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JinxDragon wrote: Still can't target them with Flamers once they get locked into Close Combat, but they might stop the enemy from getting there in the first place....
Wraithguard can fall back and shoot... With SfD they can do it outside of the movement phase, even. There's no reason to stay bound up in CC.
As far as the flyers goes, with the maneuverability from wings of khaine they should be able to exercise control over what the nearest unit is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/27 18:11:36
Froth at the top, dregs at the bottom, but the middle - excellent
Happy face!
I still vote for the Flyer solution, but that is a bias as the image of air-dropping dropping a Dreadnought right on your opponent's war-leader is so very appealing right now.
Just... it is now a Heavy Flamer wielding Dread!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/27 23:37:44
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
This is what happens when you leave Cheese in the cupboard. Power games can smell it.
CULEXUS ASSASSIN - 85 points
and only takes 120 shots with bolters to kill and maybe a dreadnought cost more but they come in at 108 shots to kill.
I have a feeling you are get a good deal here even if there were not exploiting the character rule which would make me rage quit.
Seriously the only valid targets are characters so you can not shoot and if you can shoot has to be the cheese.
I have not seen something this broken since daemon princes in the good old days.
If you're playing Sisters you can bring Immolaters and just laugh your pants off at assassin lists.
Or, Tau, and bring Y'Varha and commander spam with drones.
Or, Daemons, a lot of your stuff is characters and you'll swamp anything in Brimstones.
It's not unbeatable. The character rules are obscene though.
The Culexus specifically, only being hit on 6's, is pretty absurd. It's a hard counter to many armies, like mine, Grey Knights.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
The list you're referring to was highlighted on BoLS this week. Apparently, it was very difficult to defeat. The key would be either to make Assassins unique like they used to be, or remove <Character> from Assassins.
Imho a good fix for this would be to make it so characters aren't a "qualifying closest target"... so that only non character units can prevent firing at a more distant character
Froth at the top, dregs at the bottom, but the middle - excellent
Audustum wrote: Or, you know, you adjust your TAC list to handle these. Just because something breaks the meta doesn't mean it's OP. Give the neta time to breathe.
This might be true if the list wasn't a blatant exploit of the character-targeting rule mechanic. Generally, those require rule-fixing, not meta-evolution.
WH40K Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
DT:70+S++G+M-B-I--Pw40K90-D++A++/eWD?R++T(D)DM+
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znelson wrote: Imho a good fix for this would be to make it so characters aren't a "qualifying closest target"... so that only non character units can prevent firing at a more distant character
I agree with this.
While some armies can address the assassins, others simply cannot. And that's not because of people being bad, or needing to get good, it's just a list that some armies have no counters to, in a viable tournament list.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I know it should be in proposed rules but:
If a Model with the Character Keyword is with in X (2-4) inch from a Friendly non-Character Model it may only be targeted if it is the closest Unit and/or within 1 inch of the attacker.
This would also eliminate a situation I keep think on as ridiculous:
Character - 12 inches - Two Units in Combat - 24 inches - Long Range Shooter
I don't know why someone armed with long range weaponry would refuse to take a shot at the lone Warlord walking along the battlements, simply because there is a little tiff going on in the middle of the field between them.
Can't be because he is afraid to hit his own men, had that been a lowly private on the battlement he could make that shot no problem....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/28 07:14:26
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
Wasn't there a huge tournament the other day where this happened? His assassins slowly murdered the entire armies while the main hqs mowed down the rest?
Edit: ah, i see someone posted it. People here don't understand how broken it was. They all act like they could have dealt with it, yet some of the biggest tournament players couldn't. The assassins are cheap for only 90pts, they ignore invulnerable saves, -3 ap, -2 to hit when in cover (some I think you need a 6 to hit them and potentially d6 damage with a 72" weapon. This with other hq bonuses made the army downright broken. Sure with some trial and error you can probably beat it but it woukd take way more effort than it's worth and wouldn't be a fun game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/28 08:41:25
Everything hits on 2s. Booby G lets you re roll 1s. Cause assassins are imperium.
I got the solution guys. Electro priests. 20 man blobs of priests. Some fulgurite some corps. Will lose to everything else. But they might win this battle.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also wouldn't any list with Sm libby just use null zone and watch the assassins crumble?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/28 14:01:51
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on the other hand Nobz they decided it was in the best interest of ork society that they "Go Green" as such they specifically modified their warbikes to not make giant smoke, dust, grit, clouds. Instead they are all about driving with clean air, one might say their bikes Gak out rainbows.
lolman1c wrote: Wasn't there a huge tournament the other day where this happened? His assassins slowly murdered the entire armies while the main hqs mowed down the rest?
Edit: ah, i see someone posted it. People here don't understand how broken it was. They all act like they could have dealt with it, yet some of the biggest tournament players couldn't. The assassins are cheap for only 90pts, they ignore invulnerable saves, -3 ap, -2 to hit when in cover (some I think you need a 6 to hit them and potentially d6 damage with a 72" weapon. This with other hq bonuses made the army downright broken. Sure with some trial and error you can probably beat it but it woukd take way more effort than it's worth and wouldn't be a fun game.
This is what happens when the conversation gets split over two threads.
It's not that this list is ZOMG SUPER OP and no top player could handle it. It's that when GW fixed flyers the law of unintended consequences kicked in and they promoted the heck out of Guilliman Parking Lots and gunlines. This list rose specifically to BREAK that meta. So of course it worked. Doesn't mean it's unbeatable; it was designed to break a certain meta and succeeded. Those same top players will retool their lists and deal with it next time around.
Audustum wrote: Or, you know, you adjust your TAC list to handle these. Just because something breaks the meta doesn't mean it's OP. Give the neta time to breathe.
This might be true if the list wasn't a blatant exploit of the character-targeting rule mechanic. Generally, those require rule-fixing, not meta-evolution.
It's not an exploit. It's using the RAW to win. In a creative way I'll add. We want to encourage that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/28 14:21:17
Audustum wrote: It's not an exploit. It's using the RAW to win. In a creative way I'll add. We want to encourage that.
So was the Blood Angel Stormraven list. GW decided to put a stop to that.
Sure, but that doesn't make it an exploit.
That's also part of why I argue against GW taking action now. The rise of this list was an unintended consequences of the flyer nerf. Wanna guess what comes next? Give the scene room to breathe and then make an intelligent change.
Audustum wrote: It's not an exploit. It's using the RAW to win. In a creative way I'll add. We want to encourage that.
So was the Blood Angel Stormraven list. GW decided to put a stop to that.
Sure, but that doesn't make it an exploit.
That's also part of why I argue against GW taking action now. The rise of this list was an unintended consequences of the flyer nerf. Wanna guess what comes next? Give the scene room to breathe and then make an intelligent change.
I think your rationale is sound. If gun lines and Girly-man parking lots can't deal with the assassin spam, that's fine. They'll need to change how they compose their lists. I think putting up with assassin spam is a small price to pay for forcing the field to diversify their composition.
Froth at the top, dregs at the bottom, but the middle - excellent
Audustum wrote: Or, you know, you adjust your TAC list to handle these. Just because something breaks the meta doesn't mean it's OP. Give the neta time to breathe.
This might be true if the list wasn't a blatant exploit of the character-targeting rule mechanic. Generally, those require rule-fixing, not meta-evolution.
It's not an exploit. It's using the RAW to win. In a creative way I'll add. We want to encourage that.
I disagree, it is an exploit.
When you take advantage of a broken rule mechanic to have a significant advantage is the strictest definition of exploiting the rules.
RAW has exploits too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/28 19:15:23
vaurapung wrote: My list was 3 wave serpents 3 wrailords 2 wraithgaurd 1 wraithblade 3 walkers. I spread 50 damage to all his models because different models were always closest and only killed 4 models 3 of which from my wrairhlords assaults.
The hard counter option is doable but then what will you do for your other 2 games in a tournament.
As for the list how can you add the assassins to a vangauard list because they have no hq options.
Heres a pict of the models since he left them here. Theres 19 assassins here, i remeber he only had 2 snipers of the four here
dude. You play eldar.
Get dark reapers into that list... they always hit on 3+ and deal 2D per wound, they will wreck characters.
You should use D-scythes in wave serpents on the wraithguard(auto hit, also, opponent needs to be out of 8" or he dies charging)
Get Hemlock Fighters, fast, autohit
These 3 units are heavy counters, but they also serve well in any eldar list, as they are probably the strongest units in our Index right now. No reason not to use them (wraithguard are sometimes harder to justify because cost/value, but Hemlocks and Reapers are no brainers, always)
Also, he has like 20 drops. You will always have first turn. Half of his army will deep strike, but thats ~10 characters you can kill early. It is important to bubble wrap reapers and alike with guardians or whatever, so he cannot deep strike as many assassins close to your valuable units.
Also, Some cheap jetbike units and maybe Warp Spiders for moving around and hitting models you otherwise wouldn't be shooting at.
I think GW will end up introducing a 1 per army limit on assassins if this really starts to screw things up everywhere. Also keep in mind this was pre-codex, so Bobby G's Warlord trait was valid at the time, but that's not important.
So what the imperium need in answer is cheap units with no bs who can proceed to fire hundreds of Lasgun shots. I shall call this mythic unit the conscript.
Too many models for it to table
And laz guns going from 5+ to 6+ isn't a big reduction
It's a nice meta list to cane elite marines but my guard infantry will eat it all day.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/28 23:26:21
I still like the idea of 3 land speeders with dual heavy flamers. For 342 points you get a squad that can deal out 6d6 wounds, auto hitting, wounding on 3's, and only having the 4++ save to protect yourself. You should be able to kill 2 assassins a turn easy, with little to do back. And it's not like those speeders would not be useful against anything else, they would wipe the floor with genestealers, guard, cultists, pretty much anything they get near. And they are fast enough to get there easy.
BaconCatBug wrote: It's a major tournament winner, by definition that makes it a good list. Could it be better and more optimised? Probably, but it's still good.
Not really, it went 4-1 and won due to how the tournament was scored. It has no answer to some of the other tournament winning lists. Its one of those oddity lists that can pop up here and there (like the Tyranid Lictor/Mawloc list in 7th) and win, mostly due to player skill and not a list.
This is why I sorta wish they went back to having some minimal fluff restrictions on list building. Or 1-2 faction specific detachments in each codex with bonus CPs to reward fluffier? Take the Assassins, there's 0 thematic reason you'd have more than 1-2 present. Call it limit of 3 cause GW seems to like blocks of size 3. It's easier to say, 'ignore list restrictions for this story/casual game' than it is to create balanced restrictions on the fly for a tourney. Why have weaknesses inherent in each army if you can ally or take troopless detachments around it entirely?
The targeting character rules are weird regarding CC in the way too, obviously. But I assume that was done to reduce cases where a char+their squad charge in to combat and the squad makes it while the char doesn't. He'd get blasted without rule protection.
bort wrote: This is why I sorta wish they went back to having some minimal fluff restrictions on list building. Or 1-2 faction specific detachments in each codex with bonus CPs to reward fluffier? Take the Assassins, there's 0 thematic reason you'd have more than 1-2 present.
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but there is an explicit fluff justification. They are called an Execution Force and one was used to try and assassinate Horus.
I am very much against 'fluffy' limitations in Matched Play, the limitation should be put into Matched Play because they want to restrict the combination... no justification needed.
Narrative Play is unrestricted so we can create fluffy limitations and apply them to the game instead of Hard Cold Rules as... Sort-of-Written-Intended-hybrid this year.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/29 02:23:49
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
bort wrote: This is why I sorta wish they went back to having some minimal fluff restrictions on list building. Or 1-2 faction specific detachments in each codex with bonus CPs to reward fluffier? Take the Assassins, there's 0 thematic reason you'd have more than 1-2 present.
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but there is an explicit fluff justification. They are called an Execution Force and one was used to try and assassinate Horus.
Ok, fair enough. But it doesn't sound common enough to need support in matched play as well as story.
Im not suggesting wanting hard limits on unit types just to match some random fluff, but have some reasonable army limits for balance that are backed up by fluff. Not having 15 lone operatives for example. Or how in older editions you always needed some troop units, troops being the fluff backbone of the army in question. Now, so many lists are pure vanguard/spearhead/etc. GWs plan to allow more army options makes specialist spam so much easier.
Death Guard 5100 pts.
Daemons 3000 pts.
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