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Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






More feed back.

-Charges: I like 8ths version where you do not need LoS to charge you just have to be within 12". I can see hormagaunts/orks/kohne berserkers just running around the side of a ruin and smashing into people. No reason they need los before the charge. They should simply need to be in charge range.

-As much as I understand trying to make the rules as reflective of 8th as possible to ease the transition I think the Gates rules with non random charges might be better. But then I haven't really tested both types against each other enough yet to really make a call on this. Just noting it.

-Is there a reason units have to be more than 1" away from allied units?


   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User



Norrköping, Sweden

I haven't had the chance to play theese rules yet. But as a Tyranid player I can right away see the problem with theese rules and the Genestealer "Swift & deadly" rule. In 8th edition they get to both advance and assault in the same turn with this rule.
under your rules that wouldn't work i guess (endingf up first doing an advance move and than a charge move would take them across the whole table almost!).

So my suggestion for this ruleset would be that the "Swift and deadly" rule lets them reroll any advance or charge die roll (1 or two dice depending on the order).
   
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@Lance 845

The LOS for charges is just an old habit from other rulesets we play that require LOS to charge. It can be changed.

I’m a huge fan of non-random charges. In fact, this conversion began with the double move for charges and the deepstriking rules from 7th but much of 8th is tied to that damn 9” away rule for ‘deepstriking’ units and the 2d6 roll to charge that distance. Too much to change, I think.

No particular reason for the 1" away from allied units rule, really. Just a copy/paste from Antares. In our games it hasn’t come up in any meaningful way so it can be scrapped, no sweat.

@mordoten

Excellent. This is the type of feedback that’s very important. Too many special rules out there to trip over.

In this conversion, the Charge order combines being able to Move (but not Advance) and Charge in the same phase as in 8th. So, my thinking is this…

Genestealer move options in 8th:
Move: 8”
Advance: 8”+1d6
Charge: 2d6

Swift and Deadly: Genestealers can charge even if they Advanced during their turn.

We combine their Advance move distance with the Charge move distance. Total move distance when activating with a Charge order: 8+3d6

Thanks for the feedback, guys.
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User



Norrköping, Sweden

Oh, thats a neat thing to do! I like it!
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






I redract my mentioning liking a flat charge range. Its true that a lot of weapons and deepstrike are built with ranges specifically balanced for that 9"deepstrike range. The 2d6 charge included. (Though i would argue that so is the within 1" for melee instead of base to base. Needing an 8 to be in combat and needing a 9 are very different).

   
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OP updated with the (Basic) Gates of 40K version.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/08 16:53:49


 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






A couple suggestions. First you should define all the different actions and what they allow or do not allow.

Examples

Move: The unit may move up to it's M attribute.

Advance: A unit that makes a Move action may add 1d6 to it's M attribute. A unit that Advances may only fire assault weapons when it shoots. A unit that Advances may not Charge.

Shoot: A unit may make a shooting attack (follow all the rules for shooting from 8th edition).

Charge: The unit may charge a target unit within 12". Roll 2d6 etc etc...

Manifest Psychic Powers:

Suggestion for combined Advance and Charge orders.

Advance: The unit may Move. The unit may Advance. The unit may Shoot. The unit may Manifest Psychic Powers. The unit may Charge so long as it did not Advance.

If you clearly define all the permissions for each action first you can simplify the individual orders by just referencing the actions and also cut down on the repetition of rules in each order. You also then don't have to say what a unit cannot do. (I.E. you don't have to say that a unit cannot move when they Rally or Down. You simply do not say "The unit may Move.")

   
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@Lance845

Thanks. I've updated both files with cleaned up versions.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






I have been running through the document with a fine tooth comb. Over the last few days I have been typing up an "editors draft" or whatever. Mostly changing up the order in which the rules are presented so it's a little easier to read and follow and/or simplifying the language.

You can take it or leave it. It's not done yet, but here is a preview. Il post the actual doc when I am done. Feel free to take anything you want from it and make any changes you see fit. I will be happy to explain any changes I made.

Spoiler:
INTRODUCTION

This conversion is meant to remove the IGOUGO system from the 40K game and to better facilitate player interaction by blending into 8th Edition 40K the Action/Reaction system of Beyond the Gates of Antares (BTGoA).

For any rules not found in this conversion, refer to the 8thEdition 40K rules.

D6 TO D12 CONVERSION
2+ = 3+
3+ = 5+
4+ = 7+
5+ = 9+
6+ = 11+


TURN SEQUENCE

The game is broken up into a number of Game Turns. Each Turn is comprised of a number of Activations. Players take turns Activating units until every unit has been activated. At which point a new Game Turn begins.

We will assume the order of Activation is done using the BTGoA method within the document. Alternative methods will be listed at the end of the document in the Alternative Rules section. Before the game begins, place an Order Token for each Unit into a bag, making sure the Tokens are physically identical to touch but each players Tokens are identifiable (generally by having different colors). It is recommended to use dice of the same size and shape but different colors for this purpose, but anything can be used.

A Game Turn is comprised of 3 phases.
1. Start Phase
2. Orders Phase
3. End Phase

START PHASE

A Order Token is added to the bag for every unit in the players army unless that unit is Embarked upon a Transport. Keep the Order Tokens for units Embarked upon a Transport to the side in case you decide to activate those units during your Activation.

Before the first Game Turn players may choose to issue the Ambush Order to any Units they have Deployed on the battlefield. If they choose to do so, instead of adding that Units Order Token to the bag place it next to the Unit to indicate this.

Any abilities that can be activated at the beginning of your turn or end at the beginning of your turn do so now.

ORDERS PHASE

1. Draw a Token from the bag. The player to whom it belongs chooses one of his Units and gives it an
Order. Place the Token next to the unit to indicate that it has been activated.

2. If necessary, the player takes an Order Test to
determine if the unit follows the Order.

3. The player works out the unit’s resulting Action.

4. Back to 1. Once all eligible Units have received their Orders, the bag is empty and the Orders Phase ends. Move to the End Phase.

END PHASE

Any abilities that activate or end at the end of your turn do so now.

Units that currently have a Ambush Order may retain the Order if the controlling player chooses. Keep their Order Token next to the unit to indicate this.


ORDERS

Orders are composed of a number of Actions. A Unit may be given one of the following Orders when it is issued an Order Token. A Unit that has been issued an Order Token may not be issued another Order Token.

FIRE
• The Unit may Shoot with a +1 bonus to hit.
• The Unit may Manifest Psychic Powers.

MOVE
• The Unit may Move.
• The Unit may Shoot.
• The Unit may Manifest Psychic Powers.

CHARGE
• The Unit may Move.
• The Unit may Advance.
• The Unit may Shoot.
• The Unit may Manifest Psychic Powers.
• The Unit may Charge.

AMBUSH
• The Unit may attempt Reactions and may use the Ambush Reaction.

RALLY
• The Unit removes D6 Pin Markers.

DOWN
• The Unit gains Light Cover. Only Infantry Units may be issued this Order.


REACTIONS

When a unit is given an Order in the Orders Phase, it is possible that Enemy Units can attempt a Reaction. In order for a Unit to attempt a Reaction it must either not have been issued an Order yet in the current Turn or have the Ambush Order.

Reactions are composed of 2 parts. A Trigger Condition and a number of Actions that are resolved immediately. The controlling player declares the Reaction they wish to attempt when the Trigger Condition occurs. The current Order is interrupted by the attempt and can resume when the Reaction attempt is resolved. When a Unit attempts a Reaction they make a Leadership Test. It is possible for two or more Units to attempt a Reaction at the same time. If a player chooses to attempt a Reaction with multiple Units they must declare all attempts before making any rolls. A Unit may not attempt a Reaction in response to a Reaction.

When a Unit attempts a Reaction they make a Leadership Test. If the test is passed remove a Token from the bag and issue it to the Reacting Unit and then resolve the Reaction. If the Leadership Test is failed no further action is taken and the current Order is resumed.

REACTIONS

DOWN
• Trigger Condition: The Unit is declared the target of a Shoot Action. A Unit that attempts to make a Down Reaction automatically passes their Leadership Test. No roll is made. No Pins are gained or removed. Only Infantry Units may attempt a Down Reaction.
• The Unit gains Light Cover. Only Infantry Units may be issued this Order.

STAND AND SHOOT
• Trigger Condition: The Unit is declared the target of a Charge Action.
• The Unit may Shoot the Triggering Unit.

ESCAPE!
• Trigger Condition: The Unit is declared the target of a Charge Action.
• The Unit may Advance.

FIREFIGHT
• Trigger Condition: The Unit is declared the target of a Shoot Action by a Unit within 24”.
• The Unit may Shoot the Triggering Unit. This Reaction takes place simultaneously as the Trigger Condition and no wounds are allocated until all shots have been fired.
DASH TO COVER
• Trigger Condition: The Unit is declared the target of a Shoot Action by a Unit more than 24” away.
• The Unit may Advance.

AMBUSH
• Trigger Condition: A enemy Unit moves within Line of Sight with a Move or Advance Action. The Triggering Unit must interrupt it's Action in the Ambushing Units LOS. The Triggering Unit may complete it's Action after the Ambush is resolved. This Reaction may only be attempted if the Unit has been issued the Ambush Order.
• The Unit may Shoot the Triggering Unit. The Target reduces their Cover by 1 step (Medium Cover becomes Light Cover).


ACTIONS


MOVE
ADVANCE
MANIFEST PSYCHIC POWERS
SHOOT
CHARGE
CONSOLIDATE
EMBARK
DISEMBARK

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/20 10:04:53


   
Made in us
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Nice. I look forward to seeing the final doc.
   
Made in us
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Advanced version updated with a few rules tweaks to Fighting and the Ambush reaction. Changes are in red text.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VmUUWy5UUCgRiKn1GgJyXePZ6Fr5M8t2xl7_t8glW_U/edit?usp=sharing

This is where I am at so far.

I am all the way up to Terrain. I have part of your doc copy pasted after mine because I keep referencing those parts of it as I work on it.

I simplified a couple mechanics to bring them closer in line to standard 40k but still maintaining some depth.

A good example is cover.

I made 3 levels of cover.

Light provides the -1 to hit (like BYGoA does) Generally granted by terrain that doesn't have much substance to it. Tall grass, hills, fences, other small area terrain.

Medium is -1 to hit and +2 to sv (a merging of BTGoA and 40k) Mostly granted by what you think of when you think of Terrain in 40k. Ruins, Buildings, Aegis Defense lines.

Heavy is -1 to hit and +4 to sv (Achievable by taking a down order (Which now increases your cover by 1 ste. No cover becomes light, light becomes medium.) in Medium Terrain or using the City Ruins rules from Cities of Death.


I do intend to get to more advanced rules and alternate rules where I will include a reformatted version of the rules you wrote up so far. But I wanted to take a swing at a pass that was a little closer to standard 40k for terrain just for ease of access to anyone who wants to give this version a go.

Please, all criticism is welcome. Let me know what you think. I hope you don't feel like I am stepping on your toes or anything. Just spit balling all the ideas back and forth in the most efficient way I can think of.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/23 19:16:10


   
Made in us
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My toes are safe and sound, no worries. Your work’s looking good so far.

Your cover rules show us to be in different camps on that subject as I’m of the opinion that cover makes one harder to hit not better able to resist a hit. Your thoughts there?

The version I posted is about as close to 8th as we’ll be taking these rules. Your efforts to bring them even closer can only be a good thing for those looking to keep most of the same flavor of 8th but with the excellent Action/Reaction system instead of IGOUGO.

Keep it up.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






I don't disagree that cover should be making people harder to hit.

But I also worry that between Pins, other penalties to hit (moving and shooting heavy weapons), some units general poor BS (orks), and Cover it will quickly degrade into units only hitting on a 12 anyway and as a result having cover do nothing.

If a Orks BS 5 means he is hitting on a 9+ that means cover -1, advance -2 on a assault weapon, and a single pin already puts them PAST the 12 only to hit. You could just as easy not be in cover and have the same effect.

To combat that I wanted to kind of mix the benefit. Provide both a penalty to hit (first and foremost) and then add in the bonus to SV. That way even if a unit caps out on to hit penalties and is only hitting on a 12 you STILL have a reason to want to go Down as a reaction or get into some terrain.

I haven't made it there yet, but I intend to have the rules as you have them as a "Advanced" Terrain alternate rules. I am trying to make the core document as close to 40k as possible for ease of access with the bonus stuff bringing it closer to BTGoA.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/24 07:11:00


   
Made in us
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Yeah the trip to 12 is quick with the modifiers stacking up. That was the reason we went with the modifiers as written and not doubling up for the d12 like you suggested earlier in the thread. Also a reason for not having a penalty to Assault weapons when Advancing.

Thirty shoota boyz on the move and hitting targets in the open on 9s is a wonderful thing. My opponents always made it a priority to put a least a couple of pins on those big mobs as they came up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/24 14:02:51


 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






Mithras001 wrote:
Yeah the trip to 12 is quick with the modifiers stacking up. That was the reason we went with the modifiers as written and not doubling up for the d12 like you suggested earlier in the thread. Also a reason for not having a penalty to Assault weapons when Advancing.

Thirty shoota boyz on the move and hitting targets in the open on 9s is a wonderful thing. My opponents always made it a priority to put a least a couple of pins on those big mobs as they came up.


I can see all that. I will revisit those elements.
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User



Norrköping, Sweden

Hey guys!

What happened with this rule ideas? I really like them and hope you continue developing them (this is for the advanced version to be clear, the basic version seems "meh" to be honest)
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






Mostly it just works. I get some test games when I can and I am currently hunting down a way to get a large amount of d12s at a 10mm scale.

   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




@mordten
The advanced rules where they're at are working great for my group. We’ve been tinkering a little here and there so I’ll update the advanced version with our changes.

@Lance845
Yeah, odd that d12s don’t come in smaller sizes as 10mm ones would be great. I can fit about 40 or so regular ones in my mitts to roll into a dollar store picture frame we have on a small side table. Any more than that and the dice app usually comes out.

Edit: Advanced version updated. Changes in red text.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 01:05:45


 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User



Norrköping, Sweden

Hello Guys!

Got another question about a specific thing:

The Swarmlord has an ability where he lets a tyranid squad within 6" move (or advance) one more time in the shooting phase). Would that ability work in this ruleset or would it be needed to be modified somehow?
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






mordoten wrote:
Hello Guys!

Got another question about a specific thing:

The Swarmlord has an ability where he lets a tyranid squad within 6" move (or advance) one more time in the shooting phase). Would that ability work in this ruleset or would it be needed to be modified somehow?


The wording would need to change. "During the Swarmlord's activation you may select another unit within 6" of the swarmlord. That unit may move and advance as though it was their activation. But may not shoot on their next activation."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/02 15:36:12


   
Made in se
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Norrköping, Sweden

So no charge from that unit using the Swarmlords ability?
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






mordoten wrote:
So no charge from that unit using the Swarmlords ability?


It should mimic the 40k rule as close as possible. If you advance you cannot charge. Cast onslaught and you can.

   
Made in se
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Norrköping, Sweden

Mithras001: Have you guys done any battlereports or videos with this ruleset being used? Would be fun to see how your games are played.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




mordoten wrote:
Mithras001: Have you guys done any battlereports or videos with this ruleset being used? Would be fun to see how your games are played.


I've thought of doing a video batrep but lack a decent enough camera to do it justice, I'm afraid.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






If I can get some people together I can try to do it... editing the video into something worth watching will be time consuming though... When and if I will post it to here.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





There's some good work here, this is precisely the core rule shell I was looking for to be the foundation for my Codex restructuring project. Some issues as well though, both balance and design related, and the formatting and templating is much too fast and loose for my personal liking.

If you don't mind I'm going to have a pass at rewriting this system myself, cleaning it up with a more professional looking document and adjusting some of the rules. When I'm finished I'll post it here for critique and we can discuss the changes I've made and what you think of them.

I believe there's something here bordering on a perfect hybrid of a robust game system with the depth of Rick Priestley's creation and the simplicity and ease of play brought by 8th edition 40k. Very exciting, my mechadendrites are twitching.

01010000 01100101 01110010 01100110 01100101 01100011 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 00100000 00101101 00100000 01100011 01101111 01100100 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100011 01101000 01100001 01101110 01100111 01100101 01110011 00101110 00100000 01001110 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01110011 01110100 01101111 01110000 01110011 00100000 01101101 01101111 01110110 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101110 00100000 01000011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01100011 01101000 01100001 01110011 01100101 00111011 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 01101110 01101111 01110100 00100000 01100011 01100001 01110100 01100011 01101000 00101110 
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 Magos Ulbrex wrote:
There's some good work here, this is precisely the core rule shell I was looking for to be the foundation for my Codex restructuring project. Some issues as well though, both balance and design related, and the formatting and templating is much too fast and loose for my personal liking.

If you don't mind I'm going to have a pass at rewriting this system myself, cleaning it up with a more professional looking document and adjusting some of the rules. When I'm finished I'll post it here for critique and we can discuss the changes I've made and what you think of them.

I believe there's something here bordering on a perfect hybrid of a robust game system with the depth of Rick Priestley's creation and the simplicity and ease of play brought by 8th edition 40k. Very exciting, my mechadendrites are twitching.


Happy to have someone take a crack at it and always glad to discuss rules. I honestly believe this is the best version of the game.

   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




@Magos Ulbrex

Excellent. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






How many pin markers are you guys finding is a good amount for your 40k sized games?

   
 
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