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MrMoustaffa wrote: You also have a nasty tendency for people to not buy the books for FW units, which means there's no way to see what the rules for these units are. You then have to take the opponent's word for it. This doesn't sound like a big deal but this can be a common issue, both intentionally and accidentally. As much as I love programs like Battlescribe, they cause a massive amount of issues with people not reading their rules. Not just for FW, but even just general codexes too. I cannot count the amount of times I've had to correct new players on their own armies, armies I don't even play, because they only looked at the rules on battlescribe and haven't hardly even cracked open their codex. Tau players who never realized their jump suits fly because Battlescribe doesn't do keywords, Guard players not knowing their orders because they didn't see it on the battlescribe roster, tyranid players not knowing psychic abilities because it doesn't show up directly under the main statline. It's a bit ridiculous, and naturally with FW's books costing so much this makes it even more rare someone actually has their forgeworld book on them than someone just bringing their standard codex.
Easy solution for this: Enforce on tournaments "no rules to show, no model on game". Works pretty well in Finland. Can't imagine tournament where somebody would be allowed WITHOUT rules at hand.
Of course doesn't solve player not reading book but at least opponent can check rules himself if he's unfamiliar with them.
Lord Ruby34 wrote: One thing that my store has considered and may implement is allowing forge world rules, but with proxy models allowed. I'm personally in support of that option, but the Store Owner isn't a fan. It seems like a good way to keep the price down while still allowing those who want to play with their forge world models and rules able to do so. It's my personal preferred solution, although I'm aware that it isn't a perfect one.
Why would the store owner complain if conversions of FW models is allowed at their events? Your player base would still be buying models from the store. The store could buy the index as well to cover the 8ed units and sell it on their shelves. Seems like a fine solution to the supposed desire of the store owner to keep the price of playing down. IMO the more threats a player has to plan for in a given meta the less likely they are to be able to focus on one specific gimmick to unbalance their games in their favor.
I agree, and have suggested this. I will probably do so again. Although, to be clear we weren't just talking about conversions, but Counts As something close to a forge world equivalent as well.
cuda1179 wrote:I once had a guy say that people that buy FW products are just paying to win.
However, this guy also had the opinion that scratch-builds shouldn't be allowed in the store because if you can't afford the game you shouldn't play it.
I guess he didn't like poor people, or rich people.
Wow is he going to hate my list with 10 Arvus Lighters!
In my area there's no official ban. We simply dislike FW stuff, no one is interested in the models/units and FW prices discourage people to buy that resin.
The whole FW ban debate is rather amusing to me, as someone who missed the whole 4th, 5th, 6th edition “fiasco” with the units.
The way I see things now (as someone who came back for Warhammer Fest 2017 and 8th ed), is that people seem to tar everything FW with the same brush, and often seem to think including FW in your army = auto win. From what I’ve seen, and read up on in terms of event results, sure, some units are making a regular appearance in top armies, but armies that don’t include FW are doing just as well in major events.
With the advent of Chapter Approved changing some FW points costs (based on Malefic Lord changes I expect any changes are going to be either too much of a reduction or too much of an increase, with no middle ground), I think the time of “all FW is broken and never supported or updated” is coming to an end.
Sure, the price can, at times, be a deciding factor on whether or not to buy a unit or model, but, by punishing someone who saves up to buy that one centre-piece model/unit just because another hasn’t/doesn’t want to/can’t will only have a negative impact on the growth of the hobby. Also, with everything now being online and easy to order and get delivered, accessibility is at an all time high for FW. The same goes for the FW books. They were priced the same as the Indices and also had a digital version. Anyone claiming that they are in-accessible to the average player is just wrong.
An example I used previously in this debate was GW conscript spam vs something like an Elysian army from a cost point of view. As it stood, to buy enough models for the conscript units (talking 120-200 models) and then the cost of the rest of the army, you’d be spending more on GW plastic for those units, than an entire 2k Elysian FW army. So, if FW is in-accessible due to cost, then, TO’s also need to then ban certain army builds that also cost upwards of a certain cost to buy.
An example of this, is Brandon Grant’s winning Guard list at the SoCal Open. To go out and buy his army right now from GW (all of it is GW bar the mortar squads – which you could use GW kits for anyway), it would cost you a cool £707.55 ($941.31). Now… That’s a pure GW army for 2k points. If 1 FW model costing £100/$100 for example is “in-accessible”, then GW itself is EXTREMELY in-accessible for the average player. Now, if the “average” player is able to buy the army over time (like 99% of players do), then the argument of not somehow being able to do the same for FW models is stupid.
In regards to people not having the rules or books available to show people… Well, that’s simple to fix. If you don’t have the rules, you can’t use the model. This should be the case with all models, GW or FW and is a common curtesy, let alone, necessary requirement to play the game correctly.
Things are being addressed when they are a problem – both GW and FW. There has never been a better time than now (in my view) to start opening up the hobby and events to everything that is available. GW are proving, that if there is a problem, and if it is raised to them with evidence, they are willing to do something about it, and relatively quickly.
I’ve always planned to slow build a pure Elysian/FW Navy army, both thematic and competitive, but, each time I see this debate and people banning FW from events I keep putting it off. And that, to me, is bad for the hobby and the game, cos, if I am doing that, how many others are also not diversifying in army build and composition because of it?
Kdash wrote: The whole FW ban debate is rather amusing to me, as someone who missed the whole 4th, 5th, 6th edition “fiasco” with the units.
The way I see things now (as someone who came back for Warhammer Fest 2017 and 8th ed), is that people seem to tar everything FW with the same brush, and often seem to think including FW in your army = auto win. From what I’ve seen, and read up on in terms of event results, sure, some units are making a regular appearance in top armies, but armies that don’t include FW are doing just as well in major events.
With the advent of Chapter Approved changing some FW points costs (based on Malefic Lord changes I expect any changes are going to be either too much of a reduction or too much of an increase, with no middle ground), I think the time of “all FW is broken and never supported or updated” is coming to an end.
Sure, the price can, at times, be a deciding factor on whether or not to buy a unit or model, but, by punishing someone who saves up to buy that one centre-piece model/unit just because another hasn’t/doesn’t want to/can’t will only have a negative impact on the growth of the hobby. Also, with everything now being online and easy to order and get delivered, accessibility is at an all time high for FW. The same goes for the FW books. They were priced the same as the Indices and also had a digital version. Anyone claiming that they are in-accessible to the average player is just wrong.
An example I used previously in this debate was GW conscript spam vs something like an Elysian army from a cost point of view. As it stood, to buy enough models for the conscript units (talking 120-200 models) and then the cost of the rest of the army, you’d be spending more on GW plastic for those units, than an entire 2k Elysian FW army. So, if FW is in-accessible due to cost, then, TO’s also need to then ban certain army builds that also cost upwards of a certain cost to buy.
An example of this, is Brandon Grant’s winning Guard list at the SoCal Open. To go out and buy his army right now from GW (all of it is GW bar the mortar squads – which you could use GW kits for anyway), it would cost you a cool £707.55 ($941.31). Now… That’s a pure GW army for 2k points. If 1 FW model costing £100/$100 for example is “in-accessible”, then GW itself is EXTREMELY in-accessible for the average player. Now, if the “average” player is able to buy the army over time (like 99% of players do), then the argument of not somehow being able to do the same for FW models is stupid.
In regards to people not having the rules or books available to show people… Well, that’s simple to fix. If you don’t have the rules, you can’t use the model. This should be the case with all models, GW or FW and is a common curtesy, let alone, necessary requirement to play the game correctly.
Things are being addressed when they are a problem – both GW and FW. There has never been a better time than now (in my view) to start opening up the hobby and events to everything that is available. GW are proving, that if there is a problem, and if it is raised to them with evidence, they are willing to do something about it, and relatively quickly.
I’ve always planned to slow build a pure Elysian/FW Navy army, both thematic and competitive, but, each time I see this debate and people banning FW from events I keep putting it off. And that, to me, is bad for the hobby and the game, cos, if I am doing that, how many others are also not diversifying in army build and composition because of it?
If you're willing to buy 200 guardsmen you're a WAAC player, not an average one. An average player will buy the miniatures he/she prefers in order to collect an army that can work in games (maybe, sometimes they don't even care) but it's also good looking. Tournaments players are far from being the average ones, they're actually a minority.
FW hate also comes because not everyone likes the concept of centerpiece models, I can't stand them for example. I consider land raiders but also rhinos and dreads big models. Unfortunately even GW new releases are following this path, to provide huge vehicles/monters/superheroes to everyone, but this is a trend that was inherited by FW. Hence the FW hate.
FW prices are very very high for a standard player/collector. And we can have a 30% price cut on the GW catalogue here, while we can't have it on FW stuff.
To ban FW is wrong IMHO, but don't say that FW stuff is accessible to anyone, moneywise speaking, just because some WAAC player has collected an army with 200+ guardsmen.
Banning FW is a bit silly, a lot of 8th ed's problem children are not from FW.
One of those old things that has stuck is FW being broken or OP, when it's not been true for a long while now.
A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal.
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings.
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves.
Warhammer 40k - Tyranids.
Blackie wrote: FW hate also comes because not everyone likes the concept of centerpiece models, I can't stand them for example. I consider land raiders but also rhinos and dreads big models. Unfortunately even GW new releases are following this path, to provide huge vehicles/monters/superheroes to everyone, but this is a trend that was inherited by FW. Hence the FW hate.
Ah yes leman russes and chimeras are big center piece models
Oh and don't forget the HUGE infantry trooper center piece model!
Ah yes leman russes and chimeras are big center piece models
IMHO they are. Or better, there shouldn't be real centerpiece models, there also shouldn't be immortal superheroes/monsters/vehicles that do the entire job alone. I prefer having more infantries and standard sized vehicles than bringing huge models. I can't stand the GW policy that releases big models of characters that should be the size of a standard guy. Like Celestine, why making her fly in order to have a 15 cm tall model? Or the yncarne. Those two characters should have the dimensions of standard battle sisters or dark eldar but they have a scenic base and/or a pose that makes them quite big, this is something I really hate. And it comes from FW
Ah yes leman russes and chimeras are big center piece models
IMHO they are. Or better, there shouldn't be real centerpiece models, there also shouldn't be immortal superheroes/monsters/vehicles that do the entire job alone. I prefer having more infantries and standard sized vehicles than bringing huge models. I can't stand the GW policy that releases big models of characters that should be the size of a standard guy. Like Celestine, why making her fly in order to have a 15 cm tall model? Or the yncarne. Those two characters should have the dimensions of standard battle sisters or dark eldar but they have a scenic base and/or a pose that makes them quite big, this is something I really hate. And it comes from FW
Just my view about the game though.
So what problem you have with leman russes, chimeras, predators, land raiders, imperial guard troopers etc that form up hefty bulk of FW product line?
Kdash wrote: The whole FW ban debate is rather amusing to me, as someone who missed the whole 4th, 5th, 6th edition “fiasco” with the units.
The way I see things now (as someone who came back for Warhammer Fest 2017 and 8th ed), is that people seem to tar everything FW with the same brush, and often seem to think including FW in your army = auto win. From what I’ve seen, and read up on in terms of event results, sure, some units are making a regular appearance in top armies, but armies that don’t include FW are doing just as well in major events.
With the advent of Chapter Approved changing some FW points costs (based on Malefic Lord changes I expect any changes are going to be either too much of a reduction or too much of an increase, with no middle ground), I think the time of “all FW is broken and never supported or updated” is coming to an end.
Sure, the price can, at times, be a deciding factor on whether or not to buy a unit or model, but, by punishing someone who saves up to buy that one centre-piece model/unit just because another hasn’t/doesn’t want to/can’t will only have a negative impact on the growth of the hobby. Also, with everything now being online and easy to order and get delivered, accessibility is at an all time high for FW. The same goes for the FW books. They were priced the same as the Indices and also had a digital version. Anyone claiming that they are in-accessible to the average player is just wrong.
An example I used previously in this debate was GW conscript spam vs something like an Elysian army from a cost point of view. As it stood, to buy enough models for the conscript units (talking 120-200 models) and then the cost of the rest of the army, you’d be spending more on GW plastic for those units, than an entire 2k Elysian FW army. So, if FW is in-accessible due to cost, then, TO’s also need to then ban certain army builds that also cost upwards of a certain cost to buy.
An example of this, is Brandon Grant’s winning Guard list at the SoCal Open. To go out and buy his army right now from GW (all of it is GW bar the mortar squads – which you could use GW kits for anyway), it would cost you a cool £707.55 ($941.31). Now… That’s a pure GW army for 2k points. If 1 FW model costing £100/$100 for example is “in-accessible”, then GW itself is EXTREMELY in-accessible for the average player. Now, if the “average” player is able to buy the army over time (like 99% of players do), then the argument of not somehow being able to do the same for FW models is stupid.
In regards to people not having the rules or books available to show people… Well, that’s simple to fix. If you don’t have the rules, you can’t use the model. This should be the case with all models, GW or FW and is a common curtesy, let alone, necessary requirement to play the game correctly.
Things are being addressed when they are a problem – both GW and FW. There has never been a better time than now (in my view) to start opening up the hobby and events to everything that is available. GW are proving, that if there is a problem, and if it is raised to them with evidence, they are willing to do something about it, and relatively quickly.
I’ve always planned to slow build a pure Elysian/FW Navy army, both thematic and competitive, but, each time I see this debate and people banning FW from events I keep putting it off. And that, to me, is bad for the hobby and the game, cos, if I am doing that, how many others are also not diversifying in army build and composition because of it?
If you're willing to buy 200 guardsmen you're a WAAC player, not an average one. An average player will buy the miniatures he/she prefers in order to collect an army that can work in games (maybe, sometimes they don't even care) but it's also good looking. Tournaments players are far from being the average ones, they're actually a minority.
FW hate also comes because not everyone likes the concept of centerpiece models, I can't stand them for example. I consider land raiders but also rhinos and dreads big models. Unfortunately even GW new releases are following this path, to provide huge vehicles/monters/superheroes to everyone, but this is a trend that was inherited by FW. Hence the FW hate.
FW prices are very very high for a standard player/collector. And we can have a 30% price cut on the GW catalogue here, while we can't have it on FW stuff.
To ban FW is wrong IMHO, but don't say that FW stuff is accessible to anyone, moneywise speaking, just because some WAAC player has collected an army with 200+ guardsmen.
Ok, so my basic, none WAAC, fun, but competitive, Eldar list that I’m building clocks in at £522.50 from GW. And that’s not including the cost of the Codex and Cards.
So, essentially you could say that for an extra £200 I could get a WAAC smite, conscript and scion spam army. Sure, you’re now getting into the “pay to win” aspect of the game, where you are paying for the best setups, but, at the cost of a standard 2000 point army, there isn’t really any excuses that forgeworld models are “out of the budget” of many collectors.
Now, also take into account that a lot of the “big” cost models from FW also have point costs of several hundred points, this also can, strangely, have the effect of actually LOWERING the cost of your army overall, due to more points being taken up by the “big” models. Now, that’s only in a handful of cases, but, it’s worth noting it can happen.
Yes, FW is generally more expensive on a model for model basis (eg. Normal Guard Sentinal is £18.50, but FW’s Elysian one is £26) but, I guess that is where you now come into the cost of resin vs plastic.
FW itself, isn’t generally used to make a completely army, you’re likely only ever going to have a couple of units (unless you’re running a FW regiment). So, based on the cost of a couple of models, vs the cost of the rest of the army, the cost of the FW additions will always be substantially less than the rest of the army. If you are prepared to spend £500 on a new army, no matter how long you spread it out over, saying that you then can’t afford to spend £50-£150 on a large centre piece model/unit from FW is just frankly absurd. Sure, it can be a “big hit” all in one go for some players, but you can hardly use it as an argument for the cost being out of reach overall.
Also, using the excuse of getting a big GW discount in your local area as a reason for FW being “out of reach” is also a non-starter. What about all the other people that only have access to, either a GW store or the GW website? A 30% discount on my Eldar army would bring the cost down by £156.75. Pretty big drop, I agree, but a £365.75 army is still more of an outlay than spending something like £87 on 400 points of FW. For 1600 points of GW I’d be spending £00.18 per point, and then I’d be spending another £00.21 per point for the 400 points of FW. NOT using your 30% discount, i'd be spending £00.26 per point of GW (Which is MORE than the FW cost!)
Just because it is a big outlay in money for sometimes, a single model, doesn’t mean it’s way more inaccessible than GW armies when you take the time to compare the two.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/23 12:09:03
cuda1179 wrote: I once had a guy say that people that buy FW products are just paying to win.
However, this guy also had the opinion that scratch-builds shouldn't be allowed in the store because if you can't afford the game you shouldn't play it.
I guess he didn't like poor people, or rich people.
FW is paying to have fun... like any other part of the hobby. Regarding scratch build; you could say the same applies!
Now if the community consensus for said tournament is that "Having Forgeworld reduces the fun quotient of our time spent" that is valid if it addresses *specific community issues*. As for a possible reason behind that, not knowing anything about an opposing army, having to halt the game in progress so everyone involved can look up a rule, is entirely valid - especially if said army is new and the rule source is digital and thus introduces further delays. If the rules aren't provided by the player then that's yet another layer of grief that isn't necessary.
For comparison, there was a discussion recently in my hobby group about a tournament heat where one player just crashed out because a *GW* codex army was in play that no-one had ever seen at that level, and the amount of rules overhead was too much for him. Given the arguments that have built up over 6 months for the rereleases of 8th - and the turnaround on the FAQ - the prospect of having to do all of that for a FW collection, on the spot, in a paid/limited time frame environment may legitimately not appeal as something which more trouble than it is worth. Now in a years time when 8th has 'settled' and FW is a known and settled quantity, then maybe that reason won't hold water.
I personally have about 15 kg of Forgeworld in various configurations, none of which has seen regular use since 8th because it doesn't *fit* with the community just now. I'm looking forward to when everyone is settled and we can go nuts
Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.
FW itself, isn’t generally used to make a completely army, you’re likely only ever going to have a couple of units (unless you’re running a FW regiment). So, based on the cost of a couple of models, vs the cost of the rest of the army, the cost of the FW additions will always be substantially less than the rest of the army. If you are prepared to spend £500 on a new army, no matter how long you spread it out over, saying that you then can’t afford to spend £50-£150 on a large centre piece model/unit from FW is just frankly absurd.
It's just your opinion. IMHO 60+pounds for a single model IS absurd, even if the model is a plastic GW one.
FW itself, isn’t generally used to make a completely army, you’re likely only ever going to have a couple of units (unless you’re running a FW regiment). So, based on the cost of a couple of models, vs the cost of the rest of the army, the cost of the FW additions will always be substantially less than the rest of the army. If you are prepared to spend £500 on a new army, no matter how long you spread it out over, saying that you then can’t afford to spend £50-£150 on a large centre piece model/unit from FW is just frankly absurd.
It's just your opinion. IMHO 60+pounds for a single model IS absurd, even if the model is a plastic GW one.
Oh, i NEVER said that the cost wasn't high or absurd, i simply stated that when you look at everything in comparison FW isn't really "out of reach" in the grand scheme of building, and paying for, a 2000 point army that you'd use in a tournament.
If i had to buy my Eldar army in one go as a new player i'd be likely to tell the GW store owner to " off. £500+ for a plastic army?!? Are you insane??"... But, as that's not the case, in some ways, the price doesn't hurt as much. Personally, i think, if GW can give some FLGS's up to 30% off their retail price, they should be able to just drop their prices by a good chunk.
But, unfortunately, there are more things to consider, along with business planning and customer response. For example, if everyone keeps buying models at x price, then, in some ways it says to GW - "the customers are buying this in huge amounts, so they must be ok with our current price structure".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/23 14:01:41
1) I've always treated Forgeworld like any other supplementary rule system. The "Core" warhammer 40K game has always been the core rule book and the codex for each army.
Anything in addition to that is an expansion to the core game rules. Cities of Death, Forgeworld (Imperial Armour) etc.... That's not saying they are better/worse/balanced/unbalanced etc.. just that its an expansion to the core game.
In recent years the use of dataslates for new releases from GW has added to the core game rules. It's core products sold and marketed by the core game company.
In that line of thinking Foregeworld unique units are always an expansion to the game. Thus tournaments or play can very well exclude them because not everyone will have or choose to have access; and if the majority feel that the expansion isn't desired then its fine to have a competitive event without Forgeworld.
2) Forgeworld models cost a lot and are often bought by those who are very keen on the hobby. This often mean they are very proud of their models and thus get rather irate when people say they can't use them in games. Or feel its randomly unfair etc.. or the tournament is showing heavy bias.
I think this is the wrong attitude to have because its essentially a hostile reaction.
3) I think the internet tends to bias in that those who are online are often the more keen in the hobby; and also those who are often more open to buying online. As a result I think you get a heavier bias in forgeworld owning players online; which tends to steer most FW usage discussion toward the more irate "it should always be allowed" angle.
Note that the above is, of course, only relevant to FW unique models; rather than those that provide sculpts for codex units/upgrades.
I thought of this last night. This tournament has players from across the country supposedly, yet they made the FW ban because of the local players opinions.
This tournament is 70 players and takes 3 days to complete.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/23 14:21:16
Holding up a FW ban as somehow attempting to save the local players from needing to spend too much money to win a game is ridiculous. I don't believe it for a second. Are those TO's claiming that this is their motive also banning SoB armies to ensure nobody is forced to drop the cash to field an extremely sub-optimal broken load out Sisters Brigade detachment?
Paying more money =/= winning.
If a TO and the players in a local meta are worried about getting their feelings hurt from losing why in the world are they having a tournament in the first place? An escalation league with specific game nights and raffle tickets for players painting new units, games played (not win or lose) club terrain building and such that go into a prize drawing bin at certain stages of the league is far healthier for a LGS/gaming community than a tournament.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chimeara wrote: I thought of this last night. This tournament has players from across the country supposedly, yet they made the FW ban because of the local players opinions.
This tournament is 70 players and takes 3 days to complete.
/facepalm
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/23 14:27:09
Earth127 wrote: I wonder if an adventurer's league style limitation would help: " In matched play you can only select units from up to 2 scources."
So you could have space marines but then you would have to choose between adding AM bodies or FW fire raptors for instance.
My inquisition would absolutely love that.
After all, you get your book for acolytes and inquisitors. Then you get your book (Imperial Armor Index 1: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes) for your Inquisitorial Land Raider Prometheus, then codex AM for your Inquisitorial Chimeras and Valkyries and general support, and then you get the Adeptus Astartes book for rhinos, and then you take stuff from Deathwatch because you are Ordo Xenos and then you bring an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor and his Grey Knights because you are running a conclave list.
Kdash wrote: The whole FW ban debate is rather amusing to me, as someone who missed the whole 4th, 5th, 6th edition “fiasco” with the units.
The way I see things now (as someone who came back for Warhammer Fest 2017 and 8th ed), is that people seem to tar everything FW with the same brush, and often seem to think including FW in your army = auto win. From what I’ve seen, and read up on in terms of event results, sure, some units are making a regular appearance in top armies, but armies that don’t include FW are doing just as well in major events.
With the advent of Chapter Approved changing some FW points costs (based on Malefic Lord changes I expect any changes are going to be either too much of a reduction or too much of an increase, with no middle ground), I think the time of “all FW is broken and never supported or updated” is coming to an end.
Sure, the price can, at times, be a deciding factor on whether or not to buy a unit or model, but, by punishing someone who saves up to buy that one centre-piece model/unit just because another hasn’t/doesn’t want to/can’t will only have a negative impact on the growth of the hobby. Also, with everything now being online and easy to order and get delivered, accessibility is at an all time high for FW. The same goes for the FW books. They were priced the same as the Indices and also had a digital version. Anyone claiming that they are in-accessible to the average player is just wrong.
An example I used previously in this debate was GW conscript spam vs something like an Elysian army from a cost point of view. As it stood, to buy enough models for the conscript units (talking 120-200 models) and then the cost of the rest of the army, you’d be spending more on GW plastic for those units, than an entire 2k Elysian FW army. So, if FW is in-accessible due to cost, then, TO’s also need to then ban certain army builds that also cost upwards of a certain cost to buy.
An example of this, is Brandon Grant’s winning Guard list at the SoCal Open. To go out and buy his army right now from GW (all of it is GW bar the mortar squads – which you could use GW kits for anyway), it would cost you a cool £707.55 ($941.31). Now… That’s a pure GW army for 2k points. If 1 FW model costing £100/$100 for example is “in-accessible”, then GW itself is EXTREMELY in-accessible for the average player. Now, if the “average” player is able to buy the army over time (like 99% of players do), then the argument of not somehow being able to do the same for FW models is stupid.
In regards to people not having the rules or books available to show people… Well, that’s simple to fix. If you don’t have the rules, you can’t use the model. This should be the case with all models, GW or FW and is a common curtesy, let alone, necessary requirement to play the game correctly.
Things are being addressed when they are a problem – both GW and FW. There has never been a better time than now (in my view) to start opening up the hobby and events to everything that is available. GW are proving, that if there is a problem, and if it is raised to them with evidence, they are willing to do something about it, and relatively quickly.
I’ve always planned to slow build a pure Elysian/FW Navy army, both thematic and competitive, but, each time I see this debate and people banning FW from events I keep putting it off. And that, to me, is bad for the hobby and the game, cos, if I am doing that, how many others are also not diversifying in army build and composition because of it?
If you're willing to buy 200 guardsmen you're a WAAC player, not an average one. An average player will buy the miniatures he/she prefers in order to collect an army that can work in games (maybe, sometimes they don't even care) but it's also good looking. Tournaments players are far from being the average ones, they're actually a minority.
FW hate also comes because not everyone likes the concept of centerpiece models, I can't stand them for example. I consider land raiders but also rhinos and dreads big models. Unfortunately even GW new releases are following this path, to provide huge vehicles/monters/superheroes to everyone, but this is a trend that was inherited by FW. Hence the FW hate.
FW prices are very very high for a standard player/collector. And we can have a 30% price cut on the GW catalogue here, while we can't have it on FW stuff.
To ban FW is wrong IMHO, but don't say that FW stuff is accessible to anyone, moneywise speaking, just because some WAAC player has collected an army with 200+ guardsmen.
This is the first time in the history of 40k that anyone has ever accused someone of being a WAAC player for buying a lot of basic guardsmen...
More to the point though, FW stuff isn't necessarily more expensive than mainline GW stuff either by any means. There's a fair number of units that are cheaper than their mainline GW plastic counterparts (for example, most any Tech Priest/Mechanicum HQ and it's FW counterpart, GW's plastic Mortarion is much more expensive than FW's Mortarion, DKoK Grenadiers vs plastic Tempestus Scions).
Many FW models aren't big centerpiece models, in fact the overwhelmingly vast majority of FW stuff is not big expensive centerpiece models. GW's big model trend was not inherited from FW, it's a push driven by marketing (it's easy to hype and show them off) and by technology (GW is the only player in the tabletop game able to do big plastic models the way GW can and the variable cost to produce the big kits isn't really any more than the small kits once the fixed cost of the mold is covered so the profit margin is higher). FW does the biggest stuff but that's not actually most of what they make, GW pushes the big models a lot more, especially allowing them to be taken in quantities and in smaller games than FW would ever have allowed. Most of what FW makes is stuff like variant vehicle hulls and turrets, different marks of Power Armor, and factions that mainline GW does not.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
The only thing I have in my army is my general Lord Zhufor, decimator and two blood slaughterers. I also use the rules for the FW predator and dreadnaught variants.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So my stuff is very far from op.
I had thought of a PL limit. Something like 18 or less is allowed, how's that sound?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/23 17:04:49
Huh, I guess it's a good thing I did not go directly for a FW-based army. That's when I'd discover some guys with chips on their shoulders about money wouldn't let me play toy soldiers with them
Blackie wrote: If you're willing to buy 200 guardsmen you're a WAAC player, not an average one.
Or you like the idea of a horde of infantry from a fluff point of view, or enjoy painting infantry. Stop making assumptions about a player's motives based on nothing but the models they choose to buy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overread wrote: 1) I've always treated Forgeworld like any other supplementary rule system. The "Core" warhammer 40K game has always been the core rule book and the codex for each army.
Anything in addition to that is an expansion to the core game rules. Cities of Death, Forgeworld (Imperial Armour) etc.... That's not saying they are better/worse/balanced/unbalanced etc.. just that its an expansion to the core game.
And you're wrong to do so. CoD and the other expansions are rules that change the game as a whole: new missions, new list-building rules applied to both players, etc. They're clearly labeled as expansions that both players have to agree to use, because it's impossible for one player to include them in their army without their opponent also accepting the changes. FW rules, on the other hand, are just additional unit rules. GW does not treat them as an expansion, or otherwise apart from the "core game".
In recent years the use of dataslates for new releases from GW has added to the core game rules. It's core products sold and marketed by the core game company.
And this is a blatant double standard. If one set of units published outside the codex is an expansion to the core game open to rejection then so are all of the other units published the same way. Arguing otherwise is a completely unfair way of handling it, and comes across as "I've got mine, you".
not everyone will have or choose to have access
Only in the same way that not everyone will have or choose to have access to the space marine codex. Do I get to ban that just because I don't have a copy?
I think this is the wrong attitude to have because its essentially a hostile reaction.
A hostile reaction is exactly the right attitude to have when you're dealing with a hostile action. Don't ban FW and you won't have people angry at you over your bad behavior.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/23 19:17:53
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
If a tournament organiser banned Forge World then I'd point out that even GW's 40k grand tournament at Warhammer World allows Forge World - it's a part of the game.
off. £500+ for a plastic army?!? Are you insane??"... But, as that's not the case, in some ways, the price doesn't hurt as much. Personally, i think, if 
