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But there have got to be Primaris Traitor chapters. I mean, we can't just not have those, can we?

Plenty of marine chapters have turned to chaos since the Heresy. The Red Corsairs have even been recruiting from active loyal marine chapters.

Primaris marines cannot be immune to the influence of Chaos. That would just be sad.

Primaris Marines are so new the question is proably academic at the timne. they're only been in service for a century

 General Kroll wrote:
Yeah, the missing Legions should remain a mystery just out of reach. I do like seeing teasy little mentions and clues here and there, but that's all it should ever be.

Agreed. The fate of the two missing legions, like GW' s product pricing, is best left as an enigma to be debated about online for eternity.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

True, although both Legions were expunged while the Emperor was still up and kicking. It just seems odd to me that they'd be so thorough in expunging their record that even the Primarchs aren't allowed to speak of them...and then stop short of getting rid of their geneseed. Unless you give the Emperor some extra human-like flaws and say that deep down, after all the ire and rage, he harboured a glimmer of hope that at some point his creations might be resurrected and redeemed. That would work, and I'm all for giving the Emperor human flaws (given that I don't believe all of this composite of souls since before Christ was born dogma).

That is a possibility I guess, but is the Emperor one to keep his failed experiments around?

I quite like the idea that, at the end of the day (10,000 years ago), the Emperor was, above all else, human. It gives the rolling dumpster fire that is the imperial cult a more tragic tone. Especially now that a Primarch is actually alive and kicking.

I feel like the unknown legions were wiped from history because what ever tragedy befell them happened not only at the height of the Imperium, when the Emperor could (and did) censor things as he saw fit, but also because it would have been small scale in comparison to the Horus heresy which split the Imperium in half and nearly destroyed it all. Something that big would have been impossible to cover up.

Besides that, it seems like only one of the two mossong legions was truly “bad”, amd the otherone might have just been unlucky.

Hopefully a little more will he revealed with the next forgeworld books, as Im looking forward to see if there are any hints dropped about them in regards to the Rangdan Xenocides.

Also for what it's worth Im happy GW built infrom tjebstart Primaris from all the legions. I love my home brew loyalist Luna Wolves for example, and Im sure other people love thier own moyalist chapters from what ever of the 20 legions they descend from.

what we know of the lost Legions is pretty vague but we KNOW the legions where described as "failed" not "purged" not "erased" but FAILED. we also know Sanguinis was afraid of the Blood Angels flaw getting out for fear of a similer fate. we know several legions where nearly dead by time their primarchs came about due to crippling flaws that managed to be corrected... perhaps these legions didn't make it and actually died in the crusade.

BrianDavion wrote:
what we know of the lost Legions is pretty vague but we KNOW the legions where described as "failed" not "purged" not "erased" but FAILED. we also know Sanguinis was afraid of the Blood Angels flaw getting out for fear of a similer fate. we know several legions where nearly dead by time their primarchs came about due to crippling flaws that managed to be corrected... perhaps these legions didn't make it and actually died in the crusade.

That's what I found interesting. It's a new term that's being used to describe them with interesting implications.

The question is, is the view of them as 'failed' just Guilliman's outlook, or does it imply something more about what happened to them? Could well be either or both.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what we know of the lost Legions is pretty vague but we KNOW the legions where described as "failed" not "purged" not "erased" but FAILED. we also know Sanguinis was afraid of the Blood Angels flaw getting out for fear of a similer fate. we know several legions where nearly dead by time their primarchs came about due to crippling flaws that managed to be corrected... perhaps these legions didn't make it and actually died in the crusade.

That's what I found interesting. It's a new term that's being used to describe them with interesting implications.

The question is, is the view of them as 'failed' just Guilliman's outlook, or does it imply something more about what happened to them? Could well be either or both.

looking at every piece of data I've been able to find, I really do think they and their legions suffered from extreme geneseed flaws that resulted in their being culled.

I agree with those who say it is best to leave the fate of the two missing legions to imagination, rather than GW committing it to paper. Whatever you have come up with in your imagination is likely far better than anything will ever be put on paper. Thus, I can see most people being disappointed regardless of what comes out.

Remember how disappointed people were when ADB's Master of Mankind came out, depicting the Emperor as far less than a 'father', who just treated his Primarch sons as tools to be used? This is now 'canon' as far as it goes, as Guy Haley offers similar reflections as Guilliman thinks back to his meeting with the Emperor on the Golden Throne in the Dark Imperium novel. This is what you can expect if any writing occurs on the lost legions. It changed our view of the Emperor, and likely not in a good way, for many readers.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
If the Traitor Legions did all that and weren't expunged from the records, just what on earth did the forgotten legions do?

They used one thick coat.

 totalfailure wrote:
Remember how disappointed people were when ADB's Master of Mankind came out, depicting the Emperor as far less than a 'father', who just treated his Primarch sons as tools to be used? This is now 'canon' as far as it goes, as Guy Haley offers similar reflections as Guilliman thinks back to his meeting with the Emperor on the Golden Throne in the Dark Imperium novel. This is what you can expect if any writing occurs on the lost legions. It changed our view of the Emperor, and likely not in a good way, for many readers.

Ironically, given the way the HH novels had gone up to that point, it was really the only depiction of the Emperor that could make sense. If he had regarded them as sons then a little bit of time spent teaching them (particularly Lorgar and Magnus) would have saved whole heaps of woe. Instead the he regards them as tools, some of which unreliable or borderline broken. This makes the Emperor a lot less of a sympathetic character than older depictions but answers questions as to why he treated some of the Primarchs the way he did.

I liked it as made the Emperor way less Space Jesus, and made the setting more rich for me. That the Emperor wasn't a good father is fine by me- that any particular individual doesnt matter is also fine by me. I mean look at what the Emperor is- hes the psychic gestalt of who knows how many late Neolithic/chalcolithic shamans who collectively decided thier own lives didn't matter in the face of chaos. Of course he dpesnt care about individuals beyond how they can help forward tje greatplan to shepard our race as a whole into a place unequalled.

Yeah, I kinda prefer Machiavellian Emperor.

It also fits the grimdark of 40k much better.

Officially is a pretty vague term in the IoM.

Officially the Thunderwolf Cavalry and Wulfen don't exist.
Officially the Red Thirst and Black Rage don't exit.
Officially the Grey Knights don't exist.
Officially the Chaos forces don't exist
Officially the IoM doesn't employ assassins.
Officially the Dark Angels are all loyal.

What did Guiliman do when he found out about the "Failed Chapters"? He did the first interesting thing he's ever done and in the most time honoured tradition of the Imperium he covered it up.

I agree with those who say it is best to leave the fate of the two missing legions to imagination, rather than GW committing it to paper. Whatever you have come up with in your imagination is likely far better than anything will ever be put on paper. Thus, I can see most people being disappointed regardless of what comes out.

I agree and disagree at the same time haha. That is to say I think you and everyone else are right, it'll be hard to live up to the expectations of everyone. However I have far too many science (biology and chemistry mostly) classes under my belt so I tend to think factually, rather I want the truth to the actual events and characters to an event, otherwise I have this nagging sensation that whatever conclusion I come up with is probably incorrect (there is no proof for what I think basically). Now it's just a game/fiction, so it's not the end of the world but I personally love this setting and I'd love to have a canon explanation (a lot like the false primarch story) because I'm far too much like the Thousands Son- I really, really, REALLY want to know, even if it destroys me .

Realistically, what I want the group in charge of fluff to do is sit down and decide on a definitive date and source of it's destruction, if nothing more than that (they may have already done this, who knows?). For example "Legion II was destroyed on date X due to cause A, and Legion XI was destroyed on date Y due to cause B". They don't have to release anything drastic or even state it explicitly, but I'd love it if they sprinkled hints throughout every horus heresy book so by the last book one could in theory make a definitive statement on whether corruption of the geneseed finished legion II in the 103rd year of the crusade or some other cause. We have ideas on the causes but so far it hasn't differentiated between the two lost legions other than vague statements that could mean several things. I just hope the writers approach the subject with the same general facts, but it's 40k, things have always been a bit disjointed in how things get portrayed because of the different authors' views on the different subjects.


Now to the main question of the thread, I don't see why they couldn't use the two lost legions gene-seeds. We know the problems were bred out so functionally it is the same as the other gene-seeds, so finding a primaris chapter that has II or XI gene-seeds really doesn't mean anything, there are a few traitor legion gene-seeds (so heavily implied it might as well be confirmed with how 40k works) in the different space marine chapters. While they may display hints of their original gene-seeds it's usually not that obvious, and that was with normal space marine gene-seed. Now purify it to primaris gene-seed and I don't think the primaris marines would display any of the traits the original II and XI legions would have had. If that is what you are looking for I would look at cursed founding chapters, we know they tampered with gene seeds and in retrospect it could have been a sort of field test of the "proto Primaris" gene-seed. Considering Cawl perfected every gene-seed we can expect him to have tested the II and XI gene-seeds at some point to see what the problems were. It's possible then that II or XI gene-seed was used in the cursed founding to see how it handled out in the field. It's a lot of ifs but it would make sense from a science perspective, 5 millennia later a field test had to have occurred at some point and the cursed founding really seems like it would fit the bill. Therefore if one wanted to find the flaw in those legions one may be able to create a list of the cursed chapters and just see what flaws are present, as even the poor lamenters did not shake it's genetic flaw in the end. So if anything I would look at cursed founding chapters if you interested in what flaw the II and XI had as again I don't expect the primaris to have it if what Cawl claims is true, you wouldn't know until you actually tested them! Therefore primaris marines with the II and XI gene-seeds really would just act like any other primaris in terms of disposition and tactics.

R0bcrt, perhaps you could think of the II and XI legions story as a quantum wave form that is yet to collapse?

R0bcrt wrote:

I agree with those who say it is best to leave the fate of the two missing legions to imagination, rather than GW committing it to paper. Whatever you have come up with in your imagination is likely far better than anything will ever be put on paper. Thus, I can see most people being disappointed regardless of what comes out.

I agree and disagree at the same time haha. That is to say I think you and everyone else are right, it'll be hard to live up to the expectations of everyone. However I have far too many science (biology and chemistry mostly) classes under my belt so I tend to think factually, rather I want the truth to the actual events and characters to an event, otherwise I have this nagging sensation that whatever conclusion I come up with is probably incorrect (there is no proof for what I think basically). Now it's just a game/fiction, so it's not the end of the world but I personally love this setting and I'd love to have a canon explanation (a lot like the false primarch story) because I'm far too much like the Thousands Son- I really, really, REALLY want to know, even if it destroys me .

Realistically, what I want the group in charge of fluff to do is sit down and decide on a definitive date and source of it's destruction, if nothing more than that (they may have already done this, who knows?). For example "Legion II was destroyed on date X due to cause A, and Legion XI was destroyed on date Y due to cause B". They don't have to release anything drastic or even state it explicitly, but I'd love it if they sprinkled hints throughout every horus heresy book so by the last book one could in theory make a definitive statement on whether corruption of the geneseed finished legion II in the 103rd year of the crusade or some other cause. We have ideas on the causes but so far it hasn't differentiated between the two lost legions other than vague statements that could mean several things. I just hope the writers approach the subject with the same general facts, but it's 40k, things have always been a bit disjointed in how things get portrayed because of the different authors' views on the different subjects.


Now to the main question of the thread, I don't see why they couldn't use the two lost legions gene-seeds. We know the problems were bred out so functionally it is the same as the other gene-seeds, so finding a primaris chapter that has II or XI gene-seeds really doesn't mean anything, there are a few traitor legion gene-seeds (so heavily implied it might as well be confirmed with how 40k works) in the different space marine chapters. While they may display hints of their original gene-seeds it's usually not that obvious, and that was with normal space marine gene-seed. Now purify it to primaris gene-seed and I don't think the primaris marines would display any of the traits the original II and XI legions would have had. If that is what you are looking for I would look at cursed founding chapters, we know they tampered with gene seeds and in retrospect it could have been a sort of field test of the "proto Primaris" gene-seed. Considering Cawl perfected every gene-seed we can expect him to have tested the II and XI gene-seeds at some point to see what the problems were. It's possible then that II or XI gene-seed was used in the cursed founding to see how it handled out in the field. It's a lot of ifs but it would make sense from a science perspective, 5 millennia later a field test had to have occurred at some point and the cursed founding really seems like it would fit the bill. Therefore if one wanted to find the flaw in those legions one may be able to create a list of the cursed chapters and just see what flaws are present, as even the poor lamenters did not shake it's genetic flaw in the end. So if anything I would look at cursed founding chapters if you interested in what flaw the II and XI had as again I don't expect the primaris to have it if what Cawl claims is true, you wouldn't know until you actually tested them! Therefore primaris marines with the II and XI gene-seeds really would just act like any other primaris in terms of disposition and tactics.

Mystery is pretty much the only good storytelling tool that GW has.

Agreed. I've spoken at length on many occasions about how revealing too much about any fictional universe, not just 40k, makes it seem small, mundane and uninteresting. There is an instant gratification to finding out some revelation about something that has long been mysterious, but that's quickly followed by a sort of empty feeling when the mystery is gone and all is laid bare. It just feels...mundane.

It's the Lingerie Principle. It's much more exciting to tease than to show.

Saying that, I do love it when hints are actually teased. Things like Guilliman calling them 'failed', rather than 'lost' or 'purged'. Tiny little hints about what might have happened, without any sort of solid backing to them.

Rough time of their demise I'd be happy with as a reveal, but only if they didn't outright say it. More hinted at it by having one Primarch ask another what one of the lost primarchs was like, implying that they had never met. Now, this could mean they were purged before, or just that they never met. I'd also be happy with a little reveal suggesting (only suggesting), that one of them might have met their demise due to geneseed flaws. Still leaves things wiiide open for interpretation, and also suggests that the other wasn't which is interesting in of itself.

The thing is, we already have hints of those two. It's suggested that Corax never met the missing Primarchs, so they were probably wiped out before Corax was found. We also know that part of the reason Sanguinius is scared to tell anyone about the Thirst is for fear of being purged like one (or both?) of the missing legions.

So, what else could be revealed that would make things more interesting for creative interpretation, rather than restricting it?

I would love for them to come up with a basic idea of what happened to those legions then continue to dance around it in the fluff and never, ever, actually give us anything concrete.

I do agree, I don't really want them to explicitly state the answer as like you said, just handing the answer isn't that great in the long run, and I grudgingly admit mystery is the best tool they have right now haha, so it's probably for the best to keep those legions a mystery, I just hope GW has a plan they are sticking to and aren't just throwing out random information for the heck of it. The lingerie principle makes sense, but each person has a different amount of skin they want see for it to be exciting .

However in terms of extra information that still keeps the mystery, I would love to have hints on how the legions were dealt with, rather was the catalyst for their destruction a puttering out like how the Emperor's Children were before meeting Fulgrim (or Magnus and the TS) and they were peacefully removed/integrated elsewhere, or did they do something really bad to warrant military action (as some comments from Russ imply but it could be about Angron). But both of those conflict with the rumors that Argel-Tal discussed with other Word Bearers about the sudden and large influx of Ultramarines, but it is just rumor after all. Also if it was a flaw then why target those legions? If anything the Emperor tolerated the Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children flaw, and even more so the Thousand Sons flaw as the emperor would have seen the chaos related taint the instance he saw and read about the issue. I bring up those two as he would have to know about or suspect them as these issues happened before their primarch's return and more importantly brought their numbers to near extinction levels, and this was when he was out and crusading so he would be in a prime place to see these flaws in the field.

If it was behavior then why single out those legions? We have Curze and Angron still kicking around, and we know Angron would have happily murdered Russ in the open battle they had and betray the emperor at the drop of a hat, and Curze, well, is Curze. Both of those legions have very bad records and even when the Night Lords went renegade the Imperium did not know how to respond; I mean they sent the Night Lords to Istvaan V after all! If they had dealt with a rebel/rogue legion before then why would the Imperium vacillate so much, I always thought it weird they acted that way with the Night Lords. Especially when you factor in your favorite primarch turned evil, so why send the guy you already are pretty sure just turned renegade?

When did the remembrancers happen? I assume it was after the two legions were wiped off the record as other wise I don't see how they could censure the legion from everyone's memory that way.

Is it sad the first thing I'd do if I was alive during the great crusade would be to go to as many planets as possible that were conquered early in the crusade and start asking about giant soldiers in the hope some old random citizen remembers some giant with the marks II or XI on their shoulder, and then ask what color and symbols they used?

Oh and Nareik thinking of them as a quantum wave form makes sense surprsingly, at least in terms of location versus momentum and mystery/coolness versus knowing facts if that is how you mean it!

Yeah it's this sort of theorising that makes me really want to keep it mysterious. If we knew too much (like the godawful Newcrons) then there's suddenly less to think about.

Personally, I think the Word Bearers above are just bitter rumour-mongers. That'd be my default position anyway, but it's also been confirmed by the author because he was fed up of people espousing it as if it was gospel.

You're right about other Primarchs and Legions getting away with a hell of a lot without reprimand, which suggests either that the lost Legions did something really, really bad...or that the Emperor felt remorse for what he did to them. Also, the fact that the Emperor was reluctant to believe that his Primarchs had betrayed him suggests that the lost Legions didn't betray the Imperium.

That leads a little into my pet theory for one of them.

The Primarchs by and large either represented aspects of the Emperor, or perhaps just qualities that he thought would be useful in his Crusade. One notable omission is a scientist/biomancer. What if one of the lost Primarchs started experimenting on his Astartes to make them stronger, faster, smarter. What if in his quest for the ultimate soldier, he turned to xenos DNA to improve his warriors? What if the next time the Emperor met him, his Legion was completely unrecognisable as human?

So, he sends the Wolves for them. How could he let the lines between xenos and the holy human form blur so flagrantly? It is an insult direct to his xenophobic core. The Wolves know what it is they are fighting, but the rest of the universe sees yet another triumph of humanity of the foul xenos, despite the fact that these astartes-chimerics are 100% loyal to the Imperium and mankind.

The remaining neophytes not yet irreparably modified are mind-wiped and disseminated to other legions (providing the kernal of truth from which the Word Bearers' rumour-mongering springs). One of these mind-wiped survivors find himself one of the Emperor's Children...but find himself markedly different from every other legionary in the III. Still ignorant of his origins to this day, regardless he has continued the legacy of his birthright. Perhaps, in fact, Fabius has exceeded the works of his short-lived creator...

I must admit, I'm at least a little bit curious to find out if I'm right...

Funny you speak of searching out the history of the lost legions. I was thinking that probably the only two people alive today who know are Guilliman and Cawl. Guilliman because he was there, and Cawl because I strongly suspect he'd have done the exact sort of archaeology that you suggest.

Firstly, I sincerely doubt that the Ad Mech just has vaults of lost-legion geneseed knocking around. These guys were purged from all Imperial records, to the point that not even the Primarchs were allowed to speak of them. They're not going to keep their geneseed around just for sh*ts and giggles.

So, Cawl would have had to find some. Digging deep into history forgotten even as their corpses cooled, and asking questions that would surely have put his life in extreme danger, he'd have had to have discovered what happened to the lost and the purged. He'd have had to have found their old battlegrounds, hoping to find the hulk of a dreadnaught, sarcophagus barely functioning after the relentless onslaught of time. Perhaps, functioning just enough to preserve an morsel of their genetic code...

Much more evocative than shuffling off to some vault somewhere, looking under the mattress where he hides all his secret stashes, and pulling out some outlawed geneseed...

R0bcrt wrote:
I do agree, I don't really want them to explicitly state the answer as like you said, just handing the answer isn't that great in the long run, and I grudgingly admit mystery is the best tool they have right now haha, so it's probably for the best to keep those legions a mystery, I just hope GW has a plan they are sticking to and aren't just throwing out random information for the heck of it. The lingerie principle makes sense, but each person has a different amount of skin they want see for it to be exciting .

Possibly the best explanation ever.

However in terms of extra information that still keeps the mystery, I would love to have hints on how the legions were dealt with, rather was the catalyst for their destruction a puttering out like how the Emperor's Children were before meeting Fulgrim (or Magnus and the TS) and they were peacefully removed/integrated elsewhere, or did they do something really bad to warrant military action (as some comments from Russ imply but it could be about Angron). But both of those conflict with the rumors that Argel-Tal discussed with other Word Bearers about the sudden and large influx of Ultramarines, but it is just rumor after all. Also if it was a flaw then why target those legions? If anything the Emperor tolerated the Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children flaw, and even more so the Thousand Sons flaw as the emperor would have seen the chaos related taint the instance he saw and read about the issue. I bring up those two as he would have to know about or suspect them as these issues happened before their primarch's return and more importantly brought their numbers to near extinction levels, and this was when he was out and crusading so he would be in a prime place to see these flaws in the field.

The only person who really had knowledge of the Flesh Change that could have Magnus and his boys censored or purged without proof was Russ and his hands were tied due to the Wulfen becoming a thing - my guess is Magnus knew about the Wulfen because Russ' first action was to fly at him with accusations rather than keeping the knowledge to himself. Russ' military abilities were great, diplomacy was not his thing.

If it was behavior then why single out those legions? We have Curze and Angron still kicking around, and we know Angron would have happily murdered Russ in the open battle they had and betray the emperor at the drop of a hat, and Curze, well, is Curze. Both of those legions have very bad records and even when the Night Lords went renegade the Imperium did not know how to respond; I mean they sent the Night Lords to Istvaan V after all! If they had dealt with a rebel/rogue legion before then why would the Imperium vacillate so much, I always thought it weird they acted that way with the Night Lords. Especially when you factor in your favorite primarch turned evil, so why send the guy you already are pretty sure just turned renegade?

Russ believed he had made his point with Angron - awful lot of mistakes on his part - when his Wolves put a Bolter to the head of every World Eater present while the Primarchs duked it out a lost the fight but won the battle scenario. He overestimated his brother's ability to reason things out. Diplomacy really wasn't his thing.

Curze was another mistake at the big E's feet.

When did the remembrancers happen? I assume it was after the two legions were wiped off the record as other wise I don't see how they could censure the legion from everyone's memory that way.

Is it sad the first thing I'd do if I was alive during the great crusade would be to go to as many planets as possible that were conquered early in the crusade and start asking about giant soldiers in the hope some old random citizen remembers some giant with the marks II or XI on their shoulder, and then ask what color and symbols they used?

That's a quick way to get dead. People who ask questions are problematic.
That aside information flow in most of the Imperium is very tight, to the point you'd have to be high in the pecking order to even know how many legions actually existed.

Oh and Nareik thinking of them as a quantum wave form makes sense surprsingly, at least in terms of location versus momentum and mystery/coolness versus knowing facts if that is how you mean it!

Curze, and even more so the Night Lords, were a liability and I reckon it could be written to be a stroke of genius to encourage them to join the Heresy ide!

The HH was sold on the idea that it was right, fair, good.

Having a bunch of renowned and evil baby flayers on your side is really bad for PR. Imagine how many mislead idealists might have turned traitor until they realised 'wait, there is no way I can side with these Nightlord psychos'.

Offloading them as renegades was the right course of action, but burdening them to Horus was even better!

Wow...
Just wow.

In one of the Dark Angels novels, Zahariel has his mind blanked of his saving the Emperor- something a psyker does to him. If a regular psyker can do this to an Astartes, surely the Emperor (who can kill daemons by mere presence alone) can mind wipe any Imperial Army personnel who worked alongside Legios II and XI.

Primarch roles seem to differ, though I'm honestly not sure if Angron was intended to be the raging psycho- the nails do alter one's chemical responses to feel nothing but pain unless he inflicts pain on others. Again with Perturabo- wasn't he a craftsman/architect (see: Building in which the Council of Nikaea takes place, which was why he chafed at being the siege specialist/garrison? You'd be bitter too if your legion had to be babysitters while your siblings and their ilk get the glory.

Given the recent developments in 40k I wouldn't rule out a return for the missing legions. If you could travel back in time two or three years, no one on Dakka would believe you about the Gathering storm events or the introduction of the Primaris and the current state of the 40k galaxy. The Horus Heresy and playable Primarch's used to be the "never going to happen" thing. After that it was Primarch's in 40k proper. Now we are in the process of getting both and Astartes V2 on top of that.

I always liked Magnus's comment about the missing Legions being "The purged and the forgotten". I know that ADB has said that people read too much into what he wrote as a throw-away line but it fits in my head-canon.

The "purged" would fit with the implications that the Wolves had been unleashed to destroy a Legion before. Given the well known issues with both the ECs and 1KSons, it seems hard to believe that genetic instability was the problem. Could it have been treachery? Dorn muses that the fate of one of the lost legions seemed to have been a warning of things to come.

The "forgotten" seems more ambiguous. Perhaps their Primarch was slain ignominiously or perhaps he refused to bow the knee before the Emperor at all. If the Astartes of the Legion were fundamentally sound, maybe it was decided to quietly incorporate them into the tactically successful UMs.

They did that to allow people to create their own legions and explain their origins.

But as people normally works, the two blanket legions for players to create their own become a "untouchable" fluff bit that if you hint for your own space marine chapter or Chaos Legion to be the 2nd or 11th is gonna be called totally unfluffy, anti lore, incoherent. etc...

I agree that they should be left alone. If you take your universe as a linear progresion that needs to be all known your end as Warcraft that has a linear list of "EVILZ" that are killed and you need new EVILZ that are shoehorned in the fluff with a bunch of retcons.

The worst of GW fluff butchery still pales to what has been done to Warcraft fluff. Thank goodness for that.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The worst of GW fluff butchery still pales to what has been done to Warcraft fluff. Thank goodness for that.

I bought Warcraft Chronicles Volumen 1 from USA a month before is release in spain. They have already retconed it with World of Warcraft: Legion Patch 7.3 finale. It hasn't been a year!

T.T

And I say this as an administrator of a WoW roleplaying private server for 7 years... they killed the universe for me, at this point I have redone my server to have custom lore