHO Gulliman NEEDS another Primarch to return, someone to keep him balanced and in check
Should definitely be The Lion I doubt he'd be particularly impressed with Guilliman's pact with xenos. He certainly wouldn't pull any punches about it either, and is suspicious enough to find it out.
the problem with the Lion is he's an donkey-cave. and an ambitious one, what Gulliman needs right now IMHO is someone to poke him with a degree of optimism etc. who can go "yeah there's a lot of gakky stuff but hey, look at these guys! they're doing the right things, for the right reasons. there are still good and worthy people!"
IMHO Vulkan right now would be a good foil for Gulliman, or even possiably Lemen Russ
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Ynneadwraith wrote: Yeah I think that's a really nice foil to the jarring noblebright of the Primaris Marines. Make it like the Men of Iron thing. Big E was dead certain to make his Marines from humans, so they knew what it was like to be human. Primaris Marines have no concept of what it was like to be human. No connection to the people they're fighting and dying for, other than what they're told/indoctrinated to believe.
Based on that, and the precedents in the 40k universe for trying to use technology to better your situation (Men of Iron, 21st Founding), it should be inevitable that the Primaris Marines are going to rebel.
Whether they will or not I don't know. They definitely should though. It's definitely feeling a bit too noblebright at the moment.
The Primaris Marines are also closer to the Primarchs than normal marines. Notice how half the primarchs rebelled after being around for only a short time, while post heresy normal marines are fairly loyal, only a few chapters turn traitor a century.
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Ynneadwraith wrote: Yeah I think that's a really nice foil to the jarring noblebright of the Primaris Marines. Make it like the Men of Iron thing. Big E was dead certain to make his Marines from humans, so they knew what it was like to be human. Primaris Marines have no concept of what it was like to be human. No connection to the people they're fighting and dying for, other than what they're told/indoctrinated to believe.
Based on that, and the precedents in the 40k universe for trying to use technology to better your situation (Men of Iron, 21st Founding), it should be inevitable that the Primaris Marines are going to rebel.
Whether they will or not I don't know. They definitely should though. It's definitely feeling a bit too noblebright at the moment.
The Primaris Marines are also closer to the Primarchs than normal marines. Notice how half the primarchs rebelled after being around for only a short time, while post heresy normal marines are fairly loyal, only a few chapters turn traitor a century.
Chapters have lots of indoctrination and love for a figure that never appears to disappoint them. Primarchs grew up on a variety of environments which mostly were unpleasant and had to deal with a giant donkey cave Emperor...
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
I have a couple of thoughts.
1. There should never be a Chaos Primaris. The closest thing I would see is a Badab War where the Space Marines become Leaders of a planet/sector of space and run their own empires.
2. Emperor is a flawed and very closed minded individual that couldn't see what was in front of him. Example: What he did with the Psykers and Magnus and what followed it and the Heresy in general.
3. Roboute has to deal with an Imperium that has too many independent organizations who have their own goals in mind, so of course, he will have to go autocrat again.
Nova_Impero wrote: I have a couple of thoughts.
1. There should never be a Chaos Primaris. The closest thing I would see is a Badab War where the Space Marines become Leaders of a planet/sector of space and run their own empires.
2. Emperor is a flawed and very closed minded individual that couldn't see what was in front of him. Example: What he did with the Psykers and Magnus and what followed it and the Heresy in general.
3. Roboute has to deal with an Imperium that has too many independent organizations who have their own goals in mind, so of course, he will have to go autocrat again.
\
oh agreed, his going full autocrat is proably going to be required. which is why IMHO he could benifit from a brother on hand to ocasionally point out where it's unnesscary. rumor has it Russ is coming back, and Russ'll be a good check on Gulliman. Russ is loyal, lacks much in the way of personal ambition. is fairly straight talking.
I think they'd play well off each other
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
more to the point, GW seems to be wanting to move to diffrentiate the chaos space marine and space marine lines. Primaris Marines is likely to be how they'll do it. "well none of these new things have fallen to chaos yet, thats why chaos lacks it"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Ynneadwraith wrote: And besides, we've got plenty enough noblebright as it is.
You have to have some level of brightness against which to appreciate the darkness. Without some light, the darkness gets boring and thematically oppressive.
I hope you understand that I'm not saying you're wrong more just musing aloud as I try and work this out in my head. Also, ultimately it's all down to personal preference, and the 40k writers have to appeal to a whole lot of different people. However, I hear a lot of people saying 'you have to have some noblebright to appreciate the darkness'. I just don't buy it.
Not a speck of noblebright to be found. Despite that (or more likely aided by that), it's stone-cold awesome. I get that it's not everyone's thing, but it's proof that you don't need a bit of noblebright to highlight the darkness. Darkness just is.
What I suspect people actually mean when they say 'you need a bit of noblebright' is 'I like a bit of noblebright', which is absolutely fine one of the best things about 40k compared to so many other IPs is that it both allows and encourages you to do your own thing with it. However, it's a very different thing from saying 'you need' something. I will concede that perhaps Iron Sleet is actually more awesome because it's dark compared to regular 40k, making it seem like something different and cool. That's a definite thing that happens in all sorts of stuff. However, I'll stick to my guns in saying that on the whole it feels like too much nice stuff has happened in the recent fluff for my liking. I can't help but feel that too much nice stuff happening kind of detracts from the feeling that the 40k universe is in a desperate situation.
I must admit I probably shouldn't have brought up Newcrons as that's a whole different debate not overly related to the 'grimdark/noblebright spectrum' discussion, although it plays into it slightly. My issue with it isn't that Newcrons have more personality, and options for neat narrative things to do. That's a definite improvement. My issue with Newcrons is that they don't feel like a threat. They don't even feel special compared to any of the other nasty factions.
With Oldcrons, they genuinely felt like a cosmic terror bubbling up from the depths of history. They were mysterious, we had no idea what their full capabilities were, and they were dangerous. A true threat to the squishies of the galaxy on par with Chaos and the Tyranids.
With Newcrons, I don't quite know what it is but they just feel humdrum. They feel like just another bunch of dudes rebuilding their empire, like half a dozen other dudes in the 40k galaxy. Imperium - Empire Builders. Eldar - Empire Builders. Tau - Empire Builders. It just seems like such a mortal thing to do. The big threats of the galaxy, Chaos and the 'nids, laugh at the puny little mortals scrabbling around in the dust building their sandcastles and throwing rocks at one-another. Chaos is the Destroyer of Empires. The Tyranids are the Consumer of Galaxies. The Necrons used to be 'The Primal Cosmic Terror'. Now they're just robots pretending they're mortals, scrabbling around in the dirt with them saying 'look guys, we can make sandcastles just like you'. They should be better than that. They should be tearing down the transient pathetic empires of the younger races of the galaxy not because they want to build their own sandcastle, but because they're deathless robots from the dawn of time and everything is impermanent when you're immortal.
From that backdrop, you're more than welcome to have kooky old Necrons who have gone a bit bonkers during their stasis and act more noblebright, but it still feels like the Necrons as a whole are a galactic-level threat again, rather than squabbling senile space-egyptians that have forgotten they used to be so powerful they wiped out The Old Ones and the C'Tan. Honestly, it takes some serious talent to make a race that genocided the two most powerful species the galaxy has ever seen feel like a bit-player.
Sorry for going so widely off-topic, and I know we've had conversations about Newcrons vs Oldcrons before, but it helps to demonstrate slightly why I feel that having something bad happen with the Primaris Marines is pretty necessary. Yes Chaos has teeth now which is brilliant, but it seems like the Imperium has the Deus Ex Machina answer for that. If they were surrounded by credible threats from the Necrons, Tyranids, Orks and Eldar (which should be a threat, not an ally) it would be a different story. They would feel assailed form all sides. At the moment they feel assailed from one side, with some bit players chipping away elsewhere and a new ally.
I get that it's just the initial impression though, and there's a lot more fluff to come. By the nature of their releases they tend to focus on one threat at a time, so there's hopefully more to come. I've been pleasantly surprised by a lot of the new fluff when more details have come out about it, so I should probably quit complaining and just wait to see what they put out
You know what, agreed. When I first read that I thought 'why the hell not?', but the more I think about it the more I like it.
Having Chaos as the sole reason any humans rebel against the others is a little unimaginative. It would be nice if some of them rebelled just because they didn't like being treated like tools, because they learnt something terrible about their nature, or something else neat like that
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/08 10:24:49
Ynneadwraith wrote: And besides, we've got plenty enough noblebright as it is.
You have to have some level of brightness against which to appreciate the darkness. Without some light, the darkness gets boring and thematically oppressive.
I hope you understand that I'm not saying you're wrong more just musing aloud as I try and work this out in my head. Also, ultimately it's all down to personal preference, and the 40k writers have to appeal to a whole lot of different people. However, I hear a lot of people saying 'you have to have some noblebright to appreciate the darkness'. I just don't buy it.
And it's all up to personal taste, and that's fine. I like to see the heroes beat the bad guys, and have some personal drama and character development along the way; for example, I love the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and Captain America: Civil War was a brilliant culmination of all the movies leading into something triumphant yet disheartening.
Seeing a Primarch return and kicking but for a century, and now as has been revealed in the Dark Imperium novel, has some potential issues within the Imperium to keep track of, seems to me a comparable bitter-sweet event for the heroes of the Imperium (even though it is a bit more sweet than bitter).
Not a speck of noblebright to be found. Despite that (or more likely aided by that), it's stone-cold awesome. I get that it's not everyone's thing, but it's proof that you don't need a bit of noblebright to highlight the darkness. Darkness just is.
Looks like some cool stuff there! I may have to dig deeper later when I get the chance.
Ynneadwraith wrote: What I suspect people actually mean when they say 'you need a bit of noblebright' is 'I like a bit of noblebright', which is absolutely fine one of the best things about 40k compared to so many other IPs is that it both allows and encourages you to do your own thing with it. However, it's a very different thing from saying 'you need' something. I will concede that perhaps Iron Sleet is actually more awesome because it's dark compared to regular 40k, making it seem like something different and cool. That's a definite thing that happens in all sorts of stuff. However, I'll stick to my guns in saying that on the whole it feels like too much nice stuff has happened in the recent fluff for my liking. I can't help but feel that too much nice stuff happening kind of detracts from the feeling that the 40k universe is in a desperate situation.
Fair point. The setting may not "need" it, but I think my point still stands from a bigger perspective in that one needs to see different bright or dark settings in order to have an appreciation for those settings. I mean, one could watch Flash Gordon for a fun, happy movie, and then enjoy and appreciate 40K as the grim-dark setting they enjoy. If everything that you (general you) take in as a consumer is grim-dark, then eventually you will get "blinded by the light" ( ). Since so many people are so into 40K as a setting even if not for the game and hobby aspect, there ought to be some noble-bright or noble-dark in there for the viewer to see what it would look like in the setting.
The Space Wolves are all about heroics and creating sagas and thwarting the biggest, baddest villains and monsters to save the Imperium, as they view themselves as the sky-warriors from their planet's mythology. And what does it get them? Consternation and suspicion from the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition on a regular basis, as their views of honor and virtue clash with the dogmatic, draconian pragmatism of the Imperium at large. It sometimes hinders their abilities and they make sacrifices to save citizens in some cases, and all it gets them is criticism from those they are supposed to be serving (if noble-dark is a thing, I think I found it's definition). There is something heroic to be found in 40K, and for the opening of 8th Edition, they gave us a good dose of it; good, bad, or indifferent, here it is, so let's work with it in our head-canon.
Ynneadwraith wrote: I must admit I probably shouldn't have brought up Newcrons as that's a whole different debate not overly related to the 'grimdark/noblebright spectrum' discussion, although it plays into it slightly. My issue with it isn't that Newcrons have more personality, and options for neat narrative things to do. That's a definite improvement. My issue with Newcrons is that they don't feel like a threat. They don't even feel special compared to any of the other nasty factions.
With Oldcrons, they genuinely felt like a cosmic terror bubbling up from the depths of history. They were mysterious, we had no idea what their full capabilities were, and they were dangerous. A true threat to the squishies of the galaxy on par with Chaos and the Tyranids.
With Newcrons, I don't quite know what it is but they just feel humdrum. They feel like just another bunch of dudes rebuilding their empire, like half a dozen other dudes in the 40k galaxy. Imperium - Empire Builders. Eldar - Empire Builders. Tau - Empire Builders. It just seems like such a mortal thing to do. The big threats of the galaxy, Chaos and the 'nids, laugh at the puny little mortals scrabbling around in the dust building their sandcastles and throwing rocks at one-another. Chaos is the Destroyer of Empires. The Tyranids are the Consumer of Galaxies. The Necrons used to be 'The Primal Cosmic Terror'. Now they're just robots pretending they're mortals, scrabbling around in the dirt with them saying 'look guys, we can make sandcastles just like you'. They should be better than that. They should be tearing down the transient pathetic empires of the younger races of the galaxy not because they want to build their own sandcastle, but because they're deathless robots from the dawn of time and everything is impermanent when you're immortal.
From that backdrop, you're more than welcome to have kooky old Necrons who have gone a bit bonkers during their stasis and act more noblebright, but it still feels like the Necrons as a whole are a galactic-level threat again, rather than squabbling senile space-egyptians that have forgotten they used to be so powerful they wiped out The Old Ones and the C'Tan. Honestly, it takes some serious talent to make a race that genocided the two most powerful species the galaxy has ever seen feel like a bit-player.
My point raised with the new Necron lore is that it has taken a few years for some real significance to come out of it. Yes, they lost something in the change for 5th Edition, but they gained something as well in characterization and development. Instead of big scary villain that can never be truly stopped, they are now something that can be defeated, and the Necrons recognize that and have to come to terms with how they fit in the galaxy and how they will move forward. This is only possible now because new lore was introduced, however disruptive it was. Like the Necrons figuring out their place, the Primaris Marines will now also have to figure out their place in Chapters that may not appreciate these young upstarts coming in, or a Chapter that doesn't want assistance from Guilliman (for whatever reason). Sure, the Necrons lost that mystery, which does make them feel less of a threat, but it gives players an opportunity to create their own Dynasties and Tomb Worlds and possible motivations for their characters.
(Believe me, I hear you on that mysteriousness factor. It's the same thing that happened to Doctor Who a few years back when Moffat took over head writing for the show - the mysteries just keep getting explained! Argh!)
As for the original Codex portraying the Necrons as the old threat from deep in history, I always thought that the Codexes (Codices?) were Imperial propaganda or dossiers on a faction that has been updated over time, which when the Necrons first awoke, that's what they would have been! But as the centuries past and the Imperium begins to have more batles and negotiations or other contact with that faction, then more information is collected and shared between Imperial commanders. YMMV, though.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Sorry for going so widely off-topic, and I know we've had conversations about Newcrons vs Oldcrons before, but it helps to demonstrate slightly why I feel that having something bad happen with the Primaris Marines is pretty necessary. Yes Chaos has teeth now which is brilliant, but it seems like the Imperium has the Deus Ex Machina answer for that. If they were surrounded by credible threats from the Necrons, Tyranids, Orks and Eldar (which should be a threat, not an ally) it would be a different story. They would feel assailed form all sides. At the moment they feel assailed from one side, with some bit players chipping away elsewhere and a new ally.
I get that it's just the initial impression though, and there's a lot more fluff to come. By the nature of their releases they tend to focus on one threat at a time, so there's hopefully more to come. I've been pleasantly surprised by a lot of the new fluff when more details have come out about it, so I should probably quit complaining and just wait to see what they put out
I agree with you on this. While I do like the Eldar (and occasional Necron) working with the Imperium to fight the Great Enemy, it just feels like wasted opportunity. Unless Chaos or the Tyranids become a much more significant threat, any alliance will just feel like a 2v1 boxing fight, not a last-ditch, act three, gathering of the mortal races to make a heroic stand to save the galaxy.
You know what, agreed. When I first read that I thought 'why the hell not?', but the more I think about it the more I like it.
Having Chaos as the sole reason any humans rebel against the others is a little unimaginative. It would be nice if some of them rebelled just because they didn't like being treated like tools, because they learnt something terrible about their nature, or something else neat like that
The potential is all there. I think it would be cool to see more independent-non-Chaos Space Marines and human forces around as viable factions. Let's make it happen!
I'm gonna jump on the bandwagon and say that some faction of Primaris should at on point or another come into conflict with the rest of the imperium, whether through Chaos, their own volition or at the behest of a primarch rivaling Guilliman. On that note, I expect to see the Lion and the Wolf returning sooner rather than later.
I saw with eyes then young, and this is my testament.
@BunkhouseBuster I won't quote things as I don't want to put up another wall of vaguely off-topic text!
I will say that I absolutely see where you're coming from it absolutely is a matter of personal taste.
Grimdark vs Noblebright
Spoiler:
I quite like the whole comic book hero thing (there's a really neat thing the films have been doing of exploring difficult to answer social questions in ways that the public viewing them don't realise that's what they're thinking about). However, I tend to find the 'goodies beating up baddies' trope a little asinine. It's a massive oversimplification that feels unrealistic. Give me some GoT-style realpolitik and I'm dead pleased
For me, 40k is a little bit of an escape from that as it is (or was, certainly) different from that. The 'goodies' are fascist fanatics, and the 'baddies' are lovecraftian dudes who are actually more 'free' than the 'goodies', Refreshing
Still, absolutely about personal taste
Newcrons
Spoiler:
I absolutely get your point about the Necron fluff needing a while to understand the implications. That's a very good point that applies to the Primaris fluff too
I you've hit the nail on the head with why I feel Necrons aren't a credible threat anymore. We know they can be defeated. That makes them a tame problem.
I don't know if you've come across tame and wicked problems before. 'Tame' and 'wicked' are an additional way of looking at problems that has nothing to do with whether they're hard or not.
A tame problem is a problem we know how to fix. It can still be monstrously difficult to fix it, but we can see the things that need to be done to solve it.
A wicked problem is much more complex. We know there's a problem, but we have no idea how to solve it or even if it can be solved. Wicked problems are scary.
Chaos is a wicked problem. How on earth do you defeat the Chaos Gods? The God-Emperor of mankind, greatest leader of humanity had a plan. His plan failed, and we have no idea if it would have worked anyway.
The Tyranids are a wicked problem. We have no idea if the sector-consuming swarms are the totality of them or just the scouting tendrils.
The Necrons used to be a wicked problem. Now they feel tame, which is categorically not scary, no matter how powerful we're told they actually are.
It's 100% about mystery, and you're right it's lost without that. I agree about Dr Who too! I think people tend to sell out mystery chasing after mic-drop reveals. Fun while they happen, but something is lost when you know too much
2v1 Boxing Matches
Spoiler:
Yeah you're absolutely right that it feels like a 2v1 match. I'd have absolutely loved to see the Eldar throw the Imperium under a bus to save their own hides during the Gathering Storm. It would have fitted their fluff absolutely perfectly.
Lets say everything goes as was up to the point the Black Templars are walking into the webway gate.
However, at this point they're not sent on a galaxy-spanning quest with the Eldar at their side, but thrown onto some god-forsaken battlefield halfway across the galaxy, the outcome of which will help the Eldar. They were going to die anyway, so the Eldar tricked them into making their deaths suit them.
Then you get the opportunity for the Eldar to look like manipulative dickbags, the Imperium to look amazeballs awesome by fighting their way out of a corner they should never have survived, and the story can roll on as normal.
If it was any other IP I'd have expected a 'last ditch gathering of the mortal races', but I feel like that happening in 40k is an absolute waste. Every. Single. Other. IP has that happening and it's tiresome.
The key refreshing thing about 40k for me is that the naive folk of the universe think this is going to happen (usually the Tau, but sometimes humans) and it turns out that the universe isn't as nice as you'd expected, it's filled with horrible self-serving aliens (even the ones that look like you), and you get punished for your ignorance about the true nature of the universe.
It's something different
Other human empires
Spoiler:
I love the idea of other human empires it's a bit of a thing of mine to come up with these for little INQ28-style warbands, and the Dark Imperium is a fantastic opportunity to explore that some more.
Check out my Rogue Tradery plog for that if you fancy
My other thought on this is that it would be really nice for rebellions to not just be caused by Chaos. Like the Badab War, except they don't fall to Chaos at the end making it feel all Chaosy anyway...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 10:03:20
Nova_Impero wrote: Pretty much Blackshields but Primaris Marines is what I want.
That would be cool!
@Ynneadwraith - I'll copy your response format
Grimdark vs Noblebright
Spoiler:
And this is all to taste. I like tea over coffee, blue jeans over khakis, Classic Rock over Hip-hop music, and Star Wars over Star Trek It is cool how a single setting can cater to so many different tastes and styles of story, and that is one of the strengths of the setting - it's big enough for everyone to find something they like, to an extent that the mature and PG-13 rated elements allow.
Newcrons
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I am aware of what you are talking about, though I haven't heard that term before. Some villains/enemies can be defeated completely, while others can only be thwarted and have their plans messed up for a time. Both have their place in any setting, and can be used effectively in different ways, and some antagonists can have elements of both in a story (like Sauron in Lord of the Rings, for example, he is this big, bad threat that is an overwhelming negative force as much as the leader of the enemy, and no one knows if their plan to defeat him will actually work or not).
The new Necron lore I feel was inevitable to an extent. They were mortal empire builders back in the day (if you can count 60 million years as "back in the day" ) and dealt with the Eldar, who would still have records of them. All it would take is for someone to visit the Black Library and find the Eldar records on the Necrons and the War in Heaven, and it would be revealed.
Chaos as a Wicked threat is perfectly valid, and they still are even though so much is known about them and their dealings. Tyranids are now the ones that are supposed to be the "horror" faction, as they just want to eat you and nothing else, like if C'thulu got hungry and wanted human McNuggets. Only thing is that in the fluff, they both constantly struggle to make a significant foothold in the Milky Way, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory on a regular basis, and it makes them not feel less powerful and scary. It is refreshing to see Chaos actually succeed and do something (having Cadia fall was a gutsy move on GW's part) and it has added some significance.
The biggest thing I miss from the old Necron lore is the Pariahs, and the potential that the Necrons wanted to turn every lifeform in the galaxy into one of them was kind of creepy in a classic sci-fi Cybermen/Borg way. (And as I write that out, is very similar to what Chaos does with corruption and Tyranids do with Genestealer Cults. Hm...)
2v1 Boxing Matches
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You think they just brought back Guilliman as a peace offering to the Imperium? I saw it more as the self-serving interest that they pull off on a regular basis in 2 ways: One, the Imperium is under more competent leadership again, which has spent the past century focusing on dealing with the Chaos threat more so than the Xenos threat, with the humans now taking the brunt of the fight with the Great Enemy. And two, the Imperium, particularly Guilliman, now owes the Eldar a favor, and it's a big one! I look forward to when they look to collect on that favor and attempt to exploit the Imperium. The Eldar brought back Guilliman for a reason, not the goodness of their hearts (IMHO, anyways).
We did have the "last ditch gathering of the mortal races", it was on Cadia, where a Techpriest, guided by Eldar and Necron, worked to stop Chaos while human forces held off Chaos. If there had happened to be some Tau in Trazyn's Poke'ball, then it would have been complete
If the "mortal races" work together, we can only hope that it will be handled well.
Other human empires
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I will have to check that stuff out sometime!
But back on topic, I really feel like we could see GW make an attempt to copy the Roman Empire again, especially with the clear and obvious influences on the 40K setting. Once the Roman Empire got too big, it split into East and West, which we are seeing in the new Dark Imperium with the big Warp rift going across the galaxy. Two separate empires united under a shared original vision, but as the years go by, the vision gets blurry from the original, and each begins to handle things on their own in different ways. I am curious how this will all pan out in the long term - will the Primaris affect the Imperium as much as we are hoping? And how will the Dark Imperium truly manage anything other than survival without sight of the Astronomicon?
Three off-topic posts and no issues! We may have solved thread drift!
Grimdark vs Noblebright
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Haha, curious. I too like tea, jeans, and Star Wars over their respective alternatives
Newcrons
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Yeah I do think that finding out more about them was inevitable. You need new stuff to continue to make stuff interesting, but I just feel like it could have been handled in such a better way.
Yes they were empire builders just like everyone else. That's part of their tragedy. They were just like every other mortal race, but now they're hollow robots. They absolutely nothing like the other races of the 40k galaxy any more, and they should feel different. They certainly shouldn't feel like more of the same in robot flavour.
Really, I do think that they could have done pretty much exactly what they did with Newcrons and have it achieve both cosmic horror and Your Dudes friendliness just with a change in scope.
Keep everything about the Oldcrons the same (except maybe the sharding of the C'Tan, I like that). The Necrons remain a cosmic horror terror from the past faceless soulless armada. However, throw in a few stories of Necron Lords who have gone mad in their stasis, or an error in their biotransference meant they felt overwhelming guilt at what they had done. Show the players a few examples of how they can work within the whole 'cosmic horror' thing to make Their Dudes however they like them.
It's a matter of ratios. If all of your leaders are petty, senile old coots then the whole race seems toothless. If the vast majority of your leaders are cold heartless killing machines, but some dudes are different, it makes the factions still feel bloody scary but allows you to have your neat idea about a Necron Dr Who
I'm with you on the Pariah front. Although it was ground already trodden by other factions, it's just too cool/creepy to pass up, and gives us a glimpse of what a Necron-dominated galaxy might look like. Sort of gave them a fitting end-game.
2v1 Boxing Matches
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Oh no, I do think the Eldar are being manipulative with that I just think there was opportunity to actually drive the whole point in further that they aren't to be trusted.
If I'm being critical, I'd say that what happened was the writers wanted the Eldar and the Imperium to work together, but thought it was unlikely, so they put a throwaway conversation in there of some Eldar saying 'oh yeah we should totally manipulate the Imperium to do something that will mainly benefit the Imperium', and thought that would be sufficient enough to paint the Eldar as insidious.
However, the relative lack of insidiousness from the Eldar recently is a bit of a bugbear of mine, so I'm aware I can be overly critical about it!
But back on topic, I really feel like we could see GW make an attempt to copy the Roman Empire again, especially with the clear and obvious influences on the 40K setting. Once the Roman Empire got too big, it split into East and West, which we are seeing in the new Dark Imperium with the big Warp rift going across the galaxy. Two separate empires united under a shared original vision, but as the years go by, the vision gets blurry from the original, and each begins to handle things on their own in different ways. I am curious how this will all pan out in the long term - will the Primaris affect the Imperium as much as we are hoping? And how will the Dark Imperium truly manage anything other than survival without sight of the Astronomicon?
I'd love to see that too, and I remember reading somewhere that they suggested technology might take a different route on either side of the Imperium. That would be a fantastic route to take
Cynical hat back on, I really, really hope they don't go for 'Chaos wins in the Dark Imperium, so there's the Imperium vs Chaos each with half the galaxy'. I actually really doubt they'd do that as I've been pleasantly surprised by a lot of the Gathering Storm's fluff and handling of various things, but I'd just like to register my concern in case anyone's watching!
Ynneadwraith wrote: Three off-topic posts and no issues! We may have solved thread drift! !
Huzzah!
Grimdark vs Noblebright
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Lol, that's funny
Newcrons
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Yeah, a slower transition probably would have made it less jarring of a change. I mean, we did get a reference to the Silent King in the 5th Edition Blood Angels Codex, but that was about it. It might have been a better idea to have saved a couple of the named characters for a later book. They ought to include a named Destroyer Lord or Flayed One Lord in the future, and they could be the "horror" characters the faction is needing.
They could even bring the Pariahs back, giving another Dynasty another option for galactic conquest: assimilation. If we can't beat them, change them! Gives an option for Necrons to have allies on the tabletop now
2v1 Boxing Matches
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It will be interesting to see where things go from here
I don't know if we will see a full on heresy but I bet we see chapters that refuse to accept Primaris marines and completely plausulible there might be small skirmishes between Primaris forces and hard headed Marine Chapters.
I am very hopeful for the Lion and nearly positive Russ will booty be cool with all this.
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
SickSix wrote: I don't know if we will see a full on heresy but I bet we see chapters that refuse to accept Primaris marines and completely plausulible there might be small skirmishes between Primaris forces and hard headed Marine Chapters.
I am very hopeful for the Lion and nearly positive Russ will booty be cool with all this.
apparently Primaris Marines have something like a 94% acceptance rate, and I suspect all offical chapters will accept them (mostly so you don't have a case of "... I wanna play space wovles but they won't take Primaris Marines")
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Oh no, I do think the Eldar are being manipulative with that I just think there was opportunity to actually drive the whole point in further that they aren't to be trusted.
If I'm being critical, I'd say that what happened was the writers wanted the Eldar and the Imperium to work together, but thought it was unlikely, so they put a throwaway conversation in there of some Eldar saying 'oh yeah we should totally manipulate the Imperium to do something that will mainly benefit the Imperium', and thought that would be sufficient enough to paint the Eldar as insidious.
However, the relative lack of insidiousness from the Eldar recently is a bit of a bugbear of mine, so I'm aware I can be overly critical about it!
I don't think they were trying to paint the Ynnari as insidious. That wasn't the point. You still have all the other Aeldari factions for that.
The Ynnari, on the other hand, are supposed to be a different path, the Seventh Way, something different to the methods the other groups are using. Them being more open to legitimate co-operation with Guilliman's Imperium (which does seem to be the case, given Hand of Darkness) makes a lot of sense to me and frankly interests me a lot more than having yet another 'oh, those manipulative Aeldari, look at them manipulating away' group.
You've got the Craftworlds, Commorrites and Harlequins who all pull that on a regular basis anyway if that's what you want to read about. A group like the Ynnari who are comparatively straightforward and more than willing to put in blood, sweat and tears to help fight the good fight is something refreshing and new in the context of this setting.
one vat-born genetic abomination surrounded by thousands of other vat-born genetic abominations.
I doubt he'd be particularly impressed with Guilliman's pact with xenos. He certainly wouldn't pull any punches about it either, and is suspicious enough to find it out.
). Since so many people are so into 
