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 Galas wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The worst of GW fluff butchery still pales to what has been done to Warcraft fluff. Thank goodness for that.

I bought Warcraft Chronicles Volumen 1 from USA a month before is release in spain. They have already retconed it with World of Warcraft: Legion Patch 7.3 finale. It hasn't been a year!

T.T

And I say this as an administrator of a WoW roleplaying private server for 7 years... they killed the universe for me, at this point I have redone my server to have custom lore

really? what did they retcon?

I don't want to be offtopic but basically in Chronicles they explained how the Titans were death and Daemons were inmortal in the real plane because their souls were back to the Tiwsting Nether after death (Basically like Warhammer daemons)

But... NO! The Titans aren't really death afterall! They are trap by the Burning Legion in Argus, a planet where they are trying to create another Titan, the World-Soul of Argus (Yeah, now Argus has a World-Soul) and Daemons are inmortal because they revive in Argus by the power of his World-Soul.
Something absurd because Daemons are much older than the corruptión of Argus or even Sargeras the Dark Titan and they where already inmortal in the past, but... wathever.

They wanted to ended the Burning Legion one and for all and they did it the only way they could: Retconing it because the old lore basically has the Burning Legion invincible.


Thats why I say that some misteris are better left unsolved and as "universe background". They have destroyed the Burning Legion, the BIGGEST EVILZ of Warcraft universe. What they did? Create another "EVEN BIGGER EVILZ", the Void Lords, that are basically Lovecraftian Gods from out the physical universe. And in 4-5 expansions those Void Lords are gonna be destroyed, and who know what will happen next. Probably another bigger evil. Like Dragon Ball Z.

 Galas wrote:
I don't want to be offtopic but basically in Chronicles they explained how the Titans were death and Daemons were inmortal in the real plane because their souls were back to the Tiwsting Nether after death (Basically like Warhammer daemons)

But... NO! The Titans aren't really death afterall! They are trap by the Burning Legion in Argus, a planet where they are trying to create another Titan, the World-Soul of Argus (Yeah, now Argus has a World-Soul) and Daemons are inmortal because they revive in Argus by the power of his World-Soul.
Something absurd because Daemons are much older than the corruptión of Argus or even Sargeras the Dark Titan and they where already inmortal in the past, but... wathever.

They wanted to ended the Burning Legion one and for all and they did it the only way they could: Retconing it because the old lore basically has the Burning Legion invincible.


Thats why I say that some misteris are better left unsolved and as "universe background". They have destroyed the Burning Legion, the BIGGEST EVILZ of Warcraft universe. What they did? Create another "EVEN BIGGER EVILZ", the Void Lords, that are basically Lovecraftian Gods from out the physical universe. And in 4-5 expansions those Void Lords are gonna be destroyed, and who know what will happen next. Probably another bigger evil. Like Dragon Ball Z.

Maybe, you also have the problem of the chronicals books being "authoriative OOC sources" which forces a ahrd retcon when they do wanna do stuff. I was actually talking with a friend I used to play WOW with about this last night, as we're both playing ESO now, ESO's history is all revealed in what people in game tell you, and the various "lore books" you find in game, all written by someone, and thus with a "certain point of view" this means anything you hear is suspect. this is handy as it means if retconns are needed tit's much easier to pull a "EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG" trick GW seems to use almost a hybrid approuch to this, that I'd like to see solidified up. having the space marine codex be "this years update on the fighting forces of the adpetus Astartes, for the high lrods, as compilled by scribe so and so at the orders of the inqusition" could add a LOT of flavor to the codex.

On the topic of "explaining things is bad, look at the Horus Heresy novels" - not quite. The problem isn't that the novels explained the Primarchs, the problem is how they went about it. Completely retconning everything interesting about Fulgrim, for example. Making Vulkan a Perpetual, and much, much more. Things like that. Mystery is best when it has a good pay-off, or else it's just a meaningless story gap.

The other important thing I want to say is that gene-seed definitely does not and did not contribute to the Traitor Legions or any later renegades. The Primarchs and their sons all had their own, very personal, reasons for turning traitor. Except for Horus and Fulgrim, who were both converted unwillingly (except in awful novel retcons, but I ignore that). Making it a genetic trait makes that completely pointless, especially because part of what makes the Horus Heresy so interesting is that the traitors all had different reasons for turning and most of them were varying degrees of justified. That doesn't mean that the in-universe Imperium can't be against using traitor gene-seed, of course, but the opposite is definitely not true. Chaos Marines steal gene-seed from fallen Imperials all the time, and that doesn't mean the resulting Marines end up going double-traitor and becoming Loyalists.

Good points.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
On the topic of "explaining things is bad, look at the Horus Heresy novels" - not quite. The problem isn't that the novels explained the Primarchs, the problem is how they went about it. Completely retconning everything interesting about Fulgrim, for example. Making Vulkan a Perpetual, and much, much more. Things like that. Mystery is best when it has a good pay-off, or else it's just a meaningless story gap.

The other important thing I want to say is that gene-seed definitely does not and did not contribute to the Traitor Legions or any later renegades. The Primarchs and their sons all had their own, very personal, reasons for turning traitor. Except for Horus and Fulgrim, who were both converted unwillingly (except in awful novel retcons, but I ignore that). Making it a genetic trait makes that completely pointless, especially because part of what makes the Horus Heresy so interesting is that the traitors all had different reasons for turning and most of them were varying degrees of justified. That doesn't mean that the in-universe Imperium can't be against using traitor gene-seed, of course, but the opposite is definitely not true. Chaos Marines steal gene-seed from fallen Imperials all the time, and that doesn't mean the resulting Marines end up going double-traitor and becoming Loyalists.

It's a fine line between a plot hole and a mystery but in the past GW was pretty good at walking that line.
Mystery used to be a really good tool for them.