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The last time I used a unit of Inceptors, three of them with assault bolters destroyed completely a unit of 7 Plague Marines in the same turn they did deepstrike.

The answer will be the same "Agaisn't horde armies with a loot of chaff and bubblewrap they suck", and with the meta being horde armies with a lot of chaff, they don't have a place in the most competitive tournaments.

But as a unit, they are pretty solid agaisn't the 90% rest of the game.

So? Tigirius costs points, too.

 buddha wrote:
Problem I have with Inceptors is that even with the cost reduction I'm always left wondering why I wouldn't just bring terminators which do much the same job and have considerably more survivability.

I doubt termis have more survivability. Even if they have, inceptors are superior in every other way.

Martel732 wrote:
Repulsors are terrible tanks for their insane cost. The lack of 2+ armor makes them so squishy.

36+ shots starting at S4 is nothing to scoff at, plus it gets your hellblasters and agressors into kill range. Sure they are expensive but they are no push over.

Once you start stacking -1 to hit and cover bonuses, those S4 AP 0 shots are mostly garbage vs most lists. It can get 4 lascannon equivalent shots, but two of them are 24" only.

And the thing dies VERY quickly to lascannons. But really, any S5 dakka or greater chip it down unacceptably quickly. The S5 doesn't even need AP at all since it's only got a 3+. The devil is always in the details.

Martel732 wrote:
Once you start stacking -1 to hit and cover bonuses, those S4 AP 0 shots are mostly garbage vs most lists. It can get 4 lascannon equivalent shots, but two of them are 24" only.

And the thing dies VERY quickly to lascannons. But really, any S5 dakka or greater chip it down unacceptably quickly. The S5 doesn't even need AP at all since it's only got a 3+. The devil is always in the details.

So basically never take any vehicle ever then unless its razorback spam?

Lascannons will kill all vehicles in short order, thats where clever positioning and target priority can work in your favor.

I like to think of space marines and as a clock, each part needs to be in working order for the system to function at its potential. Lascannon predators offer hard counters to your opponents anti tank, whirlwinds can clear out things like devastators. You say that all those S4 shots are for nothing but I have a feeling that few people think that way about massed BS 5 lasguns from conscripts. Number of dice rolled equals more chances of failure, and after a certain point most vehicles and monsters become useless even when they aren't dead.

In a vacuum this may not be an ideal vehicle, but under your rubric what is?

Wave serpent. Perfect in every phase of the game.

I don't like paying more than 200 for anything in this game. I'd prefer 150, but even an autolas pred is more than that. Being a marine kinda sucks when everything dies easy.

Thats not how units should be made. There souldn't be units that are perfect in every phase of the game. But Martel, you have a min/maxer mind, so obviously for you, theres only two options: You are the best option, or you aren't an option.

Don't saying thats a bad thing, if you want to compete in warhammer is how you need to think. But personally for me thats a road that only leads to disappointment.

Also, the repulsor is always a priority because i can knock out the most points per lascannon shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Thats not how units should be made. There souldn't be units that are perfect in every phase of the game. But Martel, you have a min/maxer mind, so obviously for you, theres only two options: You are the best option, or you aren't an option.

Don't saying thats a bad thing, if you want to compete in warhammer is how you need to think. But personally for me thats a road that only leads to disappointment.

Maybe you are right. I just can't justify the point cost on the repulsor, though.

 Galas wrote:
Thats not how units should be made. There souldn't be units that are perfect in every phase of the game. But Martel, you have a min/maxer mind, so obviously for you, theres only two options: You are the best option, or you aren't an option.

Don't saying thats a bad thing, if you want to compete in warhammer is how you need to think. But personally for me thats a road that only leads to disappointment.

I totally agree, we too often boil things to "if it isn't somewhat overpowered and undercosted, then its not even worth my time!" instead of actually....trying things out? Same reason I do not believe in math hammer beyond the basics, when you are arguing .01 in efficiency instead of how good of a tactician you are it breaks down the game into who goes first wins.

The key thing here is the cost vs. how easy it is to kill.

Roughly speaking, what is its usual offensive loadout? BS3+ right?

They don't seem terrible anymore but I feel like you're basically always going to prefer two heavy bolter Devastators in cover. If you don't run into much anti- heavy infantry weaponry like plasma then they probably do okay dropping down into cover and shooting.

You probably want to be either Raven Guard or Salamanders with them, though that's not surprising since you want to be Raven Guard or Salamanders with everything unless you're bringing Guilliman. Yes, the RG tactic only helps you past 12", but the main thing you're scared of will be long-range multi-damage good-AP weapons, aside from plasma. Many of these are heavy, and so even if the enemy could move to get within 12", they'd still shoot at -1. Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic works out to be almost as good as Bolter Drill when you're only firing 18 shots.

Martel the Repulsor is a pimp tank not a Pinto.

It dies like a Pinto. So you are partially correct.

 Galas wrote:
The last time I used a unit of Inceptors, three of them with assault bolters destroyed completely a unit of 7 Plague Marines in the same turn they did deepstrike.

The answer will be the same "Agaisn't horde armies with a loot of chaff and bubblewrap they suck", and with the meta being horde armies with a lot of chaff, they don't have a place in the most competitive tournaments.

But as a unit, they are pretty solid agaisn't the 90% rest of the game.

I think you were expected by "mathammer" to inflict 2 casualties, but this is what sometimes happens when you roll many dice.
When it swings, it can surprise you!

Dionysodorus wrote:
They don't seem terrible anymore but I feel like you're basically always going to prefer two heavy bolter Devastators in cover. If you don't run into much anti- heavy infantry weaponry like plasma then they probably do okay dropping down into cover and shooting.

You probably want to be either Raven Guard or Salamanders with them, though that's not surprising since you want to be Raven Guard or Salamanders with everything unless you're bringing Guilliman. Yes, the RG tactic only helps you past 12", but the main thing you're scared of will be long-range multi-damage good-AP weapons, aside from plasma. Many of these are heavy, and so even if the enemy could move to get within 12", they'd still shoot at -1. Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic works out to be almost as good as Bolter Drill when you're only firing 18 shots.

All good points, but for the same shots, Inceptors actually come out cheaper than their dakka equivalent in Devs now. They're different units, but they have some big advantages vs Devs, including deepstrike, nullifying the very common -1 to hit, filling out the pretty naff fast attack slot, respectable CC, especially with fly disengage, great maneuverability with assault & 10" move, instead of heavy with 6", and finally T5. Not saying they're better than HB Devs, just that it's nice now they're not straight up worse, point for point.

Dionysodorus wrote:
They don't seem terrible anymore but I feel like you're basically always going to prefer two heavy bolter Devastators in cover. If you don't run into much anti- heavy infantry weaponry like plasma then they probably do okay dropping down into cover and shooting.

You probably want to be either Raven Guard or Salamanders with them, though that's not surprising since you want to be Raven Guard or Salamanders with everything unless you're bringing Guilliman. Yes, the RG tactic only helps you past 12", but the main thing you're scared of will be long-range multi-damage good-AP weapons, aside from plasma. Many of these are heavy, and so even if the enemy could move to get within 12", they'd still shoot at -1. Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic works out to be almost as good as Bolter Drill when you're only firing 18 shots.

Chapter Tactics don't work on vehicles.

grouchoben wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
They don't seem terrible anymore but I feel like you're basically always going to prefer two heavy bolter Devastators in cover. If you don't run into much anti- heavy infantry weaponry like plasma then they probably do okay dropping down into cover and shooting.

You probably want to be either Raven Guard or Salamanders with them, though that's not surprising since you want to be Raven Guard or Salamanders with everything unless you're bringing Guilliman. Yes, the RG tactic only helps you past 12", but the main thing you're scared of will be long-range multi-damage good-AP weapons, aside from plasma. Many of these are heavy, and so even if the enemy could move to get within 12", they'd still shoot at -1. Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic works out to be almost as good as Bolter Drill when you're only firing 18 shots.

All good points, but for the same shots, Inceptors actually come out cheaper than their dakka equivalent in Devs now. They're different units, but they have some big advantages vs Devs, including deepstrike, nullifying the very common -1 to hit, filling out the pretty naff fast attack slot, respectable CC, especially with fly disengage, great maneuverability with assault & 10" move, instead of heavy with 6", and finally T5. Not saying they're better than HB Devs, just that it's nice now they're not straight up worse, point for point.

I think the mobility of this unit will help it find a good niche. I can imagine it being a hard hitting unit that can come in as either an alpha strike or land later and strike vulnerable units like artillery, all while being able to nab objectives on the fly.

Repulsors win games of 40k. They are a place to put your hellblasters, and your characters if you're worried about getting first turn. Since you're going to have hellblasters and characters, a repulsor is a great pick.

I don't actually think Inceptors are yet at the point where they are needed in every list, but they do look viable. The problem I have when building a list is that they are fast attack, but nothing else good is! I'm trying to build a list where I get a battalion plus some other detachment for a 7th CP, and Inceptors don't help with that at all.

A quad-heavy bolter mortis dreadnought looks like an interesting potential alternative. It has the same firepower as two Inceptors, for 19 points more, but with double their range. Unlike things like the Sicaran Punisher or repulsor it benefits (a lot) from my Crimson Fist CTs. It's cheap and it's nasty.

Twin assault cannon tarantulas went up by 10pts, but you're still buying 12 S6 BS4 shots for 55pts, with no target choice restrictions. Two with an inceptor squad comes in at 245pts for a lot of dakka (i.e 42 shots)!

p5freak wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
They don't seem terrible anymore but I feel like you're basically always going to prefer two heavy bolter Devastators in cover. If you don't run into much anti- heavy infantry weaponry like plasma then they probably do okay dropping down into cover and shooting.

You probably want to be either Raven Guard or Salamanders with them, though that's not surprising since you want to be Raven Guard or Salamanders with everything unless you're bringing Guilliman. Yes, the RG tactic only helps you past 12", but the main thing you're scared of will be long-range multi-damage good-AP weapons, aside from plasma. Many of these are heavy, and so even if the enemy could move to get within 12", they'd still shoot at -1. Meanwhile the Salamanders' tactic works out to be almost as good as Bolter Drill when you're only firing 18 shots.

Chapter Tactics don't work on vehicles.

Inceptors aren't vehicles.

Martel732 wrote:
It dies like a Pinto. So you are partially correct.

A pinto or a cadillac crashing at 60mph are both going to look like a pinto in the end.

hide the damn thing behind LOS first turn and hope for the best if facing an unreasonable amount of las spam.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The last time I used a unit of Inceptors, three of them with assault bolters destroyed completely a unit of 7 Plague Marines in the same turn they did deepstrike.

The answer will be the same "Agaisn't horde armies with a loot of chaff and bubblewrap they suck", and with the meta being horde armies with a lot of chaff, they don't have a place in the most competitive tournaments.

But as a unit, they are pretty solid agaisn't the 90% rest of the game.

I think you were expected by "mathammer" to inflict 2 casualties, but this is what sometimes happens when you roll many dice.
When it swings, it can surprise you!

And it feels soooo good...

 Galas wrote:
Thats not how units should be made. There souldn't be units that are perfect in every phase of the game. But Martel, you have a min/maxer mind, so obviously for you, theres only two options: You are the best option, or you aren't an option.

Don't saying thats a bad thing, if you want to compete in warhammer is how you need to think. But personally for me thats a road that only leads to disappointment.

Everyone is a min/maxer after they have been round 1 alpha striked into pointlessness a few times. Or tabled by round 3. And why not? These models are expensive and painstaking to put together, and nobody likes losing.

Gwarok wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Thats not how units should be made. There souldn't be units that are perfect in every phase of the game. But Martel, you have a min/maxer mind, so obviously for you, theres only two options: You are the best option, or you aren't an option.

Don't saying thats a bad thing, if you want to compete in warhammer is how you need to think. But personally for me thats a road that only leads to disappointment.

Everyone is a min/maxer after they have been round 1 alpha striked into pointlessness a few times. Or tabled by round 3. And why not? These models are expensive and painstaking to put together, and nobody likes losing.

QFT

Gwarok wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Thats not how units should be made. There souldn't be units that are perfect in every phase of the game. But Martel, you have a min/maxer mind, so obviously for you, theres only two options: You are the best option, or you aren't an option.

Don't saying thats a bad thing, if you want to compete in warhammer is how you need to think. But personally for me thats a road that only leads to disappointment.

Everyone is a min/maxer after they have been round 1 alpha striked into pointlessness a few times. Or tabled by round 3. And why not? These models are expensive and painstaking to put together, and nobody likes losing.

There's powergaming and cheesing though. Sure, I like to build strong lists but I also want to put an army on the table that makes at least a little bit of fluff sense. So no Magnus and Mortarion in the same army. Or Cawl, Guilliman and Celestine in the same army at 2k points (sure, if the entire galaxy was threatened to go boom I could see them fight together on the same battlefield, but those are battle scales in which even a Warlord Titan would be just "one of many" and certainly not your average 2k game). Or Alpha Legion infiltrating Berzerkers, which make about as much sense as Ork Sniperz.

Pandabeer wrote:

Gwarok wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Thats not how units should be made. There souldn't be units that are perfect in every phase of the game. But Martel, you have a min/maxer mind, so obviously for you, theres only two options: You are the best option, or you aren't an option.

Don't saying thats a bad thing, if you want to compete in warhammer is how you need to think. But personally for me thats a road that only leads to disappointment.

Everyone is a min/maxer after they have been round 1 alpha striked into pointlessness a few times. Or tabled by round 3. And why not? These models are expensive and painstaking to put together, and nobody likes losing.

There's powergaming and cheesing though. Sure, I like to build strong lists but I also want to put an army on the table that makes at least a little bit of fluff sense. So no Magnus and Mortarion in the same army. Or Cawl, Guilliman and Celestine in the same army at 2k points (sure, if the entire galaxy was threatened to go boom I could see them fight together on the same battlefield, but those are battle scales in which even a Warlord Titan would be just "one of many" and certainly not your average 2k game). Or Alpha Legion infiltrating Berzerkers, which make about as much sense as Ork Sniperz.

Yeah, it kind of bugs me that all Chaos Space marines are now Alpha Legion *or are they???* and all Space Marines are now Raven Guard/Raptors. I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope they re-evaluate some of these things and do what AoS has done with their formations and simply remove or replace certain chapter tactics and stratagems in the future. I want to see World Eaters, Emeperors Children, Black Templars, Irons Hands, and everyone else on the field and not feel like that's a "fluffy" only game. Granted I play fluff style myself but its disheartening to see all the stuff repeated over and over again with little to no variation when theres a veritable bounty of excellent chapters and strategems out there.

Alpha Legion Berzerkers are Mary Sues of Chaos SM now.

 Primark G wrote:
Alpha Legion Berzerkers are Mary Sues of Chaos SM now.

One of the reasons why cheap Scouts are very good in Primaris lists. It stops deep strike and infiltration, giving a fighting chance. I'd also pack a TFC to slow Gene Stealers, Sanguinary Guard and Khorne Berserkers with the Strategem. You don't even need line of sight for that.

p5freak wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Problem I have with Inceptors is that even with the cost reduction I'm always left wondering why I wouldn't just bring terminators which do much the same job and have considerably more survivability.

I doubt termis have more survivability. Even if they have, inceptors are superior in every other way.

Terminators are a bit more survivable with a 2+ and an invulnerable save. But unless they can all bring assault cannons they shoot worse and they move half as fast.