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"Don't need any pesky Wraithlords"? Why would you ever leave them at home?
Because they are 66% as effective as a Dreadnought and have the same price.
A Wraithlord has the same PL cost as a Dreadnaught, but he's faster, has more Wounds, and has a larger/more flexible load of weapons. I'd definitely describe them as comparable, but I'm not seeing where you're getting "66% as effective" from.
Martel732 wrote: Shuricannon windriders are a bit undercosted still I think. We'll see, though.
So, like, do you think that Razorbacks are just the most broken thing the game has ever seen then?
They have a gun. Singular. That will almost always have -1 to hit. They don't concern me
...what? A Razorback at -1 to hit expects to land 6 S6 AP-1 shots. 3 Windriders at full BS expect to land 6 S6 AP0 hits with the shuriken rule. The Razorback has the option of standing still to increase its hit chance. I... don't understand why the actual number of guns matters, except that it's a disadvantage for the Jetbikes that after the unit takes 2 wounds they start losing firepower.
Dionysodorus wrote: I think the main problem is that 16 points per wound for a multi-wound unit is really expensive. Most infantry and bikes with multiple wounds are over-costed IMO, sometimes significantly. By comparison, vehicles can pay as little as 10 points per T6 or T7 3+ wound. For example, for 100 points you can get a Razorback with a twin assault cannon. That's 10 points per T7 3+ wound, which is obviously far more survivable in the face of 1 or 2 damage weapons than the Jetbikes, along with 12 S6 Ap-1 shots at 24" (albeit from a Heavy gun). It's not quite as fast as the Jetbikes but it does move 12". Meanwhile 3 Jetbikes will run you 96 points for only 6 wounds instead of 10, T4 instead of T7, a 4+ save instead of a 3+ save, and only 9 shots with what's probably overall-worse AP. Also the Razorback is a transport.
The thing to say is that this isn't necessarily a fair comparison against everything else in the game.
I think the dual assault cannon Razorback is undercosted (in fact it might just be the razorback generally, not really looked at other options).
It is in danger of being the new scat-bike - it is clearly very good. The idea that its worth the same as 7.5 tactical marines is just funny.
As you say its tough model to destroy, it does high damage and its fast. Yes it becomes worse with damage, but its still putting out more damage than an equivalent infantry squad which has lost most of its members.
As you point out there is this idea that lascannons and such would be more efficient against them but on probability its fairly marginal or not the case. Bizarrely I think Bs 3+ lascannons are as efficient against regular Tactical marines as they are against Razorbacks - and more so if those marines start carrying more expensive equipment.
Edit - Sorry, screwed the maths up here due to looking at jetbikes. A lascannon is about twice as effective shooting a Razorback as tactical marines. You can however still say this isn't enough.
This is however mainly a problem with the Razorback. A similarly equipped Baal Predator costs about 40% more - and nets you 1 extra wound and a re-rollable advance. Its slightly better when you take two heavy bolter sponsons but not dramatically so - three Razorbacks is clearly better than two predators.
Most vehicles are not as efficient.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/11 16:06:26
The thing to say is that this isn't necessarily a fair comparison against everything else in the game.
I think the dual assault cannon Razorback is undercosted (in fact it might just be the razorback generally, not really looked at other options).
It is in danger of being the new scat-bike - it is clearly very good. The idea that its worth the same as 7.5 tactical marines is just funny.
As you say its tough model to destroy, it does high damage and its fast. Yes it becomes worse with damage, but its still putting out more damage than an equivalent infantry squad which has lost most of its members.
As you point out there is this idea that lascannons and such would be more efficient against them but on probability its fairly marginal or not the case. Bizarrely I think Bs 3+ lascannons are as efficient against regular Tactical marines as they are against Razorbacks - and more so if those marines start carrying more expensive equipment.
Edit - Sorry, screwed the maths up here due to looking at jetbikes. A lascannon is about twice as effective shooting a Razorback as tactical marines. You can however still say this isn't enough.
This is however mainly a problem with the Razorback. A similarly equipped Baal Predator costs about 40% more - and nets you 1 extra wound and a re-rollable advance. Its slightly better when you take two heavy bolter sponsons but not dramatically so - three Razorbacks is clearly better than two predators.
Most vehicles are not as efficient.
Yeah, I'll definitely grant that the Razorback seems too good. I'm not saying that Windriders have to be just as good as it to be in a good spot, but unless it's just ridiculously broken there is something very, very wrong when you're even better off shooting a Lascannon at the Windriders.
I would make two points though. First, it's not just the Razorback that makes multi-wound infantry and bikes look bad. Lots of light vehicles, especially transports, are extremely cost-effective relative to other multi-wound models. The Taurox Prime and Chimera are also great, and both are much more durable and comparably shooty with Windriders for their cost. Inside the Eldar list, you pay about 50% more for a Wave Serpent in exchange for incredible durability, the Serpent Shield, and the ability to tie up enemy units in CC. It's not just transports, though; lots of vehicles that aren't main battle tanks are looking great. Like all the Guard artillery.
Second, multi-wound units just don't look that good compared to single-wound units. Again, plasma is a thing. It's probably going to be pretty popular. In general, lots of the stuff that people are going to want to bring anyway to chew through regular Marines -- like the Eldar Starcannon, for example -- is much, much more effective against these multi-wound units. People are going to have a bunch of this stuff, right? The example that I'm fond of bringing up to talk about Windriders specifically is the Dark Eldar Razorwing. Equipped with Disintegrator Cannons it expects to make back almost all of its points in a single round of shooting at Windriders. If you're going to bring a unit which is so fragile for its cost that most enemy armies are going to have something capable of reaching out and earning back half their points or more in the first turn they fire, that unit absolutely has to have incredible firepower, and the Windriders just aren't that impressive.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/11 16:22:58
Your Razorwing example is a good one. As you say a Wave Serpent is probably superior due to that dramatically higher resilience.
So you are probably right more generally. I expect the meta to be towards horde infantry rather than more elite infantry. This is because as you say elite infantry/bikers just make powerful guns more efficient.
"Don't need any pesky Wraithlords"? Why would you ever leave them at home?
Because they are 66% as effective as a Dreadnought and have the same price.
A Wraithlord has the same PL cost as a Dreadnaught, but he's faster, has more Wounds, and has a larger/more flexible load of weapons. I'd definitely describe them as comparable, but I'm not seeing where you're getting "66% as effective" from.
MinscS2 wrote: I wonder how many of those who complain about the current state of CWE are players who started (bandwagoned if you will) playing CWE during 6th or 7th, and now realized that their army isn't an overpowered point&click-army anymore.
As a Eldar-player since 3d Ed. I'm looking forward grab my Eldar from the shelf they've been on since mid 6th. Perhaps now they'll be fun again.
I don't get the "Why get CWE when you can get Ynnari"-argument. Isn't that like saying "Why play Space Marines when you can play Grey Knights" or "Why play Salamanders when you can play Ultra Marines"? Probably because people *want* to play CWE and not Ynnari? I have 0 interest in Ynnari myself. Not everyone who plays 40k aims to roflstomp your opponent into the dirt you know, far from it.
Yeah Eldar were always a finesse army but the past few editions they became a point and click. I look forward to eldar going back to that
People seem to have not been around during the 2nd -> 3rd transition where there were also a handful of factions that were pretty good with the "get you by" rules in the back of the book, and many that were not terrible but lackluster; the codexes quickly fixed most of those issues. I think it will be the same here.
For me, I like the Eldar fluff and was going to start them just before 8th was announced, so I'm going to play a mix because I think a mix is cool. I will likely make it Ynnari to set it apart from my friend's daughter who plays Craftworlds, but I like that I can jump back and forth as I wish.
"Don't need any pesky Wraithlords"? Why would you ever leave them at home?
Because they are 66% as effective as a Dreadnought and have the same price.
A Wraithlord has the same PL cost as a Dreadnaught, but he's faster, has more Wounds, and has a larger/more flexible load of weapons. I'd definitely describe them as comparable, but I'm not seeing where you're getting "66% as effective" from.
"Power level"
I'm loving every laugh.
Laugh all you like, it is already being adopted at my local. People seem to like it for pickup games. But, that is a topic for another thread.
lord_blackfang wrote: The real problem with CWE is that they're an abandoned line, same as Mini Marines, but nobody has realized it yet.
Yeah, this is probably true, because this has all happened before.
GW is probably making way for the Ynnari as the new xeno/eldar protagonist.
I am waiting to see new fluff from the big rulebook, you can see the craftworlds are listed on some pages while the guy on the video flips through the book.
Maybe the new fluff indicates that craftworld eldar will still be supported, but i doubt it.
Most of you will say "you can still play with your army" or "of course they will not drop craftworld eldar as a faction" or something similar.
Let me ask you this, where is my empire army in the AoS ?
One of the most iconic armies of fantasy, with full plastic range just disappeared overnight from fluff and rules support (those rules released at the beginning are insults, not rules)
Granted, they did not blow up the galaxy completely like they did with fantasy, but the danger of making some factions "legacy" remains.
Like someone said, GW is changing the aesthetic and the narrative. I believe the warhammer most of us fell in love with is gone for good.
Speaking for myself, I would probably not pick up any new GW game if I were not already invested in the setting. Everything seems so dialed up to 11 lately, even compared with old warhammer standards.
So, to close out this rant,
The name of the topic, "Death of Craftworld Eldar", seems appropriate to me.
We may see the slow death of many parts of 40k background and armies in the coming months/years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/12 22:35:46
Wraithlord, Wraithbone Fists, Two Shuriken Cannons, Two Shuriken Catapults 127.
Move 6 vs Move 8-6" - win for Wraithlord
WS 3+ vs WS 3+ to 5+ win for Dreadnaught
BS 3+ vs BS 3+ to 5+ win for Dreadnaught
Str 6 vs Str 7 - win for Wraithlord unitl Dread CCW gets taken.
Tough 7 vs Tough 7 - tie
Wounds 8 vs Wounds 10 - win for Wraithlord
Attacks 4 vs Attacks 3 - win for Dread
Save 3+ for each - tie
Smoke Launchers vs Ancient Doom - win for Dread.
Main weapons - 24" Heavy 6 AP -1 D1 vs 24" Assault 6 Str 6 AP 0, wound roll of 6 AP-3 - Win for the Wraithlord IMO - the AP-1 is easily counteracted by the -1 to hit against anything but 2+ saves.
Potential Upgrades - Plasma Cannon same cost 36" Heavy D3 Str 7/8 AP-3 D1/2 and if you overcharge you die. Compared to Starcannons which are far more expensive, but are Heavy 4, Str 6 AP-3 D 3 which is much, much, much more effective.
Stormbolter vs Catapults - 24" Rapid Fire 2 vs 12" Assault 4 with AP -3 on 6 to wound. Probably a win for the Stormbolter due to range - but once within 12" the catapults are better. Worth noting though - Heavy Flamer upgrade is worse than double Flamer. 2d6 S4 auto hitting > 1d6 Str 5 AP -1.
Dread CCW vs Wraithbone Fists - 4 WS 3+ Str 12 AP -3 D 3 attacks. 3 WS 3+/5+ Str 7 AP-3 D 3 attacks. For 10 points for Glaive for Str 9 AP -4 D d6 - The Dread has the Wraithlord beat here - though it's worth noting the difference between Str 7 and Str 12 is actually not nearly as stark as it seems. The difference between Str 9 and Str 12 is very minor.
Dread overall would be the winner from a pure efficiency standpoint - but the Wraithlord is certainly not 66% as effective? Closer to like 80%-90% as effective - and sometimes more effective. Different factions are good at different things, so direct comparisons are flawed. The Eldar probably shouldn't have big tough melee/ranged combat walkers as effective as Space Marines, right?
Martel732 wrote: Shuricannon windriders are a bit undercosted still I think. We'll see, though.
If they are "a bit undercosted," we really do have to stress the "a bit" part.
8th edition bikes in general seem fine to me. Yes, the points increase that windriders experienced was relatively mild compared to other bike units; but we also have to take into account that their armor save went down and they lost the assault movement, in addition to the fact that, like most other bikes,they lost jink, they lost relentless...Not to mention that S6 shooting in general is much less effective now.
...I don't really have a problem with any of the current bike unit rules, including windriders.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/13 06:39:41
"Don't need any pesky Wraithlords"? Why would you ever leave them at home?
Because they are 66% as effective as a Dreadnought and have the same price.
66% More effective? How do you work that one out? Let's consider a Marine Dreadnought with Twin-Lascannon, DCCW and storm bolter against a Wraithlord with 2 Braightlances and a Glaive.
Both get 2 anti-tank shots at long range hitting on a 3+ so roughly even.
Wraithlord get 3 S9 attacks in close combat while the Dread gets 4 at S12. Advantage Dread
Both get 4 anti-infantry shots at 12" range but the Dread gets 2 at 12-24". Advantage Dread
Wraithlord has movement 8 and the Dread has movement 6. Advantage Wraithlord.
Wraithlord has 10 wounds and the Dread has 8. Advantage Wraithlord
OK, so far they are looking pretty balanced. The dread hits a bit harder while the Wraithlord is a bit faster and more durable which sounds about fair. Based on this, I would expect them to have similar points values. The Dreanought costs 162 points while the Wraithlord costs 153 so it doesn't look particularly unfair to me.
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
the problem with craftworld eldar is the troop department which we now have to take 3 choices of.
guardians and rangers are soso and dire avengers are unusable.
Guardians need to get close to be effective whilst this is an army that likes to stay at range. also, their weapons are found on almost every platform, and for many of those platforms are some.of the best choices (e.g., serpent+shuricannon)
also it feels really unfluffy to spam guardians.
Rangers are decent but... not as hard to to remove as before, need conceal support. But they're useful for sure.
I think we have 2 choice with craftworld eldar until they fix avenger.
1. Take rangers as troops.
2. Don't play the bad hand, take the other foc and skip troops entirely. this means less re-rolls / strategems.
I see Eldar as an Armored army this edition with the current book. I imagine I'll be running mass Guardians with ton of Wave Serpents defended by War Walkers in the back.
The OP has it right: Craftworld Eldar are worse than Ynnari.
The only benefit the Craftworlds get over the Ynnari is the Battle Focus rule, which is essentially meaningless since almost every weapon in the Eldar armory is either an Assault or a Heavy weaopn so the only thing it does is allow you to Advance and shoot Assault weapons without a penalty. That's not nothing, but it's especially great.
The Craftworlds also get access to the Avatar, who is a cool guy, but unless you're set on using him you might as well play Ynnari who otherwise have access to every other unit available to the Craftworlds, and they get access to Harlequins and Dark Eldar as well, and you swap out Battle Focus for the generally more useful Ynnari special rules.
It's not that the Craftworlds are bad, it's that the Ynnari are identical to the Craftworlds but with all of these additional benefits and no drawbacks. So why not play Ynnari?
Madness is however an affliction which in war carries with it the advantage of surprise - Winston Churchill
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
