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Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

Nah, melta's pretty bad.

And if we're going to start factoring the cost for rerolls on plasma's value while excluding it for melta's, then we should also be factoring in the cost of transports for melta units, since they tend to require a separate delivery system to attain their optimal performance much more than plasma does.

And a Taurox costs a hell of a lot more than a Tempestor Prime.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/28 10:55:42


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Upstate, New York

I think the mechanics for the meltagun are fine, they are just overpriced.

Multimeltas are in a bad spot however. Like their little brother, they are overcosted. That would be an easy fix. But the close range coupled with the heavy type is rough. Putting them on a footslogger was never an optimal choice, but at least they were cheep as far as guns went. But they were on a lot of vehicles, which got to move and shoot without issue. All those platforms (speeders, bikes, dreads, etc) are not nearly as nice as they used to be. I think they are still useful on things with PotMS (like ravens and land raiders), as they get to ignore the -1 to hit for moving. But even on a good platform, they are still expensive for what they do.

It’s not like the melta’s niche wasn’t already being eroded. HP stripping was the preferred way of killing tanks for a while now. But 8th has not been kind to the melta.

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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






Going to chuck this into the mix: give Multimeltas Heavy 2? Or D3? Pretty sure they used to get a template back in 1st/2nd ed.
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission



Eastern VA

Multi-shot multimeltas would give a good reason to prefer them over lascannons, yes. I'd rather have two shots at R24 S8 AP-4 Dd6 than one at R48 S9 AP-3 Dd6. At that point, special melta rule or not, the multimelta becomes mostly just better at killing tanks (and monsters - they're now functionally isomorphic) than the lascannon, with the exception of range.

Might be slightly OP on some platforms, but I doubt it, and I'd be willing to take the risk.

I would want two shots, though, not d3 shots. Not more randomness here, meltas are already too random. I'd greatly prefer 3 damage to d6 (look at why Dark Reapers rule and missile devs are OK but not great), with d3+3 or even flat 6 at half range. (Granted, a squad of Dominions, Fire Dragons or Crisis Suits dishing out 6 damage per failed save would be really really mean, maybe too mean.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/28 16:09:19


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Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord






Historically Multi-Meltas were basically a short range template lascannon, that was its whole battlefield role. I'll admit back in the RT/2nd ed. days weapons were a lot fewer, but they all fulfilled a role lacked by other weapons.

Armies now are filled with weapons which are way too close to each other (really there are just way too many weapons which don't need special rules).

I do think the Multi-Melta should be Heavy D3 or something in that vein.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/28 21:48:11


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

NO it wouldn't. I would rather overcharge Plasma without rerolls every time rather than go into Melta range. The Melta Gun is that bad.


Melta guns arent bad. You are using them wrong.

Do tell then.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Germany

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Do tell then.


I already did. Its a defensive weapon. Dont try to bring the melta to your enemy, let the enemy come to you. Wait until large monsters, large daemons charge you, fallback, and melt them. This works well when you play BA. A 2 model unit of company veterans with 4 inferno pistols is hiding in a transport, pops out, and kills em.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 07:11:10


 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

...But plasma does that just as well (not that I'd consider that a particularly viable strategy), except you can fire from far enough range that those melee targets actually have to come to you. Most of which being slow enough that you might as well just pop them with some proper artillery long before they even touch your line.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 07:16:21


 
   
Made in de
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Germany

 Fafnir wrote:
...But plasma does that just as well (not that I'd consider that a particularly viable strategy), except you can fire from far enough range that those melee targets actually have to come to you. Most of which being slow enough that you might as well just pop them with some proper artillery long before they even touch your line.


How do you pop a monster or daemon from the distance when its not in the battlefield, deepstrikes 9" away from you, rerolling its charge ? A hive tyrant with wings moving 2*16" = 32" plus charge distance is slow ? A warptimed flying daemon with 24" move plus charge distance is slow ??
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

And in those cases, what does melta do that plasma doesn't?
   
Made in de
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Germany

 Fafnir wrote:
And in those cases, what does melta do that plasma doesn't?


S8 AP-4 2D6 damage discarding lowest, rerolling one dice if necessary, thats three dice to roll a 6. Plasma must be overcharged to get to S8, only AP-3, a chance of blowup, and can do 4 damage at most (unless you play DA). I'm the master of blowups, i popped my captain with plasma three times so far. Granted, AP normally doesnt matter, large monsters or deamons usually have an invuln sv of 4-5+.
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





p5freak wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
And in those cases, what does melta do that plasma doesn't?


S8 AP-4 2D6 damage discarding lowest, rerolling one dice if necessary, thats three dice to roll a 6. Plasma must be overcharged to get to S8, only AP-3, a chance of blowup, and can do 4 damage at most (unless you play DA). I'm the master of blowups, i popped my captain with plasma three times so far. Granted, AP normally doesnt matter, large monsters or deamons usually have an invuln sv of 4-5+.


Reroll for melta costs CP and is also usable for plasma. But let's see.

2 shots with BS3+ against T8 2+. 0.88 wounds. Melta(in melta range) averages 1.25(0.97 outside melta range) and no risk of blowing up. So yeah there IS niche for meltas. Problem comes it's fairly small niche, expensive gun and bad against lots of stuff which plasma is still good.

Melta pays premium for being better against tough targets within 6". And multi-melta suffers a lot from -1 to hit on move which it needs to do often to get to that melta range.

Having narrow niche isn't all that bad. 42% more wounds than plasma against T8 2+ guys within melta range isn't that bad. Problem is it needs to be reflected in points. When there's weapon that's murder against everything and like 75% of melta's price it's hard for melta to compete.

”Buddhism doesn't tell you what is false and what is true but it encourages you to find out for yourself.” ~ Chogyam Trungpa ~ 
   
Made in de
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Germany

tneva82 wrote:

Reroll for melta costs CP and is also usable for plasma.


How do you reroll plasma damage ?

tneva82 wrote:

And multi-melta suffers a lot from -1 to hit on move which it needs to do often to get to that melta range.


Multimelta is not worth it.
   
Made in no
Regular Dakkanaut






As i see it, for a CQC anti armor wep it is too weak.
Had it been assult2 12" max range whit a point cost rebalanced, then i think i would have selected it, but as it is right now i see no reason to select melta over lascannon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 11:02:28


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Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





p5freak wrote:
tneva82 wrote:

Reroll for melta costs CP and is also usable for plasma.


How do you reroll plasma damage ?

tneva82 wrote:

And multi-melta suffers a lot from -1 to hit on move which it needs to do often to get to that melta range.


Multimelta is not worth it.


Not damage but who said there's only one dice roll for weapon that affects efficiency? So if you say "you can reroll damage for melta" you need to factor in reroll for plasma as well that will also boost it's damage.

Last time I checked I don't just automatically cause 2 points of damage with plasma shot but roll indeed more than 1 dice before I get to do that.

”Buddhism doesn't tell you what is false and what is true but it encourages you to find out for yourself.” ~ Chogyam Trungpa ~ 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

No matter how you cut it, relying on melta to do anything on overwatch is a terrible idea, and does not make for a reasonable niche for a weapon so expensive. A melta gun does 0.19 wounds against a Flyrant in overwatch. Sure, you'll get an occasional lucky hit, but it's not realistically anything to plan around or spend points for.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I think melta needs 2X strength inside melta range and see how that works.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Change the melta rule to +4 str and damage becomes 3+d3 in melta range?

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Or they ignore invulns inside melta range.
   
Made in ca
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator






Martel732 wrote:
Or they ignore invulns inside melta range.


I bet you wouldn't have considered that if every other model didn't have an invuln save
   
Made in de
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Germany

 Fafnir wrote:
No matter how you cut it, relying on melta to do anything on overwatch is a terrible idea, and does not make for a reasonable niche for a weapon so expensive. A melta gun does 0.19 wounds against a Flyrant in overwatch. Sure, you'll get an occasional lucky hit, but it's not realistically anything to plan around or spend points for.


Overwatch ?? Who said something about overwatch ?? I didnt. This is what i said :

"Dont try to bring the melta to your enemy, let the enemy come to you. Wait until large monsters, large daemons charge you, fallback, and melt them. This works well when you play BA. A 2 model unit of company veterans with 4 inferno pistols is hiding in a transport, pops out, and kills em."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 22:33:17


 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

To which my original point, which went entirely unaddressed, is that plasma already does that just as well while providing much more additional usability, consistency, and at a lower cost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 23:15:14


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Do tell then.


I already did. Its a defensive weapon. Dont try to bring the melta to your enemy, let the enemy come to you. Wait until large monsters, large daemons charge you, fallback, and melt them. This works well when you play BA. A 2 model unit of company veterans with 4 inferno pistols is hiding in a transport, pops out, and kills em.

1. You can't shoot if you fall back unless you're Flying or Ultramarines
2. Inferno Pistols are not Melta Guns
3. Melta Guns are still 17 to the Plasma's 13

Your argument was bad.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Germany

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Do tell then.


I already did. Its a defensive weapon. Dont try to bring the melta to your enemy, let the enemy come to you. Wait until large monsters, large daemons charge you, fallback, and melt them. This works well when you play BA. A 2 model unit of company veterans with 4 inferno pistols is hiding in a transport, pops out, and kills em.


1. You can't shoot if you fall back unless you're Flying or Ultramarines
2. Inferno Pistols are not Melta Guns
3. Melta Guns are still 17 to the Plasma's 13


1. Where did i say that the company vets fallback ? They are in a transport, safe from attacks, pop out, and shoot. The charged unit falls back.
2. Its a weapon with S8 AP-4 2D6 damage at half range, discarding lowest. Thats a melta.
3. Yes.
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

So, once again... nothing of particular note that makes it worth taking over plasma in any meaningful measure.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Do tell then.


I already did. Its a defensive weapon. Dont try to bring the melta to your enemy, let the enemy come to you. Wait until large monsters, large daemons charge you, fallback, and melt them. This works well when you play BA. A 2 model unit of company veterans with 4 inferno pistols is hiding in a transport, pops out, and kills em.


This sounds like you just play against some very bad players. If someone told me "I have this squad with 4 melta shots riding inside this rhino." I wouldn't mindlessly send big stuff that direction.

Your perception of the usefulness of things in the game CAN be wildly thrown off by the skill level you play against.

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Made in de
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Germany

 niv-mizzet wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Do tell then.


I already did. Its a defensive weapon. Dont try to bring the melta to your enemy, let the enemy come to you. Wait until large monsters, large daemons charge you, fallback, and melt them. This works well when you play BA. A 2 model unit of company veterans with 4 inferno pistols is hiding in a transport, pops out, and kills em.


This sounds like you just play against some very bad players. If someone told me "I have this squad with 4 melta shots riding inside this rhino." I wouldn't mindlessly send big stuff that direction.

Your perception of the usefulness of things in the game CAN be wildly thrown off by the skill level you play against.


I'm fine if my tiny squad of two models with 4 inferno pistols for 68 pts is enough to scare your 200+ pts. daemon/monster away from the objective they are guarding.
   
Made in ca
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






Vancouver, BC

More like Mehlta.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Do tell then.


I already did. Its a defensive weapon. Dont try to bring the melta to your enemy, let the enemy come to you. Wait until large monsters, large daemons charge you, fallback, and melt them. This works well when you play BA. A 2 model unit of company veterans with 4 inferno pistols is hiding in a transport, pops out, and kills em.


1. You can't shoot if you fall back unless you're Flying or Ultramarines
2. Inferno Pistols are not Melta Guns
3. Melta Guns are still 17 to the Plasma's 13


1. Where did i say that the company vets fallback ? They are in a transport, safe from attacks, pop out, and shoot. The charged unit falls back.
2. Its a weapon with S8 AP-4 2D6 damage at half range, discarding lowest. Thats a melta.
3. Yes.

1. You can do the same with Plasma and save points. 6 more points over a Melta Gun is two Plasma Guns, or 34 points for 2 Melta Guns vs 39 for 3 Plasma Guns. Pretty obvious what's more reliable at that point.
2. Melta Gun =/= Melta Rule. Inferno Pistols are meh in the first place, in which their only saving grace is that they MIGHT be used in melee (unlikely), and a Multi-Melta being 27 points is pretty laughable.
3. The point stands that the saved points add up.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

p5freak wrote:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Do tell then.


I already did. Its a defensive weapon. Dont try to bring the melta to your enemy, let the enemy come to you. Wait until large monsters, large daemons charge you, fallback, and melt them. This works well when you play BA. A 2 model unit of company veterans with 4 inferno pistols is hiding in a transport, pops out, and kills em.


This sounds like you just play against some very bad players. If someone told me "I have this squad with 4 melta shots riding inside this rhino." I wouldn't mindlessly send big stuff that direction.

Your perception of the usefulness of things in the game CAN be wildly thrown off by the skill level you play against.


I'm fine if my tiny squad of two models with 4 inferno pistols for 68 pts is enough to scare your 200+ pts. daemon/monster away from the objective they are guarding.


And when you're playing kill points, or they snagged first blood with first turn and don't care about coming to take your objectives because they win in an objective draw? Or if they just do the not-stupid thing and send smaller wound models at them? Y'know, the ones that the cheaper plasma would still be decent against while also scaring the big stuff a moderate amount?

And you missed the points for the transport you mentioned, so that's 140 at least just to make their monster decide to tackle a different front and still do damage to your army even in your ideal situation. Not a good strategy against anyone who's not sleep-playing.

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