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I'm just sitting back and giggling happily at a multi-edition problem reoccurring again....

From the Drop Pod datasheet on page 181 of Codex Space Marines (emphasis added):

Drop Pod Assault: During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it, in orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases this model can perform a drop pod assault – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models. Any models embarked inside must immediately disembark, but they must be set up more than 9" away from any enemy models. Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain.

The underlined shows that 'Drop Pod Assault' has more in common with Reinforcements that it does with Transports.

1. Never said that. Please quote my post where I said that.
2. If no one is contesting a unit being placed in RESERVE and arriving as a REINFORCEMENT (pg 215), how does DISEMBARKING eliminate a unit coming from reserve? Disembarking has no rules that conflict with RESERVES that it has to be one or the other.
3. Incorrect. Page 215 is clear, “units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements.” (Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks. )

 Arkaine wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

As for your claims...

1) There is no such thing as reserves. That is a defunct state now as there are multiple ways to arrive on the battlefield NOT from reserves. We now use the term Reinforcements.
2) No one is contesting that the unit was placed in your concept of "reserves". They are contesting that Disembarking means they are arriving from it.
3) You're the one that made the assumption that any unit not on the board is arriving as reinforcements. Units embarked are not on the board, per the transport rules themselves.

 Ghaz wrote:
From the Drop Pod datasheet on page 181 of Codex Space Marines (emphasis added):

Drop Pod Assault: During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it, in orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases this model can perform a drop pod assault – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models. Any models embarked inside must immediately disembark, but they must be set up more than 9" away from any enemy models. Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain.

The underlined shows that 'Drop Pod Assault' has more in common with Reinforcements that it does with Transports.

Actually, it shows that the Drop Pod arrives as reinforcements. The models within have a specific additional restriction not unlike reinforcements but so do the Infiltration stratagems. Exceptions to every rule.

Furthermore, if they didn't follow transport rules then you could disembark them anywhere you pleased so long as it was 9" away from enemy models. There is no specified limit of how far the Space Marines can be deployed from the transport. That falls within the Disembarking rules... ergo they are Disembarking. Guess what the rules for Disembarking say?

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn.

That's quite different from the Reinforcements rules that forbid movement. I'd say they have more in common with Disembarking.

Reinforcement rules do not restrict placement. Each unit has a rule that uses reinforcement and adds its own restriction. As in the previous post "Drop Pod Assault" or "High Orbit", etc. In this case Drop pods Assault overrides the movement restriction, but places a limit as how far they can be from an enemy unit. DPA does not say a unit is treated as not coming from reserves.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

That's quite different from the Reinforcements rules that forbid movement. I'd say they have more in common with Disembarking.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From the Drop Pod datasheet on page 181 of Codex Space Marines (emphasis added):

Drop Pod Assault: During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it, in orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases this model can perform a drop pod assault – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models. Any models embarked inside must immediately disembark, but they must be set up more than 9" away from any enemy models. Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain.

The underlined shows that 'Drop Pod Assault' has more in common with Reinforcements that it does with Transports.

Actually, it shows that the Drop Pod arrives as reinforcements. The models within have a specific additional restriction not unlike reinforcements but so do the Infiltration stratagems. Exceptions to every rule.

Furthermore, if they didn't follow transport rules then you could disembark them anywhere you pleased so long as it was 9" away from enemy models. There is no specified limit of how far the Space Marines can be deployed from the transport. That falls within the Disembarking rules... ergo they are Disembarking. Guess what the rules for Disembarking say?

Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn.

That's quite different from the Reinforcements rules that forbid movement. I'd say they have more in common with Disembarking.

The unit is set up in orbit.

The unit disembarks from the drop pod at the end of the Movement phase.

The unit when it disembarks must be more than 9" away from any enemy models.

I stand by my statement. 'Drop Pod Assault' has more in common with Reinforcements than it does a Transport.

 thejughead wrote:
1. Never said that. Please quote my post where I said that.

Certainly. All instances where you refer to something being in reserves:

 thejughead wrote:
Embarking and Disembarking rules do not “turn off” a unit being placed into reserves.

 thejughead wrote:
Page 215 clearly defines anything not on board as being in reserves and arriving as reinforcements.

 thejughead wrote:
Anything that is placed on the table from reserves is reinforcements whether or not they are being transported.

 thejughead wrote:
2. If no one is contesting a unit being placed in RESERVE and arriving as a REINFORCEMENT (pg 215), how does DISEMBARKING eliminate a unit coming from reserve? Disembarking has no rules that conflict with RESERVES that it has to be one or the other.

Units arrive as reinforcement from places beyond simply "reserves". Disembarking does not eliminate a unit coming from "reserve" because it doesn't have to. Disembarking is done after the unit has already come from "reserve". The stratagem can only be used on units arriving from it. At the time the unit qualified for the stratagem, it was not even on the field, it was still inside the transport. Disembarking does not trigger another state of "arriving as reinforcements". Claiming otherwise makes every Rhino trigger an "arriving as reinforcements" state each time the unit leaves because per the transport rules the units embarked are "not on the board" and qualify under your criteria. In short, I'm using your own ideas to show you the contradiction.

 thejughead wrote:
3. Incorrect. Page 215 is clear, “units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements.” (Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks. )

Incorrect. Pg 177 states the same thing with additional rules for what the effect of arriving from reinforcements actually has in terms of game mechanics. Notice how the thing you keep citing does not forbid movement while the Reinforcements rule does. I feel that you are holding fast to your citation because you think I'm not reading it or something. You might want to compare it to pg 177. No one is contesting what it says. You're the one using it to literally say this:

 thejughead wrote:
Page 215 clearly defines anything not on board as being in reserves and arriving as reinforcements.

...which is the exact statement that number 3 was referring to and the one you just called 'Incorrect'. Done contradicting yourself?

The unit is set up in orbit. Counts as coming from reserves(reinforcements).

The unit disembarks from the drop pod at the end of the Movement phase.Counts as coming from reserves(reinforcements).

The unit when it disembarks must be more than 9" away from any enemy models.Counts as coming from reserves(reinforcements).

None of these steps counters or overrides the fact that it came from reserves.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:


That's quite different from the Reinforcements rules that forbid movement. I'd say they have more in common with Disembarking.

The unit is set up in orbit.

The unit disembarks from the drop pod at the end of the Movement phase.

The unit when it disembarks must be more than 9" away from any enemy models.

I stand by my statement. 'Drop Pod Assault' has more in common with Reinforcements than it does a Transport.

 thejughead wrote:
Reinforcement rules do not restrict placement. Each unit has a rule that uses reinforcement and adds its own restriction. As in the previous post "Drop Pod Assault" or "High Orbit", etc. In this case Drop pods Assault overrides the movement restriction, but places a limit as how far they can be from an enemy unit. DPA does not say a unit is treated as not coming from reserves.

Please quote where I claim it did? No one is claiming DPA does not say a unit is not coming from "reserves". The Drop Pod is most certainly arriving as reinforcements. However, that doesn't matter with how the timing structure of the sequence works. You are entitled to shoot the Drop Pod but not the unit. The unit has not disembarked yet when it qualifies and does not count any longer when it does.

Please actually read the Stratagem we are discussing. Nowhere does it give you permission to fire upon a unit simply because it came from "reserves" this turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thejughead wrote:
The unit is set up in orbit. Counts as coming from reserves(reinforcements).
The unit disembarks from the drop pod at the end of the Movement phase.Counts as coming from reserves(reinforcements).
The unit when it disembarks must be more than 9" away from any enemy models.Counts as coming from reserves(reinforcements).
None of these steps counters or overrides the fact that it came from reserves.

None of them needed to.

The DROP POD is set up in orbit.
The DROP POD disembarks a unit after it ARRIVED that turn.
The Embarked Unit setting up 9" away is part of the DROP POD's specific ability.
The Stratagem may only target units actually arriving from reinforcements.

None of these steps overrides the fact it came from "reserves". Because they don't need to.
None of the wording in the Stratagem itself grants permission to fire upon targets that came from "reserves" this turn.
You're failing to understand where the dilemma is and acting like I'm saying Drop Pods aren't reinforcements.

"Units arrive as reinforcement from places beyond simply "reserves"." Care to quote this from the BRB? Or do you have the "Special BRB".

Coming from reserves(reinforcements) is a state for the unit not a phase. It either is or it isn't.

 thejughead wrote:
"Units arrive as reinforcement from places beyond simply "reserves"." Care to quote this from the BRB? Or do you have the "Special BRB".

Coming from reserves(reinforcements) is a state for the unit not a phase. It either is or it isn't.

As previously quoted, Infiltration and Summoning do not use such "reserves" which is why I keep saying to stop using that term. Summoned units are not "in reserves" yet still count as reinforcements. Infiltration units are not "in reserves", they're in concealment and arrive before the turn even begins, ignoring the Reinforcements rules as a result. If you get used to thinking of things as arriving solely from reserves then you will never understand Reinforcements as a concept.

Care to quote something otherwise? Like say from the Chaos Codex or the Daemonic Ritual rule that indicates the daemons must somehow be in reserves first?

“Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.

This is from the page that details the Missions for the game. Do we just ignore it so you can win your argument? Anything not on the board and arriving from anywhere else be it summoning, reserves, High Orbit, etc. count as reinforcement. Page 177 is a general rule, this is a specific rule for mission play. You want to house rule it be my guest.

 Arkaine wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
None of the wording in the Stratagem itself grants permission to fire upon targets that came from "reserves" this turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Point taken, reinforcements is the correct term.

 Arkaine wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
"Units arrive as reinforcement from places beyond simply "reserves"." Care to quote this from the BRB? Or do you have the "Special BRB".

Coming from reserves(reinforcements) is a state for the unit not a phase. It either is or it isn't.

As previously quoted, Infiltration and Summoning do not use such "reserves" which is why I keep saying to stop using that term. Summoned units are not "in reserves" yet still count as reinforcements. Infiltration units are not "in reserves", they're in concealment and arrive before the turn even begins, ignoring the Reinforcements rules as a result. If you get used to thinking of things as arriving solely from reserves then you will never understand Reinforcements as a concept.

Care to quote something otherwise? Like say from the Chaos Codex or the Daemonic Ritual rule that indicates the daemons must somehow be in reserves first?

 thejughead wrote:

“Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.

This is from the page that details the Missions for the game. Do we just ignore it so you can win your argument? Anything not on the board and arriving from anywhere else be it summoning, reserves, High Orbit, etc. count as reinforcement. Page 177 is a general rule, this is a specific rule for mission play. You want to house rule it be my guest.

Pro tip: Pg177 says the same thing as pg215. You are repeatedly failing to understand that I am not ignoring that rule at all.
Reinforcements - Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means.

Plus, ignoring pg177 means we have no idea what "reinforcements" even means since it isn't explained anywhere else. Are you now claiming that the mission play overrides the Reinforcements rule and therefore units that arrive from Reinforcements have no movement restriction? Because I would so love to Deep Strike Terminators onto the battlefield and then move them up 6". Should we ignore these rules so you can STILL lose your argument?

Because that's what will still happen even if we ignored pg177. You will still lose because whether the unit counts as Reinforcements has nothing to do with what why the Stratagem cannot shoot at it. Haven't you been paying attention? I've explained this now several times.

The Stratagem itself is what doesn't have permission to fire at units that arrived from reinforcements this turn. Only ones that are arriving like the Drop Pod itself.

 Arkaine wrote:

The Stratagem itself is what doesn't have permission to fire at units that arrived from reinforcements this turn. Only ones that are arriving like the Drop Pod itself.

The stratagem specifically calls out units arriving from reinforcements within 12" and they can fire on them as if its their shooting phase. The pod and unit count as reinforcements. Your reference to disembarking overruling reinforcements, is invalid. Drop pod assault allows the unit to move, but doesn't take away the fact that it counts as reinforcement.

Maybe you require an FAQ, but its clear to me.

 thejughead wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

The Stratagem itself is what doesn't have permission to fire at units that arrived from reinforcements this turn. Only ones that are arriving like the Drop Pod itself.

The stratagem specifically calls out units arriving from reinforcements within 12" and they can fire on them as if its their shooting phase. The pod and unit count as reinforcements.

No, the stratagem calls out units arriving from reinforcements. The pod is arriving from reinforcements. The unit is disembarking from a unit that arrived from reinforcements. Disembarking is not an action of arriving from reinforcements, the unit was already on the table so to speak.

If you want to claim that a unit is "arriving from reinforcements" when it disembarks a transport then you apply the same rule to all existing transports.

You have one of two choices:

1) Units embarked on a transport inherit the status the transport counts as. In this case, you CANNOT SHOOT DISEMBARKING MARINES because the transport is already on the battlefield when they disembark. It is no longer arriving from reinforcements.

2) Units disembarking a transport always count as arriving as reinforcements. Per the transport rules, embarked units are removed from the battlefield. So disembarking under this version triggers them "arriving as reinforcements" when they are placed back onto the battlefield. Regardless of whether the transport did the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thejughead wrote:
Your reference to disembarking overruling reinforcements, is invalid. Drop pod assault allows the unit to move, but doesn't take away the fact that it counts as reinforcement.

No one made a reference to reinforcements being overruled by disembarking. You're making things up now and failing to understand my platform. The statement was that upon the moment that the unit disembarks, the window for it arriving from reinforcements for the Stratagem to take advantage of has passed. It is no longer arriving from reinforcements, it is now disembarking from a transport that is already on the battlefield. It is a situation where the Stratagem is ineffective.

Disembark does not override the Reinforcement rule. Every TO around the world sees this clear as day. You can try and argue a technicality, but no one will let you do it. Call it RAI if you want but thats the reality.

The statement was that upon the moment that the unit disembarks, the window for it arriving from reinforcements for the Stratagem to take advantage of has passed.

There is no "window" of opportunity where this is passed. If this is lynchpin of your argument then its down right wrong.

 Arkaine wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

The Stratagem itself is what doesn't have permission to fire at units that arrived from reinforcements this turn. Only ones that are arriving like the Drop Pod itself.

The stratagem specifically calls out units arriving from reinforcements within 12" and they can fire on them as if its their shooting phase. The pod and unit count as reinforcements.

No, the stratagem calls out units arriving from reinforcements. The pod is arriving from reinforcements. The unit is disembarking from a unit that arrived from reinforcements. Disembarking is not an action of arriving from reinforcements, the unit was already on the table so to speak.

If you want to claim that a unit is "arriving from reinforcements" when it disembarks a transport then you apply the same rule to all existing transports.

You have one of two choices:

1) Units embarked on a transport inherit the status the transport counts as. In this case, you CANNOT SHOOT DISEMBARKING MARINES because the transport is already on the battlefield when they disembark. It is no longer arriving from reinforcements.

2) Units disembarking a transport always count as arriving as reinforcements. Per the transport rules, embarked units are removed from the battlefield. So disembarking under this version triggers them "arriving as reinforcements" when they are placed back onto the battlefield. Regardless of whether the transport did the same.

 thejughead wrote:
Disembark does not override the Reinforcement rule. Every TO around the world sees this clear as day. You can try and argue a technicality, but no one will let you do it. Call it RAI if you want but thats the reality.

I never claimed Disembark overrides the Reinforcement rule. Once again you're showing a limited understanding of what's being discussed here. It's a timing issue, not a rule overriding another issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I gave you two options to select from. Pick the one that best fits your belief.

Its a static game, there is no timing issue unless you move to another unit. Would you pull this shenanigans on a friend?

 Arkaine wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
Disembark does not override the Reinforcement rule. Every TO around the world sees this clear as day. You can try and argue a technicality, but no one will let you do it. Call it RAI if you want but thats the reality.

I never claimed Disembark overrides the Reinforcement rule. Once again you're showing a limited understanding of what's being discussed here. It's a timing issue, not a rule overriding another issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I gave you two options to select from. Pick the one that best fits your belief.

 thejughead wrote:
Its a static game, there is no timing issue unless you move to another unit. Would you pull this shenanigans on a friend?

And there we have it. Appeal to emotion.

Personally, no, because I don't feel that's what the rule is supposed to do, but I wouldn't dare suggest the other interpretation cannot be correct, because it can.

 thejughead wrote:

The statement was that upon the moment that the unit disembarks, the window for it arriving from reinforcements for the Stratagem to take advantage of has passed.

There is no "window" of opportunity where this is passed. If this is lynchpin of your argument then its down right wrong.

There is always a window of opportunity.

When a stratagem says "At the start of your Movement phase" you may not trigger it halfway through your Movement phase or in your Shooting phase. Your window of opportunity passes the moment you begin moving things in your Movement phase.

This particular stratagem declares its own window of opportunity as well. A Drop Pod is arriving from reinforcements with a payload of marines in it. It can be shot at under the window of opportunity the Stratagem allows. You cannot arbitrarily decide to do so later in the turn even though the unit has still been deployed as reinforcements sometime earlier. There is a definite and measurable opportunity for any stratagem to be used. This particular one loses its effectiveness the moment the Drop Pod is officially in play. After it has arrived. It is at this time that the marines disembark from it and no longer count as "arriving as reinforcements" unless you apply the same restriction to ALL transports. The Drop Pod and marines are both ALREADY IN PLAY and no longer coming from the reinforcement pile when the marines decide to disembark. The rule for drop pods does not say that the marines are setup alongside them. It says they disembark after it touches down, a point of no return when it can no longer be considered "arriving as reinforcements" but has right and well officially arrived.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thejughead wrote:
Its a static game, there is no timing issue unless you move to another unit. Would you pull this shenanigans on a friend?

Timing structures are a thing in all turn-based games. Stratagems all list when they are permitted to be used. When you no longer meet the requirements, the Stratagem can no longer be used. That is what a timing issue means. Yes, friends would have to actually follow the rules of any game we play as well. Card games are well known for timing conflicts and I would expect anyone playing them to follow the structure.

Placing both units on the battlefield is the same act. The controlling player must finish both. Both counts as reinforcements. I'm out.

 Arkaine wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

The statement was that upon the moment that the unit disembarks, the window for it arriving from reinforcements for the Stratagem to take advantage of has passed.

There is no "window" of opportunity where this is passed. If this is lynchpin of your argument then its down right wrong.

There is always a window of opportunity.

When a stratagem says "At the start of your Movement phase" you may not trigger it halfway through your Movement phase or in your Shooting phase. Your window of opportunity passes the moment you begin moving things in your Movement phase.

This particular stratagem declares its own window of opportunity as well. A Drop Pod is arriving from reinforcements with a payload of marines in it. It can be shot at under the window of opportunity the Stratagem allows. You cannot arbitrarily decide to do so later in the turn even though the unit has still been deployed as reinforcements sometime earlier. There is a definite and measurable opportunity for any stratagem to be used. This particular one loses its effectiveness the moment the Drop Pod is officially in play. After it has arrived. It is at this time that the marines disembark from it and no longer count as "arriving as reinforcements" unless you apply the same restriction to ALL transports. The Drop Pod and marines are both ALREADY IN PLAY and no longer coming from the reinforcement pile when the marines decide to disembark. The rule for drop pods does not say that the marines are setup alongside them. It says they disembark after it touches down, a point of no return when it can no longer be considered "arriving as reinforcements" but has right and well officially arrived.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thejughead wrote:
Its a static game, there is no timing issue unless you move to another unit. Would you pull this shenanigans on a friend?

Timing structures are a thing in all turn-based games. Stratagems all list when they are permitted to be used. When you no longer meet the requirements, the Stratagem can no longer be used. That is what a timing issue means. Yes, friends would have to actually follow the rules of any game we play as well. Card games are well known for timing conflicts and I would expect anyone playing them to follow the structure.

 thejughead wrote:
Placing both units on the battlefield is the same act. The controlling player must finish both. Both counts as reinforcements. I'm out.

This is where we disagree. The Drop Pod rules do not say both units are placed at the same time. It says that FIRST the Drop Pod arrives and THEN the unit disembarks. Even if you count both as reinforcements, the marines are not "arriving as reinforcements". When they were doing that, they were still inside the drop pod. Feel free to shoot at the embarked unit. Oh wait, that's not allowed.

The Marines were not deployed during deployment that makes them reinforcements.

It doesn't matter how they arrive, all units in matched play not placed during deployment are reinforcements.

They are counted against the 50% of units that can be put in reinforcements, they are not deployed during deployment and when they arrive they do so by disembarking from another unit that was in reinforcements.

Don't bring the 7th edition reserves rules in, it's not the same.

Units selected for an army before the battle begins are either deployed or reinforcments. There is no raw state of being not deployed and not being reinforcements.

It doesn't matter if they are in a transport or not, they were not deployed and are reinforcements.

blaktoof wrote:
The Marines were not deployed during deployment that makes them reinforcements.

It doesn't matter how they arrive, all units in matched play not placed during deployment are reinforcements.

They are counted against the 50% of units that can be put in reinforcements, they are not deployed during deployment and when they arrive they do so by disembarking from another unit that was in reinforcements.

Don't bring the 7th edition reserves rules in, it's not the same.

Units selected for an army before the battle begins are either deployed or reinforcments. There is no raw state of being not deployed and not being reinforcements.

It doesn't matter if they are in a transport or not, they were not deployed and are reinforcements.

Since you missed the entire thread, no one is claiming they are "not reinforcements". From the beginning of the thread, it's been called out as a sequencing concern. I think just about everyone has so far considered them to be reinforcements when making their case. So you're effectively ranting about things that haven't been claimed.

 Arkaine wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The Marines were not deployed during deployment that makes them reinforcements.

It doesn't matter how they arrive, all units in matched play not placed during deployment are reinforcements.

They are counted against the 50% of units that can be put in reinforcements, they are not deployed during deployment and when they arrive they do so by disembarking from another unit that was in reinforcements.

Don't bring the 7th edition reserves rules in, it's not the same.

Units selected for an army before the battle begins are either deployed or reinforcments. There is no raw state of being not deployed and not being reinforcements.

It doesn't matter if they are in a transport or not, they were not deployed and are reinforcements.

Since you missed the entire thread, no one is claiming they are "not reinforcements". From the beginning of the thread, it's been called out as a sequencing concern. I think just about everyone has so far considered them to be reinforcements when making their case. So you're effectively ranting about things that haven't been claimed.

Then you agree the unit arrived onto the table from reinforcements, good.

blaktoof wrote:
Then you agree the unit arrived onto the table from reinforcements, good.

No one has so far disagreed with that. However, that doesn't mean they can be shot at. The stratagem cannot target units that arrived from reinforcements.

 Arkaine wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Then you agree the unit arrived onto the table from reinforcements, good.

No one has so far disagreed with that. However, that doesn't mean they can be shot at. The stratagem cannot target units that arrived from reinforcements.

"Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up an unit arriving from reinforcements within 12"...

Sure looks like it does.

The unit was reinforcements, it is setup within 12". No problems. Disembark is a non issue because it is not set up until it is disembarked, at which time it is still an unit that arrived from reinforcements.

blaktoof wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Then you agree the unit arrived onto the table from reinforcements, good.

No one has so far disagreed with that. However, that doesn't mean they can be shot at. The stratagem cannot target units that arrived from reinforcements.

"Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up an unit arriving from reinforcements within 12"...

Sure looks like it does.

The unit was reinforcements, it is setup within 12". No problems. Disembark is a non issue because it is not set up until it is disembarked, at which time it is still an unit that arrived from reinforcements.

Nope, read it again. The stratagem may only be used after a unit "sets up a unit arriving as reinforcements". Not on a unit that has already arrived as reinforcements sometime this turn.

The unit is reinforcements but the stratagem does not care about that. It only cares if it's being set up on the field, and only if it is arriving as reinforcements. At the moment the space marines counted as arriving as reinforcements, they were still inside the drop pod. Disembarking is very much an issue because even though it is not setup until it is disembarked it now no longer counts as arriving as reinforcements but as being disembarked from a unit that is legally on the battlefield. It is reinforcements but it is not arriving. It's simply exiting the vehicle that it was in when it was arriving. At the point it disembarks, both the unit and the drop pod have fully arrived and are no longer "arriving as reinforcements". They are still reinforcements, that is not the contention point, and that's why your entire defense falls apart. Because this thread has never been about whether they are reinforcements. It has been about whether they are arriving.

To claim that disembarking is the same as arriving is to apply the same rule to all transport disembarks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
at which time it is still an unit that arrived from reinforcements.

And I must once again stress... the stratagem does not grant permission to fire at a unit that arrived from reinforcements.

the stratagem clearly gives permission to fire at an unit that has setup from reinforcements.

the disembarking unit is clearly setup from reinforcements. Unless you think they are not from reinforcements, or where not setup.

blaktoof wrote:
the stratagem clearly gives permission to fire at an unit that has setup from reinforcements.

False, the stratagem grants permission to fire on a unit that just set up when it is arriving as reinforcements. A disembarking unit did not just set up from reinforcements, it set up from the transport it was in. The transport was already on the battlefield, not in reinforcements. In no way can such a unit be considered arriving from reinforcements.

blaktoof wrote:
the disembarking unit is clearly setup from reinforcements. Unless you think they are not from reinforcements, or where not setup.

Neither actually. The unit is reinforcements. The unit is being setup. The unit is NOT being setup FROM reinforcements. It's being setup as the product of disembarking from a unit that has already entered the playing field. The moment for you to use the stratagem has passed and the marines are no longer a legal target. When they were a legal target, they were still Embarked inside the transport. Which itself makes them not a legal target for shooting attacks.

In short, there is no valid marine unit in play to be shot at when the Stratagem is eligible for use, only a Drop Pod. Feel free to shoot the Drop Pod.

I highly recommend you actually READ the thread since from your first post you've made it clear that you aren't aware what's being discussed. It would help to alleviate any further points that have already been established and countered. You're actually repeating arguments that have been since debunked without providing any new reasons or supporting evidence.