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With the indexes, you get to wait out the hardback, and get the softback when it appears.
We aren't in the same situation that 6th and 7th went through with hardbacks.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

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 Sqorgar wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I don't get to build, paint, and customize my book.

It's also annoying when my other miniature war games have their books cost literally half what GW's do, such as bolt action and Dropzone commander.

Having a monopoly lets them get away with it.

You are responding to a post that proves that GW doesn't have a monopoly. Lots of people have left the GW ecosystem for cheaper alternatives. Other companies are producing similar products at a cheaper cost - but many people still prefer GW products regardless. It's not a monopoly that let's them get away with it. It's the popularity of their games, which I have to assume, is at least in some part due to a superior quality. Maybe they complain about the prices, but they still buy it. Therefore, the prices aren't too high. Just at the upper limit of almost too high.

Pretty sure GW still eclipse those "competitors" by orders of magnitude. X-Wing doesn't count because it's a) A totally different style of game and b) Star Wars fanboys will buy any old gak.

X-Wing absolutely counts, it has taken a decent chunk of GW's marketshare. Go into any X-Wing group/page and ask how many used to play 40k, you'll be surprised how many raise a hand. Many of the painters especially are ex 40k players who were looking for a more balanced game. I'm not going to comment about X-Wing's balance nowadays but you would be insane to not consider them a competitor. I just lost several potential players coming back to 40k today from the local X-Wing group because they saw the $50 codexes and backed right off. Some of these guys have mothballed collections in the 10,000-15,000pts range.

But let's ignore X-Wing, after all it doesn't sell rulebooks so it's not a great comparison. Instead, let's check out two other big names that I'm familiar with, Bolt Action and Dropzone Commander. Both are good games, produce quality content, and most importantly, sell a base ruleset and "codexes" aka armybooks.

Bolt Action's hardback rulebook, which also includes 5 army lists, campaign ideas, scenarios, and high quality construction, is $40 dollars American, before typical 20% online discount. So that right off the bat is $15 cheaper roughly. Then we go to the army books and campaign books, which are $25-$30 softback. Here GW was doing great. They released the indexes as pretty nice quality (and in the case of Imperium 1, surprisingly thick) books that was absolutely competitive with the competition. Even if these indexes had only included one army apiece, the sheer amount of content, layout, and quality would have won a lot of skeptical players back. Instead, we're going back to hardback codexes at double the price, so GW loses here quite decisively. Let's not forget that for the past several years little to no new fluff has been released in the codexes at all (other than faction names changing), painting diagrams have disappeared, scenario and campaign ideas have been stripped, and unit options have generally dropped or been outright deleted. So in a straight comparison of books, GW loses quite badly to Bolt Action from an objective standpoint. This isn't an opinion piece, you can look at any GW codex in recent memory and absolutely state that you are getting less in the book compared to competitors, and yet paying close to double for it. This is a huge issue for winning back old players who HAVE tried other games. Yes, Bolt Action is not 40k, but when I've been playing Bolt Action for 3 years because 40k 7th edition was garbage, I'm going to notice that 8th edition's codex prices are stupid, especially if I need to buy books for multiple armies. This is the issue I'm running into trying to win back old players. They were really excited when all they needed was $25-$75 in indexes to update their armies, only to have the rug pulled out when they find out that individual codexes will cost double that. Heck some of the space marine players in my area hadn't even had a chance to use their index before preorders popped up for the codex!

Now let's go for a different take on the army book idea, Dropzone Commander. Dropzone is interesting in that your rulebook contains the main rules for the big 4 armies in the game, with books being released every so often that update all the armies at once as well as add new ones (such as Reconquest Phase 1 adding the Resistance) In this instance, you're getting updates for all armies at the same time as well as campaign ideas, new lore (and quite a bit of it) as well as new units and rebalancing of older units. These books are, again, in softback for around $25 dollars. These are still excellent quality books crammed with content, art, rules, lore, and various other goodies. This again, destroys the GW $50 hardback codexes on pretty much every level. Yet the books are still full color, 2-300 pages, filled with excellent artwork, photos, and plenty of diagrams. Granted, you're talking only 5 armies or so in DZC, but that is still a big deal.

Now, we get to the final point of contention. "Well GW books are higher quality because they're hardback, they last longer and hold up better." But do they really though? We all know that anything GW makes will require a day 1 FAQ, so why on earth are you wanting to drop $50 on a hardback that will immediately have errata day one? This was why people were excited to see $25 indexes. Yes, it still sucks that we'll need day 1 FAQ's, but with a $25 index covering multiple factions its a much easier pill to swallow. It's not a big deal that I need to update a softback because they're incredibly easy to get spiralbound and update over time. They even condensed points and unit profiles onto 2-4 pages per army so they'd be easy to replace! That was perfect! Why on earth would you screw that up by going back to a hardback, especially when you're marketing the game as a "living ruleset" and implying that this is the last edition 40k will ever need? There are so many former players on the fence about 40k right now who are dipping their toes back in and giving it a look. These players are absolutely necessary because they're helping to jumpstart new groups with the rise of 8th. For every new player I've gotten in my store, we've had another who is an old player dusting off an army. These old players are a wealth of hobby info, lore, and just general additional blood that is vital to getting momentum back into this game. Ticking them off by essentially saying "no, we haven't changed, we're still extorting you for books, have fun" is going to immediately ruin all of that, and it is absolutely going to happen.


TL;DR: What I'm trying to say is that if GW nailed the codexes every time on the first try and they were the only company in the industry, MAYBE I could see an argument to $50 hardback codexes. However they don't, and they aren't, so it's pretty ridiculous that they're still making these same mistakes. Competitors, and yes, these games do compete with 40k, have been releasing comparable quality at 2/3rd's to 1/2 the price for their books for years now. It is inexcusable that GW is still insisting on hardbacks with no softback alternative. This is the kind of thing that encourages people to pirate codexes or just get by on whatever rules they've got off of battlescribe, and it ultimately hurts the game in the long run. It discourages old players from buying back in, gives sticker shock to new players, and punishes players for picking up multiple armies. If GW is going to say they're the best in the business, they need to act like it, and they should absolutely be held accountable for making such a stupid mistake again. They had it down pretty well too! The softback indexes were very competitively priced and even the hardback rulebook wasn't too bad considering it comes with the starter set. I don't have any issue with hardbacks being an option for collectors, heck if they actually had something new in the books like lore and artwork I'd actually consider it for my main army, but as is there is no justification for releasing these books as anything other than softcovers.

Not everyone who is looking to get into wargaming is dead set on 40k. Some do want to play specifically 40k for the lore and models, but you'll be surprised how many would just as soon play another game if given the choice. For this latter group, pricing and quality absolutely matters, and if GW doesn't learn from their mistakes, they'll just be repeating 7th all over again. This is why I'm mad that GW is insisting on hardback codexes again. I've put a ton of work into rebuilding the local 40k group and GW is actively sabotaging my attempts to bring in returning players as well as new ones.

/slightly drunk 3am rant.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

Monopoly = Able to charge. What you gonna do, not buy the rules for your army?

Er, that's clearly not what a monopoly is. The existence of other companies selling science fiction wargames is evidence of that. Of course Games Workshop are the only people selling Games Workshop-branded games, but that's no more a monopoly than saying Ford have a monopoly because no-one else sells Mondeos.

If you don't want to spend the extra on a hard back, then wait until the softback is out and buy it instead.

Since im only playing one army i very much look forward to a good looking hardcover codex.

I can understand the issue for those with several armies though, stats should be free as in AoS

50... Each.

I have a index I aiant got the most fancy codex and such, with fanciest stuff.

But I can play with my 30 quids in books fine.

I think I'm just going to keep playing from my Indexes. I like the fact there are no real wargear options, just WYSIWYG, and everything is self explanatory.

Because GW is a horrible company. Obviously.

Boycott them.

 Traditio wrote:
Because GW is a horrible company. Obviously.

Boycott them.

Reported for spam. Doing this all across a 40k forum is not helping. It does not contribute, it does not add.

I like the hardcover books. They're shiny. I'm a sucker for those nice, textured covers, and they look so much nicer on the shelf.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think I'm just going to keep playing from my Indexes. I like the fact there are no real wargear options, just WYSIWYG, and everything is self explanatory.

Enjoy having everyone refusing to play you.

I prefer hardback books period for any book that I get.

I don't penny pinch to such extremes that the extra $15-$20 enrages me.

The incessant whining about how GW costs more than other companies got old about a decade ago. Yes. GW costs more than the other companies. GW is in no way, shape, or form required to keep their prices in line with tinier companies. If you don't like that, then play the other companies' games. If one's first worry is about how much it costs, then GW is definitely not right for them. The fact that GW has tripled their stock price recently says that they will be fine without trying to cater to everybody.

It was said in 2004 after all that GW was going to die any day now due to their high price point.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Hardbacks, even if they cost more, since they age way better than softbacks.

I never throw away my old armybooks or codeci, I collect them, and the hardbacks look more or less new despite some of them being several years old. The softbacks on the other hand... jeez.

I've had the opposite experience to that, I've kept all of my Chaos Codeces but the one in the worst nick is my 6/7th ed Hardback chaos book. Maybe it's because it's the book I've used for the longest and I was more active in 7th ed than 3-6th but the back statlines page has fallen out and the back of the book is feeling very flimsy. :(

Also, hardback books I've found are more difficult and cumbersome to transport/carry to games. Though, I must admit, I good hardback book certainly feels better to read.

I will be getting them digital. I would buy the books but the only way I would want that is if codexes came in 2 book packs one with thte fluff antrtwork and painting information so that I could read and enjoy that book at home and then a second much thinner rules book preferably the size of the old mini rulebooks. so they easily tuck into a pocket or army case and are less intrusive on/around the table. bonus points if it were spiral bound so it would lay flat. currently I just get the digital ones and print/format my own small rulebooks like this and love them/ constantly get comments about how people wish gw would do this

Hardbacks are harder wearing I find, and less prone to page floppage when left open for consultation during a game.

The binding is better, and they're of course less prone to being squished and ripped during transportation.

Plus, they look ded snazzy when on bookshelf display.

But most of all? I'm looking forward to not needing four separate books, not including the rulebook, just to field my mixed mechanicus of 7th ed (Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii, Imperial Knights and the Forgeworld Mechanicum for the Ordinatus).


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 auticus wrote:
I prefer hardback books period for any book that I get.

I don't penny pinch to such extremes that the extra $15-$20 enrages me.

The incessant whining about how GW costs more than other companies got old about a decade ago. Yes. GW costs more than the other companies. GW is in no way, shape, or form required to keep their prices in line with tinier companies. If you don't like that, then play the other companies' games. If one's first worry is about how much it costs, then GW is definitely not right for them. The fact that GW has tripled their stock price recently says that they will be fine without trying to cater to everybody.

It was said in 2004 after all that GW was going to die any day now due to their high price point.

And 2005. And 2006. And 2007. And 2008. And 2009. And 2010. And 2011. And 2012. And 2013. And 2014. And 2015. And 2016. In fact, come to think of it, that claim has been made regularly ever since I joined Portent way back in 1998ish....

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think I'm just going to keep playing from my Indexes. I like the fact there are no real wargear options, just WYSIWYG, and everything is self explanatory.

Enjoy having everyone refusing to play you.

Meh. I have enough models that I can play against myself.

that claim has been made regularly ever since I joined Portent way back in 1998ish....

I miss Portent. I was on there from the beginning as well. And yes it was brought up as far back as the late 90s as well.

I remember two distinct rage posts on portent.

Skeleton warriors getting plastics and being $20 for a box (this was price gouging, $1 for a plastic model was absurd) and the 2000 Land Raider debut for $45 (which devolved into a rage thread about how model companies like Tamiya produced M1 Abrams kits for roughly the same price point but were more detailed and GW was just price gouging)

It wasn't until privateer released warmachine (the GW killer) that the "they are going to die any day due to their price point" was a regular mantra.

And we saw what Privateer did once they got big

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think I'm just going to keep playing from my Indexes. I like the fact there are no real wargear options, just WYSIWYG, and everything is self explanatory.

Enjoy having everyone refusing to play you.

Meh. I have enough models that I can play against myself.

I honestly think very very few people would refuse to play against you. I also think you'll see some tasty rules in your codex and cave in.

Sim-Life wrote:
I love this hobby. I don't know any other hobby where people spend thousands of dollars collecting six armies then complain about spending a fraction of their cost on a book.

It's like buying a console then complaining you need to spend money on the games.

I don't think anyone minds paying 50$ for a rulebook.

But in 7th edition the rules of the game were spread all over 50 different 50$ rulebooks, and in order to play a game between two opponents you would need to have access to, and be familiar with, half a dozen of those books. This was very cumbersome, unsatisfying and expensive. It also made the threshold of entry into the game very high. People don't want that back.


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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Having a monopoly lets them get away with it.

But they don't have a monopoly. There are other games out there.

 jhe90 wrote:
50... Each.

I have a index I aiant got the most fancy codex and such, with fanciest stuff.

But I can play with my 30 quids in books fine.

50 dollars. Poor yanks.


Im not bothered to be fair. Its just a book. New marine dex is only 30 quid. Take 20% off and its an instant buy

D-I-G-I-T-A-L

It costs a fortune to make both paperback and hardback. It should not be a surprise they start with Hardback then digital.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

You mean the wiki that only just recently got brought up to N3? That for something like two years was still the old rules?

Yeah. The Infinity Army thing is nice and all, but there's a reason it's free. They built Infinity Tournament System functionality into it and they use it for data collection purposes.

 Sqorgar wrote:
You are responding to a post that proves that GW doesn't have a monopoly. Lots of people have left the GW ecosystem for cheaper alternatives. Other companies are producing similar products at a cheaper cost - but many people still prefer GW products regardless. It's not a monopoly that let's them get away with it. It's the popularity of their games, which I have to assume, is at least in some part due to a superior quality. Maybe they complain about the prices, but they still buy it. Therefore, the prices aren't too high. Just at the upper limit of almost too high.

Well wargames seem to be a rather inelastic market (where consumers don't really change thier behavior too much when the price shifts), and when you have that combined with as much market share as GW has, it may as well be a monopoly. Plus there's also the sunk cost fallacy almost all wargamers fall into, where you talk yourself into buying more gak from GW because you've already got thousands of dollars worth of GW gak. And if you decide to change games, there's this perception that all that money spent would be wasted. This makes it players who've spent a lot on GW gak feel like GW is the only option, creating a very strong perception of a monopoly, even if it isn't 100% accurate

I used to think of my books as collections, but not anymore. Give me cheaper, soft back, or ideally spiral bound books and I'll buy more of them than a crazy priced hardback book that I'll never open again in a few years anyway.

Pretty much this. Or a digital version.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

You mean the wiki that only just recently got brought up to N3? That for something like two years was still the old rules?

Yeah. The Infinity Army thing is nice and all, but there's a reason it's free. They built Infinity Tournament System functionality into it and they use it for data collection purposes.

You make the tournament functionality and data collection sound like a bad thing (unless by bad thing, you mean Corvus Belli is collecting personal data rather than popularity of certain units/playstyles).

I wish they just made the rules; I don't care about the fluff or painting guide or any other nonsense, I just want rules to play the game. For people like me it's paying $50 for 10 pages in a 150 page book.

Hardback is sexy. What they should do is have Hardbacks for people that like the book, and the downloads for a much lower cost for the price-conscious consumer.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

You mean the wiki that only just recently got brought up to N3? That for something like two years was still the old rules?

Yeah. The Infinity Army thing is nice and all, but there's a reason it's free. They built Infinity Tournament System functionality into it and they use it for data collection purposes.

You make the tournament functionality and data collection sound like a bad thing (unless by bad thing, you mean Corvus Belli is collecting personal data rather than popularity of certain units/playstyles).

The point.
You've missed it.
They have a vested interest in keeping the Army Builder running and constantly updated. The guy who's in charge of it("V") started doing it as a fan project and was later hired by CB to run it full-time.

As it stands, they've said they use the Army Builder as a kind of "market research" keeping tabs on units that get put in there to decide what to produce next. But even with that said, it's worth noting that another key reason they do this?

They aren't a big enough company to jump queues at printers.

 Yarium wrote:
Hardback is sexy. What they should do is have Hardbacks for people that like the book, and the downloads for a much lower cost for the price-conscious consumer.

Hardback is too expensive. I like printed books much more than the digital versions. Flipping back and forth.

 Yarium wrote:
Hardback is sexy. What they should do is have Hardbacks for people that like the book, and the downloads for a much lower cost for the price-conscious consumer.

They tried that for AOS with free rules for a little while.

Turned out no one wanted to buy the book at all if the rules were free.

Pretty poor way for a company to stay in business. Turned out the vast majority of their market were this:

I wish they just made the rules; I don't care about the fluff or painting guide or any other nonsense, I just want rules to play the game. For people like me it's paying $50 for 10 pages in a 150 page book.

So... if they are going to give the option between cheap and hardback, they might as well never do hardback again. And if they gave the option between just the rules with no fluff or anything else and the army books as we know them, they might as well not ever produce army books with anything other than rules.

I like the hardback books, and being a D&D player, I'm used to it.

However, for the codexes, I don't mind having soft cover books. I like the hardbacks, but I'd rather save $20 or $30, as long as they're as nice as the Indexes.