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 auticus wrote:
I think that we are talking about two different things.

I am specifically talking about the people that were playing AOS, and enjoying AOS, without the GHB. In pre-GHB days of AOS, no one wanted to buy the campaign books or army books (no one coming from the pool of people enjoying the game) because they weren't needed.

Then points came out and artefacts and special rules for the army, and people suddenly starting buying the books because they wanted those things and couldn't get them for free.

IF GW had made the points free, the artefacts free, etc ... I guarantee they would have continued not buying the books.

You are referencing people that werent playing AOS before GHB and are only playing nowt hat points are introduced, which is a different pool of people.

We are and we aren't. The number of people I know who were playing AoS before the GHB came out was very small. The number of people who started playing AoS after the GHB came out is vastly larger. The reason for that is not the books themselves, but the completion of the rules which are provided in those books.

Besides that, you yourself stated before and just stated now that your pre-GHB group only felt they "needed" the books when the GHB came out and completed a defined army building process. Never mind that AoS is still just as officially playable in the same exact way without the GHB today as it was before the GHB was released.

And the point I have been trying to make has been that the people I know did not play AoS because they felt it was incomplete. GHB made it complete, but at the cost of buying books.

You were stating that people wanted the books, no matter the price, over a free digital format. I said that it is the exact opposite, that people would prefer free digital rules over rules in books, and you are now agreeing with me.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I for one would love to have mini rulebook back, I don't need or want to bring the fluff with me to every game, I would like something similar for the Codex. A mini codex that's rules and points values for $20? I would buy the hardcover for home and the mini book to play with.

Yes this. I don't need to carry fluff with me to the game store.

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't need to carry fluff with me to the game store.

Sometimes its nice to have for bull sessions, but we don't need them on the table, that's for sure.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

Monopoly = Able to charge. What you gonna do, not buy the rules for your army?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I don't get to build, paint, and customize my book.

It's also annoying when my other miniature war games have their books cost literally half what GW's do, such as bolt action and Dropzone commander.

Having a monopoly lets them get away with it.

You are responding to a post that proves that GW doesn't have a monopoly. Lots of people have left the GW ecosystem for cheaper alternatives. Other companies are producing similar products at a cheaper cost - but many people still prefer GW products regardless. It's not a monopoly that let's them get away with it. It's the popularity of their games, which I have to assume, is at least in some part due to a superior quality. Maybe they complain about the prices, but they still buy it. Therefore, the prices aren't too high. Just at the upper limit of almost too high.

Pretty sure GW still eclipse those "competitors" by orders of magnitude. X-Wing doesn't count because it's a) A totally different style of game and b) Star Wars fanboys will buy any old gak.

40k fanboys don't huh ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Because GW is a horrible company. Obviously.

Boycott them.

Reported for spam. Doing this all across a 40k forum is not helping. It does not contribute, it does not add.

There is nothing wrong with saying ones opinion, why does it hurt or bother you that he criticizes a game about plastic soldiers ?

Because coloured and durable hardback codexes with gritty and beautiful artwork are nice and look pretty. Also Codexes arent just rules compendiums, they are full sourcebooks for fluff as well. As for having to spend so much on the books, you chose to buy so many small armies and you also can choose to buy them all at once or be sensible and buy them when you can afford them. They don't get ruined and dogearred after 5 trips to the club to play a game. They aren't going to get too badly damaged by a split drink and you can clean errant paint splashes off them with warm water. They look great, they feel great, and they are great. The only ungreat thing is the price but even then, I'd rather pay 50 for the hardback than 10 for Softback.

If you want to have your fingers in many pies, don't complain when the baker asks you to pay for them all.

You were stating that people wanted the books, no matter the price, over a free digital format. I said that it is the exact opposite, that people would prefer free digital rules over rules in books, and you are now agreeing with me.

Then there was a massive misunderstanding. I didn't ever think people wanted the books no matter the price. Quite the opposite. People DONT want extra books and DONT want to pay for rules if they can get them for free.

People were buying the books only because the extra rules were in there that they couldn't get for free, and only were begrudgingly buying the books.

That stems from my first statement which was that a giant chunk of people would prefer a rules pamphlet for $5-$10 and hate having to buy hardback books for narrative and art that they don't care about. Something along the lines of having the rules free and then having optional books for people that want the narrative. My first statement was in response to that where GW learned their lesson from AOS. If they give the rules for free, the vast majority of people will not ever buy a book if they don't have to.

You make it sound like a bad thing people want the rules for free and that we should want to give GW the most amount of money for a product we may not even want.

The rest of the industry has shifted to either free rules, or much cheaper rules, and all those companies are doing fine. There is literally no reason we should be praising or defending GW's decision to sell expensive hardback books, often filled with gak fluff, poor art work, and frankly, low quality rules.

I'd never thought I'd see someone revolt against the idea of free/cheaper stuff.

What I said was pretty neutral actually. All I said was that for a business, offering free rules and then trying to sell hardback rule books would be a huge mistake because very few would actually buy those books if they could get the rules for free.

As to revolting against the idea of free/cheaper stuff, I understand that in business nothing is free. I look at the companies that offer free/cheaper stuff on the whole and am not impressed with the quality of their offerings. You get what you pay for.

I enjoy the wargaming hobby for the aesthetics, not the game, so free/cheaper models making the tables look worse would be something I revolt against, yes.

UNless there was a way to get free/cheaper stuff without affecting the quality.

FOr a publicly traded company, offering free rules would make me put forward a motion to fire the board if I was a stock holder though.

 Blacksails wrote:
You make it sound like a bad thing people want the rules for free and that we should want to give GW the most amount of money for a product we may not even want.

The rest of the industry has shifted to either free rules, or much cheaper rules, and all those companies are doing fine. There is literally no reason we should be praising or defending GW's decision to sell expensive hardback books, often filled with gak fluff, poor art work, and frankly, low quality rules.

I'd never thought I'd see someone revolt against the idea of free/cheaper stuff.

Because I like having art, fluff and rules for my faction in one book. A problem is only a problem if you dont like the status quo. The rules arent going to improve by removing the art and fluff. That is a straight fact. The rules will be what they are. The fluff and art are nice to have and a single source book is the best option. Even someone like me, who loves the non-gaming side, isn't going to go buying a 30 book for stuff I can find on Lexicanum and Google images in 2 weeks time.

The rest of the industry is irrelevant. They offer competition, not alternatives. If you just want to play a game, that's maybe not at issue, but if you want to play 40k then this is how it is done.

Here's the reason we should be defending it: We like the fluff for the faction with the rules, we like the art work, and the rules are going to be the same. We like the current codex format. We don't like paying £30 a pop, but we also live in the real world where things cost money, including labour and publication. You wanna play the game, you gotta pay the entry fee. If you think the entry fee is too high, make it known. But don't try to ruin other people's experience by removing stuff that doesn't need to be removed.

 auticus wrote:
UNless there was a way to get free/cheaper stuff without affecting the quality.

Well, the rules quality is already pretty bad. There are much higher quality systems which offer free rules than what GW provides.

 auticus wrote:
FOr a publicly traded company, offering free rules would make me put forward a motion to fire the board if I was a stock holder though.

I don't know, it depends on the business model. Currently, GW is not presenting itself as a game company, but a model company. The rules are there to sell the models. When you are now in an environment where you are rapidly losing market share because of the large buy-in to the game.

They (and you) need to understand the concept of how a "loss-leader" works. This is how the majority of video game consoles work these days. Microsoft and Sony make nothing off the sales of the Xbox and Playstation and haven't for decades now. They make money off of licensing games to work on the consoles and accessories used with the console.

GW doesn't want to be a game company, that's fine. Then they don't sell the rules, they sell the models. They want to make money off the IP, that's what the Dark Library is for. Faction codices with artwork and "how to paint" can be sold from there. They won't sell as many as codices from past years, but then you won't have to print/stock as many to begin with, either.

 auticus wrote:
What I said was pretty neutral actually. All I said was that for a business, offering free rules and then trying to sell hardback rule books would be a huge mistake because very few would actually buy those books if they could get the rules for free.

You'd think so, but this is not actually the case. All rules for Pathfinder are freely available online either through official or sanctioned 3rd party channels and Paizo is still doing very well for themselves with their core rulebook a consistent top seller.