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There is an Ad Mech stratagem at allows you to immediately fire at a unit that just arrived from reserves.

If a drop pod comes in and a unit disembarks from the drop pod, can I fire at the unit? Or, am I only allowed to fire at the drop pod?

That is a very good question. There are reasonable arguments either way.

I personally would say they do, because they weren't on the table at the start of the turn and disembarked from a model that did unambiguously arrive from reserves, and also the whole 9" restriction heavily implies they are reserves.

However, it's just as reasonable to argue that only the drop pod arrived from reserves, the transported unit are just disembarking normally.

It needs a special snowflake ruling from GW, because Manperor knows they won't bother with errata.

I don't play marines, so don't have drop pods, but stratagem says immediately so my opinion is there is no unit disembarked yet when stratagem is activated, only drop pod.

Angra wrote:
I don't play marines, so don't have drop pods, but stratagem says immediately so my opinion is there is no unit disembarked yet when stratagem is activated, only drop pod.

And 'Drop Pod Assault' says the following (emphasis added):

Any models embarked inside must immediately disembark...

Therefore the 'Sequencing' rule would come into play.

 Ghaz wrote:

Angra wrote:
I don't play marines, so don't have drop pods, but stratagem says immediately so my opinion is there is no unit disembarked yet when stratagem is activated, only drop pod.

And 'Drop Pod Assault' says the following (emphasis added):

Any models embarked inside must immediately disembark...

Therefore the 'Sequencing' rule would come into play.

Ahh, then i think you can to shoot disembarked unit's or drop pod when they arrive from reserves.

This is not even a new problem, previous editions also had this 'Embarked Units are Schrodinger cats' situation.
So how has Game Workshop advised us how to play out such situations in the past?

However, I do like what Ghaz has pointed out... sequencing could be used to create a problem here:
When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order.

Is that really an issue? If you can put out enough firepower to destroy the pod, the embarked unit has to roll dice to get out the wrecked vehicle.

Not sure which I'd prefer to be honest. If its a multiwound unit inside the chance to thin them out via '1's is advantageous.

Cheers

Andrew

If the drop pod arrives and the troops within must disembark immediately, they arrive and disembark in the same instance from reserves (and if not they're instantly destroyed), so the answer should be "yes", you can shoot them.

Angra wrote:
I don't play marines, so don't have drop pods, but stratagem says immediately so my opinion is there is no unit disembarked yet when stratagem is activated, only drop pod.

Well, if the disembarking unit is also "arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements" then you would get a second opportunity to activate the stratagem when that unit is set up.

From a tactical point of view, not a problem at all, but it is a 'wonky' way to resolve the situation.

*Face palms suddenly*
It is a Stratagem that I don't know the exact wording of, so what actually prevents the player wanting to shoot directly at the Unit disembarking (assuming a valid target) from simply waiting till said Unit disembarks before using this Rule?
I am highly doubting Sequencing will come into play at all, unless it is to prevent the shooting player from being able to damage two Units in what I was viewing as the 'wonky' outcome....

Reasonably, yes, both pod and unit(s) disembarking should be targettable.

Can someone please quote, or show a picture of, the Stratagem in question?

Pretty clear. Units arriving as reinforcements means both the Pod and troops inside can be shot.

 thejughead wrote:
Pretty clear. Units arriving as reinforcements means both the Pod and troops inside can be shot.

Except as I pointed out in literally the first reply, it's just as valid to state the models disembarking from the drop pod did NOT arrive from reserves. The drop pod containing them did, and then the unit inside disembarks, it doesn't come from reserves. Otherwise you could argue disembarking from a Land Raider allows them to use the stratagem.

So no, it's not clear whatsoever.

No, you had ZERO references to rules. Your post only has your opinion.

As stated in the BRB, units not on the table count as reinforcements. The FAQ states units embarked in units ON THE TABLE count as deployed on table.

Clear as day.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
Pretty clear. Units arriving as reinforcements means both the Pod and troops inside can be shot.

Except as I pointed out in literally the first reply, it's just as valid to state the models disembarking from the drop pod did NOT arrive from reserves. The drop pod containing them did, and then the unit inside disembarks, it doesn't come from reserves. Otherwise you could argue disembarking from a Land Raider allows them to use the stratagem.

So no, it's not clear whatsoever.

 thejughead wrote:
No, you had ZERO references to rules. Your post only has your opinion.

As stated in the BRB, units not on the table count as reinforcements. The FAQ states units embarked in units ON THE TABLE count as deployed on table.

Clear as day.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
Pretty clear. Units arriving as reinforcements means both the Pod and troops inside can be shot.

Except as I pointed out in literally the first reply, it's just as valid to state the models disembarking from the drop pod did NOT arrive from reserves. The drop pod containing them did, and then the unit inside disembarks, it doesn't come from reserves. Otherwise you could argue disembarking from a Land Raider allows them to use the stratagem.

So no, it's not clear whatsoever.

And once the drop pod deploys, the units embarked are on the table.

Were the embarked units of a Drop Pod in reserve as reinforcements, YES. You can shoot them. Clear as DAY!
Were the embarked units of a Land Raider in reserve as reinforcements, NO. You can't shoot them. Clear as DAY!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
No, you had ZERO references to rules. Your post only has your opinion.

As stated in the BRB, units not on the table count as reinforcements. The FAQ states units embarked in units ON THE TABLE count as deployed on table.

Clear as day.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
Pretty clear. Units arriving as reinforcements means both the Pod and troops inside can be shot.

Except as I pointed out in literally the first reply, it's just as valid to state the models disembarking from the drop pod did NOT arrive from reserves. The drop pod containing them did, and then the unit inside disembarks, it doesn't come from reserves. Otherwise you could argue disembarking from a Land Raider allows them to use the stratagem.

So no, it's not clear whatsoever.

And once the drop pod deploys, the units embarked are on the table.

 thejughead wrote:
Were the embarked units of a Drop Pod in reserve as reinforcements, YES. You can shoot them. Clear as DAY!
Were the embarked units of a Land Raider in reserve as reinforcements, NO. You can't shoot them. Clear as DAY!

Doesn't matter if they were. When they disembarked, they were disembarking from a transport that is on the table. Therefore they did not arrive as reserves. By your logic, any unit that started the battle in reserves, if it ever disembarks, can be shot at with the stratagem.

"Therefore they did not arrive as reserves."


You declared them as reinforcements when placing them in the pod. Anything that is placed on the table from reserves is reinforcements whether or not they are being transported. Read the BRB. GW does not need to continue to write snowflake rules if you read the rulebook.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
Were the embarked units of a Drop Pod in reserve as reinforcements, YES. You can shoot them. Clear as DAY!
Were the embarked units of a Land Raider in reserve as reinforcements, NO. You can't shoot them. Clear as DAY!

Doesn't matter if they were. When they disembarked, they were disembarking from a transport that is on the table. Therefore they did not arrive as reserves. By your logic, any unit that started the battle in reserves, if it ever disembarks, can be shot at with the stratagem.

 thejughead wrote:
"Therefore they did not arrive as reserves."


You declared them as reinforcements when placing them in the pod. Anything that is placed on the table from reserves is reinforcements whether or not they are being transported. Read the BRB. GW does not need to continue to write snowflake rules if you read the rulebook.

Can you show me this magical exception that says drop pods don't follow the normal Transport rules for disembarking, other than the fact they do so once the drop pod has arrive?

Disembarking rules has ZERO to do with declaring a unit as reinforcement. Tactical Reserves section Page 215.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
"Therefore they did not arrive as reserves."


You declared them as reinforcements when placing them in the pod. Anything that is placed on the table from reserves is reinforcements whether or not they are being transported. Read the BRB. GW does not need to continue to write snowflake rules if you read the rulebook.

Can you show me this magical exception that says drop pods don't follow the normal Transport rules for disembarking, other than the fact they do so once the drop pod has arrive?

 thejughead wrote:
Disembarking rules has ZERO to do with declaring a unit as reinforcement. Tactical Reserves section Page 215.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
"Therefore they did not arrive as reserves."


You declared them as reinforcements when placing them in the pod. Anything that is placed on the table from reserves is reinforcements whether or not they are being transported. Read the BRB. GW does not need to continue to write snowflake rules if you read the rulebook.

Can you show me this magical exception that says drop pods don't follow the normal Transport rules for disembarking, other than the fact they do so once the drop pod has arrive?

Exactly. They have zero to do with it. Therefore a unit that disembarks from a transport, whether the transport has arrived as reinforcements or not, doesn't count as arriving from reinforcements.

Tactical Reserves section Page 215 says it does. Prove how it doesn't.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
Disembarking rules has ZERO to do with declaring a unit as reinforcement. Tactical Reserves section Page 215.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
"Therefore they did not arrive as reserves."


You declared them as reinforcements when placing them in the pod. Anything that is placed on the table from reserves is reinforcements whether or not they are being transported. Read the BRB. GW does not need to continue to write snowflake rules if you read the rulebook.

Can you show me this magical exception that says drop pods don't follow the normal Transport rules for disembarking, other than the fact they do so once the drop pod has arrive?

Exactly. They have zero to do with it. Therefore a unit that disembarks from a transport, whether the transport has arrived as reinforcements or not, doesn't count as arriving from reinforcements.

I'd like to point out that reinforcements and reserves are different things in this edition. Daemons are not in reserves but can be summoned to the table as reinforcements. You must set aside reinforcement points for this.

Reinforcements
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons. Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.

The definition we have for Reinforcements can be found in the Movement Phase section of the rulebook and since everything from Deep Strike to Infiltration to Summoning counts, there isn't a specific from reserves requirement. Infiltrators do not arrive from reserves and Summoned units aren't even part of your army list.

What we do have as the requirement for being considered Reinforcements is being set up on the battlefield mid-turn by various means. However, reinforcements cannot move at all. They have spent their movement deploying. The marines in a drop pod fall under a different rule, that of Disembarking.

Disembark
Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves. When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in this way is slain.
Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons.

Here, we can see that disembarked models CAN move after disembarking. There is a definite distinction between the two. Similarly, I would not expect someone to shoot my guys every time they left a Land Raider.

By RAW, I would say that marines in a drop pod fall under the same technicality that allows Stratagem nonsense. The Drop Pod is what's arriving from reserves, not the marines. It obeys all Reinforcements rules, including getting shot at. By RAI, I would argue that it makes sense because the interceptors are firing at the unit as it arriving from space or wherever else and the marines are therefore not valid targets until it has arrived. The marines follow the rules for Disembarking and are not considered Reinforcements at all but instead are Embarked on a transport.

When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.

So the marines are being considered Embarked in the transport. What does Embark mean exactly?

Embark
If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked inside the transport.
1) Embarked units are not considered on the battlefield.
Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.
2) Embarked units cannot be affected in any way.
If a transport is destroyed, any units embarked within it immediately disembark (see below) before the transport model is removed, but you must then roll one dice for each model you just set up on the battlefield. For each roll of 1, a model that disembarked (your choice) is slain.
3) Losing the transport causes an immediate Disembark action.

The way I read it there is no way that the Space Marines in a Drop Pod can be shot at by an interception ability. They are Embarked in the transport until it is deployed and therefore are not arriving from Reinforcements, they are arriving from the transport. They cannot be shot at as they arrive and the stratagem can only be used when a unit sets up from Reinforcements, not as a result of Disembark actions. Even if the transport is blown to smithereens, it only executes another immediate Disembark action. The Drop Pod itself calls it an immediate Disembark, just as losing a transport would do. These are not actions related to Reinforcements or their arrival.

So no, you can't shoot space marines. You get a chance to use this stratagem when the drop pod hits the table and then the space marines disembark, which does not trigger another opportunity to use the stratagem. They have technically been on the board for a fraction of a time within the drop pod and are simply leaving it now. The stratagem does not give permission to fire upon disembarkers, only on units actually arriving as Reinforcements, which is spelled out above.

 thejughead wrote:
Tactical Reserves section Page 215 says it does. Prove how it doesn't

Prove there isn't a magical pink unicorn right behind be and a teapot in orbit around Mars. Inability to disprove does not prove. Scientific Method 101 my friend.

You've completely missed the point of what I am saying. Yes, the unit was put in Tactical Reserves, embarked on the drop pod. However, once the drop pod arrives, the unit disembarks normally, it doesn't use a special rule to arrive from reserves.

Is this stupid? Of course, see my sig for more proof GW hires syphilitic <INSERT STUPID DOG BREED HERE> to write their rulebooks.

Is it CLEAR? No, of course it isn't, see previous signature reference.

Page 215 clearly defines anything not on board as being in reserves and arriving as reinforcements. I'll leave to you lawyers to have a field day with posts. The 99% of the rest of us will get back to playing and enjoying 40K.

“TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you even own a rulebook?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
Tactical Reserves section Page 215 says it does. Prove how it doesn't

Prove there isn't a magical pink unicorn right behind be and a teapot in orbit around Mars. Inability to disprove does not prove. Scientific Method 101 my friend.

You've completely missed the point of what I am saying. Yes, the unit was put in Tactical Reserves, embarked on the drop pod. However, once the drop pod arrives, the unit disembarks normally, it doesn't use a special rule to arrive from reserves.

Is this stupid? Of course, see my sig for more proof GW hires syphilitic <INSERT STUPID DOG BREED HERE> to write their rulebooks.

Is it CLEAR? No, of course it isn't, see previous signature reference.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You are referring to Reinforcement Points (pg 214) not reinforcements (pg 215)

 Arkaine wrote:
I'd like to point out that reinforcements and reserves are different things in this edition. Daemons are not in reserves but can be summoned to the table as reinforcements. You must set aside reinforcement points for this.

Tactical Reserves does not 'Clearly Show' that Models in a Transport are also in Reserves, what you would be looking for is found in the Narrative section where it states this:
Note that if a unit placed into Reserve is embarked within a TRANSPORT , they will arrive when their transport does, not separately
(if rolling, make a single roll for the transport and the units embarked in it).
- Reserves, Page 194

Even there they don't outright say it, but they heavily imply that Embarked Units are also in reserves.

In any case, I am on the side of 'They are in Reserves' after giving it serious Rule crunching for a reason that doesn't involve insulting people and claiming they can't read:
What actually grants permission for a Unit to be put into Reserves (Match Play, Narrative it is all the Mission being played) in the first place?

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit,
in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for
a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your
army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on
the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.
- Tactical Reserves

Tactical Reserves tells us to look at the Model's Datasheet to determine if it can arrive on the battlefield as reinforcements, so this doesn't give us permission to put just any Unit into "Reserves." It then goes on to inform us that no matter how many of these Units we have, half must still be deployed onto the battlefield at the start of the game. Then it closes by informing us that Units which sit in "Reserves" for too long will be destroyed, so better make sure they get in quick. If we actually read the Tactical Reserve rule we do not come with this conclusion that Units embarked in a Transport are forced into "reserves" as well....

No; we conclude that the answer will be found on the Datasheet of the Model that is "set up Reserve" and this is what we find when do do so for Drop-Pods:
Drop Pod Assault: During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it, in orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield.
- Drop Pod in question

If you set this Model up in Orbit, just whom is set up in orbit along side it?

 thejughead wrote:
Page 215 clearly defines anything not on board as being in reserves and arriving as reinforcements. I'll leave to you lawyers to have a field day with posts. The 99% of the rest of us will get back to playing and enjoying 40K.

Meanwhile, pg177 defines Reinforcements, pg183 defines transport rules including what being Embarked or Disembarking means, and units Embarked on a transport cannot be shot at. Once they disembark from the transport, they are no longer arriving as Reinforcements from reserves. They were already on the battlefield for the 3 seconds it took to setup your drop pod on it. If we go with what you yourself said, anything NOT on the board arrives on reinforcements. Except the Disembarking Space Marines are already on the board, disembarking from the transport that brought them. Unless by your logic, leaving a transport at any time means you are arriving as reinforcements, in which case Rhinos suck even if they've been on the board since the start of the game.

The purpose of drop pods is to protect the units within for a safe arrival. That purpose is maintained here by following the rules as they are written. If we were to assume that per your words "anything not on board as being in reserves and arriving as reinforcements" then that means units leaving a Rhino should not be allowed to move per the arriving from reinforcements rules. They can because they are Disembarking rather than arriving as reinforcements and obey an entirely different set of rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thejughead wrote:
You are referring to Reinforcement Points (pg 214) not reinforcements (pg 215)

 Arkaine wrote:
I'd like to point out that reinforcements and reserves are different things in this edition. Daemons are not in reserves but can be summoned to the table as reinforcements. You must set aside reinforcement points for this.

No I am not. Pg 177, please read the ENTIRE rulebook rather than repeating a single source out of context from the rest of it.

 thejughead wrote:
Embarking and Disembarking rules do not “turn off” a unit being placed into reserves. No where does disembarking rules explicitly refer to reserves or reinforcements. These re assumptions you are making. I acknowledge that the talk about reinforcements on page 177 and further clarify it on page on page 215.

Also I was only referring to the unicorn lover to read the rulebook.

You cited Reinforcement Points as though they are not Reinforcements and claimed I was confusing what reinforcements were. Pg 68 of the Chaos Index claims otherwise.

Daemonic Ritual
Excerpt: This unit is treated as reinforcements for your army and can be placed anywhere on the battlefield that is... etc

As for your claims...

1) There is no such thing as reserves. That is a defunct state now as there are multiple ways to arrive on the battlefield NOT from reserves. We now use the term Reinforcements.
2) No one is contesting that the unit was placed in your concept of "reserves". They are contesting that Disembarking means they are arriving from it.
3) You're the one that made the assumption that any unit not on the board is arriving as reinforcements. Units embarked are not on the board, per the transport rules themselves.

The contention point here is that one can only make use of this stratagem when a unit arrives as reinforcements. A Disembarking unit is not arriving as reinforcements. I don't care if it was in "reserves" at the start of the turn, it's not in "reserves" anymore. When the unit "arrives as reinforcements" it does so Embarked within a transport. That is your Window of Opportunity. If you wish to shoot at the unit, you must do so while it is STILL EMBARKED. Which the transport rules forbid. After this window passes, the unit Disembarks. Disembarking is not a trigger condition to use the stratagem. A unit arriving this turn is not a trigger condition to use the stratagem. The unit must arrive as reinforcements and when that condition was met it was STILL INSIDE THE TRANSPORT. Once the unit Disembarks, it is no longer an eligible target. It is no longer "arriving". It has already "arrived". Please cite where you see in the rules or the stratagem that one may shoot upon a unit that arrived as reinforcements this turn. You're reading it wrong if you think that was the case. It is only usable on units that are still being deployed as reinforcements. Space Marines are NOT deployed as reinforcements, they are disembarked subsequent to that WoO that permits this stratagem's usage and do not trigger an opportunity again.