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Assassins character spam, targeting a character when your opponents whole list is only character.

The character rule says you can only target a character if he is the closet model for all purposes.

What if the closest character is in combat... the current problem.

This is a big loophole in the rulebook and needs official ratification unless im missing something.

Designer's Commentary, fifth question on the second page.

Wow, this needs fixed big time. The purpuse of the character rule is to show that infantry will try to protect their leaders or as gw says in the rules you cant tell the character apart from the masses of infantry.

Well this guy has brought the navy seals of 40k. 17 characters with 5+ wounds as one man units with 2 dreadnaughts as characters.

How do you build a list for a 3 round tournament knowing this list will be one of them.

By shooting each character 1 at a time.

19 models vs an entire enemy army. They will not put out enough damage to do much to your army, and antitank weapons will work just as well on them. Stay out of combat and/or kite the ones that you want in combat.

Also it is closest character to the firing unit, not just any unit. Meaning a given shooting phase can see 3 or more characters targetable; especially if you maneuver.

You fight it and try that, weve tried cracking this list 6 times now and no one can touch it.

The character rule which gw backed up forces you to shoot the closest model even if its in combat then you cant shoot at all.

He puts three models up front so turn one you have to hit on 6s against models with 4++ saves and 5 wounds then after turn one and he starts deep striking infantry 1 model units your fire and assaults are forced tonspread i dealt over 50 wounds in 3 turns and was tabled but only killed 4 of his models, my friend with nids done over 60 wounds and only killed 5 models.

Has no one else faced this power house list.

Wait, how is he making 6+ to hit? And missile launchers / Las Cannon Dev squads (or their equ) should be able to kill a single charecter a turn.

4 missiles, 3+ to hit, say 3 hits, 2+ to wound, say 2 wounds with the benefit of the doubt, with 2d6 damage should kill a chr easy. Make them las equ to garuntee death. Add all the other shooting and as long as you maneuver your guys to be sure to kill a target completely before having to move on it should be fine. Even if half your army hits target a, then half hits target b, if you build for heavy vehicle you would still be OK. And if you fought swarms that's where missile would rock. Frag for the win. If their hq is on a bike the Las Cannon would make little difference vs missile, and missile has the option of being useful vs normal armies as well.

Space wolves is what I would take. Long fangs with missiles. Wolf guard on bikes with storm bolters and storm shields. If 5 wolf guard don't kill a chr with 40 bolter shots + a charge if needed, and 5 missiles firing krak can't kill the next, the there is an issue. Finally use psychers. Smite the grot out of them, be cheap and grab astropaths since they like playing cheap. Do some mortal wounds to make whatever an easier target for the bolters and keep moving forwards. The only thing is you have to make sure what ever you hit dies asap. If you smite, then shoot, then assault, and it's still not dead then yeah, your in deep.


BTW as a fluffy player (I prefer to make fun lists that have a theme even if they are a losing list, on the one hand my wife has won against my space Marines 4 times to 1, tyrnaid vs sm, on the other my wife plays me and I always have fun, even losing because I love this game so much so really I don't care) if someone in my gaming group was interested in winning over having fun then I would go full slaneesh on them and just pound them into the ground. Done it before , willing to do it again if needed. It's not about always wining with the cheese list. And if your making everyone else not enjoy the game then you need to be put in your place. Hit him with a counter all charecters list or something to make them realize this isn't cool. If no one else in your group can do it, it's up to you. Good luck!

Vindicares in cover are -2 to hit and Culexus make every attack made against them WS/BS 6+. It's pretty rough with the way character rules are written.

How does he make 3 vangaurd detatchments out of it. We know what he says and we look at the list but its not in front of me now. He has two chaplin dreadnaughts, celestine with 17 assassins.

Hmm thats tough. Imperial Fists, scout snipers, your own vindicares would be my first thoughts for his vindicare.

Culexus assassins are simply broken. I am sorry, you can't hit me unless I am closest, and if you can you have to hit me on a 6, and by the way you can't get me with psychic powers at all, and I have an invulnerable 4+ save? Who let this grot turd get through play testing and felt it was balanced? I own one of these guys and won't run it, it's simply broken.

What army are you playing? I don't want to say "biovors" and just spore mine the white off of them if your not playing tyrnaid for example.

Space marine whise, I don't know. Without going full chr yourself which would be a lame option, maybe pure spam? Numbers are the only thing I see hurting that thing, so assault squads with bolt pistols and Chain swords that's it, sternguard vets with just their special issue bolters in a rhino to get close. Maybe just take 10 man tactical marines with the ultramarine traite rush forward get into rabid fire range , then every turn after when the enemy charges fall back and rapid fire again. With a few captains for rerolls it may work.

Maybe also reserve terminators? I have had a lot of luck with terms teleporting in, storm bolter rapid fire at target A at 12 inches, then charging target b at 9 inches with my Chain Fists to just make them suffer. When you deal with invulnerable saves best option I find is mortal wound or numbers, those one shot high dmg weapons are not worth it. You need numbers.

I can't say how many points and such all those assassins take up, but assassins are all elites and vaguard lets you take up to 6 each for the low cost of 1 HQ per. However that's 3 different detachments just to make that list.

Kommissar Kel,
Independent Operative is a Ork-loved female dog....

The problem, as I understand it, is the fact this list will be taken to a 3 round Tourny where I guess terrain will be less dense then I prefer. That is not much time and opportunity to create firing lines, even if there wasn't a dozen Close Combat specific Model sitting as close as 4 Inches away from your Units at the end of the opponents first Turn. I even know the Model I would so use for that task, for even if it can not make the 9 inch Charge it has a nice 'I'm a ghooost, you can't hit me' Special Rule affects Shooting attacks as well as Melee. If my purpose was to tie a Shooting Army for only 3 turns, well I can choose the most visible place to Deep-Strike 9 these things and get quite a few into the protection of Close Combat themselves. As long as your Units have to dedicate themselves to cleaning out your shooting lanes before they can fire, it is three turns of them not being able to clear objectives of even a single Model Unit leaning back against the pole in plain view of the las-cannons on your side of the map.

Now, I am not saying that you are not correct in saying it can be handled... I have just seen far to many people hand out 'position your Models to shoot better' in situations where the opponent has the final say on the Models that matter.

As this is a list built to exploit one aspect of the game, and thus is dedicated heavily towards that aspect, all we need to do is use a tiny bit of it's hard counter. The hard counter for an Army that requires precise positioning, such as one trying to manipulate targeting mechanics, is maneuverability. Models in a Transport don't have to worry about the fact they have to shoot the closest Character if they roll past the tar-pit to sit on the opponent's objectives. Watch your opponents face when you get a few decent Units on their flag using Aircraft, and he finds out that foot-slogging, one Model Units, are not actually good at holding Objectives....


Ps:
Wow, in the time it took to write, edit and clean up that post... and talk to a person here vaguely... the problem was explained in two quick sentences over two posts!
Damn, I am slow in my old age.

PPS:
Do not show him the actual Independent Operative rule... At the end of any of your Movement phases...
He doesn't have to wait till Turn Two to bring those in, if he gets to go First then you are really screwed.

You can overcome something like this a couple of ways.

If you can hit on 3+ you'll tear through the characters. The 6+ to hit is the only time saving his assassin's.

1) positioning/DS - this will let you pick different targets
2) Flamers (or anything else that auto-hit) D-Scythes are especially recommended.
3) Flyers - this is really a sub heading of #1 but they'll do an especially good job of circumventing his targeting shenanigans.
4) Dark Reapers

Why don't you Fall Back with whatever is in contact with the closest Culexus, then roll for 6s until it dies? Rinse and repeat. Lots of shots, make him take saves.

My list was 3 wave serpents 3 wrailords 2 wraithgaurd 1 wraithblade 3 walkers. I spread 50 damage to all his models because different models were always closest and only killed 4 models 3 of which from my wrairhlords assaults.

The hard counter option is doable but then what will you do for your other 2 games in a tournament.

As for the list how can you add the assassins to a vangauard list because they have no hq options.

Heres a pict of the models since he left them here. Theres 19 assassins here, i remeber he only had 2 snipers of the four here

Azuza001 summed it up well when they said the Culexus felt so cheap they refused to add one to their list, let alone run multiple.

This player is a power gamer and and really the only one of us who goes to bigger tournaments. We expect to see cheese in his list (like well aged swiss). But my biggest issue with this list is that it abuses a mechanic that it shouldnt be able to. But gw is sticking to their guns that characters have to be the closest model to shoot it (even when its not an eligible target) every model is a character. The assassins player will always be able to control the game through combat and deep strike forcing wounds to spread.

Flamers autohit. Land speeders and whirlwind autohit with the telemetry statagem. Chaos bloatdrone autohits. I'm pretty sure there are more units in the game which can autohit to take out those culexus.

EDIT : 30 ork boyz with da jump will tear the culexus apart in CC. Yes, they do hit on 6s, but 120 attacks will do 20 hits. A 4+ invuln sv will fail 10, he dies.

Graugh.

Counter cheese with WYSIWYG those ain't Chaplain dreads.

If you're playing Eldar, surely you have the manoeuvrability to jet around and choose who your closest target is?

Dire Avengers could be a nice counter-charge unit, as they Overwatch on 5+ "regardless of modifiers". Sheer number of shots from a large unit of them could shred a charging Assassin.

Ain't gonna be easy but there are ways!

Necron overlord buffs 10 immortals +1 BS with tesla carbines, 20 shots at 24", 5s and 6s will be three hits each. Thats 19 hits. At 12" its 40 shots, and 39 hits.

I just found out they were not chaplin dreadnaughts, they had the right gun and i would know otherwise what they look like. Plus they are not the ones killing stuff (i also play half my warlocks with gaurdians that now have a spear and some other bits added, its gw plastic)

As for reference it would take 240 wounds before saves to kill his army, down side to the the ork blob or blob shooting is that closest character because he is all characters is on a by model not unit basis. You will need to measure every models range to see how it shots at therefore spilitting all your fire and most of the assasins have great anti infantry guns.

The most effevlctive hard counter will be spacewolves wulfen w/ blood claws in 5 man groups so as to all be able to charge seperate models.

Once again that list will be weak against most other list in a tournament.

Well this thread did answer my question of do characters get to cheat when ran in superfluous amounts, and gw said its ok. I do plan on starting a tactics thread to get more eyes on the list though.

There is no restriction to attack characters in CC. The orc mob da jumps 9" from a culexus, charge him, rerolls the charge roll, or one dice with the reroll stratagem, if necessary, and kills him in CC.

vaurapung wrote:
My list was 3 wave serpents 3 wrailords 2 wraithgaurd 1 wraithblade 3 walkers. I spread 50 damage to all his models because different models were always closest and only killed 4 models 3 of which from my wrairhlords assaults.

The hard counter option is doable but then what will you do for your other 2 games in a tournament.

As for the list how can you add the assassins to a vangauard list because they have no hq options.

Heres a pict of the models since he left them here. Theres 19 assassins here, i remeber he only had 2 snipers of the four here

dude. You play eldar.

Get dark reapers into that list... they always hit on 3+ and deal 2D per wound, they will wreck characters.
You should use D-scythes in wave serpents on the wraithguard(auto hit, also, opponent needs to be out of 8" or he dies charging)
Get Hemlock Fighters, fast, autohit

These 3 units are heavy counters, but they also serve well in any eldar list, as they are probably the strongest units in our Index right now. No reason not to use them (wraithguard are sometimes harder to justify because cost/value, but Hemlocks and Reapers are no brainers, always)

Also, he has like 20 drops. You will always have first turn. Half of his army will deep strike, but thats ~10 characters you can kill early. It is important to bubble wrap reapers and alike with guardians or whatever, so he cannot deep strike as many assassins close to your valuable units.

Kremling wrote:
Also, he has like 20 drops. You will always have first turn.

Currently accepted rules at most tournaments is that whomever finished deploying first gets +1 to a roll-off for going first, so going first isn't guaranteed, just favoured.

First off, your friend is a tourney-goer, so if your problem is that you're not having fun, just ask him not to take tournament-style lists. Chances are your friend will change their list to not be tourney-level. If your problem is that you want to beat him tourney-level list, then you need to accept that his list, while very strong and abusing the mechanics, is totally legal. In that case, look online for other really powerful lists. If you want to play him on his footing, request that you play your models counts-as so you can have a good game against him, and it'll be good practice for him for tournaments. Play a mirror-copy of his list, because it IS likely he'll face something that powerful at high-end tourneys.

For reference, here is the "unbeatable" list.

I really don't see a way to get around it other than just rushing up and trying to assault them.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/08/40k-the-unstoppable-list-wgc2017.html

I think GW will end up introducing a 1 per army limit on assassins if this really starts to screw things up everywhere. Also keep in mind this was pre-codex, so Bobby G's Warlord trait was valid at the time, but that's not important.

Multiple Large, reletively maneuverable, shooty units(for weight of fire against the culexus and because at ranged very few of the characters can kill more tha 1 model per turn).

Dakka-tanks: the more big guns and high rof the better. Again you want to bring weight of fire and high-damage.

For your characters you want reroll buffs.

Keep the assassins out of melee and you will be fairly safe. Snipers on your side will do well to ignore the culexus issues(it is only a 6+ ws/bs for targeting the culexus itself).

If an assassin is near enough to try for charging you charge it first; it cannot do much damage in overwatch and you get to strike first(remember those big units will be getting more attacks again).

Mass dark reapers should be able to shred this list fairly quickly, but they'd likely get shredded themselves by the eversors if left in the open to be charged

Oh, I didn't consider this before. Double heavy flamer land speeders. They would reck those assassins.

You need to scrap the Wraithlords and work an Air Wing of 3 Hemlocks into your list.

You will beat but only this list, but many others with it. Also, run this as Ynnari, and stick Yvraine with a squad of the D-Scythe guard.

Still can't target them with Flamers once they get locked into Close Combat, but they might stop the enemy from getting there in the first place....


However, for those telling you to demand your opponent follow 'What you See is what you get' before you play them; I disagree. That would just be pointing to a Rule, a Rule that does NOT exist, as an excuse to deny your opponent a game and nothing more. In casual games, just be honest as to why you do not want to play that List. One does not need to make an excuse, if they want to actually play the game they will change their lists. It also could run afoul of the fact this List is likely to be approved for this little 3 round game being played, and simply refusing to play your opponent because you don't like his approved list is just going to get you disqualified.