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Taking GW kits as the standard, I do like the fact that now all the options in the book are on the sprues; when I was a little Timmy I often had to make due with whatever the kit came with, which meant I couldn't optimize my lists because I couldn't make a lot of the options (indeed a lot of my Chaos Terminators still have "count as" weapons simply because I couldn't get the correct ones in sufficient numbers or find enough alternatives).

However converting has always been the most fun part of the hobby for me, especially using bitz in creative applications. Like the Greater Daemon conversion article from Black Gobbo, where they made a googly eyed cthulhu esque greater daemon by turning a lictor's body upside down and using the ball joints originally meant for it's legs into giant bulbous eyes.

The latter days will never go away, but we'll be seeing less and less "unique" armies and more and more standardized Armies. Without the necessity to do so a lot less people will try to do so, since following the instructions is just so much easier

I would say the newer plastic character sprues are a bit more specific in how they go together.
I think the observation is that it is harder than it was to convert, so new modelers may have greater difficulty than we (as in, us old farts) had starting out.
The good thing is hacking up plastic is much easier than metal that you need to pin and green stuff within an inch of it's life.

I still like to convert, since I have had lots of practice maybe I do not notice a difficulty.
As long as models are made with weapon and gear options, they should be inherently easy to swap what you want.
I have found I stab myself a lot less than in the past at the very least while converting models.

We really are going to need that Mad Doc Random Ramblings thread soon, aren't we?

You're just worried he'll break your post count

You could argue that it was unfair of GW to allow options on models that you couldn't get without converting. If a model with X equipment is allowed by the game, by rights GW should make that model available via normal means (mono pose cast or options on a multipart sprue). Making that possible may have constricted options a tad, but then again, look at the weapon options on Plague Marines - there's plenty of options there. Primaris Marines were supposed to be mass produced cookie-cutter reinforcements, so a more standardized load-out makes sense for them. If you wanted to use Primaris for true-scale marines, there's plenty of room for conversion there.

That said, tons of conversions have NOTHING to do with model options. My 5th edition Death Guard were heavily converted with tyranid bits and green stuff. None of it was necessary at all, as all the options I fielded were 100% available. Modelers that want to convert today can still convert as much as they want - modelers who don't want to convert are no longer forced to. That's not being 'spoiled', IMO. People will convert because they want cool unique models, rather than having to convert because the option they want is locked behind a skill-wall.

Maybe its because GW and others are targeting younger less hobby skilled customers?
And so assume simple standard kits are the ones to push.And that those inclined to individualism would paint and convert their forces as they want to?

Also W.D. is now just a minatures catalog promoting standard models.

Its no longer a game supplement and hobby magazine.(There used to be a few cool conversion ideas using non GW parts!)

Given that Blanchitsu and the IG conversion articles are in the latest WD, GW is still catering to converters. The GSC Hybrid set that came out last year spawned a slew of conversions on several sites including the Shrine to John Blanche, aka the Ammo Bunker.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Warmachine's rules set requires a tighter control of conversions, Otherwise you can gain a lot of in game advantages with modeling.

No you can't.... Warmachine rules are completely independent of the model in every way.

Is that a mark 3 thing?

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Warmachine's rules set requires a tighter control of conversions, Otherwise you can gain a lot of in game advantages with modeling.

No you can't.... Warmachine rules are completely independent of the model in every way.

Is that a mark 3 thing?

No, it was that way in MkII as well, models take up the area their bases cover and have a specified height depending on base size.

Base overhang has always been a problem, which is why you use proxy bases. It's like "wobbly model syndrome" in 40k. You can also butt charge.

As somebody who started all this hobby malarky before GW (or anybody else) had plastic kits there's a load more converting going on than when I started

although GW and the other companies did plenty of that for you with most figures re-appearing with head/weapon swaps later on

if you did your own you needed to hack up metal minis with no more than a craft knife (no dremmel either back them) not simple

then in came plastic and conversions got a lot easier and the dremmel appeared to improve things still further,

the first great flowering various companies rules teams went 'it would be cool if....' without talking to the sculptors meaning rules without models so converting was often needed if you really wanted to be WYSIWYG above and beyond converting to just make something cool and unique to you

and as more and more stuff appeared in plastic both got easier and easier,

but now the big players are much tighter in terms on only having rules of models they make (and it's not as if GW is the only one to do this most of the other big players are the same, if they put out rules the models are there or coming shortly)

so if you convert it's because you want to rather than have to which is probably a better scene all round, fewer knife injuries, more time to actually game for those that don't like converting, generally easier pick up games as most of the time people know what a model is (even the best conversion can be confusing, and less well done ones can be a nightmare), and for those that do enjoy converting (like me) theres a wealth of plastic and resin bits to play with before you have to learn to sculpt which you'll probably end up doing eventually anyway

TLOS is really to blame for this. When the dimensions of the model come into play as part of the game conversions get frowned upon due to "modeling for advantage"

That said I still see a lot of conversions on the table in GW games (other games not so much because of how kits are designed/models released), I think GWs desire is to move away from it being a need to it being a want. No one should have to convert to field a unit on the table, but if you want to make something different and cool great. Just look at the new IG book with kit bashes in the pictures section for different regiments. It is obvious they are still encouraging it, they just aren't requiring it as they have in the past.


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 Cream Tea wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Warmachine's rules set requires a tighter control of conversions, Otherwise you can gain a lot of in game advantages with modeling.

No you can't.... Warmachine rules are completely independent of the model in every way.

Is that a mark 3 thing?

No, it was that way in MkII as well, models take up the area their bases cover and have a specified height depending on base size.

Base overhang has always been a problem, which is why you use proxy bases. It's like "wobbly model syndrome" in 40k. You can also butt charge.

yup other games that are more abstract with LOS rules actually make it easier for conversion. WM just always catered to a crowd less concerned with converting, and from a purely competitive standpoint conversions can be an unfair advantage in some games (beyond pose changes and head swaps) counts as armies are an issue if your opponent continually has to keep straight what is what.

Don't forget that you used to be able to order any metal bit or individual plastic sprue from GW back in the day. The elimination of the bits order has done more to curtail conversions for me than anything else. I still have the bits bible from 2004!



Sure, you can still get plastic bits from ebay, but you're generally ordering them in larger quantities or bundled with other things you don't actually need. And this is assuming there's even stock available for the bits you want. It's a lot more expensive than it used to be (hard to imagine).


That said, the various Inq28 projects keep the conversion light burning, even if I can only appreciate it from a distance.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Warmachine's rules set requires a tighter control of conversions, Otherwise you can gain a lot of in game advantages with modeling.

No you can't.... Warmachine rules are completely independent of the model in every way.

Erm, yes you can. Have you never used a deathclock? Confusion over what a model is is part of why this rule is in place.

 The Power Cosmic wrote:
Don't forget that you used to be able to order any metal bit or individual plastic sprue from GW back in the day. The elimination of the bits order has done more to curtail conversions for me than anything else. I still have the bits bible from 2004!



Sure, you can still get plastic bits from ebay, but you're generally ordering them in larger quantities or bundled with other things you don't actually need. And this is assuming there's even stock available for the bits you want. It's a lot more expensive than it used to be (hard to imagine).


That said, the various Inq28 projects keep the conversion light burning, even if I can only appreciate it from a distance.

The Bits Wagon was a treat when it rolled into town. I miss being able to order individual parts right from GW. Made customizing your army to suit you so much easier than sifting through the eBay bits sellers who are charging an arm and a leg for the popular bits. I still buy them, because I want to make my army a certain way to suit my vision of them.

My favorite part of the hobby has always been the converting and customizing aspect. Being able to create an army that is truly your own, your own characters and background is why I still play. It gives me an attachment to my army, an makes the game more fun to me. I found it hard to develop that attachment with other games that are character driven (Warmachine, Malifaux, Guild Ball) and lack the ability to create your own army/crew/force from the ground up.

Eh, bunch of cranky old farts whinging while looking back with rose tinted glasses.

Most converting back in the old day was either converting to access game rules, converting because you couldn't afford the proper model or converting because the official model looked like crap.

Most of those conversions looked like crap anyway.

I still have my crap looking Saurus spearmen conversions from back when I couldn't afford regiments of metal Saurus and the plastic ones were only armed with a hand weapon

The number of actual good looking conversions, the ones that stopped you in your tracks to investigate further, they're more common now than they were before simply because the models they use as a basis for them are plastic. Back in the day even if a plastic model existed it usually looked like junk next to the metals, so high end converters would start with metals anyway.

Models off the shelves these days look better than they ever have before and often there's less need to convert. There's never been more models on the market that I want to paint just for the sake of painting them. But the people crazy enough to have a vision then actually see it through with awesome conversions hasn't lessened.

I loved being able to hand my RPG players a big ol' box of parts, and letting them build their character if they wanted.

Yeah, monopose models may look better as individual models, but I greatly preferred being able to mix and match pieces to make the character that I wanted.

The new models don't even tempt me in that way - I used to buy lots of plastic WHFB miniatures, and mostly for armies that I had no interest in playing in the game.

I would buy them and use them for D&D.

The Auld Grump - then GW sent letters around to the FLGSs, asking them not to let people use GW miniatures for any non-GW games... said letters being promptly circular filed.

Those letters never made any sense to me - why complain why people were buying their stuff, as long as they were buying?

*EDIT* Net result of monopose plastics? I don't buy GW miniatures these days - and that is a big chunk of why.

 The Power Cosmic wrote:
Don't forget that you used to be able to order any metal bit or individual plastic sprue from GW back in the day. The elimination of the bits order has done more to curtail conversions for me than anything else. I still have the bits bible from 2004!



Sure, you can still get plastic bits from ebay, but you're generally ordering them in larger quantities or bundled with other things you don't actually need. And this is assuming there's even stock available for the bits you want. It's a lot more expensive than it used to be (hard to imagine).


That said, the various Inq28 projects keep the conversion light burning, even if I can only appreciate it from a distance.

I do agree that the old bits catalogue was great.

On the flip side, because of so many dual kits these days (which I'm still 50/50 on whether I like them or not because they're always so expensive) most people have a bits box that is way better than it was back when you could order bits directly.

If you do your modelling with friends these days you often have incredible access to parts.

I would say that Infinity absolutely needs conversions. There's still s lot of units in that game with rules and profiles, but no models. Or, in some cases the model exists, but it's an old, ugly figure that doesn't fit the newer aesthetics. Conversions are a good way around that.

As one of the "young 'uns" I see getting ragged on constantly in various sections of dakka, I'd like to challenge some of your assertions and broad brushes.
I find converting, from a simple head swap to some rather more ambitious projects (admittedly nothing made from scratch because i know it'd look like arse) really enjoyable, even when there's no incentive to do so for rules reasons, and even though it adds time from sprue to playing. And as far as I'm aware, generation 'me me me' hasn't had our brains and attention spans totally fried just yet, certainly in the conversion department, because I see a lot of conversions in the armies of young 'uns.
Maybe model companies are going down the more static route for greater consumer ease, but it's not so bad. The new nurgle marines have a level of detail that does require a certain level of monoposing and a little less of the old standardised options. And the primaris are still just as convertable as the old marines, I actually find that a simple head swap to the MK VII helmet makes them look so much better, and everyone has tons of spares lying around.

I'm not seeing any end to converting. Most people with at least the minimum enjoyment of making kits will do something to make it "their" model.

There are loads of FB groups dedicated to all sorts of games and themes chock full of conversions. There's a decent SWA group where half the poss are Warbands or terrain converted from all sorts of gubbinz. Ditto the Battlegroup one/Club groups/Specialist games/etc.

I suppose it depends on the frame of reference, if it's 40k where allot I players seem to begrudge the notion of buying models much less painting them then yeah you might not see allot of it but there's plenty about.

I'd suggest as well that the "monopose" stuff the GW seems to be putting out is no barrier to converting. It's plastic afterall, it doesn't get any easier to convert.

 notprop wrote:
I'm not seeing any end to converting. Most people with at least the minimum enjoyment of making kits will do something to make it "their" model.

There are loads of FB groups dedicated to all sorts of games and themes chock full of conversions. There's a decent SWA group where half the poss are Warbands or terrain converted from all sorts of gubbinz. Ditto the Battlegroup one/Club groups/Specialist games/etc.

I suppose it depends on the frame of reference, if it's 40k where allot I players seem to begrudge the notion of buying models much less painting them then yeah you might not see allot of it but there's plenty about.

I'd suggest as well that the "monopose" stuff the GW seems to be putting out is no barrier to converting. It's plastic afterall, it doesn't get any easier to convert.

Yes, yes it does 'get easier' - the more points of articulation, and the more variety of parts, the easier it is to modify.

The old , multi-pose, models were a lot easier to convert, or even just mix and match.

The Auld Grump

Even after 20 years with GW models, I still convert my models all the time, even from the new ranges. I have a skirmish collection of a dozen Stormcast, who all have headswaps with bareheaded Space Marine heads, several of which had to have the ear-comms removed and a new ear sculpted in so the head would have no tech-bitz.

Lord Relictor with head and staff swap:


I just recently made this custom (albino to add some character) Orc Shaman from a Savage Orc standard bearer I bought as a single at GenCon, simply by cutting down/resculpting the standard:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I'm not seeing any end to converting. Most people with at least the minimum enjoyment of making kits will do something to make it "their" model.

There are loads of FB groups dedicated to all sorts of games and themes chock full of conversions. There's a decent SWA group where half the poss are Warbands or terrain converted from all sorts of gubbinz. Ditto the Battlegroup one/Club groups/Specialist games/etc.

I suppose it depends on the frame of reference, if it's 40k where allot I players seem to begrudge the notion of buying models much less painting them then yeah you might not see allot of it but there's plenty about.

I'd suggest as well that the "monopose" stuff the GW seems to be putting out is no barrier to converting. It's plastic afterall, it doesn't get any easier to convert.

Yes, yes it does 'get easier' - the more points of articulation, and the more variety of parts, the easier it is to modify.

The old , multi-pose, models were a lot easier to convert, or even just mix and match.

The Auld Grump

I think it depends whether we're talking about "just mix and match" or a really nice conversion that someone might enter in to a painting competition.

The former, multipose models are great, the latter, it's often not a big deal because even multipose models will often have aesthetic compromises to make them such so a lot of work has to go in to make them look decent.

I like converting stuff. I like making unique miniatures. Back before I had the means to purchase large amounts of metal stuff for Necromunda, and the Orlock/Goliaths could only be bought via bitz order, I made unique miniatures using the plastic minis from the Necromunda box and my stash of bits. I've got an Orlock with a 2nd Ed CC sprue Marine Power Fist. I've got a Goliath with the same powerfist, after I cut off his big knife-wielding arm with a pair of nail scissors! I turned parts from a hand flamer and the handle of a power axe into a web pistol. I've got an Orlock heavy holding the Heavy Bolter from the original Land Raider kit!

I've always found kitbashing to be tremendous fun, so much so that I got 90 of the 'Mutants' GW put out when the EoT campaign came out. It was a bag that had a sprue of Catachans, a sprue or Orks, a sprue of Zombies and a Chaos Mutation sprue. It was enough, if you were clever, to make 15 miniatures. And I went even further. I challenged myself to make miniatures using as many pieces as possible. I've got one miniature who uses parts from the Ork, Zombie, Chaos Marauder, metal Necromunda weapons and that cut-off Goliath knife arm from the one I mentioned above. I've got a guy who has parts from the Chaos vehicle upgrade sprue to make unique spikes on top of an Ork shoulder pad, and he's wielding a Marauder Champion's sword and a CSM power fist. I've been doing strange things like that ever since I first used a spare 2nd Ed Hive Tyrant head on a 2nd Ed metal Chaos Terminator body.

I save - horde! - bitz from all sorts of places for later use, just to create interesting things. I made a Deathwatch army using bitz I had collected over the years, making tons and tons of unique minis and poses using the extensive Space Marine range and the wealth of bits you got across everything from my original Warriors of the Imperium kits (where the best and most posable Marine arms come from) right through to the newer Stern/Vanguard kits. Can you do the same thing with these guys? Or these? I doubt it.

I've made unique miniatures for single games, using parts from all sorts of the GW range to make things that look like nothing else.

And now we have things like this, or worse, these*. Amazing looking kits with tons and tons of detail, simply magnificent looking... but what can you do with them? All the bits in these kits only go with the other bits these kit. Joins are made in a specific manner that stop cross-pollination of kits.

And part of it is just this cynical need to "stop" the bits makers and 3rd party companies from 'stealing' from them. It's asinine.

 Fifty wrote:
Is it an attack or good-natured ribbing?

It's quite clearly spam. There's the can and everything.




*For the record, I own the Deathshroud kit. I think it looks amazing. When they first showed them off I was blown away. A full unit of 7 I said, all the way with this amazing kit. It's going to be the Nurgle version of this. It wasn't. It cost the same, but it wasn't. Now I don't want a unit of 7, 'cause they'll be three poses... and that's it. No variety. No choice. Difficult to kit bash as the kit only works in one way. Such a wasted opportunity. Such a squandering of potential.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I'm not seeing any end to converting. Most people with at least the minimum enjoyment of making kits will do something to make it "their" model.

There are loads of FB groups dedicated to all sorts of games and themes chock full of conversions. There's a decent SWA group where half the poss are Warbands or terrain converted from all sorts of gubbinz. Ditto the Battlegroup one/Club groups/Specialist games/etc.

I suppose it depends on the frame of reference, if it's 40k where allot I players seem to begrudge the notion of buying models much less painting them then yeah you might not see allot of it but there's plenty about.

I'd suggest as well that the "monopose" stuff the GW seems to be putting out is no barrier to converting. It's plastic afterall, it doesn't get any easier to convert.

Yes, yes it does 'get easier' - the more points of articulation, and the more variety of parts, the easier it is to modify.

The old , multi-pose, models were a lot easier to convert, or even just mix and match.

The Auld Grump

Kit basing isn't really the same thing as converting. But whether it's multi or mono pose, so long as it's plastic your gonna have an easier time if you are converting.

I'm looking at those new death guard, and even if they were "monopose", they're still easier to convert than what I've been used to. I had at one point twenty-odd converted metal Escher models - that was hard work, carving away rifles held close to the body, gently bending arms and hoping metal fatigue didn't make 'em snap, carving and filing away where the part was too thick to cut with clipper, etc. It's a doddle these days.

Oh plastic will always be easier to convert. It's just the latest kits feel like a weird step backwards.

Whilst most will have some flexibility, the sculpts are of such detail, it makes simple conversions that much harder.

 Alpharius wrote:
We really are going to need that Mad Doc Random Ramblings thread soon, aren't we?

Are maybe a link to your personal Blog Site?

Interesting tact from a MOD. A guy starts ernest discussions on the board and gets knocked down by you of all people. What do you contribute again?

 Hollow wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
We really are going to need that Mad Doc Random Ramblings thread soon, aren't we?

Are maybe a link to your personal Blog Site?

Interesting tact from a MOD. A guy starts ernest discussions on the board and gets knocked down by you of all people. What do you contribute again?

I actually thought the same thing. The mods here are usually above this sort of comment. I didn't say anything because I'm erring on Alpharius's side and assuming there is some familiarity there and that it was just good-natured ribbing. I visit often enough to recognize a lot of the posters, but not often enough to know the "relationships" between posters. A new visitor to the site might see it and think "nope. not registering if the mods give people crap".

As the OP, I took it in good humour.

I recommend everyone else do to

The way I feel honestly is that, I enjoy the painting more than building part more. and while I love to combine compatible kits, sawing, hacking and greenstuffing isnt fun for me.