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Disciple of Fate wrote:Sure, aliens exist, that is a pretty safe assumption based on the sheer size of the universe.

Them coming here and just flying about for a hundred years or so? Main counterargument would be a simple "why?" Any sufficiently advanced race must have much better ways of even just 'monitoring' us beyond randomly flying around.

Never mind the Universe, the Galaxy alone should suffice!

Iron_Captain wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, aliens exist, that is a pretty safe assumption based on the sheer size of the universe.

Them coming here and just flying about for a hundred years or so? Main counterargument would be a simple "why?" Any sufficiently advanced race must have much better ways of even just 'monitoring' us beyond randomly flying around.

That is supposing aliens (should they exist) actually care about us and are interested in monitoring us though. If these UFO's were alien craft or beings, they could be doing a myriad things flying around Earth.
Until the day the existence of aliens is definitely proven, and we have an idea of what aliens actually are, any discussion about aliens, their nature and their motives is pretty much meaningless. How can we discuss something if we don't even know what we are talking about? It is as useless as arguing about the nature of God or any other unknowable thing.

Pretty sure those are good reasons to actually HAVE discussions about these kinds of things.

 Alpharius wrote:

Disciple of Fate wrote:Sure, aliens exist, that is a pretty safe assumption based on the sheer size of the universe.

Them coming here and just flying about for a hundred years or so? Main counterargument would be a simple "why?" Any sufficiently advanced race must have much better ways of even just 'monitoring' us beyond randomly flying around.

Never mind the Universe, the Galaxy alone should suffice!

Iron_Captain wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, aliens exist, that is a pretty safe assumption based on the sheer size of the universe.

Them coming here and just flying about for a hundred years or so? Main counterargument would be a simple "why?" Any sufficiently advanced race must have much better ways of even just 'monitoring' us beyond randomly flying around.

That is supposing aliens (should they exist) actually care about us and are interested in monitoring us though. If these UFO's were alien craft or beings, they could be doing a myriad things flying around Earth.
Until the day the existence of aliens is definitely proven, and we have an idea of what aliens actually are, any discussion about aliens, their nature and their motives is pretty much meaningless. How can we discuss something if we don't even know what we are talking about? It is as useless as arguing about the nature of God or any other unknowable thing.

Pretty sure those are good reasons to actually HAVE discussions about these kinds of things.

Well, it is interesting, that is for sure. But I just don't see how any a discussion on aliens could be useful in any way beyond the 'fun factor'. We know nothing, and all we have to offer is our fantasy.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, aliens exist, that is a pretty safe assumption based on the sheer size of the universe.

Them coming here and just flying about for a hundred years or so? Main counterargument would be a simple "why?" Any sufficiently advanced race must have much better ways of even just 'monitoring' us beyond randomly flying around.

That is supposing aliens (should they exist) actually care about us and are interested in monitoring us though. If these UFO's were alien craft or beings, they could be doing a myriad things flying around Earth.

Until the day the existence of aliens is definitely proven, and we have an idea of what aliens actually are, any discussion about aliens, their nature and their motives is pretty much meaningless. How can we discuss something if we don't even know what we are talking about? It is as useless as arguing about the nature of God or any other unknowable thing.

Just for the record. Personally, given the truly vast, unimaginably huge scale of the universe, I find it statistically highly likely that alien life exists. The probability however that the Human race ever gets to meet them before going extinct? Highly unlikely, even if our species should last for a hundred million years and spreads itself to the far corners of the Milky Way. The universe is just so big, the whole Milky Way is only an insignificant speck in it.

True, but we can question the underlying logic of them just flying about and abducting random yokels. As you might be aware, there is a large amount of debate on the nature of God too Its fun to do, but to us, logically there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason behind what 'UFOs' are doing here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:

Disciple of Fate wrote:Sure, aliens exist, that is a pretty safe assumption based on the sheer size of the universe.

Them coming here and just flying about for a hundred years or so? Main counterargument would be a simple "why?" Any sufficiently advanced race must have much better ways of even just 'monitoring' us beyond randomly flying around.

Never mind the Universe, the Galaxy alone should suffice!

I already have my towel and guide ready for that part

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, aliens exist, that is a pretty safe assumption based on the sheer size of the universe.

Them coming here and just flying about for a hundred years or so? Main counterargument would be a simple "why?" Any sufficiently advanced race must have much better ways of even just 'monitoring' us beyond randomly flying around.

Just a hundred years? Perhaps throughout human history and beyond. The visible universe is 13 billion years old as far as we can tell, and there's no reason to believe aliens had to evolve in only the most recent hundred million years. I can't even begin to speculate what might motivate members of a civilization that may be any number of eons old with pretense towards accuracy. For all we know they are just amusing themselves at our expense the way toddlers like to chase ducks.

Perhaps the answer to the Fermi Paradox is not that aliens don't exist or don't communicate. It might just be that we dismiss the evidence they do give us as imlausible and discard it.

Assuming these objects are alien in origin. Perhaps they represent some unknown natural phenomenon we've never anticipated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why wouldn't UFO's abduct yokels? Are they supposed to drop into the big city unobserved so they can abduct some educated sophisticate?

Also, considering the breadth of people who have reported UFO sightings and even abductions, you are really doing them a disservice by dismissing them all as yokels. Have you read their accounts? Or do you just go by the prevailing wisdom that this is all bunk? Again, you can't study something unknown if you decide you already know what it is and don't care before you even look at it.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sure, aliens exist, that is a pretty safe assumption based on the sheer size of the universe.

Them coming here and just flying about for a hundred years or so? Main counterargument would be a simple "why?" Any sufficiently advanced race must have much better ways of even just 'monitoring' us beyond randomly flying around.

Just a hundred years? Perhaps throughout human history and beyond. The visible universe is 13 billion years old as far as we can tell, and there's no reason to believe aliens had to evolve in only the most recent hundred million years. I can't even begin to speculate what might motivate members of a civilization that may be any number of eons old with pretense towards accuracy. For all we know they are just amusing themselves at our expense the way toddlers like to chase ducks.

Perhaps the answer to the Fermi Paradox is not that aliens don't exist or don't communicate. It might just be that we dismiss the evidence they do give us as imlausible and discard it.

Assuming these objects are alien in origin. Perhaps they represent some unknown natural phenomenon we've never anticipated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why wouldn't UFO's abduct yokels? Are they supposed to drop into the big city unobserved so they can abduct some educated sophisticate?

Also, considering the breadth of people who have reported UFO sightings and even abductions, you are really doing them a disservice by dismissing them all as yokels. Have you read their accounts? Or do you just go by the prevailing wisdom that this is all bunk? Again, you can't study something unknown if you decide you already know what it is and don't care before you even look at it.

The 100 years was more a reference to the beginning of a larger amount of UFO sightings around the mid 20th century. So to us they seem to have been flying around randomly for a hundred years or so, possibly longer.

Natural phenomenon sounds more logical, but partly because of reasons you outline. The alien approach just feels very illogical to the human brain as it just doesn't seem to make sense. The yokel thing was a joke, but overall the level of kidnap victim does not seem to hold any specific value as far as 'research' would concern, again something seemingly illogical.
I have read a good deal of accounts, some are harder to explain but some just seem completely made up. But again, without any solid evidence or any uniform type of account its harder to believe. Based on the thousands of accounts that are out there, there isn't just a single alien race floating around earth, but dozens if not hundreds going by physical descriptions. It just gets more and more unlikely the more accounts you gather to compare. So for me personally, its more that I haven't seen a convincing case as to thinking it might never ever happen.

Steelmage99 wrote:
Sigh.

If you are referring to my post, then do yourself a favor and read up on the history of U.S. Government investigations into UFOs. Particularly, Project Grudge, the Robertson Panel, and the Condon Committee.


Their is nothing "conspiracy" about it. UFOs were a major headache and security concern (as far as Soviet espionage activities went) during the Cold War. The Air Force (and others) were concerned that public interest in UFOs could be the results of a Soviet destablization campaign designed to undermine national security, and distract U.S. intelligence/military attention from Soviet activities by tying up resources. They pointed to the 1952 UFO "flap" over Washington D.C. and the resulting public response as evidence to support their supposition. Thus, the policy of outright debunking and using respected scientists who were hostile to the idea of UFOs. Even Blue Book, the best and most in-depth study and analysis ever undertaken by the USAF, has it's critics based on the 1955 release of Project Blue Book Special Report No. 14, and the fudging of the number of actual unknowns by the Air Force.

It's also noteworthy that one of the members of the Robertson Panel, J. Allen Hynek, was later one of the biggest critics of the government's methods of dealing with the UFO phenomena.

Yes, Washington had legit concerns during the height of the Cold War, so their actions are understandable. But there is no excuse for the lack of serious studies in the present time period.

Would they really need to be dozens of different races? Or perhaps one or two with advanced cosmetic alterations/swappable bodies/bio drones whatever? We don't have enough information.

Some of the stories are definitely made up. That will always be the case. But there are so many, and they likely started because at least some people believed they had real experiences.

First thing was me remembering these two sketches...




and of course, once they do invade...

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
Sigh.

If you are referring to my post, then do yourself a favor and read up on the history of U.S. Government investigations into UFOs. Particularly, Project Grudge, the Robertson Panel, and the Condon Committee.


Their is nothing "conspiracy" about it. UFOs were a major headache and security concern (as far as Soviet espionage activities went) during the Cold War. The Air Force (and others) were concerned that public interest in UFOs could be the results of a Soviet destablization campaign designed to undermine national security, and distract U.S. intelligence/military attention from Soviet activities by tying up resources. They pointed to the 1952 UFO "flap" over Washington D.C. and the resulting public response as evidence to support their supposition. Thus, the policy of outright debunking and using respected scientists who were hostile to the idea of UFOs. Even Blue Book, the best and most in-depth study and analysis ever undertaken by the USAF, has it's critics based on the 1955 release of Project Blue Book Special Report No. 14, and the fudging of the number of actual unknowns by the Air Force.

It's also noteworthy that one of the members of the Robertson Panel, J. Allen Hynek, was later one of the biggest critics of the government's methods of dealing with the UFO phenomena.

Yes, Washington had legit concerns during the height of the Cold War, so their actions are understandable. But there is no excuse for the lack of serious studies in the present time period.

Hah, really? The funny thing is that the Soviets were thinking many of the UFO stories were made up by the US government to distract their citizens from political issues.

I'm a believer of extra-terrestrials visiting us, and that they have been visiting us for some time. Maybe even different species of them over the last thousands of years. I think some sightings or events in history are definitely legit, and I also believe there are many others that are just pranks or explained as another phenomenon. I assume they (aliens) mostly come by to observe, and once and awhile get caught. Is it possible they have abducted and experimented on us and other animals? Sure. Its not like we haven't done something similar on earth.

And you have to imagine, how much time and resources it takes mankind to just go into orbit, let alone another planet, let alone outside of our solar system, and we aren't capable of traveling to the nearest star within a lifetime. If beings from another world have developed technology that allows them to traverse the enormous distances in space, then I am sure they can just as well come up with stealthy ways to mostly remain undetected. But once and awhile they get caught (observed) which is probably due to a mistake or maybe even malfunction. Whatever their intentions, they seem to be going out of their way to not announce they are there.

I think most people out there seem to think if there was advanced life visiting us, they would make themselves known, bring gifts, etc, when in reality we are probably just one of many stops along some interstellar tour. I mean, is it a far stretch that mankind would do something similar? And if we came across some primitive race that are thousands of years behind us, would we reward and trust them with highly sophisticated technology, especially if they are as f***ed up and violent of a species as us? Hell no. So why should they?

The observable universe has some 150-250 billion galaxies. Pick an average of how many stars reside in each, and then the number of planets that might orbit each star. Its mathematically impossible for Earth to be the only planet in the universe with life.

But until we get one to show up on the evening news, this debate will never end.

Honestly its impossible to know if they would even care to share gifts or destroy all humans.

considering they have not made themselves known to all of us means they probably dont want to mess with our civ or otherwise mess with us directly

though a lack of proof doesn't mean no proof exists.

if anything a science based civ of that nature with the ability to deep space travel probably would want to not get involved in our civ and just study it from afar.

I find it interesting that proof that UFOs are real, even if not necessarily alien, takes a back seat to the latest Trump debacle.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I find it interesting that proof that UFOs are real, even if not necessarily alien, takes a back seat to the latest Trump debacle.

The media certainly seems to spend all of its time on Trump, but this is always how it goes when the government declassifies something after the fact. In 20 years they could release documents proving they were behind 9/11 and as long as the media doesn't bring it up too much, it would be met with a shrug. The U.S. government has admitted to all kinds of things it's done or covered up in the past which would have been earth-shattering revelations when they happened, but with the passage of time become non-issues to the public.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I find it interesting that proof that UFOs are real, even if not necessarily alien, takes a back seat to the latest Trump debacle.

Well, obviously when you see a UFO you see something. So it's real. The question is what is it actually. If it's a weather phenomenon or just some secret aircraft being tested, it's not really worthy of much press. Doesn't help that many people think UFO = Aliens. When it really just means Unidentified Flying Object, which could be anything really. Cause you know, it's "Unidentified". Proof that somebody saw something flying around and they didn't know what it was is not really newsworthy.

I see lights flying around in the sky at night all the time around here. I don't know what they are, so technically they are UFOs. But really they're almost certainly a low flying helicopter or airplane. Nothing newsworthy there.

 Luciferian wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I find it interesting that proof that UFOs are real, even if not necessarily alien, takes a back seat to the latest Trump debacle.

The media certainly seems to spend all of its time on Trump, but this is always how it goes when the government declassifies something after the fact. In 20 years they could release documents proving they were behind 9/11 and as long as the media doesn't bring it up too much, it would be met with a shrug. The U.S. government has admitted to all kinds of things it's done or covered up in the past which would have been earth-shattering revelations when they happened, but with the passage of time become non-issues to the public.

Such as?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I find it interesting that proof that UFOs are real, even if not necessarily alien, takes a back seat to the latest Trump debacle.

The media certainly seems to spend all of its time on Trump, but this is always how it goes when the government declassifies something after the fact. In 20 years they could release documents proving they were behind 9/11 and as long as the media doesn't bring it up too much, it would be met with a shrug. The U.S. government has admitted to all kinds of things it's done or covered up in the past which would have been earth-shattering revelations when they happened, but with the passage of time become non-issues to the public.

Such as?

The Dugway sheep incident, to name one. However, few people have heard of it or remembers it, much less gives a damn. MKULTRA is one of the most famous. It first came to public attention in 1975. But it didn't stick in the public's imagination until the 1990's with the renewed interest in conspiracy theories. The main reason why it took so long to become a household word (the last decade or so) is because most of the documents were destroyed during the Watergate panic among Federal agencies in 1973. Thus, it can never be properly investigated, since only 20,000 or so documents, uncovered in bits and pieces since 1977, don't give enough to go on except a few juicy tidbits here and there.


That is just a couple of examples.

I think a better example is COINTELPRO. If I told you in 1965 that the FBI smeared the name of a murdered woman to protect a KKK member who helped murder her because the guy was paid by the FBI to be an ultra-violent racist wack job so that the KKK would look bad/disrupt Civil Rights groups I'd be called a conspiracy nut. Hell it sounds pretty nutty right now, but that gak happened and when it eventually came out no one really carried because who cares if the FBI protected a KKK member who killed a "slutty commie who wants the black man to enslave white women" when Watergate is going on?

Seriously though you can't make up some of the gak money gets spent on.

 LordofHats wrote:
I think a better example is COINTELPRO. If I told you in 1965 that the FBI smeared the name of a murdered woman to protect a KKK member who helped murder her because the guy was paid by the FBI to be an ultra-violent racist wack job so that the KKK would look bad/disrupt Civil Rights groups I'd be called a conspiracy nut. Hell it sounds pretty nutty right now, but that gak happened and when it eventually came out no one really carried because who cares if the FBI protected a KKK member who killed a "slutty commie who wants the black man to enslave white women" when Watergate is going on?

Seriously though you can't make up some of the gak money gets spent on.

It's not nutty at all. In the late 80's and during the 1990's, that crap was still going on. The difference is that the white separatists/supremacists got good a playing "Pick Out The FBI Agent" at gatherings/events. The actual paid informants were a little more circumspect.It was one of these working for the BATF that set the ball rolling that led to the Ruby Ridge standoff.


As for covering for informants, that is common with snitches feeding law enforcement intel on the local drug trade. The department I used to work for caught flak from neighboring agencies for burning their snitches on non-drug related crap. And the little pricks were arrogant, assuming that they were untouchable by police across the County because they were rats for the law.

I think the thing that pushes it to nutty is both the way the informant was employed and how the FBI chose to try and protect him. That kind of stuff wouldn't fly today, which isn't to say shady stuff still doesn't happen but the FBI definitely use to be a lot more wacky than it is today with how it approached "potentially dangerous" groups.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

As for covering for informants, that is common with snitches feeding law enforcement intel on the local drug trade. The department I used to work for caught flak from neighboring agencies for burning their snitches on non-drug related crap. And the little pricks were arrogant, assuming that they were untouchable by police across the County because they were rats for the law.

I can't imagine why fingering their snitches might irritate them. It was, after all, how Youngstown police used to murder people who snitched to the Feds. When they finally tripped up, the entire department was charged, along with every member of the local sheriffs department, most of the judges, and the Congressman. Law enforcement was so corrupt they had to try the cases in Cleveland. Too bad the Sheriff was taking bribes on camera, and the brains of the mob got blown out all over the place by morons like Strollo.

LordofHats wrote:I think the thing that pushes it to nutty is both the way the informant was employed and how the FBI chose to try and protect him. That kind of stuff wouldn't fly today, which isn't to say shady stuff still doesn't happen but the FBI definitely use to be a lot more wacky than it is today with how it approached "potentially dangerous" groups.

Oh, absolutely.


Case in point: J. Edgar and his collection of dirt on everybody and everything that rubbed him the wrong way.

BaronIveagh wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

As for covering for informants, that is common with snitches feeding law enforcement intel on the local drug trade. The department I used to work for caught flak from neighboring agencies for burning their snitches on non-drug related crap. And the little pricks were arrogant, assuming that they were untouchable by police across the County because they were rats for the law.

I can't imagine why fingering their snitches might irritate them. It was, after all, how Youngstown police used to murder people who snitched to the Feds. When they finally tripped up, the entire department was charged, along with every member of the local sheriffs department, most of the judges, and the Congressman. Law enforcement was so corrupt they had to try the cases in Cleveland. Too bad the Sheriff was taking bribes on camera, and the brains of the mob got blown out all over the place by morons like Strollo.

Snitches made their jobs a little easier (the reliable ones, that is). Drug busts meant more State and Federal money for their agencies. Of course, we didn't care when their pet rats stirred up in our jurisdiction.


That's one problem I have with the way the War on Drugs has been waged for the last forty years. It's gone from enforcing the drug laws to a revenue raising tool for smaller law enforcement agencies, or larger ones run by misers in the local government. I don't agree with that.

It’s it not much more plausible that is was a drone aircraft of us or Russian or Chinese design?

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
Sigh.

If you are referring to my post, then do yourself a favor and read up on the history of U.S. Government investigations into UFOs. Particularly, Project Grudge, the Robertson Panel, and the Condon Committee.


Their is nothing "conspiracy" about it. UFOs were a major headache and security concern (as far as Soviet espionage activities went) during the Cold War. The Air Force (and others) were concerned that public interest in UFOs could be the results of a Soviet destablization campaign designed to undermine national security, and distract U.S. intelligence/military attention from Soviet activities by tying up resources. They pointed to the 1952 UFO "flap" over Washington D.C. and the resulting public response as evidence to support their supposition. Thus, the policy of outright debunking and using respected scientists who were hostile to the idea of UFOs. Even Blue Book, the best and most in-depth study and analysis ever undertaken by the USAF, has it's critics based on the 1955 release of Project Blue Book Special Report No. 14, and the fudging of the number of actual unknowns by the Air Force.

It's also noteworthy that one of the members of the Robertson Panel, J. Allen Hynek, was later one of the biggest critics of the government's methods of dealing with the UFO phenomena.

Yes, Washington had legit concerns during the height of the Cold War, so their actions are understandable. But there is no excuse for the lack of serious studies in the present time period.

Just waking up and at a glance, I thought you had written "Condom committee"!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
I think a better example is COINTELPRO. If I told you in 1965 that the FBI smeared the name of a murdered woman to protect a KKK member who helped murder her because the guy was paid by the FBI to be an ultra-violent racist wack job so that the KKK would look bad/disrupt Civil Rights groups I'd be called a conspiracy nut. Hell it sounds pretty nutty right now, but that gak happened and when it eventually came out no one really carried because who cares if the FBI protected a KKK member who killed a "slutty commie who wants the black man to enslave white women" when Watergate is going on?

Seriously though you can't make up some of the gak money gets spent on.

It's not nutty at all. In the late 80's and during the 1990's, that crap was still going on. The difference is that the white separatists/supremacists got good a playing "Pick Out The FBI Agent" at gatherings/events. The actual paid informants were a little more circumspect.It was one of these working for the BATF that set the ball rolling that led to the Ruby Ridge standoff.


As for covering for informants, that is common with snitches feeding law enforcement intel on the local drug trade. The department I used to work for caught flak from neighboring agencies for burning their snitches on non-drug related crap. And the little pricks were arrogant, assuming that they were untouchable by police across the County because they were rats for the law.

And what a wonderful thing for the government Ruby Ridge turned out to be.

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
It’s it not much more plausible that is was a drone aircraft of us or Russian or Chinese design?

Unless someone has discovered a new super-material or invented Inertial dampeners, it's unlikely. The maneuvers and speeds it took them at would exceed the stress limits of pretty much anything I can think of.

Surely that’s the point tho - secret military tech it not something we can think of. It’s new. It’s secret. It’s not automatically aliens.

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
Surely that’s the point tho - secret military tech it not something we can think of. It’s new. It’s secret. It’s not automatically aliens.

We don't know what it was, that's what the U is about in UFO. That said, however, if they had the tech to build this, then the US wouldn't be talking about Trump right now, but rather our new Russian or Chinese overlords. Since this would be like having a nuclear weapon during the Roman Empire.

Not really they managed to film it and follow it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus ufo does not equal aliens but you wouldn’t get that reading this thread - anyway it’s more likely to be US craft with the money they spend on this stuff than an enemy craft or maybe just a made up event just meant to gauge public reaction.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
Surely that’s the point tho - secret military tech it not something we can think of. It’s new. It’s secret. It’s not automatically aliens.

We don't know what it was, that's what the U is about in UFO. That said, however, if they had the tech to build this, then the US wouldn't be talking about Trump right now, but rather our new Russian or Chinese overlords. Since this would be like having a nuclear weapon during the Roman Empire.

Assuming said tech also provided immunity to nukes which it might not. Even if your aircraft would be able to do manouver US planes can't doesn't mean russia wouldn't get obliterated by nukes.

tneva82 wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
Surely that’s the point tho - secret military tech it not something we can think of. It’s new. It’s secret. It’s not automatically aliens.

We don't know what it was, that's what the U is about in UFO. That said, however, if they had the tech to build this, then the US wouldn't be talking about Trump right now, but rather our new Russian or Chinese overlords. Since this would be like having a nuclear weapon during the Roman Empire.

Assuming said tech also provided immunity to nukes which it might not. Even if your aircraft would be able to do manouver US planes can't doesn't mean russia wouldn't get obliterated by nukes.

And also assuming that the tech can be mass-produced. Prototypes are prototypes for a reason.

Yeah. The video has some pretty freaky stuff, but it's not so freaky that missiles suddenly become unable to track it or anything.

It's less like having a nuclear weapon during the Roman Empire, and more like having scythe chariots during the Roman Empire. It's a thing, and it'd be powerful, but not really an 'out of context' problem or anything like some people seem to be implying.