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 EmpNortonII wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:
You are wrong.

Imperium is the only way in the 41st millenium for humanity.

This doesn't need to be explained more elaborately.

=][=

The Imperium is monstrous. Humanity's only good future is as part of the Tau Empire, serving the Greater Good.

Suffer not the Xeno to live.

M.

The Imperium is an empty husk that actively works against the betterment of humanity. What mankind needs is a little change.

In absolutely no way would humanity be spread across the galaxy, or in any way united, without the Imperium. Not after what the Eldar did by birthing the Eye of Terror. At best you would see hundreds of little pockets of humans, some of which might own several star systems, or possibly be as big as Macragge (and most of that was helped by Guilliman).

And most of those would be human in DNA only, as they would have had their societies evolved in isolation so they would all be completely crazy and different. Look at the societies and how they compare on this planet after only a couple of thousand years of only being apart geographically on one planet. Now seperate them by light years, and then throw in a knowledge that everything great has fallen and they are probably the last humans out there, and you get all the crazy societies discovered during the Great Crusade...with an additional 10k years to further alter.

Only the dogmatic repitition of the Imperium being so stagnant lets it stay as something recognizable. The Imperium is likely a highly religious mirror of what tied humans together in the Golden Age. Unity across a huge area requires some sort of overarching government, if only for storage, transfer, and preservation of culture and knowledge.

 Galas wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Before the Emperor came, the vast majority of mankind barely lived. Those that weren't killed in the Age of Strife survived mostly as the slaves and playthings of Xeno or Chaos overlords. They were completely without any kind of protection against the myriad threats out there. Sure, there were some Human civilisations that thrived, but they were small and few and far between, easy pickings for Xenos and Chaos.
In order to do more than simply survive, in order to prosper in this hostile galaxy, mankind needs to be united. And unity can only be maintained with an iron hand when you have the insidious forces of Chaos constantly trying to chip away at it. Chaos is a massive threat to entire worlds and even to the Imperium as a whole. It must be rooted out with extreme prejudice, for if even the smallest seed gets left behind it will fester and grow into a tree that bears only disaster as fruit.
So, would mankind survive without the Imperium? Marginally, yes. But no Human wants to be a slave, living a fearful and miserable life without hope. No Human wants to just survive. That is what beasts do. Humans are more than beasts, Humans want to have a life beyond merely surviving. And for that they need protection and prosperity. And for that they need the Imperium.

You see? This is just factually wrong from a meta-universe point of view. The Interex where a human galactic empire that was much better prepared to fight Chaos that the Imperium has been in all of his existence. They actually teached their population how to avoid Chaos corruption, and they achieved what the Imperium didn't.

I understand that of course, being Warhammer as Grimdark, that "noblebrigth" empire was just there to show us how crazy insane is the Imperium and how they aren't in any shape or form the "good guys" even from the "Humanity supervivence" point of view.

But this is not a conversation about the Imperium being right or wrong in their manners, is a conversation about how from a meta-perspective of the universe, the Imperium isn't actually neccesary to humans to achieve galactic Empires and survive in a hostile galaxy. And how many players just don't see that, believen as another loyal imperial citizen the Imperial in-universe propaganda.

The Interex would have been destroyed by the first Chaos force that would have looked their way. Their military might was not nearly large enough to survive in this universe. Even in the highly unlikely event that they would have been immune to the corrupting touch of Chaos (knowing the nature of Chaos, this most likely is just hubris on the part of the Interex), the mortal followers of the Dark Gods would eventually have cast their gaze on them and destroyed them.
And that is before even going into the obvious fact that the Interex were way too weak to protect mankind. They couldn't even protect their own little empire, let alone the rest of the galaxy. The Interex weren't introduced to show how evil the Imperium is, they were introduced to show that the Imperium is neccesary. That ruling with an iron fist and ruthlessly stamping out dissent and dangerous thoughts is the only way to protect the myriad worlds of mankind from this hostile, uncaring galaxy.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:
You are wrong.

Imperium is the only way in the 41st millenium for humanity.

This doesn't need to be explained more elaborately.

=][=

The Imperium is monstrous. Humanity's only good future is as part of the Tau Empire, serving the Greater Good.

So you prefer living in eternal slavery to a life in freedom? Greater Good? More like Greater Lack of Freedom. At least in the Imperium, a person is free to choose his own destiny. In the Tau Empire, everything is determined for you. There is no freedom, no individuality, no room for personal choices. Being a Tau is little better than being a servitor. If being a mindless automaton is your idea of a good future, then by all means, serve the Greater Good. If on the other hand you want at least a bit of room for individuality and personality, then serve the God-Emperor. Life in the Imperium may suck, but at least it sucks less than any alternatives.
Not to mention that the Tau Empire will be gone the moment someone like Abbadon, Vect or Ghazghkull decides to take a closer look at it. They do not have the military might to survive in the long term.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

What? Will all Orks just go for the galaxy looking for humans to exterminate them? Or Dark Eldars, or Tyranids?

Actually yes. That is precisely what they do. Dark Eldar seek out humans because they need slaves. Orks seek out humans because they think stompin' 'umies is fun. Tyranids seek out humans because humans are biomass.

 Galas wrote:
The Imperium faces all of those threats at the same time because they are the Roman Empire of the Galaxy. Without a unified Imperium, other human nations could perfectly survive without fihgting agaisn't all those enemies at once.

No, they would only survive until one of those enemies shows up. A small Human nation has no hope of withstanding the massive force of a Tyranid hive fleet or an Ork WAAAGH!!!, and like any isolated target, it would be easy prey for Dark Eldar. The Severan Dominate is a perfect example of a small Human nation in the process of being destroyed by Dark Eldar.

 Galas wrote:
Humans survived during thousands and thousands of years, making bigger empires than the one the Emperor did during the Dark Age of Technology. And they faced Orks, and other Xenos that are now extint, etc...

Back then Humans had technology that rivaled that of the Eldar at their height. Humans no longer have such technology, and only the Adeptus Mechanicus keeps some of the knowledge of those times alive.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:
You are wrong.

Imperium is the only way in the 41st millenium for humanity.

This doesn't need to be explained more elaborately.

=][=

The Imperium is monstrous. Humanity's only good future is as part of the Tau Empire, serving the Greater Good.

So you prefer living in eternal slavery to a life in freedom? Greater Good? More like Greater Lack of Freedom. At least in the Imperium, a person is free to choose his own destiny. In the Tau Empire, everything is determined for you. There is no freedom, no individuality, no room for personal choices. Being a Tau is little better than being a servitor. If being a mindless automaton is your idea of a good future, then by all means, serve the Greater Good. If on the other hand you want at least a bit of room for individuality and personality, then serve the God-Emperor. Life in the Imperium may suck, but at least it sucks less than any alternatives.
Not to mention that the Tau Empire will be gone the moment someone like Abbadon, Vect or Ghazghkull decides to take a closer look at it. They do not have the military might to survive in the long term.

The Imperium gives you the freedom to be shot if you do not do as the Imperium demands. The Tau Empire does not treat its members with the brutality the Imperium uses. The Tau Castes are the way they are because of how they evolved- not because of a tyrannical government that will shoot you if you do not spend your life as they dictate. Humans are not Tau- and they are not treated like that. They have more freedom in the Empire than they do in the Imperium.

... and all will eventually fall to the Tau Empire. Our enemies bleed each other dry as our technological development progresses rapidly.

The rapid development of Tau Technology will only further the evolution of the Swarm. The Tyranids will evolve, will adapt and will consume. Bolstered by evolutions geared toward the Tau the Tyranids will sweep across the whole Galaxy with a renewed power!


Thus is the secret reason for Tau revealed! To provide an evolutionary booster to the Tyranid Swarms!



Also whilst the Tau are not openly as brutal as the Imperium; they are still sinister. Are there not stories of whole populations being cleansed through chemical infertility. Tau are the Greater Good but they are not good unless you're a high ranking Tau. Their main difference is that unlike most other factions, Tau are not Xenophobic; they are willing to use you in their combined armies.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:
You are wrong.

Imperium is the only way in the 41st millenium for humanity.

This doesn't need to be explained more elaborately.

=][=

The Imperium is monstrous. Humanity's only good future is as part of the Tau Empire, serving the Greater Good.

So you prefer living in eternal slavery to a life in freedom? Greater Good? More like Greater Lack of Freedom. At least in the Imperium, a person is free to choose his own destiny. In the Tau Empire, everything is determined for you. There is no freedom, no individuality, no room for personal choices. Being a Tau is little better than being a servitor. If being a mindless automaton is your idea of a good future, then by all means, serve the Greater Good. If on the other hand you want at least a bit of room for individuality and personality, then serve the God-Emperor. Life in the Imperium may suck, but at least it sucks less than any alternatives.
Not to mention that the Tau Empire will be gone the moment someone like Abbadon, Vect or Ghazghkull decides to take a closer look at it. They do not have the military might to survive in the long term.

The Imperium gives you the freedom to be shot if you do not do as the Imperium demands. The Tau Empire does not treat its members with the brutality the Imperium uses. The Tau Castes are the way they are because of how they evolved- not because of a tyrannical government that will shoot you if you do not spend your life as they dictate. Humans are not Tau- and they are not treated like that. They have more freedom in the Empire than they do in the Imperium.

... and all will eventually fall to the Tau Empire. Our enemies bleed each other dry as our technological development progresses rapidly.

What do you think happens when an individual Tau goes against the tenets of the Greater Good? Do you believe the Ethereals will just be okay with that? And what if that Tau starts spreading his ideas to other Tau? Truth is, something like that is highly unlikely to ever happen in the first place, because there is no room for individuality or free will within the Greater Good. Someone in the Tau empire is not defined by who he or she is, but by what he or she is. And that is pretty damn nightmarish. A person born in the Imperium might find himself or herself raised in a loving family, and in adulthood could theoretically become almost anything from factory worker to street sweeper to Space Marine to Ecclesiarch. He or she will have complete freedom to have his or her own ideas, beliefs and viewpoints within the broad boundaries of the Imperial Creed. A person born in the Tau empire will have no parents, will never know love and will never be able to do anything except the task he or she has been selected for. There will be no room for individual ideas, beliefs or viewpoints. There is only the Greater Good. In truth, a person in the Tau empire is not a person at all, but a robot, every bit as devoid of free will as a servitor or a Necron warrior.
For all its horribleness, the Imperium at least offers free will and a limited social mobility. True, most people in the Imperium will never be able to move upwards and will live their lives in miserable poverty, but there is also plenty of people who got lucky and live in comfort. They will have plenty of freedom to do whatever they want within the Imperium's legal boundaries, which are pretty wide for everything that is not downright heretical.
Being converted into a servitor is seen as one of the most terrifying punishments possible within the Imperium, because it robs you of your free will. Living in slavery under the Tau is exactly like being converted into a servitor. The Greater Good requires the total sacrifice of free will. It requires that the individual ceases to exist. A person has to become part of the greater group, working for the good not of himself, but only for the greater good of the group as a whole. In a limited way, such altruism is great, and it is a feature of many Human societies including the Imperium. But the Tau take this concept to an extreme level that is more dystopian than the Imperium will ever be.
Basically both the the Imperium and the Tau Empire are dystopia, but the Imperium is 1984, and the Tau Empire is A Brave New World. And having read both, the first isn't even nearly as scary as the last. Sure, being the subject of a brutal, tyrannical regime is no fun, but losing your individuality and personhood is even worse.

Iron_Captain... have you read some Novel about Tau or some of their Codexs? Or their campaings? Because... thats not how Tau society works.

Besides, if you don't like the Tau Empire you can live in the Farsight Enclaves. The True Good Guys of the Galaxy.

 Galas wrote:
Iron_Captain... have you read some Novel about Tau or some of their Codexs? Or their campaings? Because... thats not how Tau society works.

Besides, if you don't like the Tau Empire you can live in the Farsight Enclaves. The True Good Guys of the Galaxy.

A lot actually. It is most definitely how Tau society works. It is why Farsight broke away from the Tau Empire. Finding out that the Ethereals had been lying about Chaos (which they claimed to have done for the Greater Good) made him realise that the Ethereals and Tau society were anything but good. That is why he broke contact with the Empire, and why the Ethereals branded him a traitor for it. Have you read any of the fluff on Farsight and the Farsight Enclaves?
And if you don't like the Tau Empire you can't just go live in the Farsight Enclaves. The Ethereals have literally named the Enclaves "The Forbidden Zone". You will never be allowed to move there, and merely expressing such a desire would probably mark you for re-education. The Ethereals really don't like people with subversive ideas.

Farsight might be one of the few true good guys of the galaxy yes, if you can overlook his genocidal tendencies towards Orks. The Tau Empire? Not at all good guys.

Obviously you can't move to the Farsight Enclaves if you are part of the Tau Empire at least not without sneaking your way out. I was talking out-universe And yes I have read all the fluff of the Farsight Enclaves. Now, this is personal opinion, but I believe that fluff isn't very good. It falls in the "Lets put the other guys as ultra-bad so we look much better" trope. Is like when in Space Marine fluff they smack everything else down to look better. Imperial Guard, Sororitas? Useless, only space marines can save the Imperium.

And I don't think anybody lose "good guy points" for being genocidal towards Orks. Or Tyranids.

Not to mention if you don't follow Farsight's ideals, then you can't join them either. And I'm not even sure how well the FSE take to Gue'vesa either.

Of course you can't join a group if you don't follow their ideals. But that does not mean they are gonna kill you for that like everybody else in the galaxy. And about humans to be honest I don't know how they accept them. I assume they are still open in arms to other xeno species that want to work with them.

I don't think even the orks themselves would take off good guy points for genocidal acts against them either.

"Ya hear dat Boyz , dem bluies are lookin fer a proppa scrap! I say wez gives it to em! "

To quote "the expanse" - the universe is better off without us.

Silly monkeigh should never have climbed down out of the trees.

Humanity in 40k is caught in a catch-22. I don't believe that it is in any way possible for humanity to survive long without the military might of the Imperium, even as it is used against its own people. If the Imperium collapsed, the only thing preventing nearly all of humanity being wiped out by Tyranids and Orks would be that Chaos would overtake humanity first. It is possible that without whatever psychic protection the Emperor provides, Chaos would be able to stream into the material universe en masse. They certainly would invade and destroy Terra at the very least.

The notion that the Emperor protects is not just Imperial propaganda; without his will and guidance humanity would be lost in a very short time. Of course, humanity wouldn't be in such a situation if it wasn't for Him, but such is the grimness and the darkness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Of course you can't join a group if you don't follow their ideals. But that does not mean they are gonna kill you for that like everybody else in the galaxy. And about humans to be honest I don't know how they accept them. I assume they are still open in arms to other xeno species that want to work with them.

Tau expansion campaigns seek willing compliance first, but will absolutely resort to violent repression if that fails. They are every bit as totalitarian as the Imperium, but they're motivated by ideological rather than racial chauvinism. If you agree to serve their greater good, you can exist within their empire, but if you don't then they WILL kill you.

Tau don't enter a war if they can win a planet by diplomacy.

This idea that Tau go planet to planet asking "Do you want to enter the Greater Good?" and kill you if you don't want isn't how they work.

It took 20 years for the Wather Chaster Diplomants to make the Damocles Gulf Imperial Planets to secede from the imperium and join the Tau Empire.

But I was talking about the Farsight Enclaves in that part, Luciferian, not the Tau Empire.

 Galas wrote:
Tau don't enter a war if they can win a planet by diplomacy.

This idea that Tau go planet to planet asking "Do you want to enter the Greater Good?" and kill you if you don't want isn't how they work.

It took 20 years for the Wather Chaster Diplomants to make the Damocles Gulf Imperial Planets to secede from the imperium and join the Tau Empire.

But I was talking about the Farsight Enclaves in that part, Luciferian, not the Tau Empire.

How do you explain Nimbosa? It explicitly states the Tau assaulted the planet, and began a systematic extermination of the populace.

Or the Veil War? The Novum Deception? None of these were instigated by the Tau?

 Galas wrote:
Tau don't enter a war if they can win a planet by diplomacy.

This idea that Tau go planet to planet asking "Do you want to enter the Greater Good?" and kill you if you don't want isn't how they work.

It took 20 years for the Wather Chaster Diplomants to make the Damocles Gulf Imperial Planets to secede from the imperium and join the Tau Empire.

But I was talking about the Farsight Enclaves in that part, Luciferian, not the Tau Empire.

There are not too many examples to draw from in the fluff, but one in particular is the IoM industrial world Nimbosa. In the 6th edition Tau codex, there are a couple of pages dedicated to a short story about peace talks between the Tau and Imperial Fists. The ethereal involved basically flat out says that they're taking the world with or without consent and that any resistance will be met with violence. The Tau will not attack another species' colonies if it can assimilate them through diplomacy, true. They will also not attack if there's not a decent chance they can win. However, it's more about saving resources than any kind of moral qualms on their end. If diplomacy fails, and they have the available resources to do so, they will forcibly assimilate planets, systems and races.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Tau don't enter a war if they can win a planet by diplomacy.

This idea that Tau go planet to planet asking "Do you want to enter the Greater Good?" and kill you if you don't want isn't how they work.

It took 20 years for the Wather Chaster Diplomants to make the Damocles Gulf Imperial Planets to secede from the imperium and join the Tau Empire.

But I was talking about the Farsight Enclaves in that part, Luciferian, not the Tau Empire.

How do you explain Nimbosa? It explicitly states the Tau assaulted the planet, and began a systematic extermination of the populace.

Or the Veil War? The Novum Deception? None of these were instigated by the Tau?

 Luciferian wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Tau don't enter a war if they can win a planet by diplomacy.

This idea that Tau go planet to planet asking "Do you want to enter the Greater Good?" and kill you if you don't want isn't how they work.

It took 20 years for the Wather Chaster Diplomants to make the Damocles Gulf Imperial Planets to secede from the imperium and join the Tau Empire.

But I was talking about the Farsight Enclaves in that part, Luciferian, not the Tau Empire.

There are not too many examples to draw from in the fluff, but one in particular is the IoM industrial world Nimbosa. In the 6th edition Tau codex, there are a couple of pages dedicated to a short story about peace talks between the Tau and Imperial Fists. The ethereal involved basically flat out says that they're taking the world with or without consent and that any resistance will be met with violence. The Tau will not attack another species' colonies if it can assimilate them through diplomacy, true. They will also not attack if there's not a decent chance they can win. However, it's more about saving resources than any kind of moral qualms on their end. If diplomacy fails, and they have the available resources to do so, they will forcibly assimilate planets, systems and races.

Luciferian is totally right, I wasn't talking about "Ey guys the Tau are totally good guys, they don't attack if they can convince you". If they try diplomacy first is from a pure pragmatic point of view, not because they are good guys. Of course, that sets them appart as one of the only forces in the galaxy willing to do diplomacy in the first place.
Yeah, the Tau totally forcibly assimilate planets, system and races.
Now, it should be noted, that just like the Imperium, the Tau have a miriad of different commanders. Just like Creedd isnt a Chenkov, theres different Tau Commanders with different phylosophies. Ones are much more ruthless than others in their pursuid of the Greather Good. Even between the Ethereals you have a lot of variety, from dicks like Aun'va to legitimate good guys like Aun'shi.
Who was the Tau Commander that exterminated a whole human planet and for that savagery without measure was exiled of the Tau Empire? I can't remember his name. Something like that wouldn't have happened on the Imperium. If a Imperial Commander wipes out a whole planet of xenos population it will gain a medal, not exile

I'll say too that the Tau are one of the races with one of the more inconsistents and retconed backgrounds of the setting. Based on the autor, the edition, or the book, they go from good guys that do bad things because the galaxy is a dark place and this is a game about war, to Genocidal-BlueFishy-Nazis. I know theres many Tau fans that are totally negacionist about the Tau and what they do. Personally I prefer a middle ground. Not the totally good guys when they where first introduced, but not the "Ethereals are morning cartoon villains" that some authors have tried to made them.

Yeah, they're a bit harder to peg down than most factions. Their writing has been all over the place at times, probably because GW was still trying to feel out their identity when they were relatively new. Here's hoping they get more fleshed out with some interesting tidbits in the near future, especially with the promising Farsight Enclaves.

 Overread wrote:




Also whilst the Tau are not openly as brutal as the Imperium; they are still sinister. Are there not stories of whole populations being cleansed through chemical infertility. Tau are the Greater Good but they are not good unless you're a high ranking Tau. Their main difference is that unlike most other factions, Tau are not Xenophobic; they are willing to use you in their combined armies.

In one of the gakky expansions for the first DoW, sure. That's not canon.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Overread wrote:




Also whilst the Tau are not openly as brutal as the Imperium; they are still sinister. Are there not stories of whole populations being cleansed through chemical infertility. Tau are the Greater Good but they are not good unless you're a high ranking Tau. Their main difference is that unlike most other factions, Tau are not Xenophobic; they are willing to use you in their combined armies.

In one of the gakky expansions for the first DoW, sure. That's not canon.

Huh, somehow I missed that expansion...

M.

 Infantryman wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Overread wrote:




Also whilst the Tau are not openly as brutal as the Imperium; they are still sinister. Are there not stories of whole populations being cleansed through chemical infertility. Tau are the Greater Good but they are not good unless you're a high ranking Tau. Their main difference is that unlike most other factions, Tau are not Xenophobic; they are willing to use you in their combined armies.

In one of the gakky expansions for the first DoW, sure. That's not canon.

Huh, somehow I missed that expansion...

M.

Dawn of War: Dark Crusade

The Tau ending was one of the possible range of endings, but it apparently was not the canonical ending as later in the Dawn of War series there are references to the Blood Ravens being the winner of Dark Crusade. Therefore it is up for debate whether the Tau ending and its insinuations of deliberate measures to reduce human fertility or sterilize the human population should be accepted as canon indications of policy elsewhere in the Tau Empire.

Iracundus wrote:


Dawn of War: Dark Crusade

The Tau ending was one of the possible range of endings, but it apparently was not the canonical ending as later in the Dawn of War series there are references to the Blood Ravens being the winner of Dark Crusade. Therefore it is up for debate whether the Tau ending and its insinuations of deliberate measures to reduce human fertility or sterilize the human population should be accepted as canon indications of policy elsewhere in the Tau Empire.

Yep - I remember playing Winter Assault, but for whatever reason did not pick up Dark Crusade, and not long after I was winding down my involvement in anything 40k related so I just never went back.

M.

 Galas wrote:

The human race prospered even in the era of isolation that followed the dark age of technology, known as the age of strife, as empires or civilizations like the Interex and Adrantis Five, prove.
And I know "But this is grimdark!". I know! Thats why I love W40k and the Imperium. I just have done this post to try to open the eyes for some people that appears to be trapt under years and years of imperial propaganda as if they lived in Holy Terra themselves.

Of course that was when they were isolated which means isolated from enemies. Once warp storms abated isolated pocket empires would get eaten alive. Easier to survive when you have warp storm providing 1++ against enemy fleets!

Some sort of Imperium IS required. Isolated pocket civilizations aren't alone strong enough to defend themselves. Of course whether 40k Imperium is good enough but then again good luck for Interex and Adrantis Five to fend of Necrons, Hive fleet etc on their own without space marines, IG etc to help them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
What? Will all Orks just go for the galaxy looking for humans to exterminate them? Or Dark Eldars, or Tyranids?

That's pretty much their modus operandi. Run around galaxy looking for next fight. What you think orks would settle on their own planets because Imperium wouldn't be there? Imperium isn't doing invading around ork planets. Orks are jumping toward next planet looking for more fights. That remains the same whether there's Imperium or not.

Iracundus wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Overread wrote:




Also whilst the Tau are not openly as brutal as the Imperium; they are still sinister. Are there not stories of whole populations being cleansed through chemical infertility. Tau are the Greater Good but they are not good unless you're a high ranking Tau. Their main difference is that unlike most other factions, Tau are not Xenophobic; they are willing to use you in their combined armies.

In one of the gakky expansions for the first DoW, sure. That's not canon.

Huh, somehow I missed that expansion...

M.

Dawn of War: Dark Crusade

The Tau ending was one of the possible range of endings, but it apparently was not the canonical ending as later in the Dawn of War series there are references to the Blood Ravens being the winner of Dark Crusade. Therefore it is up for debate whether the Tau ending and its insinuations of deliberate measures to reduce human fertility or sterilize the human population should be accepted as canon indications of policy elsewhere in the Tau Empire.

*rather liked Dark Crusade*

In general Dark Crusade was the same war told from multiple different angles. So no one single ending was Canon in the game because whichever side the player chose to play as won. If you chose necron they won; if you chose marines they won etc... It's only when the sequel was published that the "canon" ending for the series was identified.

There's also the Tau response to the Imperial counter-invasion of Taros; POWs were either killed outright or worked to death. Partly as revenge for the assassination of the local Ethereal.

Back on-topic, the Imperium - or something like it - is also necessary to keep emergent psykers under control. When one unruly child could be enough to drag an entire planet to hell, it's hard to avoid having people dragged away in the middle of the night.

Personally, I don't think the Imperium is necessary for humanity's survival at all. It's necessary for humanity being the dominant power in the galaxy, but not at all for its survival.

Humans can and do survive perfectly well on chaos-tainted planets, and it's perfectly possible for a large human civilisation to develop under Chaos.

It's not even as if life under Chaos would be noticeably worse than life in the Imperium. Higher likelihood of being mind-fethed by daemons, but at least if you're smart and powerful you can gain favour in the eyes of the Gods. They'd even offer protection from threats like Orks and Tyranids (protecting their livestock).

It's not even as if there's some moral high ground for the Imperium being ruled by humans. It was founded and ruled by a quasi-human warp entity with only the most tenuous connection to humans (which differs from the Chaos Gods in little other than scale and semantics).

Which would you prefer to live under? Warp God A or Warp God B?

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Personally, I don't think the Imperium is necessary for humanity's survival at all. It's necessary for humanity being the dominant power in the galaxy, but not at all for its survival.

Humans can and do survive perfectly well on chaos-tainted planets, and it's perfectly possible for a large human civilisation to develop under Chaos.

It's not even as if life under Chaos would be noticeably worse than life in the Imperium. Higher likelihood of being mind-fethed by daemons, but at least if you're smart and powerful you can gain favour in the eyes of the Gods. They'd even offer protection from threats like Orks and Tyranids (protecting their livestock).

It's not even as if there's some moral high ground for the Imperium being ruled by humans. It was founded and ruled by a quasi-human warp entity with only the most tenuous connection to humans (which differs from the Chaos Gods in little other than scale and semantics).

Which would you prefer to live under? Warp God A or Warp God B?

Neither?

I don't think anyone is saying the Imperium is a great place to live, but Chaos is even worse.

To Chaos, humans would be like cattle. Remember the "laughter of thirsting gods" part? The only reason the Chaos Gods would keep Humanity alive is because it's better to farm cattle than to gluttonously devour them all in a single fell swoop. Chaos daemons and gods are the type of entities that would kill you, put your soul in an aquarium, tap on the glass, resurrect you, and kill you again for the giggles.

At least in the Imperium, some of the more stable planets are actually rather nice places.

In some novels you read about planets like Vervunhive from Necropolis or Paragon from Baneblade, and the first sounds a bit like your typical cyberpunk sci-fi land, until it is abruptly beset by all-consuming daemons from literal hell and the grimdark starts, and the other one sounds like 18th Century Europe, complete with rapier duels between aristocrats. The Imperium isn't just bad for the sake of bad; it's actually rather civilized on most stable worlds.

Thats one of the reasons I liked more Fantasy Chaos than 40k Chaos.

Norsca and other human worshiper Chaos tribes were very "human". They feel as legitimate places to live. Their Gods where bloodthirsty yes, but no different than other Gods of the universe. They lived with the Chaos "gifts" in a totally natural way. I loved the little story of the Mariemburg merchant in a Norsca tribe in the old "Hordes of Chaos" book of 6th edition, talking with his norscan guide.