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I'm a little miffed that CW Eldar are so bad in 8th. Not that the units are bad, I like the Eldar units, no complaints at all. What bothers me is that there is really no reason to not play Ynnari, so pretty much everyone will be playing Ynnari.
For me, when the Fracture of Biel Tan came out, I figured I had found the perfect match for my mishmash of Eldar units. I had a wraith host themed force with Yriel, a harlequin masque and the start of a wych cult. It was the perfect blend with the pages of fluff from the book.. I didn't care about units, it was all about the fluff.
Now, my army will be just another in a sea of Ynnari reborn....oh well.

Can you expound on your complaint a little? How are Craftworld Eldar bad? Wraith units are still quite strong. Is it because they are no longer hilariously (or not for those of use that actually like playing the game) broken?

Just depends on if you're playing competitively or casually. If you're playing competitively, as with any game that changes with new units and new rules, you'll always have to change armies/units even if you don't like the way they play just to win. If you're playing casually, keep on playing the army you love!

Noctem wrote:
Just depends on if you're playing competitively or casually. If you're playing competitively, as with any game that changes with new units and new rules, you'll always have to change armies/units even if you don't like the way they play just to win. If you're playing casually, keep on playing the army you love!

This.
Exalted.

I dont see Craftworld as all that bad so I will continue to play them. I also play a fair number of Guardians. I can also run my Avatar.

Play what you like and figure out how to get good with them.

Ynnari got toned down significantly compared to their previous incarnation. Every unit only gets one Soulburst action now (up to two with psychic buffs).

Battle Focus for Craftworlds is far from bad. Being able to shoot any weapon that isn't Heavy after advancing with no -1 penalty on models with 7" base movement is nothing to sneeze at.

EDIT: There may now also be a limit on how many units can Soulburst in one turn; my memory of that rule is getting mixed up between the two editions.

The trouble with the Craftworlds this edition is that none of the winners of 8th live in Troops. Wraithguard, Wraithlords, Warlocks, Autarchs, the aircraft, Falcons, and Wave Serpents all look great, but Dire Avengers are 17pts/model for no adequately explained reason, Rangers are a semi-helpful utility unit that you're going to need, like, two of (if the game is big enough), and Guardians are still this bizzare mix of expensive/high-quality and designed to play like Orks (rush forward in a mass and kill things at close range).

I don't know. Maybe I got my hopes up seeing what happened to the DE and got disappointed. I don't know if the Craftworlders are bad, they just seem dull and uninteresting. Skorne-esque post-update blues, everyone else is playing with their new fancy toys and we're sitting here with a long, long list of nerfs.

(My Eldar are waiting with baited breath on the Corsair update, hoping I can have interesting jetbikes and winged dudes in the same place without needing to appropriate random DE/Craftworld units that can't share buffs to make a list out of all these mix-and-match jetbikes and fancy folks with wings.)

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm a little miffed that CW Eldar are so bad in 8th. Not that the units are bad, I like the Eldar units, no complaints at all. What bothers me is that there is really no reason to not play Ynnari, so pretty much everyone will be playing Ynnari.
For me, when the Fracture of Biel Tan came out, I figured I had found the perfect match for my mishmash of Eldar units. I had a wraith host themed force with Yriel, a harlequin masque and the start of a wych cult. It was the perfect blend with the pages of fluff from the book.. I didn't care about units, it was all about the fluff.
Now, my army will be just another in a sea of Ynnari reborn....oh well.

So you aren't really making a reasonable complaing about how Craftworld Eldar have been replaced by the better Ynnari version... but you are whinning like a "hipster" because now everyone is gonna play the army you played from the past... like, 3-4 months?

Play what you like, and don't mind if others play it too.

That is true of most every army short of the Horde Armies. Space Marine Tactical Squads shot up in price due to their Rhinos and Razorbacks​ going up in price. Unless you want a ton of Command Points, it is almost always better to go with a detachment like the Vanguard Detachment or Outrider and skip or take fewer Troops. I know I am reevaluating my Troops for my Space Marines.

I mean, you can run all wraith lists now even easier, take the Vanguard Detachment, and then you dont need any pesky Wraithlords :p

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
That is true of most every army short of the Horde Armies. Space Marine Tactical Squads shot up in price due to their Rhinos and Razorbacks​ going up in price. Unless you want a ton of Command Points, it is almost always better to go with a detachment like the Vanguard Detachment or Outrider and skip or take fewer Troops. I know I am reevaluating my Troops for my Space Marines.

Harlequins, DE, Sisters, Tau, and Space Wolves still have solid/effective Troops. I definitely agree that Craftworld Eldar and Marines/BA/DA do need to be rethinking whether the two Command Points are worth using the Troops, but I don't think most armies are in this pickle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
I mean, you can run all wraith lists now even easier, take the Vanguard Detachment, and then you dont need any pesky Wraithlords :p

"Don't need any pesky Wraithlords"? Why would you ever leave them at home? Wraithlords are pretty cool now, what with the price drops and no need to spend all game hiding from random Instant Death bullcrap, and no Invul is way less of an instant death sentence than it used to be. Think of them as War Walkers that are paying a 50pt(/2PL) premium to be much tougher (+1T/+4W/-1Sv) and have a sword to whack people with once you get stuck in.

(I mean, forget "take a Vanguard detachment and skip the Wraithlords", go for "take a Spearhead detachment and take six.")

Well, I play Eldar since the 3rd edition. Recently I shelved them when the 7th ed came out. Now it seems that I can unshelve them. I prefer Serpents, Warwalkers, Seer Council (on foot or on bikes), Guardians, Avengers, and Fire Dragons, maybe Wraithguard. My experience is that Eldar is strong even if (common opinion says that) the codex is not over the top. Dont worry. Eldar needs skill. It is one of the most versatile armies in the game. It can easily battle the enemy at all threat ranges and is fast enough to outmaneuver the enemy if necessary.

My message is: Eldar is still strong if you play their strength. Death to all Mon-keigh.

Have to say I can't see why people wouldn't play Ynnari.
Being able to advance and shoot non-heavy weapons makes regular Eldar a little faster but I can't see it comparing with immediate extra rounds of shooting or combat or whatever else you want to do.

I'd have thought if you want troops just go with some min sized units of Storm Guardians. 56 points isn't a huge tax compared with a lot of things in this edition.

Depending on how the meta breaks out rangers are going to be very useful for picking off characters.

Depending on how the meta breaks out rangers are going to be very useful for picking off characters.

Indeed, Rangers are a must-have in this edition as they can target characters directly. This can be huge if the character has some buffs for the surrounding units (hello Necrons).

The real problem with CWE is that they're an abandoned line, same as Mini Marines, but nobody has realized it yet.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

"Don't need any pesky Wraithlords"? Why would you ever leave them at home?

Because they are 66% as effective as a Dreadnought and have the same price.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The real problem with CWE is that they're an abandoned line, same as Mini Marines, but nobody has realized it yet.

Huh? Do you honestly think GW isn't going to make new CWE kits?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The real problem with CWE is that they're an abandoned line, same as Mini Marines, but nobody has realized it yet.

Huh? Do you honestly think GW isn't going to make new CWE kits?

What do you think is the point of a new Eldar faction that can cannibalize kits from both old factions? Yes, yes I do. You will never in your life see another kit that is recognizably old Marine, CWE, Dark Eldar, High Elf, Dark Elf, Dwarf, etc.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The real problem with CWE is that they're an abandoned line, same as Mini Marines, but nobody has realized it yet.

I suspect some significant changes when the Aeldari Codex is released. There are a lot of dated models in the Eldar range. I could see a bit more blending of the 3 factions over the next few years. The Visarch seemed like a test model for a blended Eldar/Dark Eldar model. I envision a Wraith themed Eldar army remaining a bit akin to Sylvaneth being the successor to Wood Elves.

Time will tell.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The real problem with CWE is that they're an abandoned line, same as Mini Marines, but nobody has realized it yet.

Huh? Do you honestly think GW isn't going to make new CWE kits?

What do you think is the point of a new Eldar faction that can cannibalize kits from both old factions? Yes, yes I do. You will never in your life see another kit that is recognizably old Marine, CWE, Dark Eldar, High Elf, Dark Elf, Dwarf, etc.

Its an attempt to get CWE players to buy DE and Harlequin models (and vice versa, although CWE players probably outnumber the second two 5-10 to 1).

The thing about "recognisably CWE" is that its far less clear cut than mini marines vs nu marines.

Say they released a new version of Jain Zar and Banshees (plus some other things). Maybe they would be modelled with Ynnari aesethics (whatever that is) and would therefore somehow completely clash with regular CWE. I am not sure they would though.
As long as they are thin, agile and recognisably eldar I am struggling to see how they won't fit.

I can imagine a covens anti-ynnari release with a new Urien, one two other basic characters, Mandrakes, Grotesques and a new pain engine. Would this be recognisably DE? Pretty sure it would be.

The loss of the Aspects has been my biggest worry for some time now, especially (as lord blackfang and sarigar allude to) since the Ynnari dropped. The interview with Jes when the Triumvirate launched in which I'm sure I heard him say how he always liked to try new things and new directions, and in context it did sound rather like a giveaway that something new was coming.

I've not really rewatched it since, so it could be me remembering through a mist of paranoia, but it's concerning to me.

Strange too, as if anything the Craftworld look is not one that seems to have many "me-too" competitors. Granted, the sheer number of "space knight" (ahem) players means that there's an easy market for such thingsone s, but even other ranges have their easy-to-substitute ranges: generic high-tech SF troopers don't look *too* bad with Tau, Guard are SF humans, Nids are bugs, space orcs (c used deliberately) have been A Thing going back years (possibly because if you do fantasy orcs, it's just as easy to add a gun or two), but highly-stylised, vaguely Classical-Grecian warriors? Not so much. Not to say that there aren't any out there, but nowhere near some ranges, so the concerns of a post-Chapterhouse GW shouldn't be in this area as much as others.

However; I do think that some of what is going on in 8th, and indeed with Age of Sigmar in general, is a generational art shift. New artists and designers are on board and they've grown up with their own sets of influences and inspirations, and the 'old guard' may well be getting bored with churning out Yet Another High Elf Spearman #63, so perhaps it's to be expected.

Still, as the Craftworlds have some of the most personally striking imagery of 40k, I do hope that I'm just being pessimistic here.

Edit:

Say they released a new version of Jain Zar and Banshees (plus some other things). Maybe they would be modelled with Ynnari aesethics (whatever that is) and would therefore somehow completely clash with regular CWE. I am not sure they would though.

It's a good point there Tyel, but it can be little things that shout the loudest. For instance, Prodos (I think?) do some Not Warp Spiders, not cheap IIRC but cheapER than GW. I'd never buy them, though, as there's ... something that's 'off' about them. I can't quite put my finger on it; whether it's the cowling, or the helmet, or the stance (I can definitely say that the gun looks badly out of scale, though). But it's something that gives me that 'do not want'. (And it's not that they're not GW models, as there are some utterly GORGEOUS but sadly expensive Russian ones that I just can't quite justify to myself - yet!)

The thing about ynari soul burst is to activate it you have to lose a unit and it only effects infanty within 7" this time round, Also eldar units are not that cheap or numorusl that they can afford to just throw them away to get a short ranged buff I can see doing it if its absolutely essenicial but other wise your weakening your self for short term gains and that could cost the game.

While I think the thread title is comically obtuse (but it's really just click bait) I do think that the Craftworld Eldar line is going to fade like normal scale marines.

However, not being a powerful army? Nonsense. They look fine.

Skullhammer wrote:
The thing about ynari soul burst is to activate it you have to lose a unit and it only effects infanty within 7" this time round, Also eldar units are not that cheap or numorusl that they can afford to just throw them away to get a short ranged buff I can see doing it if its absolutely essenicial but other wise your weakening your self for short term gains and that could cost the game.

Non of the Eldar citizens (Guardians - philosophers or poets) and warriors are expendable.

I don't think the entire faction is dead, just Aspect Warriors who are pretty much all rubbish other than Fire Dragons. My Biel Tan Eldar will be hitting the shelf for the foreseeable future, I think this is their worst time since early 6th edition.

Scatbikes and Wraithknights received some significant nerfs and are both overcosted, but they're at least workable - the Wraithknight still hits hard and the Scatbikes can be used as the better ShuriCanbikes.

Farseers, Guardians, Wave Serpents, Wraithguard/Blades and the Fliers are all great. I don't see why you'd run them as Crawftworld Eldar over Ynarri though.

For me, the answer would have been to make Aspect Warriors Craftworld-only and only let the Ynnari take non-aspect units from the Craftworld range, just as they can't take Covens units.

That would make the Ynnari less broken while also letting the Craftworlds stay relevant by being the sole means of accessing their most iconic range. It would also be easy to justify fluff-wise by saying the warriors of Khaine are unwilling to follow another God.

maybe I wasn't clear in my OP. What I intended to say is that CW: Eldar is really not a choice over Ynnari (especially when you can take every unit from CW:Eldar minus the Avatar in Ynnari). Battle Focus is mostly terrible with Eldar weapons. Sure, you don't get the -1 for Assault weapons after advancing, but there are not a lot of rapid fire weapons in the Eldar arsenal that could benefit from this, and Heavy Weapons don't apply. Strength from Death is so much better in most scenarios.

The Eldar units are fine IMHO, and the army still competitive, just the choice to do CWE is not great. I'd prefer a player to have to have a hard choice between the two so all armies are balanced.

Eldar armies are still great options.....Battalion for Guardian themed armies (can't wait til we get our webway portal black guardians back), Vanguard for wraith hosts and aspect armies, Outrider for jetbike hosts. I woudl just take all of them as Ynnari over CWE.

If I had a bike army.....maybe I'd stick with CWE if they were all shuricannon bikes. They would be super fast. I have no bikes, however as Saim Hann did not really interest me.

I wonder how many of those who complain about the current state of CWE are players who started (bandwagoned if you will) playing CWE during 6th or 7th, and now realized that their army isn't an overpowered point&click-army anymore.

As a Eldar-player since 3d Ed. I'm looking forward grab my Eldar from the shelf they've been on since mid 6th. Perhaps now they'll be fun again.

I don't get the "Why get CWE when you can get Ynnari"-argument. Isn't that like saying "Why play Space Marines when you can play Grey Knights" or "Why play Salamanders when you can play Ultra Marines"? Probably because people *want* to play CWE and not Ynnari? I have 0 interest in Ynnari myself. Not everyone who plays 40k aims to roflstomp your opponent into the dirt you know, far from it.

Not really sure Shuriken Cannon wind riders are overcosted.

As it stands for 32 points you get a two wounds T4, 4+ armour save unit with a 3 shot 24" S6 gun with -3 rend on a wound roll of 6.

Unlike the Scatbikes of yore this isn't dramatically better than alternatives in a mathhammer line them up and keep rolling til one side is dead scenario. They just about get their points back in 5 turns of shooting basic Tactical Marines - which is pretty standard.

A big thing though is that guaranteed advance of 6" plus 16" movement. That is an effective threat range of 46". You can also fly over any unit or terrain. Any character who isn't completely bubble wrapped to the point where you can't place the bikes is vulnerable. You can easily move firepower across the table to where you need it. You can move onto objectives.

Tyel wrote:
Not really sure Shuriken Cannon wind riders are overcosted.

As it stands for 32 points you get a two wounds T4, 4+ armour save unit with a 3 shot 24" S6 gun with -3 rend on a wound roll of 6.

Unlike the Scatbikes of yore this isn't dramatically better than alternatives in a mathhammer line them up and keep rolling til one side is dead scenario. They just about get their points back in 5 turns of shooting basic Tactical Marines - which is pretty standard.

A big thing though is that guaranteed advance of 6" plus 16" movement. That is an effective threat range of 46". You can also fly over any unit or terrain. Any character who isn't completely bubble wrapped to the point where you can't place the bikes is vulnerable. You can easily move firepower across the table to where you need it. You can move onto objectives.

I think the main problem is that 16 points per wound for a multi-wound unit is really expensive. Most infantry and bikes with multiple wounds are over-costed IMO, sometimes significantly. By comparison, vehicles can pay as little as 10 points per T6 or T7 3+ wound. For example, for 100 points you can get a Razorback with a twin assault cannon. That's 10 points per T7 3+ wound, which is obviously far more survivable in the face of 1 or 2 damage weapons than the Jetbikes, along with 12 S6 Ap-1 shots at 24" (albeit from a Heavy gun). It's not quite as fast as the Jetbikes but it does move 12". Meanwhile 3 Jetbikes will run you 96 points for only 6 wounds instead of 10, T4 instead of T7, a 4+ save instead of a 3+ save, and only 9 shots with what's probably overall-worse AP. Also the Razorback is a transport.

Multi-wound infantry and bikes are costed appropriately assuming that they only ever get shot with 1-damage weapons. They are not costed appropriately for a game with multi-damage weapons. A Lascannon -- a weapon designed for killing things with many more than 2 wounds -- expects to kill 24.4 points of Windrider per hit, assuming it's shooting at an uninjured unit. It expects to kill only 23.3 points of Razorback, despite the Razorback having more than 6 wounds, higher toughness, a better save, and more firepower. This is kind of crazy. Melta guns aside this should be the worst-case scenario for the Razorback. If instead we're firing guns intended for killing light vehicles, such as, say, overcharged plasma, we expect to kill 26.7 points of Windrider per hit and only 11.1 points of Razorback. Edit: My bad, I forgot that Razorbacks still get a save against a Lascannon; you only kill 19.4 points of Razorback per Lascannon hit.

So Windriders are very bad. But this is not unique to them. Space Marine Centurions are among the worst units in the game (I probably still have to give the gold to Dire Avengers tho). The new Primaris Marines look pretty worthless too.