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 Marmatag wrote:
How on earth are you complaining about 9 heavy venom cannon Carnifex?

For the same points in Eldar you could put down 30 dark reapers, 6 tempest launchers.

9d3 dice ~ 18 shots at 36".
versus
30 shots at 48", with the additional 12d6 shots not requiring LOS. Or maybe just 60 strength 5, -2, 2 damage shots?

I mean honestly man. 9 Carnifexes is not a good army, especially if you put freaking HVC on them. lol. That sounds like something tailored to fight marines, and would get riggidy wrecked in this meta.

HVC Fex is going to have 2 deathspitters also. Not saying 9 HVC fex is a good army but it is a very efficient "tank". Dark reapers on the other hand cost less than a space marine with a missle launcher and probably should cost 50% more than a space marine with a missile launcher for all their bonuses.

Tyranids are just fine in 8th edition. Every game I've played against them has been hard fought and tactical. There's also a variety of playing styles, the Carnifex spam is not the only army variant that can win.

Sorry, deathspitters. I don't know the Tyranid nomenclature well. I just know they make my army disappear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Tyranids are just fine in 8th edition. Every game I've played against them has been hard fought and tactical. There's also a variety of playing styles, the Carnifex spam is not the only army variant that can win.

How are they just not rolling you like a chump? What are their weaknesses? I can't find any. It seems everything they have is undercosted.

Martel732 wrote:
If you think that carnifex is fair at 126, I don't know what to tell you. It gets raven guard chapter tactics AND a hive fleet adaptation. Heavy venom cannon gets no penalty for moving, unlike the dreadnought as well.

Also, the dakkafex is rocking the twin devourer, not the talons. I don't know what that does to its cost. Probably way too cheap, still.

The twin Deathspitters with Maggots comes to the same cost, 126. And yes I think it's fine. The Dread gets an additional -1 Save mod, and averages more wounds with each weapon. Dread can also have Raven Guard Tactics should it desire, and access to Character re-roll buffs.

A Razorback with Twin Las costs 120.

To me, it plays like a 150 pt model. I guess we'll see if it survives this calendar year unnerfed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
How on earth are you complaining about 9 heavy venom cannon Carnifex?

For the same points in Eldar you could put down 30 dark reapers, 6 tempest launchers.

9d3 dice ~ 18 shots at 36".
versus
30 shots at 48", with the additional 12d6 shots not requiring LOS. Or maybe just 60 strength 5, -2, 2 damage shots?

I mean honestly man. 9 Carnifexes is not a good army, especially if you put freaking HVC on them. lol. That sounds like something tailored to fight marines, and would get riggidy wrecked in this meta.

HVC Fex is going to have 2 deathspitters also. Not saying 9 HVC fex is a good army but it is a very efficient "tank". Dark reapers on the other hand cost less than a space marine with a missle launcher and probably should cost 50% more than a space marine with a missile launcher for all their bonuses.

I agree on that point, Dark Reapers are far too good for their cost.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Pretty good, flyrants got even better this edition so.

That's quite the statement, are you sure you remember what flyrants were in 7th? Str6 killing vehicles, torax weapons, hit on 6s... Sure, they got a couple of nice things, but in 7th they singlehandedly carried what was the worst codex of the game to the top tables.

Martel732 wrote:
To me, it plays like a 150 pt model. I guess we'll see if it survives this calendar year unnerfed.

Well I am almost certain that the 4x Dev version will be nerfed. 24 shots str 6 for 115 points is outrageously good. I mean...eldar don't even do that. Plus it averages more damage than twin assault cannons buffed by guilliman against everything but a 2+ save. The gun probably needs to be dropped to 8 shots from 12. It would also nerf the hive tyrant in the process which also uses this weapon.

Dreads in general just need help - they need to be able to move and shoot with no penalty - they aren't supposed to be statues sitting in the back.

Definitely top tier. There are lots of different choices for types of list, shooty, melee, Nidzilla, swarm, psyker spam, etc....

Also Nids have really good stratagems, some of the best IMO.

Spoletta wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Pretty good, flyrants got even better this edition so.

That's quite the statement, are you sure you remember what flyrants were in 7th? Str6 killing vehicles, torax weapons, hit on 6s... Sure, they got a couple of nice things, but in 7th they singlehandedly carried what was the worst codex of the game to the top tables.

They would pretty much do the same thing in this edition if you spammed them. You could fit 10 FHT in 2 supreme commands in kraken. Each being able to fallback from assault and shoot and charge. I don't think anyone has 10 flying hive tyrants ready for a big event BUT I'm sure we will see it at some point and it should do pretty well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
To me, it plays like a 150 pt model. I guess we'll see if it survives this calendar year unnerfed.

Well I am almost certain that the 4x Dev version will be nerfed. 24 shots str 6 for 115 points is outrageously good. I mean...eldar don't even do that. Plus it averages more damage than twin assault cannons buffed by guilliman against everything but a 2+ save. The gun probably needs to be dropped to 8 shots from 12. It would also nerf the hive tyrant in the process which also uses this weapon.

Dreads in general just need help - they need to be able to move and shoot with no penalty - they aren't supposed to be statues sitting in the back.

I don't think anything Tyranids will be nerfed. Tyranids are not on the same level as Eldar, AM, and Chaos.

Devourers are decent, but they only look good because all of the other options are fairly bad. Remember, Tyranids don't really get rerolls...

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
To me, it plays like a 150 pt model. I guess we'll see if it survives this calendar year unnerfed.

Well I am almost certain that the 4x Dev version will be nerfed. 24 shots str 6 for 115 points is outrageously good. I mean...eldar don't even do that. Plus it averages more damage than twin assault cannons buffed by guilliman against everything but a 2+ save. The gun probably needs to be dropped to 8 shots from 12. It would also nerf the hive tyrant in the process which also uses this weapon.

Dreads in general just need help - they need to be able to move and shoot with no penalty - they aren't supposed to be statues sitting in the back.

I don't think anything Tyranids will be nerfed. Tyranids are not on the same level as Eldar, AM, and Chaos.

Devourers are decent, but they only look good because all of the other options are fairly bad. Remember, Tyranids don't really get rerolls...

They don't need them. They have a codex of undercosted units. Just like IG.

The big difference between Tyranids and other armies is that even if Tyranids are powerfull their wins are earned. I agree with what others have said, they are in a very good, and playing agaisn't tyranids is one of the most tactical games you can have in 8th edition.

It has nothing to do with facing a Guilliman parking lot or a IG gunline.

Martel732 wrote:

They don't need them. They have a codex of undercosted units. Just like IG.

I wouldn't say so, all of Tyranid's MC look scary and they can do a fair bit of damage but their lack of invulnerable saves mean they're mince meat against dedicated anti-tank weapons. Their troops are pretty good but they are restricted in movement by having to stay within synapse range and when Nid troops spread out to take objectives, it makes it much easier to assassinate synapse creatures.

Comparing them to guard isn't fair since all guard have to do is set up their gunline and their chaff anti-deepstrike, anti-charge units and they're set.

I don't know if I'd call Nid wins "earned" with their current codex. I guess we'll see how it shakes out. Nids have a much better record in my area than Bobby G now.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

They don't need them. They have a codex of undercosted units. Just like IG.

I wouldn't say so, all of Tyranid's MC look scary and they can do a fair bit of damage but their lack of invulnerable saves mean they're mince meat against dedicated anti-tank weapons. Their troops are pretty good but they are restricted in movement by having to stay within synapse range and when Nid troops spread out to take objectives, it makes it much easier to assassinate synapse creatures.

Comparing them to guard isn't fair since all guard have to do is set up their gunline and their chaff anti-deepstrike, anti-charge units and they're set.

Well. If you are only fielding tacticals with missile launchers&flamers then the nid monsters are probably lot scarier!

The -1 to hit stacked on top of free cover is really obnoxious.

A 18" range dedicated ranged model that takes more than 2 fighting phases to kill 1 MEQ is best served in melee. I'm not surprised that you are having problems firing at something that takes an anti-shooting upgrade and uses an hyve fleet adaptation for additional anti-shooting. It's a short ranged model that does nothing in melee, play accordingly.

I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Could post me one of those lists?

The current tyranids are the perfect example of how a top tier army should be. Lots of options, different viable lists, nothing overpowered.

I think nothing about them should be nerfed, they're not even remotely as annoying and broken as AM.

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Martel is just a big negative nancy. Everything always beats his Blood Angels and he's always sore about how everything is always op against BA.

Nids might have the best dex right now but it's not because of OP cheap units. It's because it has FANTASTIC internal balance. There are so few options that have no place. Just about anything will work in a list built to work with it.

As others have noted all these options means you need skill to make it work. Both in understanding how to build and refine your list and how to get it onto the table doing what it needs to do. It takes a lot of understanding to make it really shine on the table and you need to keep up to maximize it's effectiveness. If you slip up the enemy can kick your legs out from under you.

A bad player can have a GREAT nid list and completely fail all his matches.

A bad player can have a GREAT IG list and still be a real uphill battle for his opponents.

Nids have no fire and forget "dummy" tactics. Positioning, distractions, target priority, a real understanding of the pile in mechanics and how to maximize them... You need to really understand these to function.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Neurothropes kind of solve that problem. Anyone going heavy carnifex is going to have a Nuerothrope babysitting.

I dont know. I have no problems melting screens with an agressor+Azrael blob of death, or assault bolter inceptors, or a twin asscanon razorback loaded with company veterans with SB and Chainswords, and then chargin those carnifexs in meele with any pseudo usefull unit. Those dakkafex are horrible in mele, even a Squad of 5reivers with knives can do work against them. Or some bikers, or a single company champion.

 mrhappyface wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Post codex: Absolutely top tier...but not for free, you're still gonna have to earn your wins.

^This.

I've played against Tyranids this edition and those have been the most tactical, hard fought games I've ever played (I've lost against IG as well but those were not skilled victories on behalf of the Guard player, kind of like the token victories of Eldar in 7th), the only reason I won my most recent game against Nids was because my opponent made a game changing tactical error; but up until that point it was anyone's game.

From what I've experienced, Tyranids are THE best faction in 8th as far as rules go; they have potential to make tough lists but there are no go to lists; they have potential to stand up against any list but still require skill to pull a victory; and they offer so many different styles of play that can be mixed and matched and no gamestyle is better than the others.

And this comment is why I think 8th is the best edition so far despite any diminishing flaws.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Neurothropes kind of solve that problem. Anyone going heavy carnifex is going to have a Nuerothrope babysitting.

That works only if those fexes are blobbish, which makes using the deathspitters a bit hard and 9 HVC alone are not a good investement of 60% of your army. Sure, they easily take down one vehicle each turn at range 36", but that's hardly game breaking.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Neurothropes kind of solve that problem. Anyone going heavy carnifex is going to have a Nuerothrope babysitting.

Which are 70pts spent to do nothing but hold the line and maybe get mulched if an enemy model scrapes against it.

And as for the actual carnifexes, you can get 8 for about 1000pts they do an average of 4 shots each at BS4+, that's around 18 hits, 12 wounds against T7/8 tanks, 8 wounds go through on 3+ models for a total of 24dmg: that's 2 small tanks gone or 1 big one. For the same points you could get 21 missile launchers, 14 hit, 9 wound, 8 go through and 28dmg is caused: that's 3 Carnies dead. And that's without the plethora of re-rolls SM has access to.

They aren't OP; they're a great access to some good anti-tank weapons on a unit that can't stand up to dedicated anti-tank fire.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have to try to get the heavy venom cannons off the board.

Can't melee them. Nids can somehow buy 9 carnifexes and still have plenty of screens. As I said, undercosted units everywhere.

Of course the carnies lack synapse which makes those screens next to useless.

Neurothropes kind of solve that problem. Anyone going heavy carnifex is going to have a Nuerothrope babysitting.

Which are 70pts spent to do nothing but hold the line and maybe get mulched if an enemy model scrapes against it.

And as for the actual carnifexes, you can get 8 for about 1000pts they do an average of 4 shots each at BS4+, that's around 18 hits, 12 wounds against T7/8 tanks, 8 wounds go through on 3+ models for a total of 24dmg: that's 2 small tanks gone or 1 big one. For the same points you could get 21 missile launchers, 14 hit, 9 wound, 8 go through and 28dmg is caused: that's 3 Carnies dead. And that's without the plethora of re-rolls SM has access to.

They aren't OP; they're a great access to some good anti-tank weapons on a unit that can't stand up to dedicated anti-tank fire.

No, they do an average of 2 shots each (cannot equip double cannon), for a total of 12 damage.

Spoletta wrote:
No, they do an average of 2 shots each (cannot equip double cannon), for a total of 12 damage.

So they gain two more Carnies and lose 16 shots. That's 20 base, 10 hit, 7 wound, 5 go through and 10dmg is done: only 1 small tank (unless it's one of the small tanks with 11/12 wounds).

Carnies are no where near OP.