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Without even getting into the rest of it, I'm trying to figure out where on earth anybody got the idea that there's "no such thing as Reserves" in the rules, when there are literally two different rules that establish what "Reserves" are, Tactical Reserves on pg. 215 and Reserves on pg. 194

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Without even getting into the rest of it, I'm trying to figure out where on earth anybody got the idea that there's "no such thing as Reserves" in the rules, when there are literally two different rules that establish what "Reserves" are, Tactical Reserves on pg. 215 and Reserves on pg. 194

Tactical Reserves are not reserves, it's merely the name, like how an Assault Cannon isn't an Assault weapon. It references an EXAMPLE of units being "in Reserve" but as that is alongside teleportarium and Deep Strike methods it would have to be specifically called that by the rule that deploys the units (anyone know of one?) and does not represent the general 7th edition version of "Reserves" that keep being cited. All units not on the battlefield are not in Reserves. Context of the criticism. As for the other citation, that's the Narrative play mission rule which details which units start in Reserve and rolls for them to arrive like 7th edition, again nothing to do with the context in which they were being referred to.

As it's the internet and we try to stay terse here, the full statement would be more like "There is no such thing as reserves the way you are employing the term". It's a relic from a past edition that people are still citing even though we have new rules and new terms for the same concept.

Also, let's actually look at the drop pod assault rule, and Infoslave Skull, and the wording they use.

Infoslave Skull:

"Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements".

Drop Pod Assault:

Any models embarked inside must immediately disembark, but they must be set up more than 9" away from any enemy models."

Now, let's pop back over to our rules on reinforcements.

"Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve,etc.,in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements"

This tells us that it is the special abilities of a model (in this case Drop Pod Assault) that allow them (or in the case of DPA, the units inside it that it confers the ability on), to deploy off the battlefield, and allows them to arrive mid-game as reinforcements.

So, going back to DPA, your obsession with the term "disembark" is absolutely irrelevant to the interpretation of this stratagem. The term "disembark" does not end the trigger of "arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements", because what triggers them "arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements" is the Drop Pod Assault rule, and because that rule requires the unit(s) inside to disembark and "set up" more than 9" away from enemy models, the arrival of the unit as reinforcements has not concluded until they have been set up on the field.

Disembarking them is part of them arriving on the field as reinforcements. Meaning that for the purposes of this stratagem, they have been set up as a unit arriving as reinforcements, and are a perfectly legal target.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
So, going back to DPA, your obsession with the term "disembark" is absolutely irrelevant to the interpretation of this stratagem. The term "disembark" does not end the trigger of "arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements", because what triggers them "arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements" is the Drop Pod Assault rule, and because that rule requires the unit(s) inside to disembark and "set up" more than 9" away from enemy models, the arrival of the unit as reinforcements has not concluded until they have been set up on the field.

Disembarking them is part of them arriving on the field as reinforcements. Meaning that for the purposes of this stratagem, they have been set up as a unit arriving as reinforcements, and are a perfectly legal target.

This is incorrect. Please show where it states in DPA that the DPA rule itself applies that to the units it carries. It does not. DPA is setup in high orbit to arrive as reinforcements yet the units within disembark after this is completed. Disembarking them is not part of them arriving on the field. Yes, arrival of the Drop Pod HAS concluded even if the unit it is carrying has not been setup on the field, and the unit it is carrrying is NOT deployed by the Drop Pod Assault rule, it is told to disembark. The Disembark rule is what tells the unit to set up on the table. We know this because there is no limit to where or how far the unit must deploy. The only thing the DPA indicates is that we cannot deploy them close to the enemy when they disembark. Yet does that mean I can have the drop pod here and then deploy the unit 48" away as long as it's 9" away from enemy models? No, because the unit is not following the DPA rules for being set up, it is adhering to Disembark rules which limit it to 3" around the Drop Pod. The Drop Pod merely adds the additional restriction of being 9" away from enemy models.

I'm surprised you cannot tell the difference when you yourself cited pg 194 which claims that "they will arrive when their transport does, not separately (if rolling, make a single roll for the transport and the units embarked in it)." The unit inside the transport arrives at the same time as the transport and is still embarked when it does so. Once it moves to disembarking, it is no longer arriving from reinforcements but simply vacating an active transport on the field.

As mentioned above with jughead's argument, this is the point of contention that cannot be agreed upon. Disembarking is not part of arriving on the field as reinforcements. The Drop Pod rule does not say the model is setup at the same time as the unit with the unit around it within 3". It literally states that the drop pod is what gets deployed and then the unit inside disembarks. We have rules for reinforcements and we have rules for disembarking. Please don't confuse the two and expect a disembarking unit to count as arriving from reinforcements instead of doing what it is actually doing: disembarking from a transport deployed onto the battlefield.


I feel that your interpretation here is being confused with other games where one must complete the entire action of a certain rule before moving on. No such restriction exists in Warhammer 40k and I dare say I'd like to see the page number where it does.

 Arkaine wrote:

This is incorrect. Please show where it states in DPA that the DPA rule itself applies that to the units it carries.

Sure thing!

"During deployment, you can setup this model, along with any units embarked within it,in orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield"

Do you need me to explain to you how this syntactically means that both the drop pod and the unit(s) inside have been granted the ability to deploy in orbit (which is the ability that allows them to arrive as reinforcements)

It does not. DPA is setup in high orbit to arrive as reinforcements yet the units within disembark after this is completed. Disembarking them is not part of them arriving on the field. Yes, arrival of the Drop Pod HAS concluded even if the unit it is carrying has not been setup on the field, and the unit it is carrrying is NOT deployed by the Drop Pod Assault rule, it is told to disembark. The Disembark rule is what tells the unit to set up on the table. We know this because there is no limit to where or how far the unit must deploy.

Interesting fact: it is possible to use an established rule as part of a second rule. Like how there's and overwatch rule, that requires you to use the already established shooting rules, but with additional caveats. Kind of like how this rule tells you to use the established disembark rules, but with additional caveats. That doesn't make it magically a new phase, or not part of the Drop Pod Assault rule, when it is explicitly, unequivocally part of the Drop Pod Assault rule, as evidenced by the fact that it's part of the Drop Pod Assault rule.

I'm surprised you cannot tell the difference when you yourself cited pg 194 which claims that "they will arrive when their transport does, not separately (if rolling, make a single roll for the transport and the units embarked in it)." The unit inside the transport arrives at the same time as the transport and is still embarked when it does so. Once it moves to disembarking, it is no longer arriving from reinforcements but simply vacating an active transport on the field.

Except that this here is a massive leap of logic, based entirely on a sequencing structure you've invented in your head to support your argument. It doesn't "move to disembarking", disembarking is part of the process by which a Drop Pod and the unit inside arrive. That's why it's part of the Drop Pod Assault rule, not a separate statement saying "after the Drop Pod has arrived, the unit inside, which totes didn't arrive as reinforcements, must now disembark from the Drop Pod". The Drop Pod and the unit(s) inside arrive on the field via the Drop Pod Assault rule, which includes disembarking from the Drop Pod. Don't enforce a timing structure or end point to the rule that isn't actually how the rule is written to try to support your claim.

As mentioned above with jughead's argument, this is the point of contention that cannot be agreed upon. Disembarking is not part of arriving on the field as reinforcements. The Drop Pod rule does not say the model is setup at the same time as the unit with the unit around it within 3". It literally states that the drop pod is what gets deployed and then the unit inside disembarks. We have rules for reinforcements and we have rules for disembarking. Please don't confuse the two and expect a disembarking unit to count as arriving from reinforcements instead of doing what it is actually doing: disembarking from a transport deployed onto the battlefield.

Again, the rules on reinforcements say that certain models have abilities that allow them to deploy off the field and then join the battle mid-game as reinforcements.

What allows a Drop Pod and the unit(s) in it to do so, is the Drop Pod Assault ability. Part of that ability is the models embarked inside the Drop Pod disembarking. It is clearly written as part of the rule that allows them both to arrive as reinforcements.

I feel that your interpretation here is being confused with other games where one must complete the entire action of a certain rule before moving on. No such restriction exists in Warhammer 40k and I dare say I'd like to see the page number where it does.

Really?? Awesome! I can't wait to tell my next opponent at a tournament that I don't have to wait for them to complete any of their actions before I move on and start shooting them. The game will go ever so much faster. I dare say I'd like to see the page number where it says I do.

I feel that you interpretation here is being clouded by a bunch of nonsense you've completely made up. Seriously, the need for it to say you complete the entire action of the rule before moving on is as non-sensical and made up as the timing structure you've crafted to support your interpretation. Disembarking from the Drop Pod is part of the Drop Pod Assault rule. You can go "okay, well, I don't like this rule anymore, so I'm going to decide it stops here, MOVING ON!" all you want, but that doesn't make it that case. Your made up timing structure has no basis in the rules. The fact that disembarking is part of the ability that allows the unit to arrive as reinforcement does, the fact that it's part of the ability that allows the unit to arrive as reinforcement.

I'm sorry if you dislike the fact that you can't bubblewrap your mehreens by making up sequencing changes that don't actually exist. But you can't.

It's the edition of colloquial wording and being reasonable. Reasonably, you should be able to shoot the unit disembarking, and I believe it works RAW too as others have posted.

I do not play marines, so I don't really care. But by reading the mentionned rules, I can't see how someone could genuily think it's legal to shoot on the disembarking unit.

- The embarked unit is deployed inside the Drop Pod, the same way it could be deployed in say a rhino. The drop pod is ONE deployment in reserve.

- The Drop Pod is a (Assignated) Transport and follow the usual transport rules with the sole exception that the EMBARKED unit must DISEMBARK as the pod enters the battlefield.

- As per the rulebook "Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked."

So to make things simple :
- Drop Pod enter the battlefield from reinforcement -> targetable by the stratagem
- Unit embarked disembark from its assignated transport -> not targetable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously what if the drop pod arrives more than 12'' but the unit disembark and is less than 12'' ? You can shoot at it ? That make no sense.

 thejughead wrote:
Placing both units on the battlefield is the same act. The controlling player must finish both. Both counts as reinforcements. I'm out.

If it's the same act, then obviously you should be able to place both units on tha battlefield in either order, or in fact placing some of the infantry first, then the drop pod, then the rest of the infantry. If you're placing some infantry first, how are you able to judge how far away they are from the drop pod? No, it's a sequential process, with the drop pod being placed first, and after that the infantry being placed. This makes it two acts.

The drop pod is placed, with the infantry inside. At this point the infantry count as having arrived from reserves. If you want to treat them as reinforcements, they are reinforcements at the point the drop pod lands with them inside - they are not a valid target at the time you treat them as reinforcements. At that point, they are treated as any other unit embarked in a vehicle. When they disembark, they are disembarking from a vehicle on the board, they are not counting as reinforcements coming in from Reserve. They count as any other unit inside a transport counts.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Sure thing!
"During deployment, you can setup this model, along with any units embarked within it,in orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield"
Do you need me to explain to you how this syntactically means that both the drop pod and the unit(s) inside have been granted the ability to deploy in orbit (which is the ability that allows them to arrive as reinforcements)

Do I need to explain to how the unit in question does not arrive as reinforcements when exiting a drop pod, and that the rule in question does not explicitly state that it does? Warhammer 40k is a permissive ruleset, you are not ENTITLED to invent implicit interpretations to get around the rules. You have permission to use the stratagem at units arriving as reinforcements. You do not have permission to fire upon disembarking units after they have already arrived. When the units were arriving as reinforcements they were embarked upon a transport. The fact that they disembark immediately after the Drop Pod lands does not convey the status of arriving as reinforcements, and that is what I requested that you show in the rules. Which you did not!

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Interesting fact: it is possible to use an established rule as part of a second rule. Like how there's and overwatch rule, that requires you to use the already established shooting rules, but with additional caveats. Kind of like how this rule tells you to use the established disembark rules, but with additional caveats. That doesn't make it magically a new phase, or not part of the Drop Pod Assault rule, when it is explicitly, unequivocally part of the Drop Pod Assault rule, as evidenced by the fact that it's part of the Drop Pod Assault rule.

Which the rule already does, using established Disembark rules in conjunction with a new limitation of 9" deployment. None of that alters the fact that the Drop Pod Assault is NOT deploying the unit. Per its own wording, the unit is disembarking. Per your own example, this means the unit is using Overwatch rules over normal Shooting rules, even though some normal shooting rules still apply. This has nothing to do with phases, it has to do with the distinction between Shooting and Overwatch, between Arriving and Disembarking. The Drop Pod Assault once again does not claim the unit inside arrives with it. It claims it arrives then the unit disembarks. The unit itself is not "arriving as reinforcements" at the point they are Disembarking, that moment has already passed and they were still inside the transport.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Except that this here is a massive leap of logic, based entirely on a sequencing structure you've invented in your head to support your argument. It doesn't "move to disembarking", disembarking is part of the process by which a Drop Pod and the unit inside arrive. That's why it's part of the Drop Pod Assault rule, not a separate statement saying "after the Drop Pod has arrived, the unit inside, which totes didn't arrive as reinforcements, must now disembark from the Drop Pod". The Drop Pod and the unit(s) inside arrive on the field via the Drop Pod Assault rule, which includes disembarking from the Drop Pod. Don't enforce a timing structure or end point to the rule that isn't actually how the rule is written to try to support your claim.

The only massive leap of logic I see is someone trying to claim that an entire rule must be used instead of perform in steps and the same person claiming that their IMPLICIT interpretation of the rule overrides the extremely explicit wording of the rule that does not render the unit inside as arriving as reinforcements UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED. The Drop Pod is the only thing that is arriving as reinforcements that can be legally fired upon at the time such a criteria is met for the use of the stratagem. Once the unit inside begins deploying as a result of the Disembark rules then it is not considered arriving as reinforcements. Nowhere does Disembark or the Drop Pod rules claim that the unit is treated as arriving as reinforcements when it disembarks. You may only argue that it was arriving as reinforcements while it was still within its transport, which presents it as an illegal target.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Again, the rules on reinforcements say that certain models have abilities that allow them to deploy off the field and then join the battle mid-game as reinforcements.

What allows a Drop Pod and the unit(s) in it to do so, is the Drop Pod Assault ability. Part of that ability is the models embarked inside the Drop Pod disembarking. It is clearly written as part of the rule that allows them both to arrive as reinforcements.

Which is your made up sentiment. Your implied interpretation of the rule. The rules do not explicitly state anything of the kind about models disembarking being part of arriving as reinforcements. The ability itself only claims that the models are placed in high orbit and the reinforcements rule claims the models join mid-game as reinforcements. Well guess what? The High Orbit's function concludes when the Drop Pod hits the table. Disembarking has nothing to do with High Orbit or being set up as reinforcements. You're linking the two of your own volition, which is expressly not permitted in the Warhammer 40k ruleset. The same failed logic is what makes people think "always hits on a 5+" allows the use of Ballistic Skill in addition to the guaranteed of 5+ hitting. You cannot add additional words or reasoning to the rules because once you start doing that you can make it claim whatever you bloody well please.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Really?? Awesome! I can't wait to tell my next opponent at a tournament that I don't have to wait for them to complete any of their actions before I move on and start shooting them. The game will go ever so much faster. I dare say I'd like to see the page number where it says I do.

You're confusing Timing in the sense of real life with Timing in the sense of a game structure. You have no permission to move on to another step while shooting is being conducted UNLESS given so. But guess what? There are indeed stratagems that can interrupt your opponent's actions and do things like force a reroll or move your unit to the top of the priority list in assault. The rule in question has similar built in allowances. The stratagem in question may interrupt the Drop Pod Assault rule at the moment the drop pod touches down, NOT afterwards when the unit is disembarking from their transport and does not count as itself arriving as reinforcements.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I feel that you interpretation here is being clouded by a bunch of nonsense you've completely made up. Seriously, the need for it to say you complete the entire action of the rule before moving on is as non-sensical and made up as the timing structure you've crafted to support your interpretation. Disembarking from the Drop Pod is part of the Drop Pod Assault rule. You can go "okay, well, I don't like this rule anymore, so I'm going to decide it stops here, MOVING ON!" all you want, but that doesn't make it that case. Your made up timing structure has no basis in the rules. The fact that disembarking is part of the ability that allows the unit to arrive as reinforcement does, the fact that it's part of the ability that allows the unit to arrive as reinforcement.

I'm sorry if you dislike the fact that you can't bubblewrap your mehreens by making up sequencing changes that don't actually exist. But you can't.

No one's made up anything, I've repeatedly cited where the rules state these things. Sequencing is a real fact of 40k as evident by the Sequencing rule on pg178. Without Sequencing, a stratagem that can be used "at the start of your Movement phase" can be used any time you bloody well please because Sequencing doesn't matter. Warhammer 40k is already built with a pre-existing set of rules and conditions for when things may or may not activate, when they may be used, and all I'm doing is reading the rules and applying them as they are described.

But by all means, keep making up your own "cloud of nonsense" by claiming that a Disembarking unit is arriving as reinforcements. This is objectively false. The drop pod and its embarked unit were the ones arriving as reinforcements. Feel free to shoot at those targets (note: Rules forbid shooting at embarked units). When the unit disembarks from the Drop Pod, it is not arriving as reinforcements. It is leaving a transport. A transport that is not arriving as reinforcements (any longer) but is actually on the battlefield legally. Exactly like a Rhino or Land Raider or Storm Eagle. Surely you wouldn't argue that one may shoot at units leaving a Rhino?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IronSlug wrote:I do not play marines, so I don't really care. But by reading the mentionned rules, I can't see how someone could genuily think it's legal to shoot on the disembarking unit.

- The embarked unit is deployed inside the Drop Pod, the same way it could be deployed in say a rhino. The drop pod is ONE deployment in reserve.

- The Drop Pod is a (Assignated) Transport and follow the usual transport rules with the sole exception that the EMBARKED unit must DISEMBARK as the pod enters the battlefield.

- As per the rulebook "Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked."

So to make things simple :
- Drop Pod enter the battlefield from reinforcement -> targetable by the stratagem
- Unit embarked disembark from its assignated transport -> not targetable.

doctortom wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
Placing both units on the battlefield is the same act. The controlling player must finish both. Both counts as reinforcements. I'm out.

If it's the same act, then obviously you should be able to place both units on tha battlefield in either order, or in fact placing some of the infantry first, then the drop pod, then the rest of the infantry. If you're placing some infantry first, how are you able to judge how far away they are from the drop pod? No, it's a sequential process, with the drop pod being placed first, and after that the infantry being placed. This makes it two acts.

The drop pod is placed, with the infantry inside. At this point the infantry count as having arrived from reserves. If you want to treat them as reinforcements, they are reinforcements at the point the drop pod lands with them inside - they are not a valid target at the time you treat them as reinforcements. At that point, they are treated as any other unit embarked in a vehicle. When they disembark, they are disembarking from a vehicle on the board, they are not counting as reinforcements coming in from Reserve. They count as any other unit inside a transport counts.

I'm glad at least some people understand sequencing in 40k. Thank you guys for presenting more concise summaries of the argument. From post #2 in this thread, no one has been arguing over reinforcements or the marines being affected by Tactical Reserves. It's always been a sequencing issue. The people still arguing against this logic are trying to apply reinforcements rules to a unit when it has nothing to do with why the unit is outside the normal sequence for when the stratagem may be used.

IronSlug wrote:I do not play marines, so I don't really care. But by reading the mentionned rules, I can't see how someone could genuily think it's legal to shoot on the disembarking unit.

Then you need to go back and read people's posts better. It's made pretty clear

Seriously what if the drop pod arrives more than 12'' but the unit disembark and is less than 12'' ? You can shoot at it ? That make no sense.

It makes perfect sense. The drop pod landed right outside of range, and the units inside rushed out if it, into firing range.

doctortom wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
Placing both units on the battlefield is the same act. The controlling player must finish both. Both counts as reinforcements. I'm out.

If it's the same act, then obviously you should be able to place both units on tha battlefield in either order, or in fact placing some of the infantry first, then the drop pod, then the rest of the infantry. If you're placing some infantry first, how are you able to judge how far away they are from the drop pod? No, it's a sequential process, with the drop pod being placed first, and after that the infantry being placed. This makes it two acts.

The drop pod is placed, with the infantry inside. At this point the infantry count as having arrived from reserves. If you want to treat them as reinforcements, they are reinforcements at the point the drop pod lands with them inside - they are not a valid target at the time you treat them as reinforcements. At that point, they are treated as any other unit embarked in a vehicle. When they disembark, they are disembarking from a vehicle on the board, they are not counting as reinforcements coming in from Reserve. They count as any other unit inside a transport counts.

Something can be sequential and still part of the same "act, or more accurately in this case, the same ability. You place the drop pod and then you disembark, but both are part of the ability that lets the units arrive as reinforcements. As yet, not a single person as been able to put forth a shred of evidence that the word "disembark" magically ends the resolution of the rule that lets the unit arrive from reinforcements other than wishful thinking and made up timing structures.

Drop Pod Assault is what let's the units arrive as reinforcements. Disembarking from the drop pod is part of that ability. The units have not finished arriving as reinforcements until after they disembark

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Drop Pod Assault is what let's the units arrive as reinforcements. Disembarking from the drop pod is part of that ability. The units have not finished arriving as reinforcements until after they disembark

And this is the crux of the made up rule. People inventing theories that disembarked units are also arriving as reinforcements when that is explicitly not the case.

 Arkaine wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Drop Pod Assault is what let's the units arrive as reinforcements. Disembarking from the drop pod is part of that ability. The units have not finished arriving as reinforcements until after they disembark

And this is the crux of the made up rule. People inventing theories that disembarked units are also arriving as reinforcements when that is explicitly not the case.

If that is "explicitly not the case", you should be able to reference the specific rule that says that they are not also arriving as reinforcements. That is what explicitly means, if you weren't aware. That it is stated, not assumed.

For example, the rules explicitly state that certain models have abilities that let them deploy off the table and arrive mid-game as reinforcements.

Drop Pod Assault explicitly allows the drop pod and units inside to deploy off the table and arrive mid-game, and it explicitly states how they do so, which includes disembarking from the Drop Pod.

The problem here is that you don't like the fact that what the rules explicitly say conflicts with what you have interpreted them as saying without any evidence to support it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, nobody is saying timing and sequencing isn't a thing in 40k. I'm saying the sequencing you've invented to make diembarking not part of arriving from reinforcements is not a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:


But by all means, keep making up your own "cloud of nonsense" by claiming that a Disembarking unit is arriving as reinforcements. This is objectively false. The drop pod and its embarked unit were the ones arriving as reinforcements. Feel free to shoot at those targets (note: Rules forbid shooting at embarked units). When the unit disembarks from the Drop Pod, it is not arriving as reinforcements. It is leaving a transport. A transport that is not arriving as reinforcements (any longer) but is actually on the battlefield legally. Exactly like a Rhino or Land Raider or Storm Eagle. Surely you wouldn't argue that one may shoot at units leaving a Rhino?

If their diembarking the Rhino was a mandatory part of a rule that allowed that Rhino and the unit inside to arrive from reinforcements, which is the only situation we're actually talking about here, you bet I would.

Your inability to understand the difference between completely different scenarios is a fault in your logic, not mine.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
If that is "explicitly not the case", you should be able to reference the specific rule that says that they are not also arriving as reinforcements. That is what explicitly means, if you weren't aware. That it is stated, not assumed.

False, explicitly not the case means that YOUR dialogue does not exist in the rulebook anywhere. Please reference the specific rule that says they are also arriving as reinforcements. The Drop Pod Assault says they are arriving as reinforcements EMBARKED on the drop pod. It does not say this applies to a disembarking unit.

Again, you are making up rules that don't exist. What I said was explicitly not the case was "People inventing theories that disembarked units are also arriving as reinforcements" and if you'd like to counter that then you need to show us where it explicitly tells you that your theory is correct. Explicitly absent remains an explicit disproof.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
For example, the rules explicitly state that certain models have abilities that let them deploy off the table and arrive mid-game as reinforcements.

Yep, that is not in contention.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Drop Pod Assault explicitly allows the drop pod and units inside to deploy off the table and arrive mid-game, and it explicitly states how they do so, which includes disembarking from the Drop Pod.

Nope, you were right for the first part and then added disembarking as part of the arrival when this is not permitted anywhere in the statement. The Drop Pod Assault itself claims that the Drop Pod arrives first then the marines disembark. Or are you claiming the marines arrive first then the Drop Pod shows up next to them? There's an explicit order to these things created by the way it is worded and the explicit direction to disembark the marines instead of simply setting up alongside the Drop Pod, which is what the rule would have to say for your interpretation to be correct.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
The problem here is that you don't like the fact that what the rules explicitly say conflicts with what you have interpreted them as saying without any evidence to support it.

No, that's you, I've read the rules as they are written. You'd added assumptions concerning disembarking units being treated as arriving as reinforcements. Would you care to apply that theory to all disembarkation or only the cases you choose for it to apply to? Because lest I remind you for the fourteenth time, the Drop Pod Assault says nothing about the unit within the drop pod arriving as part of the action. Nothing, zip, zippo. It only states the Drop Pod arrives for it is the Drop Pod that is actually set up. After the Drop Pod arrives, we are directed for the unit to disembark, exactly as we are when transports explode. We are given the added restriction that the unit cannot be set up 9" from the enemy but the actual set up was caused by the Disembark action, not the Drop Pod Assault.

Drop Pod Assault does not tell us to set up the unit at all. Disembark does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh for clarity, when I say something is "explicitly not the case" and you counter with "show me where" then you are failing to understand what not the case means.

If I said the rules explictly do not tell you to do something, asking where the rules explicitly say that is a headscratching reply. They don't say anything on the subject, which is the point of saying they are explicitly absent in the first case.

Explicit directions are written out clearly and direct all actions involved, from telling you when and what you need to roll to telling you where and how far a model is deployed. Your added sentiment concerning disembarked units being treated as arrivals exists nowhere, not even in the rule you keep citing.

The only time the units are treated by the DPA rule as arriving as reinforcements is when landing from high orbit, a time when the marines are still embarked upon their transport, which both arrive together and not separately per the rule you cited earlier. Any subsequent disembarkation has nothing to do with High Orbit or reinforcements any longer. Setting up models as a result of a Disembark does not trigger any sort of "arriving as reinforcements" condition and the DPA rule does not claim it does either, especially since it does not set up the models itself.

 Arkaine wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
If that is "explicitly not the case", you should be able to reference the specific rule that says that they are not also arriving as reinforcements. That is what explicitly means, if you weren't aware. That it is stated, not assumed.

False, explicitly not the case means that YOUR dialogue does not exist in the rulebook anywhere. Please reference the specific rule that says they are also arriving as reinforcements. The Drop Pod Assault says they are arriving as reinforcements EMBARKED on the drop pod. It does not say this applies to a disembarking unit.

Again, you are making up rules that don't exist. What I said was explicitly not the case was "People inventing theories that disembarked units are also arriving as reinforcements" and if you'd like to counter that then you need to show us where it explicitly tells you that your theory is correct. Explicitly absent remains an explicit disproof.

I have. You just can't handle the fact that it doesn't agree with your interpretation. The unit is explicitly granted permission to arrive on the field mid-game as reinforcements by the Drop Pod Assault rule. Disembarking is explicitly part of the Drop Pod Assault rule. The Drop Pod Assault rule is the ability that allows them to arrive on the field as reinforcements, which means disembarking is part of their arrival on the field, because it is part of the rule that allows them to arrive. The fact that you've chosen to break off the part of the rule you don't like and say it's not part of the same ability doesn't change that, and you still have yet to back up that assertion. Maybe look up "onus probandi", and stop trying to shift the burden of proof for your interpretation onto me.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Drop Pod Assault explicitly allows the drop pod and units inside to deploy off the table and arrive mid-game, and it explicitly states how they do so, which includes disembarking from the Drop Pod.

Nope, you were right for the first part and then added disembarking as part of the arrival when this is not permitted anywhere in the statement. The Drop Pod Assault itself claims that the Drop Pod arrives first then the marines disembark. Or are you claiming the marines arrive first then the Drop Pod shows up next to them? There's an explicit order to these things created by the way it is worded and the explicit direction to disembark the marines instead of simply setting up alongside the Drop Pod, which is what the rule would have to say for your interpretation to be correct.

Again, because you seem to be having trouble understanding it, multiple sequential actions can be part of a larger action. If I give you keys to a parked car that isn't on, and say "put this stopped car in motion", you're going to follow a sequence of events to do so. You're going to get in the car, put the key in the ignition, turn it, depress the brake pedal, shift the car into drive, remove your foot from the brake, and apply pressure to the gas pedal. Even though this is specific sequence of multiple events (gasp), it's still all part of "putting the stopped car in motion".

When you activate the drop pod assault rule, you place the drop pod on the table, then you disembark the unit(s) inside, placing them not within 9" of any enemy unit. Even though this is (again, gasp) a sequence of events, it is still all part of the Drop Pod Assault rule, which is the ability that allows the units to arrive from reinforcements.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
The problem here is that you don't like the fact that what the rules explicitly say conflicts with what you have interpreted them as saying without any evidence to support it.

No, that's you, I've read the rules as they are written. You'd added assumptions concerning disembarking units being treated as arriving as reinforcements. Would you care to apply that theory to all disembarkation or only the cases you choose for it to apply to? Because lest I remind you for the fourteenth time, the Drop Pod Assault says nothing about the unit within the drop pod arriving as part of the action. Nothing, zip, zippo. It only states the Drop Pod arrives for it is the Drop Pod that is actually set up. After the Drop Pod arrives, we are directed for the unit to disembark, exactly as we are when transports explode. We are given the added restriction that the unit cannot be set up 9" from the enemy but the actual set up was caused by the Disembark action, not the Drop Pod Assault.

Because, Drop Pod Assault doesn't need to say anything about the unit arriving as part of the ability (again, ability, not action, stop trying to conflate a word not used in the reinforcements rule for the word that actually is in order to try to make your argument work), because Drop Pod Assault includes the unit disembarking from the vehicle. It would need to explicitly state that they DON'T arrive as part of the same ability (which, of course, would mean they don't arrive at all, since if Drop Pod Assault didn't allow them to, they would have no ability to enter the field).

Drop Pod Assault does not tell us to set up the unit at all. Disembark does.

Yes, Drop Pod Assault does tell us to set up the unit. By disembarking them not within 9" of an enemy model. The fact that DPA tells us to use an already establish method to set up the models, doesn't magically mean they didn't tell you to set up the models, it means the developers didn't foresee your need to have every concept restated in 3 sentences when one already established word would do, lest you interpret it as creating some magical sequencing change.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

The only time the units are treated by the DPA rule as arriving as reinforcements is when landing from high orbit, a time when the marines are still embarked upon their transport, which both arrive together and not separately per the rule you cited earlier. Any subsequent disembarkation has nothing to do with High Orbit or reinforcements any longer. Setting up models as a result of a Disembark does not trigger any sort of "arriving as reinforcements" condition and the DPA rule does not claim it does either, especially since it does not set up the models itself.

See, this is where you need to stop thinking rules you've made up don't need to be backed up.

If you are contending that "The only time the units are treated by the DPA rule as arriving as reinforcements is when landing from high orbit", you need to back that up, because it's not what the rules say.

The rules say that certain abilities let units set up off the field (e.g. in orbit), and arrive mid-game as reinforcements. DPA is the rule that lets the drop pod and embarked units do so, and that includes disembarking. Nothing in the rules states that only part of that ability is "treated as arriving as reinforcements", and if you are contending that they do. You. Need. To. Support. That. Contention.

I will never understand people like you, who think they can make any claim they want, and never have to support it.

You are changing the words "set up" from the strategem to deploy to suite your argument.

If you read disembark models are setup after disembarking.

If you read reinforcements

"Setup" also has rules implications under reinforcements.

If you stop trying to make the rules as written setup into "deploy" there is no actual rules issue, your entire argument is based on this false equivalency.

You can setup a transport, and models can be placed inside instead of setup separately. Under "disembark" we are then told "When an unit disembark set it up..."

Therefore the unit is not set up on the battlefield until it disembark. It arrived mid turn as reinforcements and by the actual rules as written , not the replacement of "setup" with deployed you are using, the unit that disembark is an eligible target for the strategem.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I have. You just can't handle the fact that it doesn't agree with your interpretation. The unit is explicitly granted permission to arrive on the field mid-game as reinforcements by the Drop Pod Assault rule. Disembarking is explicitly part of the Drop Pod Assault rule. The Drop Pod Assault rule is the ability that allows them to arrive on the field as reinforcements, which means disembarking is part of their arrival on the field, because it is part of the rule that allows them to arrive. The fact that you've chosen to break off the part of the rule you don't like and say it's not part of the same ability doesn't change that, and you still have yet to back up that assertion. Maybe look up "onus probandi", and stop trying to shift the burden of proof for your interpretation onto me.

Please don't project your own feelings onto me. Disembarking is part of the Drop Pod Assault rule but carried out after the units have arrived as reinforcements. Setting up the carried models is not part of the rule at all. The units carry out the Disembark action as it is worded and your concept of connecting the two is false. This isn't Magic the Gathering. This was all explained previously just a few posts ago.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/740684.page#9623311

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Again, because you seem to be having trouble understanding it, multiple sequential actions can be part of a larger action. If I give you keys to a parked car that isn't on, and say "put this stopped car in motion", you're going to follow a sequence of events to do so. You're going to get in the car, put the key in the ignition, turn it, depress the brake pedal, shift the car into drive, remove your foot from the brake, and apply pressure to the gas pedal. Even though this is specific sequence of multiple events (gasp), it's still all part of "putting the stopped car in motion".

When you activate the drop pod assault rule, you place the drop pod on the table, then you disembark the unit(s) inside, placing them not within 9" of any enemy unit. Even though this is (again, gasp) a sequence of events, it is still all part of the Drop Pod Assault rule, which is the ability that allows the units to arrive from reinforcements.

I am not having trouble understanding how sequential actions can be part of a larger action. Disembarking is part of the DPA rule, we already know this and no one has ever contended it. What you're having difficulty with is understanding is the order the rules are being applied. You're also adding the additional rule that DPA somehow is "THE RULE" that makes things arrive from reinforcements. It is not, it simply is like every other rule that exists and has some steps that involve arriving from reinforcements.

To explain similar to your car example, when I am shooting a target, I check for range then begin firing and allocating wounds one by one. This does not mean that as soon as I kill the last model in range that all of my remaining shots are wasted. There is no requirement to continue checking for range during a shooting attack. The range is checked only ONCE at the start of the Shooting action, this range requirement does not carry over to the end of the action as you would have it do. The Drop Pod Assault and its arrival from reinforcements is checked only ONCE when the models are being setup, except again the only model that is setup as a direct result from high orbit is the drop pod. The marines on board are embarked upon arrival and not valid targets. They disembark as part of a subsequent step but that does not mean we must go back and apply the "range limitations" that were applicable earlier in the action.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Because, Drop Pod Assault doesn't need to say anything about the unit arriving as part of the ability (again, ability, not action, stop trying to conflate a word not used in the reinforcements rule for the word that actually is in order to try to make your argument work), because Drop Pod Assault includes the unit disembarking from the vehicle. It would need to explicitly state that they DON'T arrive as part of the same ability (which, of course, would mean they don't arrive at all, since if Drop Pod Assault didn't allow them to, they would have no ability to enter the field).

I am doing no such thing, feel free to consider action and ability interchangeable. I don't care which you use. Neither helps your case. See above why the Drop Pod Assault rule including disembarking has nothing to do with the sequencing of when the unit actually counts as arriving as reinforcements and when it no longer does, which can still occur within the same action/ability/mcguffin. The action/ability/mcguffin says nothing about the unit being setup as part of the arrival, it sets up the drop pod alone and that is when the unit has arrived. Subsequent disembarkation does not adhere to rules that once applied to the Drop Pod itself earlier in the turn unless you want to cite where it states it does.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Yes, Drop Pod Assault does tell us to set up the unit. By disembarking them not within 9" of an enemy model. The fact that DPA tells us to use an already establish method to set up the models, doesn't magically mean they didn't tell you to set up the models, it means the developers didn't foresee your need to have every concept restated in 3 sentences when one already established word would do, lest you interpret it as creating some magical sequencing change.

That is objectively incorrect. The rules explicitly state to disembark the unit. You are implicitly linking the two actions of disembarking with arriving with no permission to do so. Both have separate rules to follow, both have separate restrictions to obey, and the only overlap rules between the two are the ones explicitly stated, such as the 9" limitation. Any time in the rules we are to treat two separate rules as being the same, we are explicitly told to use the rules for the other thing. Use the normal shooting rules, move as though it were the movement phase, attack as though you charged this turn, etc. Nowhere does this rule claim to disembark as though you are arriving as reinforcements, and that's the implict misconception that you keep propagandizing.


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blaktoof wrote:
You are changing the words "set up" from the strategem to deploy to suite your argument.

No one has changed anything. Transports setup with their units still embarked per the transport rule. The DPA rule says nothing to the contrary, it doesn't even mention setting up the housed unit at all, only of disembarking it.

blaktoof wrote:
If you read disembark models are setup after disembarking.

Eureka, we knew that.

blaktoof wrote:
If you read reinforcements

"Setup" also has rules implications under reinforcements.

Then you are claiming that disembarking from a Rhino that has been on the field all game is "setting up as reinforcements".

blaktoof wrote:
If you stop trying to make the rules as written setup into "deploy" there is no actual rules issue, your entire argument is based on this false equivalency.

False, you are free to use the two interchangeably, I could not care less. Change any of my deploy words into set up and my arguments remain identical. You're trying to rules lawyer your defense by focusing on the choice of words I'm using instead of the words the rules are using, which pertain to Disembark instead of arriving as reinforcements.

blaktoof wrote:
You can setup a transport, and models can be placed inside instead of setup separately. Under "disembark" we are then told "When an unit disembark set it up..."

No, you cannot, pg194 disagrees and the same section of Disembarking states how models are deployed as a single drop.

blaktoof wrote:
Therefore the unit is not set up on the battlefield until it disembark. It arrived mid turn as reinforcements and by the actual rules as written , not the replacement of "setup" with deployed you are using, the unit that disembark is an eligible target for the strategem.

All models embarked on a transport are removed from the battlefield, most are not even on the battlefield when the game starts. Do they count as being reinforcements when they disembark? Your interpretation is inconsistent. Rules are not inconsistent. As I said, you are free to exchange the two, it does not affect anything I am saying. I'm getting rather sick of repeating that is not a "reinforcements" or "deployment" or "setup" issue but an issue of sequencing. So arguments against terminology hold no water because no one is disagreeing on the terms being used. Rather the order of priority and activation and eligibility for a stratagem to be used mid-action, like many stratagems already do.

Again, if you cannot back up your claim that "The Drop Pod Assault and its arrival from reinforcements is checked only ONCE when the models are being setup" or support you interpretation of "when the unit actually counts as arriving as reinforcements and when it no longer does," you have no business making those contentions.

Nowhere in the rules does it tell us this is the case, or that "arriving from reinforcements" is "checked" after the Drop Pod lands, but before the unit disembarks.

The rules only tell us that certain models have abilities that allow them to arrive as reinforcements, DPA is such an ability, and disembarking the unit is part of that ability. Unless you can show something that explicitly states that there is a particular part of the rule where "arriving from reinforcements" is "checked", then we can only go by the rule as written, which highlights the ability itself as the arrival from reinforcements.

I'm done with you. Argument by assertion is a fallacy, not a legitimate argument, and since you refuse to prove your assertion, or even acknowledge that you have a burden to do so, your interpretation is nothing more than meaningless.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Again, if you cannot back up your claim that "The Drop Pod Assault and its arrival from reinforcements is checked only ONCE when the models are being setup" or support you interpretation of "when the unit actually counts as arriving as reinforcements and when it no longer does," you have no business making those contentions.

Please back up your claim that the Drop Pod Assault checks multiple times throughout the action. Shooting doesn't check range multiple times throughout the ability. Assaulting doesn't check eligibility to swing multiple times during a unit's fight phase. Actions that happen after another action are sequential and don't carry over the mandates of the previous action unless explicitly told to do so. Disembarking is an entirely separate step of the Drop Pod Assault ability from arriving from High Orbit by the fact that it is listed separately and occurs after the original model has been set up, concluding any concept of setting up units as reinforcements.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Nowhere in the rules does it tell us this is the case, or that "arriving from reinforcements" is "checked" after the Drop Pod lands, but before the unit disembarks.

Warhammer 40k is a permissive ruleset. If the rules do NOT say something then you do NOT do it. If they don't tell us to check repeatedly then we do not check repeatedly. If they don't tell us to treat the disembarking units as reinforcements even though DPA is not what is actually setting them up but another rule then we do not treat them as reinforcements.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
The rules only tell us that certain models have abilities that allow them to arrive as reinforcements, DPA is such an ability, and disembarking the unit is part of that ability. Unless you can show something that explicitly states that there is a particular part of the rule where "arriving from reinforcements" is "checked, then we can only go by the rule as written, which highlights the ability itself as the arrival from reinforcements.

The rules are written in sequential order to be followed exactly as specified. The ability itself does not set up marines, it asks another rule to do so. The ability itself sets up a drop pod, which is a welcome target for the stratagem. The marines within fall under the jurisdiction of the disembarking rules UNLESS YOU WOULD CARE TO CITE OTHERWISE!

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I'm done with you. Argument by assertion is a fallacy, not a legitimate argument, and since you refuse to prove your assertion, or even acknowledge that you have a burden to do so, your interpretation is nothing more than meaningless.

I've provided actual rule citations and even proved that Reinforcements and Disembarking are different states by nature of their separate movement restrictions. You have provided nothing but false assertions that somehow rules must be completed in their entirety, that arriving as reinforcements applies to Disembarking, and that conditions earlier in a rule must apply throughout its steps.

 Arkaine wrote:

Please back up your claim that the Drop Pod Assault checks multiple times throughout the action. Shooting doesn't check range multiple times throughout the ability. Assaulting doesn't check eligibility to swing multiple times during a unit's fight phase. Actions that happen after another action are sequential and don't carry over the mandates of the previous action unless explicitly told to do so. Disembarking is an entirely separate step of the Drop Pod Assault ability from arriving from High Orbit by the fact that it is listed separately and occurs after the original model has been set up, concluding any concept of setting up units as reinforcements.

Warhammer 40k is a permissive ruleset. If the rules do NOT say something then you do NOT do it. If they don't tell us to check repeatedly then we do not check repeatedly. If they don't tell us to treat the disembarking units as reinforcements even though DPA is not what is actually setting them up but another rule then we do not treat them as reinforcements.

Per your poorly thought out logic, the rules do not EVER tell us to check when a unit is "arriving from reinforcements". The shooting face tells us to check range. Assaulting tells us to check eligibility. So show me where exactly the drop pod assault rules tell us to "check" arrival? By your logic, since we're never given permission to "check" that, the Drop Pod never counts as arriving, and so it's not a valid target either.

The rules don't need to tell us to "check" when the unit is "considered arriving from reinforcements" because they tell us that the ability being used is what lets us do that. Since disembarking the unit is part of that ability, it is part of arriving from reinforcements.

The rules are written in sequential order to be followed exactly as specified. The ability itself does not set up marines, it asks another rule to do so. The ability itself sets up a drop pod, which is a welcome target for the stratagem. The marines within fall under the jurisdiction of the disembarking rules UNLESS YOU WOULD CARE TO CITE OTHERWISE!

I've provided actual rule citations and even proved that Reinforcements and Disembarking are different states by nature of their separate movement restrictions. You have provided nothing but false assertions that somehow rules must be completed in their entirety, that arriving as reinforcements applies to Disembarking, and that conditions earlier in a rule must apply throughout its steps.

Again, you have proved no such thing. You have simply asserted your interpretation as fact that because the DPA rule tells you to "disembark" the unit, and you've decided through your magical thinking that since "disembark" is a different rule, it's not long part of the DPA rule, even though it is the DPA rule that tells you to disembark them (with additional criteria).

So again, unless you can provide any actual citation that indicates there is a specific part of the ability where you "check" that the unit has arrived, or any actual citation that the use of the disembark rule somehow terminates the resolution of the DPA rule it is contained in, you don't have a leg to stand on.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Per your poorly thought out logic, the rules do not EVER tell us to check when a unit is "arriving from reinforcements". The shooting face tells us to check range. Assaulting tells us to check eligibility. So show me where exactly the drop pod assault rules tell us to "check" arrival? By your logic, since we're never given permission to "check" that, the Drop Pod never counts as arriving, and so it's not a valid target either.

False, the reinforcements rule tells us the unit is arriving as reinforcements when it is setup on the battlefield from somewhere like High Orbit. The Drop Pod, per the DPA rule, is setup on the battlefield as a result of High Orbit. The Reinforcements rule labels it arriving as Reinforcements. The units embarked within the drop pod could also be considered arriving as reinforcements, but they are still inside the drop pod when that is true. Disembarking is never setting up on the battlefield from High Orbit. It's setting up from a Drop Pod, which itself setup from High Orbit. You're daisy chaining the permissions instead of realizing that "a rectangle isn't necessarily a square" and disembarkers aren't arriving from High Orbit. They are being setup because the rule that contains High Orbit told them to disembark but only the Drop Pod is specifically being told to setup according to the High Orbit state. The marines have nothing to do with High Orbit and you can't place marines in High Orbit to begin with.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
The rules don't need to tell us to "check" when the unit is "considered arriving from reinforcements" because they tell us that the ability being used is what lets us do that. Since disembarking the unit is part of that ability, it is part of arriving from reinforcements.

And the rules also tell us that the ability itself is only setting up a drop pod as reinforcements. Not the marines. The marines are disembarking from a unit that arrived as reinforcements. The marines have nothing to do with the reinforcements aspect of the DPA rule because they did not arrive from High Orbit, they were embarked in the drop pod which itself was in High Orbit but arrived by disembarking from said Drop Pod.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Again, you have proved no such thing. You have simply asserted your interpretation as fact that because the DPA rule tells you to "disembark" the unit, and you've decided through your magical thinking that since "disembark" is a different rule, it's not long part of the DPA rule, even though it is the DPA rule that tells you to disembark them (with additional criteria).

See page 1 of this thread. Reinforcements are not permitted to move after setting up. Disembarkers are permitted to move after setting up. They are most certainly different rules and you are simply being obstinate about that simple fact because it hurts your argument to acknowledge disembarkers as obeying entirely different rules from reinforcements.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
So again, unless you can provide any actual citation that indicates there is a specific part of the ability where you "check" that the unit has arrived, or any actual citation that the use of the disembark rule somehow terminates the resolution of the DPA rule it is contained in, you dn't have a leg to stand on.

Pg177 Reinforcements and pg183 Transports - Disembark. They are entirely separate rules. Likewise, in a permissive ruleset we do not look for rules that say where we check unless they happen to be there, we look for rules that say X counts as X. A unit disembarking from a transport cannot be considered arriving from reinforcements because per the Reinforcement and Disembark rules leaving a transport is not the same as setting up from High Orbit or Deep Strike or anywhere else. It's leaving a transport. Which has nothing to do with reinforcements.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
I'm done with you. Argument by assertion is a fallacy, not a legitimate argument, and since you refuse to prove your assertion, or even acknowledge that you have a burden to do so, your interpretation is nothing more than meaningless.

Apparently not.

I've had to edit a few posts here - please avoid using unnecessarily antagonistic language (and definitely direct insults!). Our main rule on this site is simply "Be Polite", and it's very possible to have a rules disagreement without resorting to name calling or rude posts.

Thanks all...

AnFéasógMór wrote:

doctortom wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
Placing both units on the battlefield is the same act. The controlling player must finish both. Both counts as reinforcements. I'm out.

If it's the same act, then obviously you should be able to place both units on tha battlefield in either order, or in fact placing some of the infantry first, then the drop pod, then the rest of the infantry. If you're placing some infantry first, how are you able to judge how far away they are from the drop pod? No, it's a sequential process, with the drop pod being placed first, and after that the infantry being placed. This makes it two acts.

The drop pod is placed, with the infantry inside. At this point the infantry count as having arrived from reserves. If you want to treat them as reinforcements, they are reinforcements at the point the drop pod lands with them inside - they are not a valid target at the time you treat them as reinforcements. At that point, they are treated as any other unit embarked in a vehicle. When they disembark, they are disembarking from a vehicle on the board, they are not counting as reinforcements coming in from Reserve. They count as any other unit inside a transport counts.

Something can be sequential and still part of the same "act, or more accurately in this case, the same ability. You place the drop pod and then you disembark, but both are part of the ability that lets the units arrive as reinforcements. As yet, not a single person as been able to put forth a shred of evidence that the word "disembark" magically ends the resolution of the rule that lets the unit arrive from reinforcements other than wishful thinking and made up timing structures.

Drop Pod Assault is what let's the units arrive as reinforcements. Disembarking from the drop pod is part of that ability. The units have not finished arriving as reinforcements until after they disembark

That doesn't mean you get to ignore the effects of doing things in sequence. The Drop Pod arrives with the infantry inside. You can target the drop pod as reinforcements. Can you target the infantry then, if you treat them as reinforcements? No, they're embarked inside the drop pod, and the rules say they can't be affected. Once the drop pod has touched down, reinforcements have arrived. The unit is treated as a normal unit embarked in a vehicle. If it had been another transport besides a drop pod that could deep strike, the unit inside wouldn't automatically die after the third turn if they stayed in the vehicle, yet with your logic they would still be reinforcements and would be destroyed. The infantry inside the drop pod arrive, and their counting as refinforcements will end when the pod has landed; when they disembark they are a normal unit disembarking. It doesn't matter if it's one or multiple abilities, there's still a sequence involved, and where you are in the sequence matters.

Short version: If you would like to claim that Disembarking and Reinforcements are not separate rules, then which rules do we follow when the Space Marines land?

The Disembark rules grant them permission to move.
The Reinforcement rules deny them permission to move.

Are you saying the disembarking Space Marines are not disembarking and therefore obey the no move Reinforcement rule? Or are they not Reinforcements and therefore obey the move permission Disembark rule?

If you see them as both Reinforcements and Disembarkers, which seems to be your stance, then can they move after landing or not? Which takes precedence, and more importantly, WHY?

 Arkaine wrote:

False, the reinforcements rule tells us the unit is arriving as reinforcements when it is setup on the battlefield from somewhere like High Orbit. The Drop Pod, per the DPA rule, is setup on the battlefield as a result of High Orbit. The Reinforcements rule labels it arriving as Reinforcements. The units embarked within the drop pod could also be considered arriving as reinforcements, but they are still inside the drop pod when that is true. Disembarking is never setting up on the battlefield from High Orbit. It's setting up from a Drop Pod, which itself setup from High Orbit. You're daisy chaining the permissions instead of realizing that "a rectangle isn't necessarily a square" and disembarkers aren't arriving from High Orbit. They are being setup because the rule that contains High Orbit told them to disembark but only the Drop Pod is specifically being told to setup according to the High Orbit state.

Except that it doesn't

"Instead of being setup on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve,etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements"

You wanna show me where in that rule it says that when the unit leaves orbit is when it has "arrived on the battlefield" or that "High Orbit" is what allows it to "arrive on the battlefield"? Hint: it isn't there, and there is no rule anywhere in the game for "Orbit" or "High Orbit". "High Orbit" isn't what lets the unit set up on the field, DPA is. "High Orbit" is nothing more than a fluff term for the particular imaginary off the board place the units are set up in at the start of the game. DPA tells us that we can bring the units in mid-battle, and it tells us how, and that includes disembarking the unit inside the drop pod.

The marines have nothing to do with High Orbit and you can't place marines in High Orbit to begin with.

Except for the rule I quoted several posts ago that explicitly states that the Drop Pod along with the unit(s) embarked inside are set up in orbit


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doctortom wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

doctortom wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
Placing both units on the battlefield is the same act. The controlling player must finish both. Both counts as reinforcements. I'm out.

If it's the same act, then obviously you should be able to place both units on tha battlefield in either order, or in fact placing some of the infantry first, then the drop pod, then the rest of the infantry. If you're placing some infantry first, how are you able to judge how far away they are from the drop pod? No, it's a sequential process, with the drop pod being placed first, and after that the infantry being placed. This makes it two acts.

The drop pod is placed, with the infantry inside. At this point the infantry count as having arrived from reserves. If you want to treat them as reinforcements, they are reinforcements at the point the drop pod lands with them inside - they are not a valid target at the time you treat them as reinforcements. At that point, they are treated as any other unit embarked in a vehicle. When they disembark, they are disembarking from a vehicle on the board, they are not counting as reinforcements coming in from Reserve. They count as any other unit inside a transport counts.

Something can be sequential and still part of the same "act, or more accurately in this case, the same ability. You place the drop pod and then you disembark, but both are part of the ability that lets the units arrive as reinforcements. As yet, not a single person as been able to put forth a shred of evidence that the word "disembark" magically ends the resolution of the rule that lets the unit arrive from reinforcements other than wishful thinking and made up timing structures.

Drop Pod Assault is what let's the units arrive as reinforcements. Disembarking from the drop pod is part of that ability. The units have not finished arriving as reinforcements until after they disembark

That doesn't mean you get to ignore the effects of doing things in sequence. The Drop Pod arrives with the infantry inside. You can target the drop pod as reinforcements. Can you target the infantry then, if you treat them as reinforcements? No, they're embarked inside the drop pod, and the rules say they can't be affected. Once the drop pod has touched down, reinforcements have arrived. The unit is treated as a normal unit embarked in a vehicle. If it had been another transport besides a drop pod that could deep strike, the unit inside wouldn't automatically die after the third turn if they stayed in the vehicle, yet with your logic they would still be reinforcements and would be destroyed. The infantry inside the drop pod arrive, and their counting as refinforcements will end when the pod has landed; when they disembark they are a normal unit disembarking. It doesn't matter if it's one or multiple abilities, there's still a sequence involved, and where you are in the sequence matters.

Except that that makes zero sense with what I'm saying. The unit inside the vehicle would still have arrived from reinforcements. They simply wouldn't have been required to disembark as part of the rule that allowed them to do so, meaning there is zero conflict with the arriving by turn three rule.

Arkaine wrote:Short version: If you would like to claim that Disembarking and Reinforcements are not separate rules, then which rules do we follow when the Space Marines land?

The Disembark rules grant them permission to move.
The Reinforcement rules deny them permission to move.

Are you saying the disembarking Space Marines are not disembarking and therefore obey the no move Reinforcement rule? Or are they not Reinforcements and therefore obey the move permission Disembark rule?

If you see them as both Reinforcements and Disembarkers, which seems to be your stance, then can they move after landing or not? Which takes precedence, and more importantly, WHY?

You're creating a conflict that only exists because of your claimed sequencing.

A unit that arrives from reinforcements is barred from moving after it arrives. If disembarking is part of their arrival, then they haven't moved after they arrive.



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Also, just to point out the flaw in your logic, if they have finished arriving from reinforcements after the drop pod lands, then they cannot legally disembark, because they are barred from moving after they arrive. You actually did a significantly better job of disproving your point than you did disproving mine.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Except that it doesn't

"Instead of being setup on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve,etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements"

You wanna show me where in that rule it says that when the unit leaves orbit is when it has "arrived on the battlefield" or that "High Orbit" is what allows it to "arrive on the battlefield"? Hint: it isn't there, and there is no rule anywhere in the game for "Orbit" or "High Orbit". "High Orbit" isn't what lets the unit set up on the field, DPA is. "High Orbit" is nothing more than a fluff term for the particular imaginary off the board place the units are set up in at the start of the game. DPA tells us that we can bring the units in mid-battle, and it tells us how, and that includes disembarking the unit inside the drop pod.

You must be reading that rule very differently. It states that many units have the ability to be setup in high orbit. DPA is an ability that allows you to setup in high orbit. Arriving on the field as reinforcements applies to when you are coming from that alternate setup location. You're misreading the statement and thinking it means that "many units have an ability like DPA". Except that's not what it says, try replacing the ability with DPA. "Many units have Drop Pod Assault to be setup in high orbit"? No... many units have the ability to be setup elsewhere is what the rule states.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Except for the rule I quoted several posts ago that explicitly states that the Drop Pod along with the unit(s) embarked inside are set up in orbit

Context matters, I said that pertaining to arriving from it as part of the disembark. But please, quote me out of context, I'll survive. Keyword in what you just said was EMBARKED. The units EMBARKED are in High Orbit. The units come down from High Orbit EMBARKED within the drop pod. When they disembark, they are not coming from high orbit.


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AnFéasógMór wrote:
Except that that makes zero sense with what I'm saying. The unit inside the vehicle would still have arrived from reinforcements. They simply wouldn't have been required to disembark as part of the rule that allowed them to do so, meaning there is zero conflict with the arriving by turn three rule.

Are you confused here? We're not saying the unit isn't arriving from reinforcements. We're saying the unit is embarked on the vehicle when it does so. You're only permitted to shoot at the unit at that time. When the drop pod has landed and the gamestate has shifted to being officially on the board, as in no longer "arriving", then and only then do the units inside disembark which renders them ineligible for the stratagem. You are attempting to apply the statagem to any unit that has ARRIVED as reinforcements instead of units ARRIVING as reinforcements. The stratagem does not grant you to permission to arbitrarily choose a unit that has sometime this turn arrived on the table as reinforcements, only ones actively in the process of doing so. The marines were still embarked when they were considered arriving. Disembarking a transport does not treat the unit as arriving from some High Orbit or other setup play area because embarked units are removed from play and not considered "setup" ANYWHERE. You can say they were in High Orbit when the transport was in High Orbit. But when the transport is on the battlefield, as the drop pod now is, then the marines are likewise considered on the battlefield. They are disembarking onto the battlefield from the battlefield, not reinforcements.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

You're creating a conflict that only exists because of your claimed sequencing.

A unit that arrives from reinforcements is barred from moving after it arrives. If disembarking is part of their arrival, then they haven't moved after they arrive.

Not at all, and sequencing is very much a part of the game in every stratagem's timing, in every phase and substep, and even the Sequencing rule itself lends credence here.

What I asked you is whether after the marines are on the table, and forget any of this stratagem nonsense, can I then move the Marines, assuming it wasn't the end of the movement phase? Are they disembarking or are they reinforcements? And why?

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Also, just to point out the flaw in your logic, if they have finished arriving from reinforcements after the drop pod lands, then they cannot legally disembark, because they are barred from moving after they arrive. You actually did a significantly better job of disproving your point than you did disproving mine.

Incorrect because as I just pointed out over the past three pages, I'm not the one claiming they are arriving as reinforcements. You are.

Additionally, even if you wanted to call them reinforcements, the DPA rule specifically grants them permission to disembark, just as the immediate disembark of a destroyed transport does. No permission to move is required because they are not moving, they merely count as having moved, and are only doing so because a rule told them to.

Unless you want to claim that if I moved my transport (denying the ability to disembark) and then you blow it up same turn that I somehow am not permitted to disembark even though the rules tell me to.

You took the time to reply to my points, however your replies were just comments unrelated to anything you quoted so it's not very productive to comment on those.

The units are not set up during deployment, this makes them reinforcements.

The drop pod and the unit embarked on it both arrive mid turn, making them both reinforcements.

The rules for disembark state when the unit disembarks it is setup.

An unit arriving turn 1-3 at the end of the movement phase, is arriving midturn.

The drop pod is setup, then the unit inside immediately disembarks. From the transport rule for disembark the unit is setup after disembarking. In this case the unit is arriving mid turn also making it t reinforcements.

RAW the strategem asks for an unit setup within 12" arriving as reinforcements. The squad disembarking(set up happens at disembark according to written rule) arrived mid turn making it reinforcements that setup, if the squad is placed within 12" it is an eligible target for the strategem RAW.

AnFéasógMór wrote:


Except that that makes zero sense with what I'm saying. .

Then I suggest that the problem is with what you're saying.

 doctortom wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:


Except that that makes zero sense with what I'm saying. .

Then I suggest that the problem is with what you're saying.

Not really, since what I'm talking about very clearly refers to the period in which the rule that allows the unit to arrive as reinforcements is resolved, so trying to compare that to units disembarking from a vehicle at a point completely after that ability is resolved makes about much sense as comparing kangaroos and orange juice.

You making weird logical leaps with what I said isn't a problem with what I said.

You are not alone in questioning that Arkaine has made weird logical leaps. He's basically applying 7th Edition rule logic leaps to 8th Edition. The designers have repeatedly said each rule will give you the permissions and exceptions granted.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:


Except that that makes zero sense with what I'm saying. .

Then I suggest that the problem is with what you're saying.

Not really, since what I'm talking about very clearly refers to the period in which the rule that allows the unit to arrive as reinforcements is resolved, so trying to compare that to units disembarking from a vehicle at a point completely after that ability is resolved makes about much sense as comparing kangaroos and orange juice.

You making weird logical leaps with what I said isn't a problem with what I said.